Virginia Tech shooting

[Anonymous]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/16/vtech.shooting/index.html

Not sure if this has been posted somewhere else yet or not, but I didn't see it. Anyway, I've heard some sources saying that the guy had an assault rifle, which would make sense, as I can't imagine a hand gun killing 31 people and wounding 29 others.

[Turboflame]

I was watching the news that said he had 2 9mm semi-automatic handguns

I wonder what set the guy off

[cut the grass]

omg

[Anonymous]

I was watching the news that said he had 2 9mm semi-automatic handguns

I wonder what set the guy off

Supposedly something about his ex gf cheating on him, but that could just be rumor. Although I wouldn't be too surprised if being cheated upon would set a person who already has issues off.

[omnirook]

I was just reading the news, and I thought that I would post a link. But I see that the Forum is aware.

What makes people do such things?

[omnirook]

Supposedly something about his ex gf cheating on him, but that could just be rumor. Although I wouldn't be too surprised if being cheated upon would set a person who already has issues off.

They'd have to be some "issues!"

[attila_the_hunny]

I remember when I heard it was in Virginia I was faintly concerned, then I found out it was far away from anyone I know...so I didn't even semi give a shit anymore. I got reprimanded from a fellow student and a teacher. Oh well. Too bad. Life sucks.

Hate the world? Wanna die? Go out with a big bang!

[Anonymous]

I remember when I heard it was in Virginia I was faintly concerned, then I found out it was far away from anyone I know...so I didn't even semi give a shit anymore. I got reprimanded from a fellow student and a teacher. Oh well. Too bad. Life sucks.

Hate the world? Wanna die? Go out with a big bang!

Yeah, I agree for the most part. If it's no one I know, than I can't bring myself to care. If I did, I might as well be getting flustered about people all over the world who are getting killed, and then I'd be a 24/7 mess.

[zhang_bob]

I wonder how many shootings it needs for America to seriously consider banning guns?

[Turboflame]

I wonder how many shootings it needs for America to seriously consider banning guns?

The shootings would continue whether guns are banned or not

In this case the suspect carried guns without a permit and entered a "gun-free" zone, yet that didn't stop him

In Columbine, the two teens involved broke over 30 gun laws, yet that didn't stop it from happening

If someone wants a gun, they can get a gun just as someone who wants drugs, can get drugs, legal or not.

[Notsweetynice]

I wonder how many shootings it needs for America to seriously consider banning guns?

Believe it or not some people are actually using tragedies such as this as examples of why we need more people carrying guns. The idea is that if everyone had a weapon then gun weilding sickos could just be gunned down by a bystander. Somehow I don't think that having every other person carrying a loaded weapon would make for a nice country...but maybe I'm off on that one.

[starla]

I wonder how many shootings it needs for America to seriously consider banning guns?

If America banned guns, people would just import them from elsewhere and trade them on the black market. I was recently in Malaysia, where owning a gun can land you in prison for life. One of my coworkers there was robbed in his home by four men with guns. According to the locals I was talking to, criminals come from Indonesia on boats, rob people for a couple days, and then go home.

[Kanamori]

It would take many more shootings for them to consider it a real option.;)

And yes, this sucks. It's very crappy that anyone ever thinks they have to pick up a gun and start shooting random people, blaming the world for their problems and taking it out on other people in a blaze of self-important glory, when they snap.

[Turboflame]

Believe it or not some people are actually using tragedies such as this as examples of why we need more people carrying guns. The idea is that if everyone had a weapon then gun weilding sickos could just be gunned down by a bystander. Somehow I don't think that having every other person carrying a loaded weapon would make for a nice country...but maybe I'm off on that one.

Yeah, both sides of the gun debate prey on whenever a tragedy like this happens. The NRA will say "If students / teachers were armed they could have shot him and this tradgedy would be avoided" while gun-control groups will say "If the gunman couldn't get a gun then this tradgedy could have been avoided".

Both of which aren't entirely true. I wouldn't trust lethal weapons with stressed, sometimes drunk / high, often horomonally imbalanced students and as said before the gunman could have just gotten the gun illegally.

[Notsweetynice]

as said before the gunman could have just gotten the gun illegally.

True. There are countries however where guns are illegal AND murders are much lower than the US....like France. I know somebody mentioned Malaysia as having pleny of illegal fire arms so I don't know, but in France crime is high and they have their problems, but these kinds of fairly common murders that we're so used to here just don't happen in France. I have French relatives and they are scared to come to the US because of guns...I kid you not.

[sandwich]

Or we could have better security? In some countries every public building will have a guard stationed at the entrance. It's somewhat inconvenient, but how many schools have had shootings just this year? Schools should not be dangerous places.

[Turboflame]

True. There are countries however where guns are illegal AND murders are much lower than the US....like France. I know somebody mentioned Malaysia as having pleny of illegal fire arms so I don't know, but in France crime is high and they have their problems, but these kinds of fairly common murders that we're so used to here just don't happen in France. I have French relatives and they are scared to come to the US because of guns...I kid you not.

Yeah gun bans seems to be kind of a hit or miss depending on the culture. I know Japan has done wonders with it's efforts to get rid of it's guns.

But I don't think it would work in the US, too many guns, too many of them owned by thugs or crazed rednecks who would turn them over "when you pry them out of my dead cold hands". Plus there are a significant number of people who do use / need guns for self defense.

Your relatives shouldn't be scared of the guns though. I own several myself and I enjoy occasional target shooting. It's actually really fun, I live in a redneck town so pretty much everyone owns firearms.

[zhang_bob]

If someone wants a gun, they can get a gun just as someone who wants drugs, can get drugs, legal or not.
But what make you so sure the U.S will still have one of the highest gun crime rates, for a developed country?



Believe it or not some people are actually using tragedies such as this as examples of why we need more people carrying guns. They must be the the same people who think making more bombs is going to make the world a safer place.:ph34r:



I was recently in Malaysia, where owning a gun can land you in prison for life. One of my coworkers there was robbed in his home by four men with guns. According to the locals I was talking to, criminals come from Indonesia on boats, rob people for a couple days, and then go home.Do you really think it is fair to compare backwards country's crime rate with the richest country in the world?

[starla]

Do you really think it is fair to compare backwards country's crime rate with the richest country in the world?

1. What makes you think Malaysia's backwards?

2. I made no mention of crime rate. I simply pointed out that criminalizing gun ownership does not get rid of guns and violence.

[Veradicere]

Yeah, I agree for the most part. If it's no one I know, than I can't bring myself to care. If I did, I might as well be getting flustered about people all over the world who are getting killed, and then I'd be a 24/7 mess.

Yeah, Virginia may as well be darfur as far as I'm concerned. It's an admittedly deplorable attitude, but I can't force myself to feel something about it.

Maybe it's some sort of defense mechanism against all the terrible shit that happens to people on a day to day basis on this planet. It's why I don't watch the news...there's been time I've actually sobbed watching the news. I'd rather avoid having that kind of emotion about something I'm powerless over.

[Turboflame]

But what make you so sure the U.S will still have one of the highest gun crime rates, for a developed country?


Gun control doesn't work in the US. Look at DC for example, they banned handguns for around 30 years (recently lifted) and had the toughest gun control laws in the US, But their crime rates still kept rising, had a bunch of "crime emergencies" and there were / are gun crimes happening almost every day there.

What makes you so sure that the rest of the country won't have similar results?

[booyalab]

Gun control doesn't work in the US. Look at DC for example, they banned handguns for around 30 years (recently lifted) and had the toughest gun control laws in the US, But their crime rates still kept rising, had a bunch of "crime emergencies" and there were / are gun crimes happening almost every day there.


Not only did DC's homicide rate continue to rise after the ban in '76, it rose 200% in the next 15 years! The U.S. rate was 12%

[airjaw]

I'm sickened at the University's response to the shooting. They said that the reason they didn't inform students was because they thought the gunman had left the campus. How could they possibly have known that? There was no evidence to assume that he did leave. Also, they should have called the police after the first shooting, in hope of catching the shooter.

I'm sick of them defending themselves. They made what they thought was the right decision at the time, but they were horribly wrong and 29 more people paid the price with their lives. They should at least admit their mistake.

[meshou]

This is horrific.

I feel shitty for thinking this, but I know that as a fallout from this, they're going to do something stupid like make you show your ID to get into a building or something. Just something dumb that doesn't make anyone safe but does treat everyone there like a potential shooter.

[Meliora]

I've heard tell that it was an asian foreign student. I told one of my friends and he said, "Damn, he ain't gonna be in Rush Hour 3!"

I couldn't stop laughing for 2 minutes.:ph34r:

[lbloom]

I feel shitty for thinking this, but I know that as a fallout from this, they're going to do something stupid like make you show your ID to get into a building or something.

A student shooter would have ID.

[Serotonin]

Columbine.
Kip Kinkel.
The Amish school in Pennsylvania.
That Tech in Canada (heh, where Shady called him a "liberal homofag terrorist").
And now.
Those killerfucks like teh schools.

My theory of what may have been happening in the killers' heads.
- Opposition to the school system. "Infecting our children's minds with poisonous ideologies!"
- "I want to destroy something beautiful/innocent, because I am not".
- "I want people to take notice of me and have a strong emotional reaction to something I do, even if it is hate. Killing kids/young people is the way to go".
- God complex. "I need to gain control of the world and have people act according to my whim".

[meshou]

A student shooter would have ID.They'd still do it. And I heard (probably wrong) this guy wasn't a student.

[lbloom]

My theory of what may have been happening in the killers' heads.
- Opposition to the school system. "Infecting our children's minds with poisonous ideologies!"
- "I want to destroy something beautiful/innocent, because I am not".
- "I want people to take notice of me and have a strong emotional reaction to something I do, even if it is hate. Killing kids/young people is the way to go".
- God complex. "I need to gain control of the world and have people act according to my whim".

Revenge spilling over?

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/list-of-deadly-us-campus-shootings/38651-2.html

[Krill]

My theory of what may have been happening in the killers' heads.
- Opposition to the school system. "Infecting our children's minds with poisonous ideologies!"
- "I want to destroy something beautiful/innocent, because I am not".
- "I want people to take notice of me and have a strong emotional reaction to something I do, even if it is hate. Killing kids/young people is the way to go".
- God complex. "I need to gain control of the world and have people act according to my whim".

These cases always make me intensely curious as to the motive.

