Martyrdom, assisted suicide and related

[wezl]

IMO another culture war front is looming and it is assisted suicide, because people want to die with dignity and other reasons. The Religious Right will go ballistic over this just like abortion and gay marriage and it will seek to outlaw it forever. But remember thr phrase "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?" It appears to me that life or not life is above the law, not to be decided by law. More latter.

[Edmond Zedo]

"Hello, and welcome to the world of KMFDM, and our new album, 'NAIVE'"

[Shai Gar]

heh, in australia we need not worry about your religious right (democrats and republicans). there has already been assisted suicide in australia with the help of a doctor, and the whole thing was broadcast online. the doctor was not jailed. that set the precident

[wezl]

Another Culture Wars idea: How do you feel about capital punishment? I am against executions on the ground that the government should not be killing people. Solution? Let the people kill them. Get the government out of it after they are convicted and sentenced. Turn the condemned over to the people to execute. Advantages to this idea? Govt out of killing; better deterent value because; people are immune to "Cruel and unusual punishment" clause; we can televise it and make it pay for itself. Comments?

[Miss Anthropic]

Another Culture Wars idea: How do you feel about capital punishment? I am against executions on the ground that the government should not be killing people. Solution? Let the people kill them. Get the government out of it after they are convicted and sentenced. Turn the condemned over to the people to execute. Advantages to this idea? Govt out of killing; better deterent value because; people are immune to "Cruel and unusual punishment" clause; we can televise it and make it pay for itself. Comments?
In theory......I'd also like to have mandatory birth-control for everybody and then have prospective parents go through an education process and submit an application. Unfortunately good ideas like these don't fly so well here in the Land'O'Democracy! However there is nothing like a good public stoning to set an example.....

wezl, no surprise you're from Texas.... :rofl:

[Shai Gar]

how about that old american law, no killin', and for those who claim religous right, thou shalt not kill.

i would only support the death penalty if the judge who ordered his death along with the jury had to sit at a board (come execution day) and each flip their own switch to fry him. and then they died as well. the death penalty is a bad idea, because the crimes you are killing the man for you are yourself commiting.

[wezl]

WRT no killing, the actual translation (I am told by a minister) is "Thou shalt not murder," not simply kill. He believes in capital punishment, by the way. Anyway, my latest idea is to combine public execution with faith-based programs. In other words, let the (insert radical denomination) churches handle the actual execution. They could sermonize about the evils of gays and abortions and muslims until they are worked into a frenzy and then, on preempted TV, rip the condemned to pieces. Remember what Dennis Miller said: America is the new Texas; we'll kick your ass.

[mgb]

I think it's funny that pro-lifers are for the death penalty (and vice versa).

As for assisted suicide, people should have the right to do what they want with their lives, even if that means ending it (maybe not at the expense of a giant train wreck, which is funny because they want to give him the death penalty now). Some people can't end their own lives because they are completely immobilized, why deny them the right to do what they want with their lives then? It's kind of insult to injury, you can't move so we get to tell you what to do, but if you could move you could do whatever you want.

[Eileen]

I think it's funny that pro-lifers are for the death penalty (and vice versa).


Yes. This phenomenon makes me sigh sadly.

Sigh.



It's also rather enraging that pro-lifers are against sex education beyond abstinence only...


(I say this as a teacher in a poor black school in which ten percent! of my students last semester were pregnant or mothers--say nothing of those who might have been fathers... And let me tell you--it sure is hard to tell a girl who has been up all night taking care of her baby that she needs to not sleep in your class.)

[Shai Gar]

WEZL, i will set you straight, it is thou shalt not kill. i just went through my dads collection looking for that translation and i found too books explaining it their names and isbn numbers are as follows

The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible. 0687192692
The Five Books of Moses: A Translation with Commentary.(Torah) 0393019551
my dad is an anglican priest, and his library is quite decent

and what if the person is innocent but is convicted and sentenced to death, america is the only first world nation with this as a punishment. check the statistics on innocent people in jail who are wrongly convicted. the only decent thing to do is kill anyone who condones the death penalty politically, who orders death, and those jurors who say a man is guilty if the death penalty is in the cards

[ApeTheDog]

Assisted suicide: yes. Nobody can condemn you to a life of suffering. We shoot horses when they're in a lot of pain. Why can't we do it with people when they ask us to? I know there are religious reasons not to - but those are frankly all just bullshit.

Capital punishment: Shouldn't exist. IMO revenge is never the right thing to do. It's also not necesary. There used to be a time when there were no courts, laws and judges. Then, I can understand why people would resort to this. That time is far past us now, however, and so should capital punishment be - as it is ultimately illegal, and, well... the law shouldn't be above the law.

[mgb]

Capital punishment: Shouldn't exist. IMO revenge is never the right thing to do. It's also not necesary. There used to be a time when there were no courts, laws and judges. Then, I can understand why people would resort to this. That time is far past us now, however, and so should capital punishment be - as it is ultimately illegal, and, well... the law shouldn't be above the law.

So are you for or against free choice when it comes to abortions?

