Someone needs to start a masculinism movement

[joft]

Last semester one of the topics my english class covered was feminism. I'm a pretty empathetic guy, I could understand the points each author had to make about each aspect, etc. I'm very progressive, I'm all for fixing the problems in society caused by cultural lag or whatever else. But I think we've gone about it the wrong way almost every time that we've done it.

To me it seems every group of people has been liberated in our society except for one, white men. Supposedly we're the only ones who never needed to be liberated, because supposedly we're the richest and all that. But money (which I don't have) isn't everything. Well, I don't really have anything to say about being white, other than that I would be about 10 times cooler if I wasn't, but as far as being male, now that's an issue.

Anyway, I don't really care about any of this, but it's hard for me to not notice it either. It's like our society is refusing to say something like "women are more passive" but more than willing to point out how obvious it is that "men are more aggressive." Some places have 2 restrooms, 1 for women, and 1 unisex. The choice of trusting the other sex is only allowed to women.

Every time I went to class I walked past the "Women's Center" of my college. Sometimes I would think, "Where is the Men's Center?" Of course the answer was that there wasn't one, men don't need a center, duh! Only women need a center. The other day I was thinking about starting to take yoga at some local place if there was one, because I'm too unmotivated/forgetful/distracted to do my own routine without a scheduled class to attend for it. So I searched for local yoga places and found one... but, oops, silly me, that's a fitness center for women only.

Aside from real logistical issues like pregnancy and (optional/shared/whatever) child rearing, why are men expected to be the mandatory financial supporter? There really is a huge pressure on men to perform in this area. I understand the reasons why things are this way, wealth is associated with the security and protection that a woman would look for in a mate, as women haven't been expected to work in the past. Now most women are working anyway, most have to because our economy has already adjusted to requiring the additional money a family can make because of it.

Why isn't it illegal for men to show their naked chests in public? We should either require shirts on everyone or make them optional for everyone.

So, I want to start a masculinism movement. But, of course, I'm an INTP. So someone else should start one. Then I could consider myself a maculinist, but I wouldn't actually join or anything. The concept would probably get abused, society would over-compensate as always, and just cause another problem. Like, maybe we'd start having robots raise our children, then children would start a youth movement, damn.

If anyone does start a masculinism movement though, it better not be about macho bullshit or I won't fucking join. I don't give a shit about football (soccer for those of you not in the US), and I hate the man show. That's probably exactly the type of shit that would happen if a masculinism movement started too; and then like 40% more women would become lesbians out of sheer disgust. I suppose I could then join the transgendered movement and become a lesbian with the help of an operation... You know, I don't see what's so wrong about being antisocial. Society sucks.

(Notice: My real opinion on any and all of these issues is that none of them should be issues at all. I wish all humans could have equal respect and preference and so on for all other humans, that there were no distinctions at all. So please don't take offense at anything I say, it is meant sarcastically as picking on the system, not the people that the system oppresses)

[Shai Gar]

RIGHT ON.

[Serotonin]

why are men expected to be the mandatory financial supporter? There really is a huge pressure on men to perform in this area.
Ignore the pressure. Say to yourself "I work for me, and me only". Just like the Revlon ad "Cause you're worth it". (As an aside, popular media/advertising doesn't seem to have any self-esteem building catchphrases or themes for men, outside a very limited "macho" image, whereas for women....)
A lot of women will say "no, the man doesn't necessarily have to be the breadwinner, i can work and he can stay at home being domesticated", yet I'll bet they harbour a silent contempt for men who would actually not mind not being the breadwinner. There's something more primal and attractive about an independent, self-supporting man.
Solution for my brethren? Stay single until you absolutely positively have found the right lady to share your life. Be frugal, look after your own needs first. Be self-reliant, and your confidence will grow, and becoming able to support a family will seem like the most natural thing on earth.

[daughterofeve]

Hmm.. I'm not a fan of the feminist movement, and i certainly see where you're coming from.. but i don't think the the 'masculine movement' would get anywhere at all.

[matthew0028]

Amen my brotha!

:D

[Boneca]

I have this feeling that I should be upset about this, but I actually agree. Feminism, as necessary as it once was, is ridiculous when it goes too far.

But curing one ridiculous movement with an even more ridiculous opposing movement is an idea that would only verify the known fact that "men are stupid". ;)

[joft]

i don't think the the 'masculine movement' would get anywhere at all.
But curing one ridiculous movement with an even more ridiculous opposing movement is an idea that would only verify the known fact that "men are stupid". ;) See! This is exactly what I'm talking about.

[floyd]

there was/is a mens movement... i think they even have newsgroups dedicated to it. i think it's loaded with angry divorced men who feel they were robbed by the legal system of custody and money (but i am not sure if that is what started those groups). personally i tend to think groups based on gender or ethnicity are primitive and take away from the importance of individualism.

"There's something more primal and attractive about an independent, self-supporting man."

do you think there is something more primal and attractive about a dependent, non self supporting woman?

[Serotonin]

do you think there is something more primal and attractive about a dependent, non self supporting woman?
Good question. No, not really. Hmmm, intellectually definitely NOT. But that whole "damsel in distress" thing will always arouse a man's saviour instincts, including, regrettably, mine. It's not financial hardship and deprivation that I find attractive in women, more emotional hardship. I often romanticise about saving a woman from her loneliness and depression (provided she doesn't get snappy "I can look after my own problems, thank you very much!"), but whether this will actually happen I can't say.