[nfinityi]

They must be the the same people who think making more bombs is going to make the world a safer place.:ph34r:
You'll actually find that in the United States, places with laws that allow for responsible gun ownership, the crime rate actually goes down. No one in their right mind is going to try and rob someone who they think might have a gun.

[FranG]

This is horrific.

I feel shitty for thinking this, but I know that as a fallout from this, they're going to do something stupid like make you show your ID to get into a building or something. Just something dumb that doesn't make anyone safe but does treat everyone there like a potential shooter.

Yeah it seems like this stuff happens every year. Like we're being desensitized to this stuff. First to the bloodshed, then to the constitutional rights violations.

So suspicious these mass shootings are. They again waited hours to even inform anybody of the first shooting on the loudspeakers. They then told the kids to stay indoors. Meanwhile, a killer (or two or three, etc) is walking around gunning people down. And school had been receiving bomb threats too for the past few days, but the police still didn't have a clue. It's all so nice and convenient.

[Ivy]

Yeah it seems like this stuff happens every year. Like we're being desensitized to this stuff. First to the bloodshed, then to the constitutional rights violations.

You have a constitutional right to unfettered access to university buildings?

[joft]

crime goes down in areas where there already isn't much crime (sprawled suburbia)

in trouble areas, adding more guns corresponds very directly to more crimes and deaths. the most extremely violent places on earth are able to remain so because of the availability of weapons. i really don't think that US culture is very conducive to responsible gun ownership, considering a significant percentage of the gun owners are people who want to protect their families from the armies of the antichrist in case the rapture isn't pre-tribulation.

[nfinityi]

You have a constitutional right to unfettered access to university buildings?
I do?! Holy crap! Admissions offices, here I come!

crime goes down in areas where there already isn't much crime (sprawled suburbia)

in trouble areas, adding more guns corresponds very directly to more crimes and deaths. the most extremely violent places on earth are able to remain so because of the availability of weapons.
I thought we were talking about the United States.

I'm sickened at the University's response to the shooting. They said that the reason they didn't inform students was because they thought the gunman had left the campus. How could they possibly have known that? There was no evidence to assume that he did leave. Also, they should have called the police after the first shooting, in hope of catching the shooter.

I'm sick of them defending themselves. They made what they thought was the right decision at the time, but they were horribly wrong and 29 more people paid the price with their lives. They should at least admit their mistake.
It's very easy to say this, being dettached and removed from the situation, but how can we possibly know that we'd do any better were we in there situation?

[FranG]

You have a constitutional right to unfettered access to university buildings?

No I'm talking about when they start making people show "their papers," installing metal detectors, and suscepting us to "frisks and pat downs." This stuff (shootings) is always used as an excuse to put extra controls in place to make us safe, yet this shit continues to happen every year regardless. Despite all the security cameras and all the gun bans etc.


crime goes down in areas where there already isn't much crime (sprawled suburbia)

in trouble areas, adding more guns corresponds very directly to more crimes and deaths. the most extremely violent places on earth are able to remain so because of the availability of weapons.

This is questionable. In high crime areas, there is an endless supply of illegal guns on the streets. Criminals can get guns if they wish.

Although I support gun control, I do think that in urban areas they can be a problem because of the high population density. But I think the alternative is worse. I've known teenage thugs that would not mess with certain people who they thought were thugs like and carrying a gun. They would always pick on someone who looked like an easy mark. Criminals feel tougher with gun laws tighter.

[nfinityi]

No I'm talking about when they start making people show "their papers," installing metal detectors, and suscepting us to "frisks and pat downs." This stuff (shootings) is always used as an excuse to put extra controls in place to make us safe, yet this shit continues to happen every year regardless. Despite all the security cameras and all the gun bans etc.
Seriously. This is almost as aggravating as the thousands of groups already formed on facebook proclaiming their support for VT.

[ataronchronon]

I think there will be a backlash against us introverts. Everyone could start fearing us because my understanding is that society generally regards introverts as unstable. It's kinda sad, but what can we do? Like they say and I so frequently hear, "it's always the quiet ones".

[nottaprettygal]

I think there will be a backlash against us introverts. Everyone could start fearing us because my understanding is that society generally regards introverts as unstable. It's kinda sad, but what can we do? Like they say and I so frequently hear, "it's always the quiet ones".

Yeah. It's like I can't turn on the news today without hearing about the "War on Introverts." It's despicable.

No matter how tragic this may seem, let us remember that on average, more people get killed each year playing football than in school shootings.

[PonderBee]

Gun control doesn't work in the US. Look at DC for example, they banned handguns for around 30 years (recently lifted) and had the toughest gun control laws in the US, But their crime rates still kept rising, had a bunch of "crime emergencies" and there were / are gun crimes happening almost every day there.

What makes you so sure that the rest of the country won't have similar results?


Not only did DC's homicide rate continue to rise after the ban in '76, it rose 200% in the next 15 years! The U.S. rate was 12%

Here is an article that breaks down and rebuts that reasoning:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/14/AR2007031402186.html?nav=rss_opinion/columns

[airjaw]

I do?! Holy crap! Admissions offices, here I come!

I thought we were talking about the United States.

It's very easy to say this, being dettached and removed from the situation, but how can we possibly know that we'd do any better were we in there situation?

I can't say that I would have done a better job, but then again ITS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY to make those type of decisions. Your question is simply ridiculous and absurd and yes, I AM YELLING when I use Caps Locks.

WE HAVE A RIGHT TO QUESTION WHAT WE BELIEVE ARE ERRORS IN JUDGMENT, ESPECIALLY WHEN LIVES ARE AT RISK. You hold people accountable because that is their JOB. It's the university administrator's goddamn responsibility to ensure the safety of his students when this type of thing happens, and I think that he should have made different choices.

By your logic, we shouldn't question the actions of police officers who mistakingly shoot and kill unarmed civilians, or the terribly misguided young man who took all those innocent lives today. Who are we to judge what we would have done in his situation right? The fact is that positions of that kind come with a high-level of responsibility. You hold people accountable for the results of their actions.

[nfinityi]

I can't say that I would have done a better job, but then again ITS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY to make those type of decisions. Your question is simply ridiculous and absurd and yes, I AM YELLING when I use Caps Locks.

WE HAVE A RIGHT TO QUESTION WHAT WE BELIEVE ARE ERRORS IN JUDGMENT, ESPECIALLY WHEN LIVES ARE AT RISK. You hold people accountable because that is their JOB. It's the university administrator's goddamn responsibility to ensure the safety of his students when this type of thing happens, and I think that he should have made different choices.
Okay. They should have. I'm not arguing this. What you were saying is that you were tired of them defending themselves for their mistakes. But that's just it. They were mistakes. Unfortunately, sometimes mistakes have terrible consequences, such as what happened at Virginia Tech, but to punish people for making understandable mistakes isn't going to help the situation any.

The administration did what it did because it believed its students were safe. They didn't fail to act out of malice, they failed to act out of callous disreguard.

We get it. They made mistakes. Okay? We get it. Burning them at the stake isn't going to bring those students back.

And my point stands. You weren't there. You didn't have the information they had, and still don't. You didn't know what information they were lacking and still don't and neither did they. You didn't have any false information they might have received. You don't know what was going through their minds, and your attitude and accusations scream of projection. So drop it already.

By your logic, we shouldn't question the actions of police officers who mistakingly shoot and kill unarmed civilians, or the terribly misguided young man who took all those innocent lives today. Who are we to judge what we would have done in his situation right? The fact is that positions of that kind come with a high-level of responsibility. You hold people accountable for the results of their actions.
Yeah, I'm aware of that thank you. I'm pretty sure there will be repurcussions for the errors. And no, that's not following my line of logic at all.

[Madrigal]

Why do these things happen in the United States? I know that sounds like an ignorant question, but I don't know of other places in the world where people kill people like this. I mean, just for the sake of killing masses. It boggles my mind.

Maybe I'm forgetting other incidents, I think there might have been one in Europe like 10 years ago. Can't be sure.

[nfinityi]

Why do these things happen in the United States? I know that sounds like an ignorant question, but I don't know of other places in the world where people kill people like this. I mean, just for the sake of killing masses. It boggles my mind.

Maybe I'm forgetting other incidents, I think there might have been one in Europe like 10 years ago. Can't be sure.
Idk, but something to do with the culture for sure. Having been to Europe it's just so incredibly different. I don't know what it is about U.S. culture that sparks these things, but it is what it is, I guess.

[airjaw]

Okay. They should have. I'm not arguing this. What you were saying is that you were tired of them defending themselves for their mistakes. But that's just it. They were mistakes. Unfortunately, sometimes mistakes have terrible consequences, such as what happened at Virginia Tech, but to punish people for making understandable mistakes isn't going to help the situation any.

The administration did what it did because it believed its students were safe. They didn't fail to act out of malice, they failed to act out of callous disreguard.

We get it. They made mistakes. Okay? We get it. Burning them at the stake isn't going to bring those students back.

And my point stands. You weren't there. You didn't have the information they had, and still don't. You didn't know what information they were lacking and still don't and neither did they. You didn't have any false information they might have received. You don't know what was going through their minds, and your attitude and accusations scream of projection. So drop it already.

Yeah, I'm aware of that thank you. I'm pretty sure there will be repurcussions for the errors. And no, that's not following my line of logic at all.

Failing to act out of callous disregard doesn't make their mistake any more excusable. Listen, I'm not trying to "burn them at the stake". But you have to wonder about the decisions they made, and hold them accountable at some point. What if they didn't send out any email at all? What if they didn't call the police? What if they did nothing at all? At some point, you have to make a judgment call about their actions or inaction, especially when the lives of people are at stake.

That said, my opinion still stands. You said that they made mistakes, and my point was that they should admit these mistakes and stop covering up for themselves. I'm angry because I feel like they shouldn't be defending their actions at this point. They should be at least questioning if they could have saved 30 lives by doing things differently.

I'm still not sure what your point is, or if you even have one. And no, I'm not judging them nor do I have a personal vendetta. I'm simply concerned about what I perceive as their inability to question themselves, lest this unfortunately happen again.

[airjaw]

Anyways, with all the logical discussion going on, I think we should all perhaps hold off on our natural analysis functions and simply express our grief and support for those who lost their lives and their families.

