Practical Solution #1: The Death List

[Hustler]

By popular demand, I give you the Death List. I can't say that it'll ever be implemented, but I can say I'm crossing my fingers. In this incarnation of the Death List, we are voting people into restriction. These are the most prolific non-INTP posters at INTP Central, in that they have the most posts of said group and are currently active. Of these 20, the top five vote-getters would (hypothetically, or really if I were able to make tyrannical decisions here) be confined to posting in the Vomitorium and Purgatory only. As this is a checkbox poll, you may vote for as many as you like. Which among these disruptive villains is most deserving of being excluded from the forum proper?

[ApeTheDog]

Why only non-INTP's?

[Lurker]

Seawolf399

[Hustler]

Why only non-INTP's?

Because we're addressing the non-INTP problem at INTP Central. We can tackle the other problems some other time.

[ApeTheDog]

This is random and arbitrary.

Why five, not four or six? Why these people - there are many others.

[Hustler]

This is random and arbitrary.

Why five, not four or six? Why these people - there are many others.Shit, Ape, you could have brought these points up hours ago in the other thread where it was all getting discussed. Would you rather it be six? Fine, we can do six. Yeah, let's do six. Good idea.

[ApeTheDog]

That doesn't answer why it's five.

You don't know why to pick five. You don't know why these people either. That's my whole point. It's arbitrary and random.

Whether or not I give the random, arbitrary number or you do makes no difference. It's all biased. NF'ey. Which is ironic in this case.

[Hustler]

You don't know why to pick five. You don't know why these people either. That's my whole point. It's arbitrary and random.

Whether or not I give the random, arbitrary number or you do makes no difference. It's all biased. NF'ey. Which is ironic in this case.
It's not arbitrary, Ape. It's the most prolific non-INTP posters who are currently active. The reason to confine them is to address the problem of having too much of a non-INTP influence present on the forum. Maybe you don't agree with the premise and that's fine, but this is the Death List and you can vote or not vote. Five was arbitrary and basically intuitively derived (and agreed upon as being a reasonable number), but I would certainly be willing to hear your case for a different number of people being confined. It has to be enough to make a difference but, at the same time, in the interest of striving for moderation, we don't want the number to be too high (well, some people do, but that's them).

[demagogic_schizoid]

It's not arbitrary, Ape. It's the most prolific non-INTP posters who are currently active.

so Ivy is an INTP?

[Lurker]

so Ivy is an INTP?

She is now, remember? However, you are not.

[booyalab]

so Ivy is an INTP?

no, he's just discriminating against people that don't completely suck. "jk"

[Hustler]

so Ivy is an INTP?
That's right. She was voted an honorary INTP by the people of INTP Central. As such, she's exempt. You really suck huge ass at paying attention, huh? This was already said. More than once.

[demagogic_schizoid]

She is now, remember? However, you are not.

woo can we have a thread on my type? I've been waiting for this kind of attention for years. you can even start a poll if you like. ;)

[ApeTheDog]

Who is on the list is arbitrary as well. How is deciding who is prolific and who is not, not arbitrary? It is.

I don't like random and arbitrary measures, so I won't vote.

Mind, I am not saying others can't, or shouldn't. I'm just one person, and I have impossible morals.

[demagogic_schizoid]

That's right. She was voted an honorary INTP by the people of INTP Central. As such, she's exempt. You really suck huge ass at paying attention, huh? This was already said. More than once.

the very fact that she's an honorary intp necessarily disqualifies her from being a real one. so no, she's not an INTP, and calling her one is pretty stupid seeing as she calls herself IXFJ on her profile, and I imagine voting her as an honororary INTP was some kind of joke, not evidence that people seriously believe she is one. how the hell would an INTP mist-type themselves as an IXFJ? you just exempted her due to personal feelings, which undermines the thread.

[Krill]

Who is on the list is arbitrary as well. How is deciding who is prolific and who is not, not arbitrary? It is.

Unless it's the twenty most prolific, which can be determined by examining post counts and posts per day.