[daughterofeve]

do you think there is something more primal and attractive about a dependent, non self supporting woman?
Primal? ..I would be extremely offended if someone labeled me as primal
Women and men are different.. equal but uneven.. men are masculine, women are feminine. Women who try to be masculine just turn into really agressive women. Men who try to be feminine just look silly.


See! This is exactly what I'm talking about.
No.. I'm not against it at all.. i just think it wouldn't fare so well with other people.

[mgb]

I have thought about that before as well. But it can get carried away.

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-70-398-2235/disasters_tragedies/montreal_massacre/clip1

I think there will eventually be a balance in society between men and women, just not right now. Since the feminist movement I think things have begun to swing the other way (not all things of course, wage disparity still exists and things like that). So it isn't something that I worry about. It sucks you can't go everywhere for yoga, but you can use the extra money you make on the gas for somewhere a little further away.

About your soccer/football comment, I don't understand. Don't they call soccer football outside of the US? Do you mean American Football to be gridiron and soccer to be football?

[Shai Gar]

should we have straight marches, just to say we are out and we are proud to put dicks in cunts?

we could wear whatever we wanted and mime fucking while going down the main streets of our major cities

[joft]

Why don't women give men a diamond ring and propose to them to get married instead of the other way around?

[mgb]

Why don't women give men a diamond ring and propose to them to get married instead of the other way around?

You tell that to your next girlfriend and see how long she sticks around.

It's about the drama in that situation. Are you going to get a nervous and weepy if she gives you a ring? Are you going to hold out your hand to all you friends and show off your diamond? Probably not.

Not all girls will, but most will enjoy the whole thing more than guys would.

[Shai Gar]

exactly, see how long she sticks around. proves jofts point

[mgb]

Yes, proposing is a gender role. Is that ok, depends on the girl I suppose. But, we live in a world with gender roles. You can get mad about it or live with it. To be honest I would rather be a white male than a black woman (just an example, could be any ehtnicity), I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

[joft]

You tell that to your next girlfriend and see how long she sticks around. That's exactly my point, man!

You gotta love how the symbol of marriage is a completely useless yet extremely expensive item. It really is a throwback to bridewealth. I'll give your family 15 cows in exchange for your daughter...

My point in this thread isn't that men (or white men, or heterosexual white men) have a disproportionate amount of hardships in life or something like that. We probably have less than everyone else or something. Or just different kinds of hardships which aren't as bad. But now, everyone else now has the benefits of all these organizations and foundations, scholarships, studies, centers, etc, and we don't. Nobody really knows or thinks about the problems with men and boys, yet we commit like 80% of the crime; but that's just natural as we're more aggressive, right? I don't mean this literally, I know some people have done studies and writings about it, but nobody listens to them or makes anything of it. Just to use a specific example, I really would like to have a "Men's Center" or something at my school, where we could go and study the various pressures of society on men. And be more at peace about it by at least knowing that people recognize the problems and we're moving on from them. Maybe they could combine them and call it a "Gender Studies Center," but then there'd probably be some women complaining about men "hitting on" them or something because men are the root of all evil!



As for the soccer/football thing. I'm under the impression that what we call "football" in the US is called "soccer" everywhere else, and vice versa.

[mgb]

As for the soccer/football thing. I'm under the impression that what we call "football" in the US is called "soccer" everywhere else, and vice versa.

Nope, they call soccer football everwhere else. American football is called grid iron.

Actually the burden of marriage has always fallen on the family of the girl. It was always I'll give you 15 cows if my daughter can marry your son.

The ring is almost a more romantic modern gesture and bucks the trend of arranged marriages and I find empowers the woman, which isn't a bad thing at all. Unfortunately, as the thread suggests, empowering women usually comes at the expense of men. But as I guy I look at this way, the more stuff my parents would get for the bride, the uglier she probably is. At least the guy and the girl get to pick each other now.

[Vagabond]

As for the soccer/football thing. I'm under the impression that what we call "football" in the US is called "soccer" everywhere else, and vice versa. What you call "soccer" in the US is called "football" elsewhere, and what you call "football" is called "american football". In these parts of the world at least.

Oh, and you'd have to wear that diamond ring around all the time if the tables were turnt around. Heheh.

Edit: Bleh, mgbradsh beat me to it... :huh:

[Shai Gar]

i wouldnt mind wearing a diamond ring around everywhere. i suspect the police might though.

[joft]

Ok to take this further and be more specific, here is the exact deal with me:

I have a resentment toward gender roles because it puts me at a disadvantage in finding a girlfriend in a bunch of different ways. And I'll say in advance, no offense to the people who are comfortable in their respective gender roles, this only applies to me.

I don't fit the male gender role; for instance, I don't give a shit about sports or cars. Also, I am by nature not assertive, at all. My INTJ friend is always bugging me telling me I need to be assertive, but I can't and won't. It's completely neanderthal to me. I'm not at all interested in being the "dominant male," and I find it upsetting that this is apparently still the norm. I'm a nice guy, I'm doomed to finish last. I'm doomed to be the type of a guy that a girl I'm trying to get to know will become friends with and then never be able to be anything more than a friend.