Brendan/Nemesis, I apologize if I sounded heated just now. The fact is that I'm simply angry (and I believe justifiably so) at what happened. I'm angry that this type of thing even happens in our world. Besides sympathizing with those who were affected, if I can't get angry about it and start demanding some accountability, then I don't know what I'd do. Just live my life as a hollowed-out shell I suppose. There should be many emotions running through us: anger, sadness, grief, frustration, hopelessness. Besides hopelessness, which is more of a negative mindset than just an emotion, anger can be a powerful catalyst towards effecting policies that will hopefully save more lives in the future.

[Rhu]

Why do these things happen in the United States?

There isn't really much that people long for in America. There's no goal. The higher tiers of society are boring yuppies who live for two things: to work and to die, and work tends to be pretty meaningless.

Kids come to realize quickly that none of the values that they are indoctrinated with have any realistic chance of having a payoff in the real world. Kindness gets you trampled on and apathy is its own reward. Hard work is for the poor who exist to be exploited by that which they don't have. Escapism has the biggest cost to benefit ratio, screw everything else.

Except that escapism eventually ends up feeling like work, or a part of the daily routine.

[PonderBee]

Why do these things happen in the United States?

Actually there have been violent sprees at many schools outside of the US. Canada has had a few fairly recently ... Japan, Scotland, that political attack in Russia. I'm sure there are more outside of the US.

[airjaw]

Rhu, I think you hit it right on the head.
There are a lot of changes that need to take place in our society, and while progressive laws are perhaps needed to temporarily save more lives, I can't think of anything more important for our long-term prospects than long-term solutions. I honestly think that America is headed downhill, with our loss of values as the main culprit. People don't even need to be spiritual or religious - but they need a deeply-rooted sense of values, and religion/spirituality can provide this. Heck, even proper parenting and the right role models in school can.

All the education in the world is of no use if you use your knowledge for twisted purposes.

[inspectorgadget]

Why do these things happen in the United States? I know that sounds like an ignorant question, but I don't know of other places in the world where people kill people like this. I mean, just for the sake of killing masses. It boggles my mind.

Maybe I'm forgetting other incidents, I think there might have been one in Europe like 10 years ago. Can't be sure.

Nazi Germany? And if you're only referring to the present...

The Sudan?
Zimbabwe?

We'll move out of Africa... Israel/Palastine?
Iraq?

Ehh... people kill other people all over the place.

Now you may mean compared to other industrialized nations. My only answer to that is the United States is much bigger than all other industrialized nations, so shit is more likely to go down. I also think that we don't do enough to help citizens out when they are under stress, etc. I think that other countries do a better job at looking after the mental health of their citizens than the US does. But that's just a theory... I think that it is clear though that because the United States is much bigger than European countries statistically these things are going to occur more often here than over there, just because there's more people and more chances for it to happen.

We also have gun control laws that are comparatively lax to Europe.

Anyway, senseless killing is not a uniquely American circumstance. It's a problem that human beings have always had to struggle with.

[Ivy]

I think Madrigal was asking about killing with no overarching political/social reasoning, not institutionalized or organized in any way, or for any cause. Which is not to say that institutionalize/organized killing is better, just symptomatic of other malaises.

[nottaprettygal]

There isn't really much that people long for in America. There's no goal.

No. There's a goal. It's to make lots of money.

Didn't you go to Virginia Tech for a year?

[TheUniqueOne]

Rhu, I think you hit it right on the head.
There are a lot of changes that need to take place in our society, and while progressive laws are perhaps needed to temporarily save more lives, I can't think of anything more important for our long-term prospects than long-term solutions. I honestly think that America is headed downhill, with our loss of values as the main culprit. People don't even need to be spiritual or religious - but they need a deeply-rooted sense of values, and religion/spirituality can provide this. Heck, even proper parenting and the right role models in school can.

All the education in the world is of no use if you use your knowledge for twisted purposes.

I think the material constraints of society need to change before we start trying to instill "values"...

[nfinityi]

and religion/spirituality can provide this. Heck, even proper parenting and the right role models in school can.
More likely the other way around.

[airjaw]

I think the material constraints of society need to change before we start trying to instill "values"...

What do you mean?

[nfinityi]

What do you mean?
He means we need to make sure we have our "values" straight before we start preaching them.

[TheUniqueOne]

what i'm saying is that the general structure of our society (a structure that in my mind produces limited upward mobility and cyclic poverty, crime and drug use) needs to change before we start instilling values. someone can have all the positive values in the universe, but if society is not structured to let them implement those values in a meaningful way, overall change will be difficult if not impossible...

[Serotonin]

Guns. People like guns. People will go to great length to defend their right to carry guns. People sometimes end up looking down, and being suspicious of, on people who don't own guns. The end result, possibly, is people looking down on unarmed people who get shot and attributing their misfortune to not packing heat. Hence moving the onus of social responsibility to the unarmed. What a glorious piece of abrogation.

[TheUniqueOne]

Guns. People like guns. People will go to great length to defend their right to carry guns. People sometimes end up looking down, and being suspicious of, on people who don't own guns. The end result, possibly, is people looking down on unarmed people who get shot and attributing their misfortune to not packing heat. Hence moving the onus of social responsibility to the unarmed. What a glorious piece of abrogation.

i'm not sure that would precisely be the result. perhaps it would be better to say that a community has the responsibility to defend its members so a moderately or highly armed populus is better at upholding its responsibilities...

[airjaw]

what i'm saying is that the general structure of our society (a structure that in my mind produces limited upward mobility and cyclic poverty, crime and drug use) needs to change before we start instilling values. someone can have all the positive values in the universe, but if society is not structured to let them implement those values in a meaningful way, overall change will be difficult if not impossible...

Well, I think goes along with the general arguments I was making - that America needs to change its values along with its structure. Once you start changing people's values, then you can start changing the structure.

I'm assuming you're referring to policies such as universal health care, less poverty, corruption.

[Serotonin]

i'm not sure that would precisely be the result. perhaps it would be better to say that a community has the responsibility to defend its members so a moderately or highly armed populus is better at upholding its responsibilities...

That's politician speak. You need to start from the bottom up and outline the responsibilities of the individual before you talk about responsibilities of the populace as a whole. If not, then you get more abrogation.

[TheUniqueOne]

airjaw: ideally, the two would happen at the same time (better structure and better values mutually supporting each other), but if i had to pick one, i would say that changing values without changing structure wouldn't do much of anything, but changing structure might naturally lead to changes in values (the less impoverished, drug addicted, and restricted a populus, the more likely people are to respect human life, etc.)

tonin: every individual has the right to protect their person, papers and effects in whatever way they see fit as long as they do not infringe upon the rights of others. however, the community also has the responsibility to afford these protections to individual (i.e. a person has the liberty to protect himself, but society is also required to provide some form of protection)

[Serotonin]

tonin: every individual has the right to protect their person, papers and effects in whatever way they see fit as long as they do not infringe upon the rights of others. however, the community also has the responsibility to afford these protections to individual (i.e. a person has the liberty to protect himself, but society is also required to provide some form of protection)

Bolded: Must be more specific (i.e. relating to the individual), otherwise you get what happened yesterday again and again. Blaming institutions is a waste of time, since you get indemnity and wriggling forever.

[TheUniqueOne]

okie doke, a person has a right to defend and use their persons, papers, and effects in whatever way they see fit as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others...society is required to intercede on behalf of the individual whenever any sort of infringement happens (although an individual is free to "take matters into his own hands" if he sees fit)

so...a person can walk around completely unarmed in the worst part of Baltimore at 3 a.m. and if anyone violates the sovereignty of his person, society is required to intercede and either prevent the violation or provide some sort of restitution to the individual harmed

[Serotonin]

so...a person can walk around completely unarmed in the worst part of Baltimore at 3 a.m. and if anyone violates the sovereignty of his person, society is required to intercede and either prevent the violation or provide some sort of restitution to the individual harmed

|
v


okie doke, a person has a right to defend and use their persons, papers, and effects in whatever way they see fit as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others

A college tute at 10am is not Baltimore at 3am. That said, Baltimore bitches are responsible for their guns at all times. So is everyone else. Not that they act like it. Maybe police need to make the effort of removing gun shops from high-crime areas only.

What I'm saying, in a nutshell, is that if you own a gun, you are responsible for it at all times. All guns should be licensed. If someone takes it, even steals it from a non-secure place, and kills someone with it, then if your licensed to that gun, then you are still partly responsible for the murder.

[TheUniqueOne]

nothing you said conflicts with what i said...part of owning a gun is owning a gun responsibly

[Serotonin]

nothing you said conflicts with what i said...part of owning a gun is owning a gun responsibly

But does that include permits/licenses?

[TheUniqueOne]

registrations would probably be necessary, but i'm not so sure about measures that restrict who can carry a weapon (except for minors and violent offenders)

[heirophant]

There isn't really much that people long for in America. There's no goal. The higher tiers of society are boring yuppies who live for two things: to work and to die, and work tends to be pretty meaningless.

Kids come to realize quickly that none of the values that they are indoctrinated with have any realistic chance of having a payoff in the real world. Kindness gets you trampled on and apathy is its own reward. Hard work is for the poor who exist to be exploited by that which they don't have. Escapism has the biggest cost to benefit ratio, screw everything else.

Except that escapism eventually ends up feeling like work, or a part of the daily routine.

Amen.

It's not just the USA though.

[booyalab]

I think Madrigal was asking about killing with no overarching political/social reasoning, not institutionalized or organized in any way, or for any cause. Which is not to say that institutionalize/organized killing is better, just symptomatic of other malaises.

I dont know about anyone else but i'm fucking thrilled that I live in a place with sporadic individually initiated shootings of the populace rather than institutionalized shootings of the populace with overarching political/social reasoning.

Why did this shooting happen? Someone decided to be a psychopathic cunt.

[hereandnow]

Restrict firearms further and you'll end up with a plethora of homemade weapons. Force someone to stop buying a handgun and they'll find a grenade. Stop the grenades and someone will manufacture something much more dangerous. You can argue statistics back and forth but human nature? People will always find a way to defend themselves and the harder you push the further people will go to defend their lives.

It's funny how people harp about a police state and then take a path to establishing one.

[omnirook]

Every time something like this happens, the ranting about gun control begins again.

I do not support gun control. Why? Because gun control laws would affect only law abiding citizens. Anyone who did not mind breaking the law would still be able to get a gun - albeit he'd have to pay a lot more for it on the black market than he would at a licensed gun dealer.

