The INTP Education Paradox

[jgreensp]

I know there was a thread that discussed people's experience with educational institutions and grading. I am someone who values knowledge above everything else. If I can no longer learn, I can no longer live. However, my University transcript is a goddamn joke. I can't do exceptionally well in any subject material no matter how interested I may be. There is definitely a correlation between interest and final mark for me but when even in subject material I'm fascinated with, my interest gradually wanes for any number of reasons..possibley I dislike the prof or I disagree with the marking scheme or the focus of the course or even something as silly as disliking the people in the classroom. My lack of follow and impatience with memorizing details and doing mundane questions doesn't help either. So somedays, I say to myself "fuck institutional education" I can learn on my own while other times I think education is crucial and I should continue. I almost dropped out of school because of my frustration, I hate not doing well when I'm "supposed" to be smart and understand the "big picture" of what's being taught more than my peers who are getting better grades than me. What is an INTP supposed to do to get over this? We are not practical, street-smart people who can drop out of school and make it by but nor are we "type A" students who can obtain the most prestigious degrees from the most prestigious Universities. Does anyone else feel this frustration? AHHHH!

[Killsteel]

Learn on your own, it's better...

[mgb]

I know there was a thread that discussed people's experience with educational institutions and grading. I am someone who values knowledge above everything else. If I can no longer learn, I can no longer live. However, my University transcript is a goddamn joke. I can't do exceptionally well in any subject material no matter how interested I may be. There is definitely a correlation between interest and final mark for me but when even in subject material I'm fascinated with, my interest gradually wanes for any number of reasons..possibley I dislike the prof or I disagree with the marking scheme or the focus of the course or even something as silly as disliking the people in the classroom. My lack of follow and impatience with memorizing details and doing mundane questions doesn't help either. So somedays, I say to myself "fuck institutional education" I can learn on my own while other times I think education is crucial and I should continue. I almost dropped out of school because of my frustration, I hate not doing well when I'm "supposed" to be smart and understand the "big picture" of what's being taught more than my peers who are getting better grades than me. What is an INTP supposed to do to get over this? We are not practical, street-smart people who can drop out of school and make it by but nor are we "type A" students who can obtain the most prestigious degrees from the most prestigious Universities. Does anyone else feel this frustration? AHHHH!

I won't be posting my transcripts on here anytime soon. I enjoy a class until the basic concept of the class becomes apparent to me or I make a connection from the class that I did not get from the class and then I lose interest.

A couple things have held my interest for various reasons. Art History does. The infusion of history with the art imitating it is great. I have a task, to learn the artists, but I learn a lot about history. I also did well in a geography class that was team taught by three teachers. By the time I got bored of one...new teacher was in.

I am also not very good at learning by myself. I mean I do, but I think I miss some of the concepts that would otherwise be handed to me on a silver platter in the classroom. And I get a lot out of the discourse of education. Also, plugging through a topic, even though I am bored of it, can be rewarding.

Maybe try spring/summer classes. They are condensed so by the time you are bored the class is done.

[Helen]

Sometimes you've got to just grit your teeth and bear it if you really want to do something, no matter how tedious it gets. I am most definitely a P and as such, I got tired of the conventional education system way back in high school or junior high. And yet (not bragging here b/c I don't think it's anything to brag about), I've gotten all A's all through school (am in medical school now). I think the only reason I've gotten this far so well though is my INTJ father, who always strongly emphasized finishing what you start. It's called discipline, and no, it probably won't come natural to you, as it doesn't to me. But it's gotten me where I wanted to go.


I hate not doing well when I'm "supposed" to be smart and understand the "big picture" of what's being taught more than my peers who are getting better grades than me.


Don't I know about this. It used to stress me out and even now still bothers me when I hear other people in class spouting out all the minutiae they've memorized that I haven't. Just yesterday I heard the one of the most annoying of these types giving a mini-lecture about blood cells to some other poor soul in the class. Now this girl had literally memorized ~50 pages of random shopping-list-like info (the kind I put off learning till right before the test if at all) that we haven't even gotten to yet in class. And it's only the second week of class! I was starting to feel a little inadequate, but then later the prof asked her a concept/understanding type question on the material, and she had no idea! I can't stand that people will sit and memorize minute detail and feel so superior and yet never even look at the big picture. Alas, med school (and life) is full of such people!

So anyway, even though it doesn't come natural to INTPs, if you really want something, there's really no way around it--you've got to just suck it up and stick to it. The intelligence is certainly there; just make sure you keep up the effort.

[Biff_Loman]

I'm with Helen.

My transcript looks bizarre, too, but I finally figured it out and made the Dean's Honour List in fourth year. Yay.

It's called dragging yourself over broken glass until you reach your goal. Welcome to university.

[garak]

jgreensp, I feel EXACTLY the same about school. I do disagree that we can't make it as dropouts, but it probably is harder for us than other types.

While I'm only doing average in college, I AM passing all of my classes and I am getting better. That's much more than I can say for my high school career, and oh yeah I'm learning a hell of a lot more too. Personally I'm happy with a C average. Not overjoyed, but happy. Having a degree with even a C average is still so much better than not having one.