Because of gender roles my chances of finding someone are much much smaller. Also, my parents got divorced when I was about 13, and I'm very socially inexperienced to begin with (having been homeschooled since I was 9). These things aren't the direct fault of gender roles, but because of gender roles they're a much bigger problem than they would have been. Combine that stuff with my INTP's underdeveloped Fe, and I come across as an emotionally needy guy, which is a big turn off for women in their gender role.

Those are just the things which directly apply to me, I find a myriad of other things offensive about gender roles too. I know there's nothing I can really do beside deal with it, and that's what I do. But it still sucks. When you force yourself to act some way that you're not, you're likely to attract people who you don't really want to be with; they're attracted to the show you're putting on and not the real you.

[Shai Gar]

i wouldnt mind wearing a diamond ring around everywhere. i suspect the police might though. i would want a big dozy ring with lots of diamonds spread out so it makes a fair bit of damnage when i hit something though

[mgb]

Joft, maybe you need to start hanging out in the women's center.

Seriously though. Gender roles aren't your problem, confidence is. Not assertiveness, confidence. You, not other people, you need to be ok with who you are. When you can do that, all the other stuff won't bother you.

[Shai Gar]

I'm doomed to be the type of a guy that a girl I'm trying to get to know will become friends with and then never be able to be anything more than a friend.
i got this vibe off of you almost immediately. maybe it is the name joft and the plump yellow rat in mexican clothing that did it.

that can change with time

[floyd]

/Women who try to be masculine just turn into really agressive women. Men who try to be feminine just look silly./

so do you think aggressive women are defective?

[matthew0028]

Or silly looking men for that matter?

[EdwinJefferson]

Poor Joft. I sadly agree with him. Couldn't really care about what weights you can lift, what car you drive, discussing females as if they were just objects for sex.. the list goes on what I've heard from males (young and old).

I've impersonated females in chatrooms (I was AnnCoulter in a UK chatroom.. with her photo), and the crap they get from males is horrific. How many times I got asked if I wanted to see someones cock on cam.. how many times I replied I have no interest in roosters or other farm animals.. beyond belief. Perhaps it was just that chatroom, but I doubt it.

I am reduced to believing I'll end up alone because females seem to like the assertive nature of males. It isn't confidence, as like joft said, males who aren't assertive and 'I want to have sex with you' from the start tend to be seen as 'different'.

Females don't like submissive men, and prefer stereotypes.

If they did, there would be no emo.

[joft]

Seriously though. Gender roles aren't your problem, confidence is. Not assertiveness, confidence. You, not other people, you need to be ok with who you are. When you can do that, all the other stuff won't bother you. Well, I see what you mean, maybe I could use a little bit more confidence. But I don't really ever run into a problem because of that, it's moreso my introversion that takes its effect on me. And I have no problem with who I am, I think this way is logically the more evolved form of human interaction; being less affected by that "primal" nature or whatever you want to call it. When it comes down to it, I think I'm just allowing a much more selective process to occur, and avoiding a bunch of would-have failed relationships.

floyd caught the idea; whether a woman is submissive or more aggressive that is just attributed to "different strokes for different folks," and some men are turned on by the idea of a "harder conquest" or whatever. But I'm not even submissive, I'm neither nor, I'm just passive. But this is still seen as a lack on my part. Even my ultra-liberal anthropology professor explained this issue (when covering homosexuality and transgender) as a scale of masculinity to femininity rather than 2 distinct and even genders. So apparently I'm less masculine and more feminine then most men. But that's bullshit anyway because the traits attributed to "masculinity" are determined by the same thing that said there were only 2 genders; our culture. Why should one be relative then and not the other? To be honest, I don't really care about any of the words or ideals or how culturally relative or biological they are; I'm just me.

I think it may be lucky that I'm kind of bitter about it, because my sarcasm and cynical outlook make me appear to be very uninterested. And this is apparently what girls like... If I appear to be interested then I must be desperate. But see, only girls are allowed to be desperate, and the more desperate they are the more likely it is that they should just be abused and taken advantage of for it. Same for guys, except in this case it just means being a friend and a shoulder to cry on and complain about their asshole boyfriends.

[booyalab]

i got this vibe off of you almost immediately. maybe it is the name joft and the plump yellow rat in mexican clothing that did it.

that can change with time

IT'S NOT A RAT! IT'S GANDALF THE PEEP!

[booyalab]

I also agree that the feminist movement is turning into a bad, self-patronizing idea.......but we already had a masculine movement, its called every single goddamn second (edit: in western civilization) prior to the feminist movement. You guys are too late.

[crule81]

How can everyone forget the greatest fictional male movement ever? "NO MA'AM" from "Married with Children." Al Bundy was clearly on the cutting edge.

[Biff_Loman]

I often romanticise about saving a woman from her loneliness and depression (provided she doesn't get snappy "I can look after my own problems, thank you very much!"), but whether this will actually happen I can't say.

I used to fantasize about that, too, until I married a woman who tends towards depression and natural self-isolation.

As an INTP, I highly doubt you have the relational virtuosity necessary to really improve her life.

[Biff_Loman]

Joft, when it comes to finding a woman:

F*ck the anthropologists and socio-biology. Yes, yes: aggressive hunter-gatherer male hits rival over head with club and takes woman. Woman does not display ovulation visually, allowing her to discreetly become impregnated by other males, etc. Great, wonderful: so we've figured out the origins of our "gender spectrum" and why we enjoy certain genes while others were abandoned to the dustbin of natural history.