[Hustler]

the very fact that she's an honorary intp means she's not a real one. so no, she's not an INTP, and calling her one is pretty stupid seeing as she calls herself IXFJ on her profile, and I imagine voting her as an honororary INTP was some kind of joke, not evidence that people seriously believe she is one. how the hell would an INTP mist-type themselves as an IXFJ? you just exempted her due to personal feelings, which undermines the thread.
The title of honorary INTP carries with it all privileges of the title of INTP. It also exempts you from restrictions placed upon non-INTPs. There were no objections to her exemption during the discussion of practical solutions, and you're a little late to object now, after the poll has been made, not that it would matter anyway, because I'm pretty sure you'd have been overruled by a large number of INTPs.

[ApeTheDog]

Unless it's the twenty most prolific, which can be determined by examining post counts and posts per day.

That would indeed no longer be arbitrary - but, I wonder if that is how it went. I don't believe it did.

Yes, Ivy being exempt is also a very emotional, NF-like, thing for us to do.

[Hustler]

Who is on the list is arbitrary as well. How is deciding who is prolific and who is not, not arbitrary? It is.

I don't like random and arbitrary measures, so I won't vote.

Mind, I am not saying others can't, or shouldn't. I'm just one person, and I have impossible morals.
Your decision not to vote is arbitrarily based on things you elect to consider arbitrary through your arbitrary "impossible morals."

[Hustler]

That would indeed no longer be arbitrary - but, I wonder if that is how it went. I don't believe it did.

Yes, Ivy being exempt is also a very emotional, NF-like, thing for us to do.
They're listed in order of postcount, for fuck's sake.. They're all of the people who have posted in the last 4 months [and thus active, current nuisances in need of pruning] who are non-INTPs. And also zeitgeist and Seawolf, because everyone knows they're really not INTPs, despite what their profiles claim. Ivy, by virtue of being an honorary INTP (as determined by the users of this very site) is exempt, as that carries with it full INTP status.

[demagogic_schizoid]

The title of honorary INTP carries with it all privileges of the title of INTP.

so how did she get it? how many members voted for her? was the vote taken as seriously as this one is? the atmosphere was quite different then to now, I imagine. how can you garuantee those who voted for her would be more than would vote for her on this poll? if more voted to take away those rights (and then some) than voted to grant them to her, then surely the title of honorary INTP would have to be overruled by the same public which voted for her to have it in the first place. Or was there some stipulation at the time that the title was irrevokable?

[ApeTheDog]

Yes, indeed, you are quite right about this. We shall compromise on me not voting, and, with me not being able to influence what gets done on this site - me not doing anything else much.

[Hustler]

so how did she get it? how many members voted for her? was the vote taken as seriously as this one is? the atmosphere was quite different then to now, I imagine. how can you garuantee those who voted for her would be more than would vote for her on this poll? if more voted to take away those rights (and then some) than voted to grant them to her, then surely the title of honorary INTP would have to be overruled by the same public which voted for her to have it in the first place. Or was there some stipulation at the time that the title was irrevokable?
You're several months too late. You really should try to pay closer attention if you want to participate. She was voted an honorary INTP, and the title carries with it all privileges of being an INTP. You'll just have to live with it as having been a democratic decision of your INTP Central peers. Maybe it could be revoked, maybe not. I don't really know, but I do know it hasn't been revoked as of this poll and, as such, she is not eligible to be on the Death List.

[demagogic_schizoid]

You're several months too late. You really should try to pay closer attention if you want to participate. She was voted an honorary INTP, and the title carries with it all privileges of being an INTP. You'll just have to live with it as having been a democratic decision of your INTP Central peers. Maybe it could be revoked, maybe not. I don't really know, but I do know it hasn't been revoked as of this poll and, as such, she is not eligible to be on the Death List.

there are no rueles as to who is eligible other than the ones you've invented. if you decide that Seawolf and zeitgeist are eligible, then you can decide that Ivy is eligible. if you don't respect people's own decision to call themselves INTP's, why do you place such great importance on the votes of a few members to make Ivy an honorary INTP - such importance that you actually take measures to stop those same voters voting on her status again? it seems pretty strange to me that someone can acheive priveliges demcoratically, but not lose them demcoratically. you know she's not actually an INTP, and you know that this poll which made her one only has the importance regarding this thread that you yourself place on it.

[Madrigal]

Oh DS. You're such a lucky kid there are self-proclaimed non-INTPs to take the heat for forum suckage.