Do I own a gun? No. Do I want to own a gun? No. Am I interested in guns? No. I can tell a handgun from a rifle from a machine gun - big deal! So can most 10 year-olds. Other than that, I know nothing about guns.

Why do I mention the above? To make it clear that gun enthusiasts are not the only people who are against gun control.

Gun control would not affect the people whom it is (officially) meant to affect - criminals - and the insane. All that gun control would accomplish would be the disarming of the populace. Let the government be afraid of the people: that is how it should be. The level of contempt that the government has for us now is painfully high: imagine if there no reason whatever to fear any of us!

[Rhu]

I honestly think that America is headed downhill, with our loss of values as the main culprit.
Maybe it's my upbringing and cultural influences, but the very word "values" tends to carry a negative connotation with me. I would much rather see someone come up with a goal that people believe in and that it would take the combined work of an entire society to achieve. Values may or may not follow from that, though without a sense of purpose, there's no real reason for a value to take root.

Finding a goal that doesn't involve killing lots of people is hard, though. Exploration and colonization of the oceans, the moon, and mars might be a more productive idea.



Didn't you go to Virginia Tech for a year?
My first introduction to collegiate culture sent me running to community college after a mere semester. There could be something in the water there that makes people want to kill... I know I thought about it once or twice.


I dont know about anyone else but i'm fucking thrilled that I live in a place with sporadic individually initiated shootings of the populace rather than institutionalized shootings of the populace with overarching political/social reasoning.

Institutions are far more predictable than individuals, and are easier to avoid. I'm not thrilled at the difficulty in eliminating the risk of being shot at by psychopathic cunts.

[Jennywocky]

Failing to act out of callous disregard doesn't make their mistake any more excusable. Listen, I'm not trying to "burn them at the stake". But you have to wonder about the decisions they made, and hold them accountable at some point. What if they didn't send out any email at all? What if they didn't call the police? What if they did nothing at all? At some point, you have to make a judgment call about their actions or inaction, especially when the lives of people are at stake.

That said, my opinion still stands. You said that they made mistakes, and my point was that they should admit these mistakes and stop covering up for themselves. I'm angry because I feel like they shouldn't be defending their actions at this point. They should be at least questioning if they could have saved 30 lives by doing things differently.

Well, I've continued a cursory read of events as they unfolded, and I was beginning to become irritated by all the people bitching about what the administration did wrong.

I've read the president's statement, I've put myself in his shoes mentally and wondered how I would have reasonably responded, and at first glance it doesn't appear that any large gaping errors in judgment were made, based on what steps were taken on the first shooting, the fact that 10K+ students were in transit at the time of the DORM shooting, there was no indication the shooter was around.

If there ARE issues, I think they are more procedural ones, in terms of who has access to buildings, how easy it was for the shooter to chain shut the exit doors, and so on.

While I think people need to be held accountable, most of the people I hear complaining seem to be mostly reacting to the emotional trauma connected with the event -- not really expressing a thoughtful consideration of the events in question or even taking time to reasonably assess would realistically could have been done differently.

And I'm not sure why you or me or someone not even connected to the university would place themselves in a position of being the watchdog of VT, since I think many of the people in position to change policy and do things are also grief-stricken by what happened, dealing with enough guilt over what they "might have done," and are trying to resolve issues themselves right now. Can you imagine what it's like to be someone who has made a career out of caring for younger students, and then having something like this happen? I don't get the impression at this time that anyone is purposefully trying to cover up things, and if there is any of that, part of it is no doubt a backlash against the many "outsiders" who are waving their fingers and acting antagonistically without much understanding of the internal dynamics of what happened. In any case, there are built-in correction and monitoring policies that are taking care of this for you right now.

It's simply funny -- the pattern persists. Every time someone goes bugnuts like this, people have to find someone to blame, that people's intentions were negatively motivated, and assume that they themselves would have done better if they had been in charge. Incompetence / Cost-cutting sometimes has been part of such tragedies, but many of the people involved actually were doing their best, and it was a combination of the ill-intent of the criminal/psychotic mind exploiting flaws that are sometimes inherent in the system.

These flaws play themselves out all the time, even in non-life-critical situations. I work on a development team, I have faith in the skill and foresight of my teammates, and yet no project is ever a 'dunk shot' -- you'd be amazed that, even with the planning and testing we do, how many times we are either t-boned by an outside event or still have to deal with a slew of details that would hinder our progress. Sometimes we make mistakes; sometimes events out of our control or from areas where we reasonably did not focus our limited resources accumulate against us. It's just part of How Things Work.

Yes, we must learn. The recriminations seem mostly to be useless, however.

[omnirook]

Maybe it's my upbringing and cultural influences, but the very word "values" tends to carry a negative connotation with me. I would much rather see someone come up with a goal that people believe in and that it would take the combined work of an entire society to achieve. Values may or may not follow from that, though without a sense of purpose, there's no real reason for a value to take root.

Finding a goal that doesn't involve killing lots of people is hard, though. Exploration and colonization of the oceans, the moon, and mars might be a more productive idea.


"Values" has become an empty slogan - it's a word that politicians toss about, often when trying to villify their opponents. "Our values" (versus "their" values - they, them, those ... people over there) is a favorite of Bush, but, to be fair, he is hardly the only one to make such use of the word. (It's an old trick - creating imaginary bonds by making your victims feel "right to home." Feeling at home creates a false sense of security; security gives birth to loyalty - loyalty that is not earned and, therefore, not deserved.)

There are no values left in our society - and everybody knows it. When the people at the top do not care, no one else cares. The people at the top of American society care only for money. That's it. All else is cynicism and misanthropy. The public remain open to being brutalized because the public have become what is even more valuable to tyrrants than loyalty - dispirited. Stalin beat the Russian people into the ground w/poverty, deprivations of all sorts, and violence. The same effect can be achieved w/a combination of cheap luxury, mindless entertainments, and constant bombardment w/"information" about senseless acts of depraved indifference to life.

In the end, regardless of means, the public become virtually irrelevant - just another "resource" for easy exploitation.

[Ivy]

Several bickeriffic posts moved here (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=21000).

[airjaw]

Well, I've continued a cursory read of events as they unfolded, and I was beginning to become irritated by all the people bitching about what the administration did wrong.

I've read the president's statement, I've put myself in his shoes mentally and wondered how I would have reasonably responded, and at first glance it doesn't appear that any large gaping errors in judgment were made, based on what steps were taken on the first shooting, the fact that 10K+ students were in transit at the time of the DORM shooting, there was no indication the shooter was around.

If there ARE issues, I think they are more procedural ones, in terms of who has access to buildings, how easy it was for the shooter to chain shut the exit doors, and so on.

While I think people need to be held accountable, most of the people I hear complaining seem to be mostly reacting to the emotional trauma connected with the event -- not really expressing a thoughtful consideration of the events in question or even taking time to reasonably assess would realistically could have been done differently.

And I'm not sure why you or me or someone not even connected to the university would place themselves in a position of being the watchdog of VT, since I think many of the people in position to change policy and do things are also grief-stricken by what happened, dealing with enough guilt over what they "might have done," and are trying to resolve issues themselves right now. Can you imagine what it's like to be someone who has made a career out of caring for younger students, and then having something like this happen? I don't get the impression at this time that anyone is purposefully trying to cover up things, and if there is any of that, part of it is no doubt a backlash against the many "outsiders" who are waving their fingers and acting antagonistically without much understanding of the internal dynamics of what happened. In any case, there are built-in correction and monitoring policies that are taking care of this for you right now.

It's simply funny -- the pattern persists. Every time someone goes bugnuts like this, people have to find someone to blame, that people's intentions were negatively motivated, and assume that they themselves would have done better if they had been in charge. Incompetence / Cost-cutting sometimes has been part of such tragedies, but many of the people involved actually were doing their best, and it was a combination of the ill-intent of the criminal/psychotic mind exploiting flaws that are sometimes inherent in the system.

These flaws play themselves out all the time, even in non-life-critical situations. I work on a development team, I have faith in the skill and foresight of my teammates, and yet no project is ever a 'dunk shot' -- you'd be amazed that, even with the planning and testing we do, how many times we are either t-boned by an outside event or still have to deal with a slew of details that would hinder our progress. Sometimes we make mistakes; sometimes events out of our control or from areas where we reasonably did not focus our limited resources accumulate against us. It's just part of How Things Work.

Yes, we must learn. The recriminations seem mostly to be useless, however.

Fortunato, I know thats how things work. I never said that I could do a better job. Just because I personally could not do a better job doesn't mean that I am denied the right to question their course of action. Thats the job of people in high positions - to answer to their mistakes. If you want to start defending them from any sort of recrimination then you have to also start defending every action the president every took. What, we can't criticize him either? Because we couldn't necessarily do a better job ourselves right?

I know they are doing an internal review, but that doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't share my opinion on the matter. I still don't understand what the hell you or Nemesis is talking about. Just because you don't think they did anything wrong doesn't mean that others feel the same way. Put it like this - if you feel that a series of actions by police in your area could have prevented the death of 30 people in your community, wouldn't you feel angry? Wouldn't you take steps to prevent this from happening again?

[Varelse]

Did anyone else notice that the current Yahoo headline for this story is "He was a loner"? For some reason that concerns me.:sadbanana:

[Rajah]

I am appalled by the media coverage of this event. Actually, I've been increasingly appalled by the news lately, period. Instead of focusing on the situation with the gravity and respect it warrants, the newscasters are salivating over every detail. It's like you could see their beady, greedy eyes light up with every body added to the count.

And I am sick of faux tie-in stories. "Is your child safe at school? News at 11!" And, "How can you protect yourself from a madman?" The answers are "Maybe," and "You probably can't." This situation was a freak occurrence. There's nothing you can do except live your life, be attentive to your surroundings, and hope you're lucky. I am tired of the media trying to instill in us an unnecessary, unhelpful terror.

[GraviTass]

Reports indicate the shooter was a 23 year old English Major; a 'loner'.
My first thought, given this scant info is that this guy is maybe an INTP in the grip of his inferior feeling function. He's 'feeling' some pretty strong emotions, and he can't make logical sense of them so the emotion gets expressed through his inferior feeling function - as out of contrtol...