All of this can only reveal trends. Don't get discouraged. Just look at all the studies that show "70% of men" do this or that, or "80% of women" are this way or that. Whoa! There is usually a significant minority that bucks the trend.

Mgbradsh is right about confidence. It's true, the lame little slogan that the three Cs are the most important thing in life: confidence, confidence, and confidence. Share what's unique about you, and someone will be attracted.

I'm eccentric, I'll grant you that, but I let my eccentricism be known. As an INTP, your take on the world will seem delightfully off-beat to many people. I met someone at a gathering at a restaurant a couple months ago. Last night, I saw her at the same resaurant, having never seen her in the interim. I said hi, and mentioned "You know, I have no evidence that you exist outside this place."

Social training? Ah, waste of time. Just have a friendly attitude. I mean: just be generous and kind-hearted towards people and treat them decently.

The INTPs I know in real life are all - ALL! - hopeless when it comes to the opposite sex because they are too cautious, and more interested in being polite than anything. Bah!

[booyalab]

The INTPs I know in real life are all - ALL! - hopeless when it comes to the opposite sex because they are too cautious, and more interested in being polite than anything. Bah!

well, I guess technically you don't know me...

[joft]

we already had a masculine movement, its called every single goddamn second (edit: in western civilization) prior to the feminist movement. Not being able to vote and being considered weak and image-oriented and expected to be a housewife certainly are not anything I would have wanted. But being sent off to kill each other in wars at the age of 16, or being required to pretty much work yourself to death by the age of 50, aren't exactly great things either. As I said before, my point isn't who had it worse, and I think we probably had it the easiest for most of the time. But now everyone else has been "liberated," and we're just still the same old over-privileged, over-represented, over-powerful majority which no one should think to consider might have some deep rooted problems too.

[booyalab]

Not being able to vote and being considered weak and image-oriented and expected to be a housewife certainly are not anything I would have wanted. But being sent off to kill each other in wars at the age of 16, or being required to pretty much work yourself to death by the age of 50, aren't exactly great things either. As I said before, my point isn't who had it worse, and I think we probably had it the easiest for most of the time. But now everyone else has been "liberated," and we're just still the same old over-privileged, over-represented, over-powerful majority which no one should think to consider might have some deep rooted problems too.

I'm not saying that the gigantic masculinism movement that preceded the feminist movement was all fine and dandy for men, but what would make anyone think it would be any different the second time around?...and besides, to speak of a masculinism movement implies that men aren't basically in charge now. I mean, obviously the defiinition of masculine is power and control....so whether females or males have the masculinity, it's still characteristic of those who run everything.

when you think about it.....an underground movement of masculinity is an oxymoron.

[EdwinJefferson]

...and besides, to speak of a masculinism movement implies that men aren't basically in charge now.

It's worth noting that white men still are the majority of internet users.

[joft]

You're confusing some definitions with the connotations our culture associations them with.

masculine :
1 a : MALE b : having qualities appropriate to or usually associated with a man
2 : of, relating to, or constituting the gender that ordinarily includes most words or grammatical forms referring to males

The word you're looking for is more along the lines of patriarchy

[joft]

Is feminism about women becoming the rulers? I thought it was about equality in certain areas. Couldn't a masculine movement be about equality in certain other areas? Like men being allowed to express emotion without worrying about looking like sissies?

[booyalab]

Is feminism about women becoming the rulers? I thought it was about equality in certain areas. Couldn't a masculine movement be about equality in certain other areas? Like men being allowed to express emotion without worrying about looking like sissies?

Feminism BECAME about women becoming rulers. Obviously I'm not getting my definitions wrong since you just admitted it originally was about giving women more equality and not about letting women become more feminine. The last part isn't exactly a plight (worrying about how you look? please)and wouldn't fall into the definition you gave in your earlier post.

[booyalab]

You're confusing some definitions with the connotations our culture associations them with.

masculine :
1 a : MALE b : having qualities appropriate to or usually associated with a man
2 : of, relating to, or constituting the gender that ordinarily includes most words or grammatical forms referring to males

The word you're looking for is more along the lines of patriarchy

the first part seems to include cultural connotations. Culture has a huge say in what our definitions of words are, in case you didnt know.

[joft]

Feminism BECAME about women becoming rulers. Obviously I'm not getting my definitions wrong since you just admitted it originally was about giving women more equality and not about letting women become more feminine. The last part isn't exactly a plight (worrying about how you look? please)and wouldn't fall into the definition you gave in your earlier post. My point is that masculinism wouldn't be about letting men become more masculine, like I said, just equality in certain areas.

Not a plight, you say? I could be equally insensitive and say that being a housewife isn't exactly a plight either. But that would upset quite a few women, wouldn't it? And there you see the disparity, men aren't allowed to get upset if they're expected to do or be something, they have to "suck it up and be a man."

[joft]

the first part seems to include cultural connotations. Culture has a huge say in what our definitions of words are, in case you didnt know. My point was that patriarchy is not equivalent to masculinity. In our culture it generally is associated, but it's not part of the definition. it isn't with me, so if you want to make that association abritrary then I'm going to have to invent another word.