[Hustler]

there are no rueles as to who is eligible other than the ones you've invented. if you decide that Seawolf and zeitgeist are eligible, then you can decide that Ivy is eligible. if you don't respect people's own decision to call themselves INTP's, why do you place such great importance on the votes of a few members to make Ivy an honorary INTP - such importance that you actually take measures to stop those same voters voting on her status again? it seems pretty strange to me that someone can acheive priveliges demcoratically, but not lose them demcoratically. you know she's not actually an INTP, and you know that this poll which made her one only has the importance regarding this thread that you yourself place on it.
More meritless objections and, once again, too late. Try chiming in earlier, when things are actually being hashed out, not when they're actually being voted on. You were around, online, making posts. You could have said something prior to this thread, but you didn't. I think you would find the majority of people think that zeitgeist and Seawolf399 should be included in this list. The reason you're airing these objections is because you're just not very aware, just like you weren't aware of the previous discussion regarding Ivy's honorary INTP status and a great many other things. In other words, your objections are invalid until you take the time to inform yourself and not be so ignorant (and so late).

Next time, be punctual and informed and I'll surely consider your opinion. For now, you're just blowing hot air.

[Hustler]

Oh DS. You're such a lucky kid there are self-proclaimed non-INTPs to take the heat for forum suckage.
Now that you mention it... he did make himself out to be a non-INTP for most of his tenure here at INTP Central.[/bloodthirsty tyrant]

[Madrigal]

Now that you mention it... he did make himself out to be a non-INTP for most of his tenure here at INTP Central.[/bloodthirsty tyrant]

At least give him (dis)honorary Non-INTP status.

[demagogic_schizoid]

More meritless objections and, once again, too late. Try chiming in earlier, when things are actually being hashed out, not when they're actually being voted on. You were around, online, making posts. You could have said something prior to this thread, but you didn't.

I had absolutely no interest in the topic until this thread, and I could hardly have been expected to forsee the future even if I had. Do you expect to me to have pre-emptively argued for Ivy to be included on a list I didn't know was going to be compiled? I don't object to Ivy's honorary status, if she was on the list I wouldn't vote for her anyway, but my arguments still stand, and I don't think you've dealt with the arguments in my last post, just attacked my timing.


I think you would find the majority of people think that zeitgeist and Seawolf399 should be included in this list.

The majority of people? The majority of what people? The majority of voters on this poll? Of all users active in the last month? Are non-intp's included? Probably, the majority of people don't care, but that's just my speculation, and it's irrelevant anyway. I didn't object to them being on the list however, so it's an irrelevant point; I simply objected to the inconsistency. Maybe the majority of people would have voted for Ivy on this list. Could this not mean that the previous vote for her to be an honorary INTP would be overruled? Now it might not have happened, but due to your subjective decision (and it was subjective because you declared zeitgeist and Seawolf to be non-intp's regardless of their profiles) we'll never know.

[Lurker]

Now that you mention it... he did make himself out to be a non-INTP for most of his tenure here at INTP Central.[/bloodthirsty tyrant]

Damn straight he did!

[Hustler]

I had absolutely no interest in the topic until this thread, and I could hardly have been expected to forsee the future even if I had.
I guess that's too bad for you. Now you can vote in the Death List or get out of the way.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Damn straight he did!

OMG an INTP changing their mind? a 19 year old who'd just discovered MBTI being unsure of his type? never!

use that T woman, I know you can if you try.

[ApeTheDog]

I've changed my mind.

Ivy is not on the list because she does not deserve to be. Others are on this list who do not deserve to be on it, either, in my opinion. But if a poll shows them out to be, then so be it - it is not one persons decision to make.

The purpose of this forum is for INTP's to have a place where they can talk about things that matter to them, and to do so in ways they enjoy doing. That's the premise of the forum, and it's one that all who register at it agree with, whether it's stipulated or not (I don't know if it is, but, it can't be denied that it's implied to be known).

If the entire forum agrees that there is a problem, and that seems to be the concensus here, then that premise is breached. It is not our fault when others do not stick to the agreement. It should not be our cross to bear, either.