I once awoke to ahe awful, cloying odor of a neighbor's fried chicken. Being vegetarian and sleep deprived from inconsiderate neighbors such as this, I felt myself getting angrier, and angrier... In my mind I had a sledge hammer, and I proceeded to trash my apartment with it. Each time I swung the hammer there was the satisfying feel as it broke through the plaser with a crack and bounced off the concrete walls ...

My point is that INTPs can get seriously out of control when they cannot cope with some issue that is not amenable to their usual logical approach. If I had not taken the right action that night, perhaps I would be regretting it today. But, knowing I was feeling out of control I got up, got dressed and wondered the streets for an hour or so until Fi went back into its cage.

The bottom line here in my oppinion, is that folks need to be aware of themselves in the way that a body builder might be aware of his muscles - we need to build strategies for coping.

[Varelse]

Reports indicate the shooter was a 23 year old English Major; a 'loner'.
My first thought, given this scant info is that this guy is maybe an INTP in the grip of his inferior feeling function. He's 'feeling' some pretty strong emotions, and he can't make logical sense of them so the emotion gets expressed through his inferior feeling function - as out of contrtol...I haven't studied it enough to know for sure. One concern I have is if the (likely) paranoid overreaction to this treated introverts as potential threats because of the "loner" behavior of the shooter.

But, perhaps I'm paranoid.

[airjaw]

Oh god, i ask that we please refrain from typing this guy. Please. We don't need that right now.

[Rhu]

Oh god, i ask that we please refrain from typing this guy. Please. We don't need that right now.
this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy

[hereandnow]

I am appalled by the media coverage of this event.

The media in general is so distrustful that watching the news is an exercise in saying, "That's not correct!"

[Turboflame]

this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy this guy


lol nice, but yeah we don't really know enough about him to type him. He was probably suffering from some kind of disorder so he could have been an ESFJ for all we know, though he probably was an introvert.

And the "it's always the quite ones" thing has kinda got me worried too.

[Rajah]

lol nice, but yeah we don't really know enough about him to type him. Don't make him go "him him him him him ...."

[Jennywocky]

Fortunato, I know thats how things work. I never said that I could do a better job. Just because I personally could not do a better job doesn't mean that I am denied the right to question their course of action. Thats the job of people in high positions - to answer to their mistakes. If you want to start defending them from any sort of recrimination then you have to also start defending every action the president every took. What, we can't criticize him either? Because we couldn't necessarily do a better job ourselves right?

I know they are doing an internal review, but that doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't share my opinion on the matter. I still don't understand what the hell you or Nemesis is talking about. Just because you don't think they did anything wrong doesn't mean that others feel the same way. Put it like this - if you feel that a series of actions by police in your area could have prevented the death of 30 people in your community, wouldn't you feel angry? Wouldn't you take steps to prevent this from happening again?

I'm fine with hearing your opinion. At best, that's all this thread can be, since we're not privy to insider information.

But your opinion sounded as if you had not bothered to consider both sides of the situation. When I considered the things I knew, versus the things I DIDN'T know, and tried to assess whether the administration's behavior had been reasonable, I find I can't reasonably bitch about them yet, or judge them negatively, because their actions might have been reasonable considering the circumstances.

So I find the negative assessments not just irritating but not intellectually supportable at this stage of the process. Perhaps I couched my initial post differently (I didn't take a long time to edit and refine), but this is where I was coming from.

From an impersonal assessment, I can't really assume there was gross incompetence there, and the tone of the conversation seems unfair to me. Let's let the dust settle before judging who was inept or throwing around insinuations.


lol nice, but yeah we don't really know enough about him to type him.

Apparently Rhu did.


And the "it's always the quite ones" thing has kinda got me worried too.

The reason it's always the quiet ones is simply because they lock all the loud ones up right away.


I am appalled by the media coverage of this event. Actually, I've been increasingly appalled by the news lately, period. Instead of focusing on the situation with the gravity and respect it warrants, the newscasters are salivating over every detail.

I blame part of this on the proliferation of Internet news and competition of cable news shows -- they scan for anything they can headline and publish like coke addicts rooting through cabinets for anything remotely white and grainy to snort. It's a race to get people's attention first. And the headlines often are more sensationalized than accurate in terms of content.


And I am sick of faux tie-in stories. "Is your child safe at school? News at 11!" And, "How can you protect yourself from a madman?"

That's part of the problem you noted above, I think -- "How do we capitalize on and squeeze the most juice of this one piece of news?"


The answers are "Maybe," and "You probably can't." This situation was a freak occurrence. There's nothing you can do except live your life, be attentive to your surroundings, and hope you're lucky. I am tired of the media trying to instill in us an unnecessary, unhelpful terror.

Exactly. Who expected such a thing? Who *could*? I could be dead tomorrow, under circumstances I might not have been able to control at all. I can only take "reasonable" precautions and otherwise just enjoy and live my life as best as possible.

Oh wait -- this kid played basketball by himself and never said "Hello" back when someone greeted him. They should have known he was a nuclear bomb waiting to go off. <eye roll>

[hereandnow]

It happens. People lose control daily, shoot, stab, or throw someone off a bridge. Numbers are what drives the story. In this case a person killed a significant number of people. It makes it no more tragic than when someone is killed in a poor urban setting.

Reaction is different; this is a college campus and people (incorrectly) assume their children are safe. No one is safe. It's called life and bad things happen.

Disparaging the school president this early is a rush to judgement. The media feeds the frenzy with "experts" called in to discuss what happened. Therein lies a problem in and of itself. "Experts" are paid to give an opinion that provokes reaction or they don't get called again.

It reminds me of the military experts who appear constantly, either retired or those who left the services to form compaines. Most are ignorant of the actual situation or they see only one segment and extrapolate it and give a broad opinion based on limited information. The shooting is but another example.

[airjaw]

I'm fine with hearing your opinion. At best, that's all this thread can be, since we're not privy to insider information.

But your opinion sounded as if you had not bothered to consider both sides of the situation. When I considered the things I knew, versus the things I DIDN'T know, and tried to assess whether the administration's behavior had been reasonable, I find I can't reasonably bitch about them yet, or judge them negatively, because their actions might have been reasonable considering the circumstances.

So I find the negative assessments not just irritating but not intellectually supportable at this stage of the process. Perhaps I couched my initial post differently (I didn't take a long time to edit and refine), but this is where I was coming from.

From an impersonal assessment, I can't really assume there was gross incompetence there, and the tone of the conversation seems unfair to me. Let's let the dust settle before judging who was inept or throwing around insinuations.


Thats fine, as long as you agree that eventually they should be held accountable for their actions. As for me jumping to conclusions - yes I admit I am. Perhaps I don't know everything. But thats what I'm going to do right now - look for answers. I have read almost everything there is to read about what happened, including everything the University did and said. I doubt there will be much more information revealed. I will wait and see if I am wrong, but I doubt I will be.

[sorabji_66]

I wonder how many shootings it needs for America to seriously consider banning guns?

first we should fire all police officers and hire fiddlers to play on street corners instead.

that will bring about happier people and finish off violence.

[Jennywocky]

Thats fine, as long as you agree that eventually they should be held accountable for their actions. As for me jumping to conclusions - yes I admit I am. Perhaps I don't know everything. But thats what I'm going to do right now - look for answers. I have read almost everything there is to read about what happened, including everything the University did and said. I doubt there will be much more information revealed. I will wait and see if I am wrong, but I doubt I will be.

I'd be interested in seeing the "disturbing note" he left behind.

On the other hand, similar to Rajah, I tire of the media's extensive detailing of every jot and tittle of a situation, and am happy to leave well enough alone.

[C.J.Woolf]

Did anyone else notice that the current Yahoo headline for this story is "He was a loner"? For some reason that concerns me.:sadbanana:
It's the fucking post-Columbine hysteria all over again.


I am appalled by the media coverage of this event. Actually, I've been increasingly appalled by the news lately, period. Instead of focusing on the situation with the gravity and respect it warrants, the newscasters are salivating over every detail. It's like you could see their beady, greedy eyes light up with every body added to the count.
I lived in San Antonio in the early 1970s. I remember the local newspaper and TV were both especially schlocky and awful; the latest stabbings always led.

"If it bleeds, it leads" went national, that's all.

[Avengardh]

Yes, I was a freshman in CO when Columbine happened and it's basically the same thing all over again.

They're not going to fix anything or attempt to, they're just going to try to "increase security" and blame it on everything but try to admit things like these happen.

It sounds to me as if the killer was unstable, you can't really do "profiling" for every person just in case they're school shooters, that just doesn't work.

I do agree that they're going to blame the "loner" image he had because it was the same thing when Columbine took place.

[airjaw]

But why shouldn't they? Isn't becoming more and more isolated from society a dangerous thing? The term "loner" implies that one is cut-off from society - and from getting help for mental disorder or depression.

[slacker]

My first introduction to collegiate culture sent me running to community college after a mere semester. There could be something in the water there that makes people want to kill... I know I thought about it once or twice.

U.S. college culture is, sadly, mostly about everything else except learning.

[cjs55]

I've heard that college is the new high school, and grad school is the new college. I wonder if that's fair?

[Dr. Haight]

I've heard that college is the new high school, and grad school is the new college. I wonder if that's fair?What is the new grad school?

[Meliora]

I've heard that college is the new high school, and grad school is the new college. I wonder if that's fair?

Hmm, neat concept.

[tinribz]

The murder rate in Britain is 15 per million people. Firearms account for 9&#37; of murders.

The U.S. murder rate is 55 per million, according to the FBI. Of those, 70% of murders were committed with firearms.

People go over the edge and do sick things it's a statistical probability and happens the world over, population size makes it proportional but I don't think culture is as bigger factor as is being made out. What is a big factor when it comes to the results is opportunity and ease to cause carnage.

Its unbelievable how you are kidding yourselves that is not directly related to the availability of firearms.

Anything other than single shot and double barrelled shotguns are illegal in the UK. I'm not saying semi automatic pistols don't exist but it would take me a hell lot of time and effort to make the contacts and get hold of one. The result is not many people bother and of the small percentage that go off the rails virtually none use firearms and do minimum damage.

How can you be so blind?

[Dr. Haight]

How can you be so blind?More Guns, Less Crime. Haven't you read John R. Lott, Jr.?

Additionally, he debunks a lot of the British statistics and elaborates on the term "Hot Crimes." Which, by the way, is very high in the U.K. as opposed to the U.S.

