Tao Te Ching

[Niffer]

http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html#1

read this. it's not too long, and it's really interesting. written by master Lao-Tzu; translated by some random smart white guy.

interesting, truthful, educational concepts. here's an example:



11

We join spokes together in a wheel,
but it is the center hole
that makes the wagon move.

We shape clay into a pot,
but it is the emptiness inside
that holds whatever we want.

We hammer wood for a house,
but it is the inner space
that makes it livable.

We work with being,
but non-being is what we use.

you better read it.




you BETTER.

[Pan]

I like the Mitchell translation too.

[cv2]

Keep in mind that the english translations are very inflated compared to the original version in ancient chinese. I was disappointed when I finally became able to read the original. The example you picked is quite faithful but as a rule of thumb verses of the daodejing in chinese don't sound nearly as cool as there is no space for rethorical devices - everything is super compressed.
The original says WAY CAN WAY, CLEAR CAN CLEAR... I doubt that would sell, and that's why every dude who comes along has his own translation.
That is not to say that the original sucks, just the feel of it is quite different from the kung-fu fighting big trouble in china town kind of cocky spin that has made some translations popular.

[PlayerOfGames]

I don't know how faithful it is to the original (I'm sure someone here can shed some light on that), but I dig Ron Hogan's interpretation of it: http://www.beatrice.com/TAO.html

1.

If you can talk about it,
it ain't Tao.
If it has a name,
it's just another thing.

Tao doesn't have a name.
Names are for ordinary things.

Stop wanting stuff;
it keeps you from seeing what's real.
When you want stuff,
all you see are things.

Those two sentences
mean the same thing.
Figure them out,
and you've got it made.

...

[cv2]

I don't know how faithful it is to the original (I'm sure someone here can shed some light on that), but I dig Ron Hogan's interpretation of it: http://www.beatrice.com/TAO.html

1.

If you can talk about it,
it ain't Tao.
If it has a name,
it's just another thing.

Tao doesn't have a name.
Names are for ordinary things.

Stop wanting stuff;
it keeps you from seeing what's real.
When you want stuff,
all you see are things.

Those two sentences
mean the same thing.
Figure them out,
and you've got it made.

...

Good. Laozi would have approved. It's just practical advice after all. Not a fancy story to entertain.

[Birdsnest]

Tao Te Ching was one of the first books I ever purchased, I love that book, and especially remember #11, its very good.

[Xenophon]

Keep in mind that the english translations are very inflated compared to the original version in ancient chinese. I was disappointed when I finally became able to read the original. The example you picked is quite faithful but as a rule of thumb verses of the daodejing in chinese don't sound nearly as cool as there is no space for rethorical devices - everything is super compressed.
The original says WAY CAN WAY, CLEAR CAN CLEAR... I doubt that would sell, and that's why every dude who comes along has his own translation.
That is not to say that the original sucks, just the feel of it is quite different from the kung-fu fighting big trouble in china town kind of cocky spin that has made some translations popular.
I don't know Chinese, however I bought "The Definitive Edition" by Jonathan Star, which has a translation, but it also has the entire text in chinese characters. Beside each character it has a translation for that character. The interesting thing is that each character can be translated into 3-10 different english words. They are much more general concepts than english words. Personally I think that those concepts, even though they are less precise, are more accurate when you trying to describe the Tao. When you have something that cannot be described (see the first line of the book), by nature more precise words will be less accurate in describing it than more general concepts.

[AMDG]

I like John C H Wu's translation, the Shambala edition. Been a big fan of Taoism for many years. There's the now legendary 'Tao of Pooh and Teh of Piglet' for the layman, but I reckon people with strong N wouldn't find the original wording (faithfully translated) too much of a trouble.

The problem I've had in getting the ideas across to others is just that they frames of reference are too alien for the Western mind to grasp, though perfectly obvious to even the uneducated Chinaman. Then again, I read somewhere that the Chinese have the highest average IQ on the planet... figures...

[Xenophon]

I like John C H Wu's translation, the Shambala edition. Been a big fan of Taoism for many years. There's the now legendary 'Tao of Pooh and Teh of Piglet' for the layman, but I reckon people with strong N wouldn't find the original wording (faithfully translated) too much of a trouble.

The problem I've had in getting the ideas across to others is just that they frames of reference are too alien for the Western mind to grasp, though perfectly obvious to even the uneducated Chinaman. Then again, I read somewhere that the Chinese have the highest average IQ on the planet... figures...
I listened to part of the Tao of Pooh on audio book many years ago when I was going on a road trip with my dad. I had to turn it off after just a few hours. The problem wasn't necessarily his description of Taoism, it was his need to crap all over Buddhism and Confucianism in the process. I like ideas from all three religions, where he pretty much made a blanket statement that Taoism was good, and the other two were stupid.

I don't think that understanding the Tao Te Ching really has much to do with intelligence. It has more to do with the structure of Chinese language and culture. As I said earlier, their language actually works in a different way, and thus it allows for understanding in a different way. In the west, we have a very mechanical view of the world. In christianity for example, most people view God as an old man in the sky. And they read the bible in a literal way (or believe the bible speaks literal truthes, even though they have never read it). Buddhism talks about more abstract concepts that are very foreign to our culture. I think this is why I usually have a really hard time when I try to explain my spiritual view to others. English (germanic and romantic languages in general I think), just isn't suited for communicating those types of ideas.