[Lurker]

OMG an INTP changing their mind? a 19 year old who'd just discovered MBTI being unsure of his type? never!

use that T woman, I know you can if you try.

Jesus, just fuck off. Please. Why are you always sticking your nose in everything?

[demagogic_schizoid]

Jesus, just fuck off. Please. Why are you always sticking your nose in everything?

funny how if I'm "always sticking my nose in", that you never had a problem with me until about an hour ago when I asked if you wished you were a man. if you're so overly sensitive, you probably have some issues to resolve - don't take it out on me.

[Lurker]

funny how if I'm "always sticking my nose in", that you never had a problem with me until about an hour ago when I asked if you wished you were a man. if you're so overly sensitive, you probably have some issues to resolve - don't take it out on me.

It wasn't the question itself, it was the way you framed it. Anyway, let's drop it.

Edit: I can read between the lines; you've expressed your opinion of homosexuals before, so I drew a logical conculsion.

[JAVO]

I vote for none. I don't see this supposed "problem."

[zhang_bob]

I voted for the 3 people who had no votes to make Hustler happy, as he is starting to make me depressed. ;)

[Randomnity]

If you want to start voting on the banning/jailing of members who you feel are bringing the quality of the forum down, fine.

Just don't pretend it's a non-INTP thing. It's a sucky member thing. And as such there are a lot of INTPs who could be added to that list, and many non-INTPs who could be removed.

There is only one person on your list who I feel has nothing to offer and drags down the quality of the forum (and I still don't think he should be banned/punished arbitrarily). The rest I see no problem with.

If you truly wanted to see the opinions of INTPs, you would have added a protest or 'don't ban anyone' option instead of implying that everyone here approves of your melodramatic "final solution", or indeed that everyone here sees a problem at all.

[PonderBee]

As this is a checkbox poll, you may vote for as many as you like. Which among these disruptive villains is most deserving of being excluded from the forum proper?

I'd prefer to vote for one member as many times as I like :ph34r:

[563 740]

A real man would include himself on the list.

[cjs55]

This should probably be more of a case by case issue.

It is certainly a non-INTP problem, but I think the arbitrary nature of voting goes against the fact that there is only need to deal with problems like this when they are apparent and obvious.

I did vote for one person.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Edit: I can read between the lines; you've expressed your opinion of homosexuals before, so I drew a logical conculsion.

so you say drop it, and then you add in a comment accusing me of being homophobic later? presumably hoping I won't read it, so it will go unchallenged and look true? I don't have an opinion of homosexuals as a group. I've had experiences with homosexuals I've met and I've made observations on them, and tried to compare them with other people's experiences. I don't think it's easy for the average person with a "straight" lifestyle to be close friends with the average homosexual. However, I don't think homosexuality is morally worse then heterosexuality. Glad that's cleared up.

[ajblaise]

How is meshou in the top 6? She's one of my favorite posters and she's probably cooler than all of you.

[Hustler]

How is meshou in the top 6? She's one of my favorite posters and she's probably cooler than all of you.
Probably because some people don't know who Heleuiski is. Well, wait, I guess that'd still leave meshou in the top 6. Probably because some people don't remember how annoying CreativeChaos is. Or maybe because they've been bamboozled by the likes of Shimpei.

[Hustler]

The poll closes today, so be sure to get your votes in if you want your voice of reason to be heard. 34 reporting already, though, is a pretty impressive turnout for such a deplorable poll.

[Architectonic]

Your selection criteria appears to have a flaw.

[Hustler]

Your selection criteria appears to have a flaw.
Is the flaw that you just changed your type from xxxP to INTP in order to post in this forum? Because, you know, that's not good (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=17977).

[ajblaise]

so is this really going to happen or what?

[Hustler]

so is this really going to happen or what?
Everything I wrote in the opening post stands.

[Architectonic]

Is the flaw that you just changed your type from xxxP to INTP in order to post in this forum?

No. You have failed to notice the nuances of my argument.
Perhaps that is because you are not iNtuitive enough? Regardless, I'll grant you another attempt.

[airjaw]

There's nothing like verbal sparring. Another night on INTPc.

[SolitaryWalker]

The poll closes today, so be sure to get your votes in if you want your voice of reason to be heard. 34 reporting already, though, is a pretty impressive turnout for such a deplorable poll.