[EdwinJefferson]

And there you see the disparity, men aren't allowed to get upset if they're expected to do or be something, they have to "suck it up and be a man."

More so than in the 1950's. Or the 1900's. Or any period previously. Plus the use of skin creams and such could be seen as making men more feminine..

Plus if men aren't supposed to get upset, I assume you've never seen a male athlete/sports player cry. I have.

Look up 'Gazza' and Italia 90.

[booyalab]

My point is that masculinism wouldn't be about letting men become more masculine, like I said, just equality in certain areas.

Not a plight, you say? I could be equally insensitive and say that being a housewife isn't exactly a plight either. But that would upset quite a few women, wouldn't it? And there you see the disparity, men aren't allowed to get upset if they're expected to do or be something, they have to "suck it up and be a man."

I DON'T THINK being a housewife is a plight. But feminism has developed in such a way that women feel like they have to prove themselves. If we were to compare the initial reasons that started the feminism movement with your reasons for starting a masculine movement, I think we would both agree that's a significant disparity.

[booyalab]

My point was that patriarchy is not equivalent to masculinity. In our culture it generally is associated, but it's not part of the definition. it isn't with me, so if you want to make that association abritrary then I'm going to have to invent another word.

Due to the dynamic of feminism and masculinism (the adjectives), matriarchy is PRACTICALLY excluded to fiction.

[joft]

matriarchy is PRACTICALLY excluded to fiction. Isn't that a good thing? It would be better if patriarchy were exluded to fiction too, of course.

And yes, I would agree that there is a huge disparity in the reasons for starting the movements. Does that mean this movement is out of the question? We're not allowed to want "liberation" too, because we get paid more on average?

[booyalab]

Isn't that a good thing? It would be better if patriarchy were exluded to fiction too, of course.

And yes, I would agree that there is a huge disparity in the reasons for starting the movements. Does that mean this movement is out of the question? We're not allowed to want "liberation" too, because we get paid more on average?
your liberation would ironically involve even more control than you have now because no one would be allowed to think you look silly for crying

[floyd]

this study suggests that 'women preferring aggressors' may be an urban myth

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2294/is_9-10_49/ai_110813264

other studies show that women might prefer aggression + looks for a one night stand, but they prefer niceness and stability for relationships.

also, if you look at personality research, the differences between men and women are very small to non existent generally. physiology/athletics would seem to be the biggest difference between men and women, and those differences are not as great as some think (http://www.doj.state.mt.us/enforcement/physicalfitnesstests.asp). avg height difference is 5 inches, avg performance difference varies.

the ideal male, according to attractiveness research, has a waist to hip ratio of .9 and the ideal female has a waist to hip ratio of .7, so it's maybe in the ideals that the biggest differences can be observed.

other gender differences. women on average are smarter than men. but the highest iq scorers are dominated by men. there are also far more mentally retarded men. i think there is some amount of 'upper class loafing' effect in terms of female physiology, they are born healthier and less susceptible to neurological disorder, but they don't seem to excel as much. socialization is a contributor as well.

more masculine, higher waist to hip ratio females are more likely to have boys and taller children than 'ideal' .7 waist to hip ratio women according to research.

[joft]

your liberation would ironically involve even more control than you have now because no one would be allowed to think you look silly for crying People are always allowed to think whatever they want. All I'm talking about is some kind of education regarding the issues. It's an identity thing, I'm sure not as pressing as African Americans trying to find out about their history and so on. But does that leave us out of the question?

[Biff_Loman]

well, I guess technically you don't know me...

No, I don't.

[songbird36]

lol. yeah I have to say I get heartily sick of men whingeing about their disadvantaged position in modern society, and the advent of women-hating organisations such as the Promise Keepers and even (to some extent) the evangelical church movement.

Despite what some might like to think it's still largely a man's world - women *still* have to be twice as good at what they do to get ahead in careers, there is still a *vast* differential between pay scales in female dominated professions versus traditionally male professions, and women still have to be twice as interesting and twice as attractive to find a suitable mate (hence the huge number of attractive, accomplished and successful women on their own in the community where I live, versus very few men).

Women have achieved positions of public power (the top three jobs in New Zealand - PM, Chief Justice and Governor-General are all occupied by women), but in the private and community sphere this power and so called dominance is largely illusory.

So men..for Gods sake stop whingeing about efforts to redress the balance and start doing your bit to support them

[mgb]

I also agree that the feminist movement is turning into a bad, self-patronizing idea.......but we already had a masculine movement, its called every single goddamn second (edit: in western civilization) prior to the feminist movement. You guys are too late.

I would have to disagree with that. During the conversion from hunter/gatherer societies to agrarian ones, women played the more central roles in society. Evidence of this is found the fertility cults and the art they left behind.

As farming became the normal way of life, the labour involved suited men more than women and men regained control of society (so to speak). Since the agrarian revolution didn't end until a couple hundred years ago with the industrial revolution we seem to be living in a throw back to those times.

Because manufacturing and the service industries that have evolved from it, require much more mental capacity than physical strength, I can see how it wouldn't be long before women assume more dominant roles in society. You could almost call the feminist revolution a natural progression.

As for wage disparity, I have no clue why it exists. I don't know why women put up with it.