[Shai Gar]

that is a whole different argument, for one thing abortion is not capital punishment. i am for free choice in that regard as it is the womans choice and not the governments. once that baby is born it has rights but not beforehand

[Shai Gar]

and, well... the law shouldn't be above the law.exactly, that is why i propose continuously that the jury who says a man is guilty when death penalty is allowed to be asked for (whether or not it is asked for), and the judge who condemns a man to death they should all be in that room with that man when he dies and they should be the ones who have to simultaniously pull the switch that kills the condemned, and them as well.

[mgb]

that is a whole different argument, for one thing abortion is not capital punishment. i am for free choice in that regard as it is the womans choice and not the governments. once that baby is born it has rights but not beforehand

Both "sides" are funny. One side typically, is for the death penalty but against abortions, and the other is for "choice" and against the death penalty. When it comes down to it, both sides consider the other in favor of murder for what they are doing.

It's hard to say that a fetus isn't alive. I mean, legally it isn't alive, but it does have a heartbeat and limbs and such. I am pretty pro-choice, but then how can I be against state sanctioned murder? They don't deserve to die because we are hipocrites for killing them? Some of the stuff killers do is pretty heinous.

[Shai Gar]

i am for abortions for one reason, this world is overpopulated and only morons dont wear condoms. i dont want more morons on this planet. and i dont want a kid, i want to adopt, if a chick i am sleeping with gets preggers i am giving her a contract, either i pay no child support ever and she never contacts me about the child, or i pay for the abortion.

the side that is for death penalty and no abortions tend to be religious nuts who should be sent to the doctors to be spaded.

[ApeTheDog]

I'm pro-choice. I think it is important for a child to be born into a family that loves it and wants it. If it can't have this, and it would be destined to grow up in a family where it is neglected or abused, I think it is better for the child not to be born at all.

I don't think revenge is ever justified. No matter what atrocities have been commited against you, if you strike back, you're wrong as well. Revenge is petty and shouldn't exist, really, especially not in the government. There is life-imprisonment as an alternative, which is equally harsh, but it is civil. The victim still has his life, he's just kept away from everybody whom he could hurt. The government's hands are clean - thy haven't taken any actions they weren't forced to for the defense of the people.

Mind you, I have been angry, and I have felt like I would love to hit somebody for what they've done to me, but it wouldn't be right. I expect a government to serve a higher purpose - the fair treatment of all, rich and poor, guilty and innocent, black and white - rather than merely catering to the satisfaction of the victims alone.

[Shai Gar]

they also cater to businesses

[mgb]

i am for abortions for one reason, this world is overpopulated and only morons dont wear condoms. i dont want more morons on this planet. and i dont want a kid, i want to adopt, if a chick i am sleeping with gets preggers i am giving her a contract, either i pay no child support ever and she never contacts me about the child, or i pay for the abortion.

the side that is for death penalty and no abortions tend to be religious nuts who should be sent to the doctors to be spaded.

Your contract will never hold up with a judge.

[wezl]

Capital punishment: Shouldn't exist. IMO revenge is never the right thing to do. It's also not necesary. .

Revenge is wrong, I agree, but there are other reasons for criminal punshment. Consider what Plato taught: The point of punishment is to make the criminal love justice, and if they will not they should die. Its not vengence but practicality. Maybe if we could ship them off somewhere, like the English did by sending criminals to Australia, that would do, but that's not practical in today's world.

[wezl]

once that baby is born it has rights but not beforehand

Why choose that particular event? Suppose science were to determine that we acheive true humanity at, for example, age three. We know chimps learn more rapidly and are more advanced than tottlers so the argument might be made that before age three or four, only the parents have any rights in the child.

[wezl]

Has anyone dealt with the subject of martyrdom? What do you think about the act of sacraficing oneself for a cause, whether relig., political, or social? Would anyone say that Jesus intentionally martyred himself in a case of "Suicide by cop?" How about the American ideal of "Give me liberty or give me death," do you agree?

[mgb]

I think martyrdom is ridiculous. Pretty much the last resort of the hopeless.

[Geoff]

And those trapped by their own logic. Those who would rather die in this life to secure paradise in the next (eg those who were burned rather than recant in the middle ages).

If you accept their set of rules as 'truth', it is a logical approach to the problem.

-Geoff

[Shai Gar]

Your contract will never hold up with a judge. baseball bat to the abdomen then

[CreativeChaos]

There are two sides to assisted suicide. I am for it, but it must be carefully regulated. IF this became a common practice, how many elderly would began to feel "obligated" to choose death just becuase they are becoming a "burden" to society or thier loved ones, not because they are ready or want to die? The pendulum could swing in that direction. The object is to place a high value on life. If that value degenerates, then abuses can occur.

[Claverhouse]

Very high-minded sentiments all round, however life isn't that sacred, particularly when the sentiments come illogically from animal-eaters and also atheists who have no absolutely need for a moral credo...

Apart from the fact that millions of creatures are dying, often in extreme and unnecessary agony, all the time: helping a few of them along for a justified revenge scarcely matters so long as you take no pleasure in the act and do not do it for gain of any kind.



Sredni Vashtar went forth,
His thoughts were red thoughts and his teeth were white.
His enemies called for peace, but he brought them death.
Sredni Vashtar the Beautiful.



Claverhouse :ph34r:


[ Saki ]

[songbird36]

So we're ok to kill plants to eat, but not animals, is that right?

On what basis would you put that argument?