Happy reading. :)

[digesthisickness]

take away an american's gun, and he'll just get proficient at throwing knives.

[Ferrus]

Damn, this is going to give loners like me a bad name...

[digesthisickness]

Damn, this is going to give loners like me a bad name...

as opposed to that really good one you had before?

[tinribz]

More Guns, Less Crime. Haven't you read John R. Lott, Jr.?

Additionally, he debunks a lot of the British statistics and elaborates on the term "Hot Crimes." Which, by the way, is very high in the U.K. as opposed to the U.S.

Happy reading. :)

Someone already did it for me: http://timlambert.org/guns/lott/lott.html


The main argument of a recent book by John Lott is summarized in the title: More Guns, Less Crime [26 (http://timlambert.org/guns/lott/node30.html#l-mglcu-98)]. There are three parts to this argument:
that there were more guns
that there was less crime
that more guns caused less crime Lott's argument depends on all three parts being true. If any one of the parts is incorrect, the entire argument fails. In fact, as I will show in the next three sections of this document, all three parts are wrong:
there weren't significantly more guns (http://timlambert.org/guns/lott/node1.html#moreguns)
it is unclear whether there was less crime (http://timlambert.org/guns/lott/node7.html#lesscrime)
even if there was more guns and less crime, more guns did not cause less crime (http://timlambert.org/guns/lott/node12.html#cause)

Hot Crimes? I live in the North, the only hot up here are the women, not.

[Dr. Haight]

Someone already did it for me.So that guy speaks for you? I'm guessing you haven't read him either. How can you know that a counter-argument is accurate when you have yet to read the argument.

Don't be intellectually lazy. Read Lot's book, and then we will talk.

It will be good for you. Consider it homework. :headphone:

[outmywindow]

Reports indicate the shooter was a 23 year old English Major; a 'loner'.


English majors are dangerous; everyone knows that. :ph34r:

Seriously though, was anyone surprised to find out that the shooter wasn't white? I just automatically assumed he was when I first started reading articles about this yesterday. Today I read his name and actually said out loud "He's Asian? He's supposed to be white." Statistically I find this very interesting.

[digesthisickness]

English majors are dangerous; everyone knows that. :ph34r:

Seriously though, was anyone surprised to find out that the shooter wasn't white? I just automatically assumed he was when I first started reading articles about this yesterday. Today I read his name and actually said out loud "He's Asian? He's supposed to be white." Statistically I find this very interesting.

now that you mention it, my first thought wasn't, "oh good, so they've identified that horrible person who killed all of those innocent people", but was instead, "ASIAN!?!"

conclusion: you're racist.

[hereandnow]

People assumed the Beltway Sniper was white so it follows some would think this shooter was white.

[euterpenc]

I sympathize with the shooter, though mostly because I'm seeing a lot of people talk poorly of him without any understanding of him. I can't say I do cause idk him, but I'm sure things weren't going so hot for him. That doesn't take a genius. The mental habitat he was living must have been horrible. I can relate, and I'd think some others here could as well. Life is rough. In light of that statement, makes all the mourners look kind of fruity. Death is a part of life, and if you make it horrible it will be.

It seems to me that the shooter made out the worst. Let's start with heaven and hell. He would go to hell if it existed, that sucks, for one. Now, the people he killed, if they were so great, theyd go to heaven, so their death would bring them somewhere awesome, which is nothing to complain about. If there is nothing after death, it is not bad or good cause theres no person left to feel good or bad or even know theyre dead, nothing to complain about. Or you could join the infinity of being or some such, nothing to complain about. It seems like their deaths would only be bad if they went to hell, supposing it exists, which is unlikely...

Why then are people mourning? Cause they don't want the dead to go to hell for their bad deeds, or because... I would guess they are being selfish in some way. "I miss so and so" - self concern, not concern for the dead. it also seems as a way to blend in and pretend to be a good person. Self-interest.

This probably isn't very logical, but I'm just frustrated by people's reactions to things like this. People are blissfully unaware of other people, and events like this just highlight that. Obviously not enough effort was made to understand this boy, otherwise this shooting could have been prevented. By either helping him, or understanding the viable possibility of violent acts. Maybe I'm optimistic in believing in "angels in the hearts of men." Vicarious and Right in Two by Tool seem particularly applicable.

[outmywindow]

now that you mention it, my first thought wasn't, "oh good, so they've identified that horrible person who killed all of those innocent people", but was instead, "ASIAN!?!"

conclusion: you're racist.

:P What I meant was that historically, when this kind of rampage goes on in the US, it seems like 95&#37; of the time the shooter is a white male. For lack of a better word, it was almost a novelty to read the moniker "Cho Seung-Hui" in naming the killer. I'd have been just as surprised if the person had turned out to be female. The fact that it's an Asian is a statistical abnormality, and as such, I find the information 'interesting.'

[Geoff]

I sympathize with the shooter, though mostly because I'm seeing a lot of people talk poorly of him without any understanding of him. I can't say I do cause idk him, but I'm sure things weren't going so hot for him. That doesn't take a genius. The mental habitat he was living must have been horrible. I can relate, and I'd think some others here could as well. Life is rough. In light of that statement, makes all the mourners look kind of fruity. Death is a part of life, and if you make it horrible it will be.

It seems to me that the shooter made out the worst. Let's start with heaven and hell. He would go to hell if it existed, that sucks, for one. Now, the people he killed, if they were so great, theyd go to heaven, so their death would bring them somewhere awesome, which is nothing to complain about. If there is nothing after death, it is not bad or good cause theres no person left to feel good or bad or even know theyre dead, nothing to complain about. Or you could join the infinity of being or some such, nothing to complain about. It seems like their deaths would only be bad if they went to hell, supposing it exists, which is unlikely...

Why then are people mourning? Cause they don't want the dead to go to hell for their bad deeds, or because... I would guess they are being selfish in some way. "I miss so and so" - self concern, not concern for the dead. it also seems as a way to blend in and pretend to be a good person. Self-interest.

This probably isn't very logical, but I'm just frustrated by people's reactions to things like this. People are blissfully unaware of other people, and events like this just highlight that. Obviously not enough effort was made to understand this boy, otherwise this shooting could have been prevented. By either helping him, or understanding the viable possibility of violent acts. Maybe I'm optimistic in believing in "angels in the hearts of men." Vicarious and Right in Two by Tool seem particularly applicable.

Ah! I recognise this, it's the suicide bomber argument. Die the right way, go to heaven, no need to mourn.

-Geoff

[outmywindow]

People assumed the Beltway Sniper was white so it follows some would think this shooter was white.

Good point. I had forgotten about that.

[digesthisickness]

so, what are you saying zeitgeist? that because of this, you've had an epiphany and plan to go around taking the time to really get to know people as a way to maybe change the world for the better one person at a time?

[digesthisickness]

:P What I meant was that historically, when this kind of rampage goes on in the US, it seems like 95% of the time the shooter is a white male. For lack of a better word, it was almost a novelty to read the moniker "Cho Seung-Hui" in naming the killer. I'd have been just as surprised if the person had turned out to be female. The fact that it's an Asian is a statistical abnormality, and as such, I find the information 'interesting.'

<_< i know what you meant, woman! i was just pointing out that i had the same reaction as you.

[outmywindow]

so, what are you saying zeitgeist? that because of this, you've had an epiphany and plan to go around taking the time to get to really know people as a way to maybe change the world for the better?

It means he'll get with all the ugly chicks of the world in order to promote peace and harmony.

[meshou]

I sympathize with the shooter, though mostly because I'm seeing a lot of people talk poorly of him without any understanding of him.Darling, I have had a shitty, shitty, shitty life. And yet I don't want to shoot fifty people. Fancy that.

He comitted the worst spree killing in the history of the US. That is the legacy he will leave behind, and that is all there is to him. I don't care if he had a shitty life at this point, it doesn't matter.

He had agency, he had a choice, and he obsessed over doing this sort of thing for a long time. He was offered help, he didn't want it.

You're doing him more "disrespect" by writing about him as if he had no choice in the matter, and by minimizing the effect he did have in the world. He chose this, and he has merited being reviled.
Why then are people mourning?Because their CHILDREN are DEAD.

[digesthisickness]

It means he'll get with all the ugly chicks of the world in order to promote peace and harmony.

i wonder how he'll feel about her when, despite his gandhi-like understanding, she shoots him in the face?

[euterpenc]

Yeah, I guess you're right. I should just join in the blaming game too.

[meshou]

Yeah, let's just put aside petty concerns about who performed what massacre and focus on what really matters here.

Uh.

[digesthisickness]

Yeah, let's just put aside petty concerns about who performed what massacre and focus on what really matters here.

okay...


Yeah, I guess you're right. I should just join in the blaming game too.

why do people keep forgetting there's a "no talk at all" option?

[euterpenc]

Yeah, let's just put aside petty concerns about who performed what massacre and focus on what really matters here.

Uh.

Well that was what bothered the most. What really matters? Not this massacre. Does sharing this misery with the nation make things better? Not unless there is some plan on how to prevent it from happening again.

If I had not been notified about this event what would be the consequence? I don't think thered be anything significant. Seems as if it would only matter to those involved, and all of America doesn't need to be involved in this. Mouths with rattle and the truth will be further covered.

Why cant they just be like a poor boy mudered people today. It was horrible for everyone involved. The end. Why prolong it by making lengthy news stories about it?

[meshou]

okay...I was mocking him. Just a little.

[zhang_bob]

I liked how at the conference, that they named the killer, they called him (the killer) a "Residential Alien". At first I thought it was the politically correct way to describe a maniac, but then I realised that he meant the killer was a foreigner, not a schizophrenic.:mellow:

Looks like I am not a "Residential Alien" after all.:devil:

[meshou]

Well that was what bothered the most. What really matters? Not this massacre. Does sharing this misery with the nation make things better? Not unless there is some plan on how to prevent it from happening again.People are dead. This is a largescale massacre. People, especially people directly effected, have the right to be openly effected.

People have the right to decide what matters to them.
Why cant they just be like a poor boy mudered people today. It was horrible for everyone involved. The end. Why prolong it by making lengthy news stories about it?Aside from the media's tendancy to treat tragedy like hyenas treat a fresh cacass, it actually is a significant event in terms of how many people died, how badly it was handled, and the tendancy for such events to spark copycats.