Yes deplorable poll it was indeed. I am puzzled as to why you're making all of these value judgment after you've inveighed INFJs for doing this. Even more so that you're talking about what should be done on INTPc as there is an objective sense of good/bad, right/wrong after you've professed yourself a moral relativist here http://www.intpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4255

But I am not surprised that you're not following a logical pattern, you dont really need for things to be logical in order to concoct a piece of sophistry, you only need for them to seem logical.

[Ferrus]

The term INTP has been sullied anyway. Those accused of not being INTPs are invariably the unpopular ones (although INTPs and unpopularity are far from mutally exclusive) whilst those who have social capital here are beyond reproach for their INTPness.

Why is Madrigal more of an INTP than Seawolf399 - at least Seawolf has proven himself capable of measured and logical ratiocination, as opposed to the emotional fatuity and ad hominem attacks that comprise Madrigal's outputs. Even Hustler, as no less a member as Xander noted, is displaying disturbingly unINTP tendencies here.

One of Hustler's contentions is that the non-INTPs disturb the flow of the INTP conversation. But Hustler and his sidekick Madrigal here are both equally culpable of performing actions baffling to an INTP and in Madrigal's case she has manifestly displayed an inability to debate on a similar level with INTPs. In contrast Seawolf may, or indeed may not be INTP but his recondite and logical posts on this forum are of greater intellectual merit than either of the two of your have posted and have been met with good, solid correspondence with INTPs. Why should he go?

[SolitaryWalker]

The term INTP has been sullied anyway. Those accused of not being INTPs are invariably the unpopular ones (although INTPs and unpopularity are far from mutally exclusive) whilst those who have social capital here are beyond reproach for their INTPness.

Why is Madrigal more of an INTP than Seawolf399 - at least Seawolf has proven himself capable of measured and logical ratiocination, as opposed to the emotional fatuity and ad hominem attacks that comprise Madrigal's outputs. Even Hustler, as no less a member as Xander noted, is displaying disturbingly unINTP tendencies here.

I suspect that Hustler is not an INTP at all, he certainly acts Jish on the board, his behavior is definitely more reminiscent of a typical INTJ than a typical INTP.

[Geoff]

I suspect that Hustler is not an INTP at all, he certainly acts Jish on the board, his behavior is definitely more reminiscent of a typical INTJ than a typical INTP.

What amuses me is the number of people who believe they are INTP who would be insulted to have their type questioned like this.

Like it's "special" and better than all the rest. Funny to compare this with the MBTI system itself, which is built around all types being equally valid and just contrasting their preferences.

Those who embody what an INTP stands for in terms of preferences, would.. I think.. enjoy considering what other types they could be, because it is a system they can play with, consider what their real preferences are.. and refuse to be bound by a rigid definition of what they are.

-Geoff

[Ferrus]

Like it's "special" and better than all the rest.
I noticed this too, maybe I should start a schizotypal personality disorder board and perhaps that category too will become special.

[SolitaryWalker]

What amuses me is the number of people who believe they are INTP who would be insulted to have their type questioned like this.

Like it's "special" and better than all the rest. Funny to compare this with the MBTI system itself, which is built around all types being equally valid and just contrasting their preferences.

Those who embody what an INTP stands for in terms of preferences, would.. I think.. enjoy considering what other types they could be, because it is a system they can play with, consider what their real preferences are.. and refuse to be bound by a rigid definition of what they are.

-Geoff

No there is nothing special about being an INTP. I apologize if my message implied otherwise, I had no intention of making that claim. Keirsey has sinned against the whole notion of temperament that has been invented by Jung. Temperament and personality must be kept in seperate accounts, and D.K has fused them together. INTPness is just the subconcious tendencies that are immanent within our psyche, yet the way our personality manifests is not entirely contingent upon them. They may have a great influence on that, though again our personality is not our type, it is just the way that we use our type to become who we are.

[Hustler]

I am puzzled as to why...[snip]
No surprise there. Your Ni can't grasp it, so it leaves you in puzzlement. Next question.