[Hazy]

Words such as "confidence", "self-esteem", "positive" and "negative" are abused to such an extent that there's no meaning left in them whatsoever. It's a bit like telling someone "be yourself".

Same as "talented", "caring", "intelligent" , "attractive" and the like. Complete waste of time, they all ignore the depths of such words. They're just thrown around to make people feel good about themselves.

No inherent superiority/inferiority between the sexes? Not true. Men will always be naturally inferior to women at child birth.

[Hazy]

As for disparities in the number of women in science/engineering/I.T, I think it's simply because it's just not a field which interests a large amount of women, not because of some anti-feminine manifesto, or high school geeks/nerds wanting revenge from years of rejection.

[EdwinJefferson]

So men..for Gods sake stop whingeing about efforts to redress the balance and start doing your bit to support them

That's hard to do though. If you're a male employer and you choose a male over a female because the male would be better suited, you could be seen as being discriminatory by some, because it's easy to accuse people of things if you don't get the outcome you wish.

[mgb]

That's hard to do though. If you're a male employer and you choose a male over a female because the male would be better suited, you could be seen as being discriminatory by some, because it's easy to accuse people of things if you don't get the outcome you wish.

As a male employer it should be easy to justify your hire because you hired the person that was best qualified for the position.

[EdwinJefferson]

As a male employer it should be easy to justify your hire because you hired the person that was best qualified for the position.

And if that is based on how someone 'acts' in an interview, that is open to debate..

[tragula]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5215685/


I totally agree that men are the last group that it is ok to bash (especially white men) and that we really need to get properly organized!

Personally I think it's that the feminist movement is split between women who think women are better than men and women who think men and women are equal.

So what we really need is an Equalist movement that both genders can join and support each other. Otherwise it becomes very confrontational. There are probably more women in the men's movement (and there definitely is a men's movement these days, even if it still doesn't have a coherent political voice) than men. Which is Great!

I am an At Home Dad, and I love the job, and it is wonderful, but boy do I take a lot of heat for it! My family (god forbid they be supportive) is pretty much leading the charge that I must be an insane bad son/husband/father. And of course not letting a little thing like the facts get in the way of their opinions...

I'm also a pretty outspoken and confident guy, and a lot of women definitely don't like that! Personally I think women want a confident and passive man, and secretly wish there was a switch they could throw depending on their mood....

Opps?!? Was that a sexist comment.... "jk"

I also think politiancs are to blame for the idea that men still rule our society. And most polititians are idiots so they don't exactly make us look good. Women however are taking over from the ground up.... they are just not drawn to politics for some reason.

I also think that women are currently favored by a lot of employers who want a kinder gentler workplace and think women can create that. I think the much promoted earnings gap is a big statistcal lie created by feminists. I mean seriously does anyone personally know of any companies that mysteriously pay men more for the same job?

Great thread!

[EdwinJefferson]

I also think politiancs are to blame for the idea that men still rule our society. And most polititians are idiots so they don't exactly make us look good. Women however are taking over from the ground up.... they are just not drawn to politics for some reason.

Ann Coulter and Margaret Thatcher to name two. Condoleezza Rice a third.

I could name more but since they're British, everyone would go who?

Or what of Emmeline Pankhurst?

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/WpankhurstE.htm

[Shai Gar]

It's worth noting that white men still are the majority of internet users.
no. the majority of internet users who are given the chance to take part in censors are white males

[Shai Gar]

and i dont think that is right either. i think the majority are asian of whatever gender

[Shai Gar]

I mean seriously does anyone personally know of any companies that mysteriously pay men more for the same job?
i think a lot of that argument comes from the people who equate personal assistand with secetary, or people who go to uni and get a degree and contribute more than the person without a degree (although i think a degree matters not. but that is only because i spend all my time studying and i dont have a degree). the PA and the S may SEEM to be doing the same thing but they arent and thus the argument. also a person who has spent time gaining qualifications if by law going to get more money than a person who has not (at least under australian law)

[Dman]

I would say white boys, living in their parent's basements, and perverted old men, living in their parent's basements

I guess you could say the majority of internet users are males living in their parent's basements

[matthew0028]

As for disparities in the number of women in science/engineering/I.T, I think it's simply because it's just not a field which interests a large amount of women, not because of some anti-feminine manifesto, or high school geeks/nerds wanting revenge from years of rejection.

I heard somewhere that in all-girls schools (pre-college), girls are more likely to go into science/engineering/I.T./what have you than in standard co-ed schools. But again, that's something I heard somewhere, and I can't really back it up, so take it as you see fit.


i think a lot of that argument comes from the people who equate personal assistand with secetary, or people who go to uni and get a degree and contribute more than the person without a degree (although i think a degree matters not. but that is only because i spend all my time studying and i dont have a degree). the PA and the S may SEEM to be doing the same thing but they arent and thus the argument. also a person who has spent time gaining qualifications if by law going to get more money than a person who has not (at least under australian law)

I don't know. I think a lot of the argument comes from statistical analysis of the amount of money people make, comparing people in similar positions. And note, even if personal assistant got confused with secretary in an analysis such as this, it would happen to people of both genders, so it'd (probably) not be an issue...

[EdwinJefferson]

no. the majority of internet users who are given the chance to take part in censors are white males

Try it on here if you think it'll return a different out come.

But looking through the photos people posted on What we look like. (For those who dare), 'white males' comes out tops... strange huh?