[glassmoon]

Learn on your own, it's better...
I think its something common to xNxp types to learn better alone. Maybe this link will help you: http://www.longleaf.net/ggrow/WriteVisual/WriteVisual.html#anchor361441

So you'r learning to become a doctor Helen? That's cool. I never realy saw INTp's as doctors, strange.... Seemed to me so ISTj'ish area.

[joft]

I have a lot of problems with the school system. I homeschooled from 4th grade through highschool, but now I go to a community college so I'm back in it. Back when I went to grade school I would just be incredibly bored and uninterested, it's not much different now except that I've kind of gotten used to it and come up with ways to deal with it. I basically just let my introverted thinking go wild, I end up perceiving and analyzing so many things about the class experience and the subject and the professor and the other students, I keep myself busy. It's not as bad in college either because you can study a lot more of the things that actually interest you.

I know when I'm done with academia, if I ever am, I will miss it.

[Dman]

Yeah, I'm with you all. I personally prefer a mix of do-it-yourself learning combined with school. School gives you a little more structure and starting points, but can be tedious or distracting with other students. Works best for me to only take a class or two at a time, so that it doesn’t consume me and wear me out. Plus that way I have time to follow my own interests as they pop up.

Higher education/advanced classes (such as grad school) usually hold attention better than other classes too, probably because they concentrate more on the subject material than on homework and grades. Still gotta deal with people though.

[Warrior413]

Same here. In my high school I have the worst chemistry class, annoying students, useless teacher. I have a good corner though, so I can surreptitiously listen to my mp3 player, read a book, teach myself how to write left-handed, or just zone out. :zzz: Anyway... just bear it, but do what you want.

[Helen]

So you'r learning to become a doctor Helen? That's cool. I never realy saw INTp's as doctors, strange.... Seemed to me so ISTj'ish area.

Yes, rather strange, isn't it? But maybe not so much as you think. I want to go into neurology, and a fair chunk of neurologists are INTPs. Other specialties with higher numbers of INTPs are psychiatry and pathology, both of which I am considering as well. Of course I like the theory of medicine more than I'll probably like practising it, but then I do have to earn money, don't I? And anyway, I like neurology, especially the brain, b/c it's so very complex and no one will probably ever be able to completely understand it. It also involves a lot of problem solving, which is fine by me.

[jgreensp]

I appreciate the advice and I think you are right on. Although I'm tempted at times to think I can "beat the sytem" ultimately I can't and so I ought to suck it up and play the game. The problem for me at this point is that particularly my second year was a sour one for marks and that really hurt my cumulative GPA. My father is also a "finish what you start" "do it once and do it right" kinda guy(think he's an INTJ/ISTJ). So that adds to the pressure and now guilt I have regarding my grades.

[jgreensp]

garak, it's nice to hear I'm not alone here. I agree with you that getting the degree at least regardless of grades is an accomplishment in itself and as one of my Profs once told me.."even your grades don't reflect it..but you truly get it..that is very valuable." I would like to hear your thoughts and how we make good dropouts:)

[MasterMerk]

The education system as I know it in my country isn't too great, but not likely to change.

I'm a senior and finishing high school at the end of this year. The whole way the syllabus is structured for each class subject is disturbing enough. 90% of it is fact regurgitation. You don't even have to think for yourself, just memorise and memorise and spit it all back out on exam day. The whole thing is about knowing what the markers want to see and showing it - what a bore. You could say I learn best when "Taking ideas and making them your own", but this doesn't apply to anything I learn at school. Horrid.

And it doesn't help that so much of our future relys on results this year. >.<

[int]

Maymester classes were a blessing. 3 weeks of focused intensity on one course. Get the gist of the topic, then get out. My kinda learnin'.

5 week summer school sessions were the next best.

I do self-paced courses and try to hammer them out as fast as I can - because once you slack once it's all over (well, for me at least).

Lastly, communicating your situation with instructors helps to a certain degree. You're not really a "special needs" student so you still have to grin and bear it, but at least they might make an effort to help when you lose interest.



On a side note, I find your "not...street smart" statement interesting enough for it's own thread.

[Helen]

jgreensp,

Yes, I definitely agree with the others that grades don't really matter in the long run, so long as you get the degree. Even in grade-obsessed med school we have a saying: P (pass) = M.D. I have always been rather obsessive about them in one sense, probably b/c of what I learned from my dad. But in another deeper sense, I've known since childhood that they aren't really a measure of understanding or proficiency or anything else really important. But grades are the measure our society uses, and there's not much we can do about that. Just keep your nose to the grindstone--and keep in mind you're probably smarter than 95% of the people out there anyway.

[int]

Heh. My first Maymester class I took Pass/Fail. I would have gotten an A and not have been suspended from CU-Boulder if I had taken it under the normal grading system.

Whoops. :rofl:


edit for clarification: I've been kicked out of AZ State Univ, and U of Colorado at Boulder (twice). Always because of my low GPA. The first time I got the boot from CO-Boulder was after a rough spring semester (and a summer school session, which is supposed to be how these types of problems are fixed). I got on probation after the spring semester and managed a 1.8 GPA for the summer and fall combined. If I had taken the Maymester class regularily I would have not gotten the boot. But since I took it Pass/Fail (which is supposed to help for classses you think are too tough, so as not to affect your GPA), in the long run, I made a mistake. It was a critical thinking Poli Sci class. Irony. See it?

I wish I hadn't taken it Pass/Fail. Oh well.

It's funny, now.