[Hustler]

But Hustler and his sidekick Madrigal here are both equally culpable of performing actions baffling to an INTP and in Madrigal's case she has manifestly displayed an inability to debate on a similar level with INTPs.
Holy shit! Not only do I have a sidekick, but my sidekick is Madrigal!?

[attila_the_hunny]

I don't think it's easy for the average person with a "straight" lifestyle to be close friends with the average homosexual.

:mellow:

[ajblaise]

I don't think it's easy for the average person with a "straight" lifestyle to be close friends with the average homosexual.

Why not? I'm very close friends with my gay cousin (he used to be on All My Children, some shitty soap) and pretty close friend's with my buddies gay roommate.

Unless you're homophobic, what's the big deal?

[attila_the_hunny]

Why not? I'm very close friends with my gay cousin (he used to be on All My Children, some shitty soap) and pretty close friend's with my buddies gay roommate.


Ha, my granny watches that soap.

[Ferrus]

Holy shit! Not only do I have a sidekick, but my sidekick is Madrigal!?
Well, one of the sidekicks you pretend to hate and argue with but actually love. Like Robin's homoerotic relationship with Batman.

[Lurker]

:mellow:

Yeah, that's a priceless quote and perfect example of what I was talking about.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Why not? I'm very close friends with my gay cousin (he used to be on All My Children, some shitty soap) and pretty close friend's with my buddies gay roommate.

Unless you're homophobic, what's the big deal?

demagogic_schizoid: Average X is Y
ajbaise: Some X is Z.

:zzz:

[demagogic_schizoid]

Yeah, that's a priceless quote and perfect example of what I was talking about.

Unless you're psychic, I don't think that's possible. It was a reply to your comment.

[NoahFence]

demagogic_schizoid: Average X is Y

I'd like to see the numbers you averaged together. I think what you did was assume you know what all the numbers are by noticing one or two here and there that seemed to support your preconceived theory, dropped the pin on the chart where you thought it should be from your own opinions, and patted yourself on the back for being smart enough to save time by skipping any actual data gathering and math.

You seem to like using words like "average" because they are vague enough that you can defend it by saying "Well I wasn't talking about that case." This allows you to make bold declarative statements, for which you can later say "no, that was clearly not a bold declarative statement and you're an idiot for saying it was."

I don't mind talking about trends with insufficient data, no INTP needs the whole chart filled out to see a pattern, but I see a trend, an average impression if you will, in many of your arguments that you've taken it too far and put too much stock in your estimates, then get pissed off when people question it.

[demagogic_schizoid]

I'd like to see the numbers you averaged together. I think what you did was assume you know what all the numbers are by noticing one or two here and there that seemed to support your preconceived theory, dropped the pin on the chart where you thought it should be from your own opinions, and patted yourself on the back for being smart enough to save time by skipping any actual data gathering and math.

You seem to like using words like "average" because they are vague enough that you can defend it by saying "Well I wasn't talking about that case." This allows you to make bold declarative statements, for which you can later say "no, that was clearly not a bold declarative statement and you're an idiot for saying it was."

I don't mind talking about trends with insufficient data, no INTP needs the whole chart filled out to see a pattern, but I see a trend, an average impression if you will, in many of your arguments that you've taken it too far and put too much stock in your estimates, then get pissed off when people question it.

I accept that, but you should look at the context of my statement. Lurker thought I held a certain position, so I simply clairified that position for her. I didn't explain all my reasoning, as I'd done that elsewhere on the original thread where she'd picked up her wrong impression, and I didn't think it was necessary to start bringing up the whole complex discussion on this thread. If you really want me to find the posts where I explained my reasoning, I will look them up for you. And in any case, I thought it was quite clear that I was only talking from personal experience here, and it's not something you can prove either way. However, I don't think ajblaise objection was worth much. Firstly, he can't claim to represent the average straight male when he is an INTP. He didn't try to link his example to anything either, he just jumped in with some anectdotal evidence as if that proved something. He also seemed to be demanding further explanation without even thinking about what I was saying. I suppose you should also know that immediately prior to that post I'd just had a 4 hour argument with ajblaise and I had just judged him to be one of the worst posters I'd ever encountered, so I wasn't particularly in a mood to discuss homosexuality with him, when IMO he is someone who doesn't even respond to reasoning or logic when you try to give him the time of day.