This is the sort of thing that makes people question their safety, mortality, control, whatever. It's going to get talked about.

[Methofelis]

I sympathize with the shooter, though mostly because I'm seeing a lot of people talk poorly of him without any understanding of him. I can't say I do cause idk him, but I'm sure things weren't going so hot for him. That doesn't take a genius. The mental habitat he was living must have been horrible. I can relate, and I'd think some others here could as well. Life is rough. In light of that statement, makes all the mourners look kind of fruity. Death is a part of life, and if you make it horrible it will be.

It seems to me that the shooter made out the worst. Let's start with heaven and hell. He would go to hell if it existed, that sucks, for one. Now, the people he killed, if they were so great, theyd go to heaven, so their death would bring them somewhere awesome, which is nothing to complain about. If there is nothing after death, it is not bad or good cause theres no person left to feel good or bad or even know theyre dead, nothing to complain about. Or you could join the infinity of being or some such, nothing to complain about. It seems like their deaths would only be bad if they went to hell, supposing it exists, which is unlikely...

Why then are people mourning? Cause they don't want the dead to go to hell for their bad deeds, or because... I would guess they are being selfish in some way. "I miss so and so" - self concern, not concern for the dead. it also seems as a way to blend in and pretend to be a good person. Self-interest.

This probably isn't very logical, but I'm just frustrated by people's reactions to things like this. People are blissfully unaware of other people, and events like this just highlight that. Obviously not enough effort was made to understand this boy, otherwise this shooting could have been prevented. By either helping him, or understanding the viable possibility of violent acts. Maybe I'm optimistic in believing in "angels in the hearts of men." Vicarious and Right in Two by Tool seem particularly applicable.

So you have no care when someone you love dies? Have you experienced that yet...?

Call me soft and weak (good luck,) but if someone shot my children to death, you're god-damned right I'd mourn them. I would not be able to give half a shit as to why the person in question did it. Being teased? Loner? Hard time with people? Great, sounds like my school years. I had a hell of it too. I even wrote many stories and created many images (and still do) that probably could have rivaled his in macabre. I have had a crap life too. I have a morbid mind. I dislike some people with a passion. Am I going to kill? Shoot 'em up?
Fuck no.

To say he made it off the worst? Here you have some guy -- probably none too unlike some people in here in many ways -- who made his choice to kill. The others? The victims? You're right. I bet they were thrilled to bleed to death. To watch others die around them, with no one to help, and suffer for some loser and his bullshit 'issues.' His problems do not even come close to deserving resolution in the violent demise of others.

I can understand the hatred towards the torturer one can experience in the grips of the cruelty imposed upon you. I've been there. The Columbine kids, this man... I can see why, to a degree. I do not feel bad for them. I do not 'relate' beyond knowing how it feels to be outcast.

This is not an unfair blame game. He bought the gun, he killed 33 people. Would you suggest that they were all to blame for his issues?

Remember that (God forbid), should someone ever violently attack you. They are not to blame! They are the victim, not you. You should have done more to be understanding.


Well that was what bothered the most. What really matters? Not this massacre. Does sharing this misery with the nation make things better? Not unless there is some plan on how to prevent it from happening again.

If I had not been notified about this event what would be the consequence? I don't think thered be anything significant. Seems as if it would only matter to those involved, and all of America doesn't need to be involved in this. Mouths with rattle and the truth will be further covered.

Why cant they just be like a poor boy mudered people today. It was horrible for everyone involved. The end. Why prolong it by making lengthy news stories about it?

... Why bother making lengthy news stories about anything? That makes no sense. News is news. People thrive on knowing what is going on around them... and sensationalism, of course.

[Birdsnest]

They will make probably something significant out of it, such as requiring "Counseling" if they have any reason to suspect 'loners' having issues in schools.

And, it will make 'loners' look bad. I hate that part of it. Why do only the outgoing people get classified as normal?

[euterpenc]

I feel like we all have the desire to kill and destroy. This seems undeniable. Why should we be so irritated when someone gives in to their darker urges?

I would suppose this varies per person. Though to kill and be killed seems to be life in motion.

"The universe is hostile, so impersonal.
Devour to survive so it is, so it's always been.

Vicariously, I live while the whole world dies. Much better you than I."

I think it's funny though, cause if I killed people, I'd be the last one laughing. People would be pissed, treat me like shit, torture me, kill me, all these are possible. But I can laugh at them in their anger. And they are suffering by perpetuating it while for me it is over and I can laugh at all the suffering that others are suffering at my behest, though it is there fault. I mean, we could just laugh in the face of life's terrors, or we can cry about it. I'd rather laugh.

Edit: I also think it's funny, that we react to suffering, by creating more. In other situations, youd have someone killed, then people want to kill the killer. Stupid monkeys.

[Methofelis]

They will make probably something significant out of it, such as requiring "Counseling" if they have any reason to suspect 'loners' having issues in schools.

And, it will make 'loners' look bad. I hate that part of it. Why do only the outgoing people get classified as normal?

Loners have always looked bad. "It's always the quiet ones you have to watch out for."

People tend to forget the lively, gregarious serial killers. The people who were nice and friendly, normal, and just 'snapped' one day.
I had to go through a whole world of 'help' from my schools due to the fact that I was too solitary. I also got kicked out for it. I was threatening... by keeping to myself and not responding to their twisted version of social therapy, whatever that may be. The loner shall remain the quiet intelligence, or the feared silence. It is shameful.

The loners will be shunned, making them even more introverted. Weirder, as they are viewed. The friendlies will continue to thrive, since society calls for constant interaction with others in order to be popular and successful... in the traditional sense. Not that loners cannot achieve this -- it is just far more difficult to break that barrier.


crap

I take it you've led a very tortured life, then? Do tell.

[abathur]

They will make probably something significant out of it, such as requiring "Counseling" if they have any reason to suspect 'loners' having issues in schools.

And, it will make 'loners' look bad. I hate that part of it. Why do only the outgoing people get classified as normal?

That's exactly why I'm already sick of hearing about it. Two days in. Nooooooooooooooo fucking way there are problems with our society, it's the people who aren't happy smiling supporters of our society who we need to watch out for.

I read the "plays" someone put up from the kid's screenwriting class and honestly I'm not even phased.

They're described as
"A fellow student said Cho had written two plays so "twisted" that his classmates suspected he might become a school shooter.

Ian McFarlane, who said he had class with Cho, called the plays "very graphic" and "extremely disturbing."

McFarlane is an employee of AOL, which has provided the writings to CNN. (Read McFarlane's blog and the two playsexternal link)

"It was like something out of a nightmare," McFarlane wrote in a blog. "The plays had really twisted, macabre violence that used weapons I wouldn't have even thought of.

"Before Cho got to class that day, we students were talking to each other with serious worry about whether he could be a school shooter."

But honestly, they aren't that graphic. They're horribly written, have a lot of swearing, and a lot of talk about assraping. If this came into one of my workshop classes I'd cockslap him for bad writing and skip the pre-class discussions about how he's probably a school shooter. Sounds like the kids he took screenwriting with are the crazy ones.

[meshou]

Zeit misses the point of 10,000 Days.Mrf. <_< Go back to Undertow where you belong. Worse, Opiate.

[euterpenc]

Mrf. <_< Go back to Undertow where you belong. Worse, Opiate.

What was the point?

Moreover, it's rather presumptuous of you to tell me my feelings are incorrect. I'm sure that no more than 10&#37; (a generous #) of people who listen to Tool actually know what they are talking about. Which isn't the point anyway. Music seems to me to be about integrating the music into your own life in a meaningful way. Tool is intentionally obscure.

Btw, you don't get the "point" of me either. So, way to be in the dark.

Edit: Tool's earlier albums are just as applicable as latter albums. It also doesn't seem as a direct progression either. I understand lateralus very clearly I'd say. But I'm well versed in its topics. But yeah. Jerk-Off... so applies to you guys... I should play god and shoot you myself...

[meshou]

What was the point?Ask in ten years, kid.
Btw, you don't get the "point" of me either. So, way to be in the dark.You flatter yourself. You're obvious.

[euterpenc]

Ask in ten years, kid.You flatter yourself. You're obvious.

That is obvious in itself. Some things are obvious indeed, but to say you know me anywhere near as well I know myself is presumptuous. INTPC never ceases to be a source of frustration for me. Whatever I say here is of no significance. A wonderful feeling. It feels good to be looked down on, it really does. I mean hell, what's the difference between being 18 and 2. Nothing, I'd say. But to illustrate this would be a labor, considering the profound lack of profundity of the minds of this forum. mock me call me stupid, ignore me. It feels good to be loved. I'd **** you if I could.

[C.J.Woolf]

This probably isn't very logical...
You can say that again. It isn't very human, either.

I hope you're just a troll.

[hereandnow]

Tool's earlier albums are just as applicable as latter albums. It also doesn't seem as a direct progression either. I understand lateralus very clearly I'd say. But I'm well versed in its topics. But yeah. Jerk-Off... so applies to you guys... I should play god and shoot you myself...

You have a very small dick, don't you?

The shooter performed acts of violence and shot himself. Was he misunderstood, lonely, or sad? Maybe. A coward? Probably. But if he were a one-eyed midget with Downs Syndrome it doesn't excuse, or cause the majority of people, to give two shits about him at this point.

As for your comments above, it's appropriate you listen to a band named Tool; you are what you listen to...and the last line is indicative of something a boy would say. A very small boy.

[Methofelis]

What was the point?

Moreover, it's rather presumptuous of you to tell me my feelings are incorrect. I'm sure that no more than 10% (a generous #) of people who listen to Tool actually know what they are talking about. Which isn't the point anyway. Music seems to me to be about integrating the music into your own life in a meaningful way. Tool is intentionally obscure.

Btw, you don't get the "point" of me either. So, way to be in the dark.

Edit: Tool's earlier albums are just as applicable as latter albums. It also doesn't seem as a direct progression either. I understand lateralus very clearly

I'd say. But I'm well versed in its topics. But yeah. Jerk-Off... so applies to you guys... I should play god and shoot you myself...

Your brilliance has always astounded me.