Is that because white males are the majority of INTPs, or is it because they are the majority on the internet?

[Shai Gar]

this isnt exactly the most decent place to censor, maybe we could do quakenet have an ircop do the test

[floyd]

/women have to work twice as hard and be twice as attractive/

the ebay founder is ugly and that did not hold her back. in fields like computers and the sciences what matters is skill and yet too many women still avoid those professions. who drives the multi billion dollar cosmetics industry or wedding industry? many of the obstacles that keep women from developing skills have nothing to do with the alledged patriarchy. i think someone that invests in makeup and fashion on a daily basis is at a disadvantage to someone that does not waste their time on such nonsense.

[Benjamin]

If everyone becomes liberated, then no one will end up liberated.

It strikes me that the reasons/excuses for people or groups of people to need liberation becomes pettier and pettier as our society dwindles into an abyss of policital correctness and looses touch with what is important.

Leave liberation for people who really need it like the Jews did or the Iraqi's do now! :)

[Shai Gar]

YEAH, liberate the iraqis from the yanks

[EdwinJefferson]

this isnt exactly the most decent place to censor

Why not? Because it'd prove me right.

[matthew0028]

YEAH, liberate the iraqis from the yanks

Yup. And while we're at it, liberate the yanks from having to finish liberating the iraquis... (or at least liberate the yanks from Bush)

So, is the phrase "yanks"... what, chiefly British & Australian nowadays? Or do other people use it? 'Cause I know that (at least here in Minnesota), that's not a term we generally use to refer to ourselves nowadays.

[Shai Gar]

i have no problem with liberating the americans from bush, hell i would cheerfully do it if someone would lend me plane ticket, accomodation and rifle. but bush is just the festering top of the whole american government situation and corruption. if we got rid of that the entire world would be happy

it is definately australian, british too. i am certain canucks use it.

and no this isnt the right place to censor because knowing about this site means knowing about mbti, and being intp, knowing what that means and finding this site. quakenet is larger, more international and stuff. and a marjority of the people on here come from european countries (USA, EU, AUS(by that i mean settled by europeans))

[EdwinJefferson]

and no this isnt the right place to censor because knowing about this site means knowing about mbti, and being intp, knowing what that means and finding this site. quakenet is larger, more international and stuff. and a marjority of the people on here come from european countries (USA, EU, AUS(by that i mean settled by europeans))

I've never heard of quakenet and nobody has ever mentioned it to me. I think you'll find anywhere is a bad place, and that this is therefore as good as any, because knowing about mbti and being an intp isn't restricted to white males.

[Seraph]

Some places have 2 restrooms, 1 for women, and 1 unisex. The choice of trusting the other sex is only allowed to women.

I've never once seen anything like that before. That's so bizarre. So in theory, a woman could be standing there while a man's doing his business? Yechh. You should write them about that.

Ever notice at places, especially churches, the men's bathroom sign will have a little man figure on it, but the womens' will have both a woman figure on it and a child? What if Daddy's taking Junior somewhere?

It's like how you'll see woman bringing their sons into the women's restroom all the time...but never, ever will you see a man bringing his daughter into the men's restroom! We just don't trust men, and like it or not, there is some basis for it. How often do you hear of kids being abducted by women?

[mgb]

How often do you hear of kids being abducted by women?

All the time. It isn't that rare.

In fact the most heinous example of kidnapping (the murder/caesarian section kidnapping) was committed by a woman.

[crule81]

Yeah, half of the "Have you seen me?" cards I get in the mail are kids abducted by women. Of course they are usually mothers who took off with their kids due to custody problems.

[booyalab]

I think kids are much more likely to get molested by a man, though. So that's an extra strike against male kidnappers..and another reason to suspect a given kidnapper would be more likely to be male.

[EdwinJefferson]

I think kids are much more likely to get molested by a man, though. So that's an extra strike against male kidnappers..and another reason to suspect a given kidnapper would be more likely to be male.

Myra Hindley not familiar in the US..

http://www.tamesideadvertiser.co.uk/ContentResources/C_10_ImageGallery_128_Image.jpg

[booyalab]

what a pleasant looking woman

[EdwinJefferson]

That image was turned into a huge portrait made of childrens hand prints..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/480000/images/_484942_myra_150.jpg

It isn't pixalisation, it's handprints.

[booyalab]

thats wrong

[EdwinJefferson]

"i'm going to keeeeel you"

"mummmy!"

[Dman]

I've never once seen anything like that before. That's so bizarre. So in theory, a woman could be standing there while a man's doing his business? Yechh. You should write them about that.

Ever notice at places, especially churches, the men's bathroom sign will have a little man figure on it, but the womens' will have both a woman figure on it and a child? What if Daddy's taking Junior somewhere?

It's like how you'll see woman bringing their sons into the women's restroom all the time...but never, ever will you see a man bringing his daughter into the men's restroom! We just don't trust men, and like it or not, there is some basis for it. How often do you hear of kids being abducted by women?

Could be that the one with a kid on it has a baby changing station in there. Unfortunately now they put one in a lot of men's rooms too. Damn the person who did that!

I've also seen in malls and stuff that some are putting in a men's, women's and now a "family" restroom. Those are really cool for us parents.