[AMDG]

I like ideas from all three religions, where he pretty much made a blanket statement that Taoism was good, and the other two were stupid.

Yeah, that part got me a bit, too.


I don't think that understanding the Tao Te Ching really has much to do with intelligence. It has more to do with the structure of Chinese language and culture.

Yeah, I know, I was only kidding about that...


As I said earlier, their language actually works in a different way, and thus it allows for understanding in a different way. In the west, we have a very mechanical view of the world. In christianity for example, most people view God as an old man in the sky. And they read the bible in a literal way (or believe the bible speaks literal truthes, even though they have never read it). Buddhism talks about more abstract concepts that are very foreign to our culture. I think this is why I usually have a really hard time when I try to explain my spiritual view to others. English (germanic and romantic languages in general I think), just isn't suited for communicating those types of ideas.

I don't know... the more mystical/abstract concept of God can be found in some medieval/late antiquity Latin works. Abelard, for example, Boethius, various others. I don't think it's limitations of the language, but more of the culture. If someone gets a bit of grounding in Chinese culture - I mean, you can get enough to get by through watching kung fu movies - and can shift their mind a bit into the other frame (needs high N, probably), it's not really hard to put it into words to someone else who has those points of reference.

It's like when you explain anything in English - you need the listener to have the necessary background knowledge. It's just that, with Taoism, a lot of what's assumed knowledge in Chinese culture, isn't here. It's probably one of the only cases where a lack of assumptions can actually hinder understanding!!

However... there are plenty of people around who do understand the concepts, but they don't realise it.

[Niffer]

However... there are plenty of people around who do understand the concepts, but they don't realise it.

Everyone does.

[Nightning]

Is it just me, or do translations seem "fluffed up"? But then again... chinese terminology... you can call them characters carry a lot more depth, connotations than the replacement english words... =/

[cut the grass]

i love tao te ching. i have the best translation of it, and i have read it many times.

[fripping]

i like zhuangzi better.

[Bluesman]

In the west, we have a very mechanical view of the world. In christianity for example, most people view God as an old man in the sky. And they read the bible in a literal way (or believe the bible speaks literal truthes, even though they have never read it). Buddhism talks about more abstract concepts that are very foreign to our culture. I think this is why I usually have a really hard time when I try to explain my spiritual view to others. English (germanic and romantic languages in general I think), just isn't suited for communicating those types of ideas.

Not to get OT, but Christianity has both a western and an eastern character to it. I think it is true that western Christianity tends towards, as you say, a mechanical and/or literal view of things, but there is another side that comes out in, for example, St. John of the Cross or Meister Eckhart. In the eastern Christian approaches the sort of spirituality that we associate with the orient was never absent. This is the Christianity of the Desert Fathers, of Gregory Palamas and the monks of Mt. Athos, of St. Seraphim of Sarov.

If you are interested in seeing the "eastern" character within Christianity, a recent work I highly recommend is "Christ the Eternal Tao" by Hieromonk Damascene. It isn't one of those new-agey and syncretic attempts to expropriate eastern spirituality, it's not really about Taoism at all, but rather an exposition on Christian spirituality that is very traditional and orthodox, using Lao tzu more as a basis for comparison or a jumping off point, and yet put in terms that modern westerners attracted by eastern approaches can find useful. It is also a very well put together book, with many excellent illustrations of Chinese Christian art and eastern iconography.

Here's the Amazon link (http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Eternal-Tao-Hieromonk-Damascene/dp/1887904239/ref=sr_1_1/104-6135268-0431902?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177758819&sr=1-1)

Oh, and thank you Notevenjoking for that link to the Ron Hogan translation. Those are really excellent.

[Zero Angel]

I don't know how faithful it is to the original (I'm sure someone here can shed some light on that), but I dig Ron Hogan's interpretation of it: http://www.beatrice.com/TAO.html

1.

If you can talk about it,
it ain't Tao.
If it has a name,
it's just another thing.

Tao doesn't have a name.
Names are for ordinary things.

Stop wanting stuff;
it keeps you from seeing what's real.
When you want stuff,
all you see are things.

Those two sentences
mean the same thing.
Figure them out,
and you've got it made.

...
I like that translation. I printed out a copy of the Tao Te Ching before, and the first chapter went something like this:

The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
Thus, constantly without desire, one observes its essence
Constantly with desire, one observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders

------
The version you linked to is the plain english version of this one (http://taoism.net/ttc/complete.htm) has a more poetic flair and seems to be expanded. On the version you posted I liked Chapter 20's "Dont waste time thinking about stupid shit".

[Hermione]

Girl. you are too cool to give us that this morning. Ignore the american reactions to it if you can, also. Always have to pee on territory that's not ours apparently. This is perfect right now. I need to go back to my Jungian roots where I belong and where I was born. Been trying but my ego is still struggling to 'figure everything out'. humanity -- bah! btw, you are truly great... i appreciate it.

[Niffer]

Girl. you are too cool to give us that this morning. Ignore the american reactions to it if you can, also. Always have to pee on territory that's not ours apparently. This is perfect right now. I need to go back to my Jungian roots where I belong and where I was born. Been trying but my ego is still struggling to 'figure everything out'. humanity -- bah! btw, you are truly great... i appreciate it.

o.o okay.
...
:)?

[MasterMerk]

It's good shit. I go back and read it every now and then. The short length helps.

And yes, Zhuangzi is a great read too. It definitely widens the perspective from mindnumbing rationalistic imposed limits.