Another note to point out – I know it sounds like a cop-out, but seriously, some of those men’s rooms are absolutely disgusting. In those cases I try to talk my wife into taking the little guy into hers. Kids don’t know better to not touch stuff in the bathroom, and men’s rooms can be scary (and usually are) even for adults!

[EdwinJefferson]

Another note to point out – I know it sounds like a cop-out, but seriously, some of those men’s rooms are absolutely disgusting. In those cases I try to talk my wife into taking the little guy into hers. Kids don’t know better to not touch stuff in the bathroom, and men’s rooms can be scary (and usually are) even for adults!

Most likely the reason why men's toilets don't have changing facilities.

plus women don't tend to pee/defecate in full view of everyone else.. in mens rooms whole different story. So much easier to see a penis or three in a men's room than see any part of the female anatomy not visible outside of there (remembers from when he was a child and not allowed in men's rooms).

[Seraph]

Yeah, half of the "Have you seen me?" cards I get in the mail are kids abducted by women. Of course they are usually mothers who took off with their kids due to custody problems.

You're right. Women will abduct children due to custody problems. They have no intent of harming the kid. However, men will take off with a child with the intent of raping and/or killing him or her. Whole different story.

[mgb]

You're right. Women will abduct children due to custody problems. They have no intent of harming the kid. However, men will take off with a child with the intent of raping and/or killing him or her. Whole different story.

You could argue that kidnapping is a form of harm in itself.

[Dman]

Most likely the reason why men's toilets don't have changing facilities.

plus women don't tend to pee/defecate in full view of everyone else.. in mens rooms whole different story. So much easier to see a penis or three in a men's room than see any part of the female anatomy not visible outside of there (remembers from when he was a child and not allowed in men's rooms).

Excellent point.

[QrioCT]

meh. im a woman and i support feminism to a certain extent but you know for example how people organize rallies and spend millions of dollars for the cause just to officially say "snowman" is wrong, it should be called a "snowperson"? when the whole damn country has billions of dollars in deficit and people are starving in some states(yes i dunno if its reliable but i read there are a lot of, like maybe millions of starving people even in america)? i dont know about other people, but the term snowman doesnt piss me off at all. maybe eventually we should start calling it snowperson but spending so much money to fuss over a word while people are starving...is dumb.

[booyalab]

You could argue that kidnapping is a form of harm in itself.

yes, and so are you saying that just kidnapping is equal to or greater than kidnapping and raping/killing? If you're not, whats the point of saying it?

[Seraph]

I have a question. Do public restrooms really need urinals? I mean, the average household doesn't have any, and they get along just fine without them.

[matthew0028]

Well, urinals are more convenient, and take up less space. Also, if a given restroom has urinals, it's less likely that a bunch of random men have peed on the seats of the toilets...

[Edmond Zedo]

[urinals] the average household doesn't have any, and they get along just fine without them.
And isn't that a shame! I want one in EVERY ROOM.

Oh, and btw, what pisses me off about current sex etiquette is that it's politically correct, and publicly accepted (TV commercials etc.) for a woman to be seen as dominant and vicious to her s.o., but not vice versa. It should go both ways or none at all.

[mgb]

I have a question. Do public restrooms really need urinals? I mean, the average household doesn't have any, and they get along just fine without them.

I would say its really about the mess some animals leave in the toilets, makes the urinals a pretty attractive option sometimes.

And, don't be jealous that we can aim our pee.

[Edmond Zedo]

And, don't be jealous that we can aim our pee.
They can too, with practice.

[Seraph]

And, don't be jealous that we can aim our pee.

I find it difficult to be envious of having to whip out one's genitals in front of members of your same sex just to take a piss.

[knome]

"This was freedom. Losing all hope was freedom."

[joft]

LOL

god i used to be so cute

and so stupid

[Limey]

LOL

god i used to be so cute

and so stupid

You're still white...

[Dman]

Ah, we were so young and innocent, weren't we? It's almost embarassing now, if it weren't so damn cute.

By the way, I've decided I really want to put a urinal in my home bathroom. I heard Howard Stern say the other day that he put one in his apartment bathroom, and I got jealous. I want one that goes down to the floor, not one up off the floor that still can splatter you, but one that goes from chest height on the wall all the way down to the floor, so you can piss all over the place (even almost straight down) and still keep it clean. Yeah.

Plus, think of the water you save!

[Architectonic]

LOL

god i used to be so cute

and so stupid

You still are and you still made an interesting point nevertheless.

[kuranes]

LOL

god i used to be so cute

:smooch:


You still are and you still made an interesting point nevertheless.+1

[stuck]

Ah, we were so young and innocent, weren't we? It's almost embarassing now, if it weren't so damn cute.

By the way, I've decided I really want to put a urinal in my home bathroom. I heard Howard Stern say the other day that he put one in his apartment bathroom, and I got jealous. I want one that goes down to the floor, not one up off the floor that still can splatter you, but one that goes from chest height on the wall all the way down to the floor, so you can piss all over the place (even almost straight down) and still keep it clean. Yeah.

Plus, think of the water you save!

PISS IN YO YARD MOTHAFUCKA AND IF YOU AINT GOT A YARD PISS ON SOMEONE ELSES YARD

[krauser]

I always thought women were in control.

As Mr Burns said in the Simpsons: "For once, the rich white man is in control."

[Fingers]

This makes sense to me..

dgdf