That is obvious in itself. Some things are obvious indeed, but to say you know me anywhere near as well I know myself is presumptuous. INTPC never ceases to be a source of frustration for me. Whatever I say here is of no significance. A wonderful feeling. It feels good to be looked down on, it really does. I mean hell, what's the difference between being 18 and 2. Nothing, I'd say. But to illustrate this would be a labor, considering the profound lack of profundity of the minds of this forum. mock me call me stupid, ignore me. It feels good to be loved. I'd **** you if I could.

Nobody is arguing that your thoughts are valid -- to you. It just seems that nobody agrees.
I'm not too much older than you. Yet when I was eighteen, even then I knew better.
If most people here find what you say inane and trivial, if not terribly naive... you're right. WE ALL must be the idiots. If no one understands you, why not try clarifying?

[Meliora]

Zeitgeist needs to get over himself.

[Jacque]

You can say that again. It isn't very human, either.

I hope you're just a troll.

:sadbanana: Why are we attacking zeitgeist? For his disregard of social conventions? For strange world views which that may surface inappropriately? For his lone wolf mentality? What should you expect from an INTP.

Correcting behavior to fit the moral consensus is best left to the ESFJs. We wear that personality when business suits it, but we are not here to be ESFJs. We argue, debate, throw out ideas and perspectives . . . ruminate. It's a dialectical process with a noble aim. Reduce contrasting views to matters of principle to better respect and understand the subject. This is a discussion forum. Don't react to conflict. Anticipate it. Don't be that guy.

[meshou]

INTPs as a whole know better than Ziet.

[airjaw]

:sadbanana: Why are we attacking zeitgeist? For his disregard of social conventions? For strange world views which that may surface inappropriately? For his lone wolf mentality? What should you expect from an INTP.

Correcting behavior to fit the moral consensus is best left to the ESFJs. We wear that personality when business suits it, but we are not here to be ESFJs. We argue, debate, throw out ideas and perspectives . . . ruminate. It's a dialectical process with a noble aim. Reduce contrasting views to matters of principle to better respect and understand the subject. This is a discussion forum. Don't react to conflict. Anticipate it. Don't be that guy.

thats just a lame excuse for an INTP's flaws. We should expect more out of ourselves than to just give in to whatever MBTI says are our faults. Thats what is really going on. I'm proud to note that a lot of INTP's on this board have been through enough experiences involving emotions to understand what it means to be empathetic or sensitive to the feelings of others, and the importance of it. Sadly, some still haven't had those experiences. But we shouldn't just up and agree with them now, should we? In time Zeitgeist, you will "get it". Until that time, expect people to respond with the conviction that comes from years of personal experience to things they disagree with. After all, this is INTPc.

[demagogic_schizoid]

:sadbanana: Why are we attacking zeitgeist? For his disregard of social conventions?

Try "disregard for other people".

[hereandnow]

:sadbanana: Why are we attacking zeitgeist?

Sometimes, even for INTP's, there is value in being direct and confrontational. Not always, but in this case, for him, it's deserved. You can choose to validate his opinions or lay the warm hand of comfort on his shoulder. But with his last sentence, and his previous statements, he deserves any contempt sent his way. If you post and others see it as something beneath contempt stand up and accept it. It's a forum - not a cult.

[Hustler]

One thing that always comes up when an event like this happens is the question of why. Why would a kid do that? Why do people do commit unthinkable acts of rage and murder like this? Why has it been elevating, or at least appearing to do so, in society as of late? I have a theory, and it is very closely related to what was discussed in this thread (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=3334).

Sociopaths Among Us

Harvard psychologist, Martha Stout, proposes in her work The Sociopath Next Door that a full 4&#37;, or 1 in 25, of us are sociopaths. That means there are millions of sociopaths right here in the United States, and tens of millions more spread across the world. We hear about them all the time, many of whom are public figures behind such things as terrorism, tyranny, genocide and the like, but most of them go unnoticed. Most do not have violent tendencies, and most are never known as such, because they ultimately learn to blend in and go about their lives under a mask of appearing normal. Many get shunted into other lifestyles and go out in a much less public, less spectacular bang, and I think that is why events such as this seem so mystifying.

Consider one of the first stereotypes that comes to mind regarding the likes of school shooters, serial killers and other obvious sociopaths: they are white. Many are also from middle-class backgrounds, are educated, have held down jobs, and so on. This Virginia Tech shooter fits in with that, having ended up in college. The poor sociopaths don't make it this far, don't go to college, and aren't around in school to shoot people up. Thus, as blacks have been economically marginalized in America for so long, we don't see as many black school shooters or serial killers. The underprivileged end up in different lifestyles: in gangs or in special forces military units.

Many sociopathic, underprivileged gang members are dead by the age of 19, or at least in their early 20s. The term "OG," meaning 'original gangster' was something young gangsters used when speaking of older gangsters, generally meaning someone around the age of 30. In a street gang, 30 is old, because most of the active members have either been imprisoned or killed. It's a rare breed who makes it to 30. These people generally do not get the kind of publicity a college student on a rampage gets, because it's not as sensational. Another dead gang member is just another dead gang member. The other major place where we route sociopaths in society is into elite special forces units. In the discussions about sociopaths, one thing that comes up is that they are generally hyper-competitive, and this streak manifests itself in a big way when you're talking about the Navy SEALS or the Green Berets or the like. These guys are hell-bent on making it into those units, and many of their rank lust after the chance to get their sociopathic aggression out by training hard for the chance to snuff out the lives of the enemy. An interesting side-effect of these two outlets is that it presumably keeps the number of sociopaths down from how high it could escalate. A dead special forces soldier isn't going to reproduce, and neither is a dead, 16 year old gang-banger who has been skipping school to participate in street life.

Children of white, suburban middle-class families do not have these options, or at least the options are not as valid for them. These are children who have grown up with social pressure to conform to a certain set of values. These values include going to college and getting a good job, and the hyper-competitive sociopaths will set out to do just that. The small number of violent sociopaths among them will start out along the same path but, somewhere along the road, they crack and things like the Virginia Tech incident or a serial killing spree happen. These individuals may have supplanted video games or other forms of fantasy for real violence to get them through their lives by allowing them to play out their tendencies, but for a few that is eventually not enough, and their rage explodes out onto those around them.

This recent headliner was a Korean born of immigrant parents. From everything I know about this situation, education is highly prized and going into the military is generally next to unthinkable. Engineering, science, medicine and the like are what many Asian immigrants push their children to do (though this guy was an English major... who knows, maybe that was a source of friction). The point is, the values the Asian immigrant community shares are largely in line with the values of the suburban white community in terms of things like getting an education, getting a good job, and eventually settling down and having a family. Memetic reproduction at its finest. And, as such, it's no surprise that we eventually see such a sociopath emerge and make headlines with an outburst of insane violence.

Society, Guns, and Rising Incidents

It seems like people want to blame violent elements of society (gangsta rap, videogames, movies, TV, etc.) and guns for the apparent rise in frequency of these events. I think what's more to blame is the shift in the very nature of our society as we transition more from our industrial and agrarian past. First, we have more people, so we have more crazy people. Second, more people are living a lifestyle in accordance with modern, suburban values, and less in line with working-class industrial or agrarian values. In the case of the latter lifestyles, the sociopathic children could go into the military, join up with violent gangs, or just go out on their uncle's farm and shoot animals all day. These options are drying up for the modern sociopath, and so we see an escalation in events like this.

"But, Hustler," you say, "a lot of these are just kids in high school." It's true, and some sociopaths will certainly develop their violent tendencies earlier. In third-world countries, this is not a problem, because kids can get into military involvement at an earlier age than they can here. Further, the principle still stands in America, because dropping out and being a fuck up for a few years before dying thanks to involvement in illicit activity was a more widely-available option for 15 and 16 year-olds in the past, and it still a more viable option among poorer sectors of society today than it is for middle-class kids. It takes a rare breed of white, suburban kid to actually try to move to Compton or West Philly or Detroit and try to join an actual gang, or a rare breed of immigrant kid of Korean parents to try and get involved with some Mexican gangsters transporting cocaine across the border and commiting any number of violent crimes in the process of maintaining turf and connections. These kids don't drop out, because the pressure is too great and the alternatives are just not there, and most make it through school and through life unnoticed. Some crack under the pressure to let their sociopathic aggression out and end up in school shootring sprees or a serial killing rampage, be it in high school or college or later. Yesterday's St. Valentine's Day Massacre, planned and principally executed by 24 year old Jack "Machine Gun" McGurn, aka Vincenzo Antonio Gibaldi working on behalf of Al Capone, is today's Virginia Tech student shooting planned and executed by 23 year old college student Cho Seung-Hui. Gibaldi had an outlet available to him that Cho did not, the gangster life. Had both been born under slightly different circumstances today, they'd both be SEALs or Rangers or Green Berets or the like, and they would be praised by the government of the United States for their heroism.

[hereandnow]

Had both been born under slightly different circumstances today, they'd both be SEALs or Rangers or Green Berets or the like, and they would be praised by the government of the United States for their heroism.

This last point is debatable. Especially since you used SEALs, Rangers and Green Berets. Having spent years among and within these men it's as likely you'd find Capone's man working in a factory or scamming shareholders as you'd find him in those types of units. As to servicewide, yes I'd agree with it because of the number of people involved. Does the military attract people like that-sure. Many wash out or fail to make the cut into units with very high standards. Do they slip through-yes. But you could make the same point about police officers, dentists, and postal employees.

[Krill]

Zeitgeist needs to get over himself.

And Tool. What the hell is up with that?

Zeitgeist, I suggest you use your head, not some band's songs.

[airjaw]

Interesting points, Hustler.

[Hustler]

This last point is debatable. Especially since you used SEALs, Rangers and Green Berets. Having spent years among and within these men it's as likely you'd find Capone's man working in a factory or scamming shareholders as you'd find him in those types of units. As to servicewide, yes I'd agree with it because of the number of people involved. Does the military attract people like that-sure. Many wash out or fail to make the cut into units with very high standards. Do they slip through-yes. But you could make the same point about police officers, dentists, and postal employees.
Sure, but being a dentist doesn't let you go around shooting people, without it having serious repercussions. Hyper-competitive people are the only kind who can make it into elite units in the military. Sociopaths are characterized by this streak, and the prospect of a violent payoff where they are able to kill and be given approval and the respect they feel they are due for their efforts are big plusses. Sure, most probably won't make the cut, but I think you'll find that a special forces unit has a higher than 1 in 25 incidence of sociopathy that is seen in society on average, and the same can likely be said for the military as a whole (take the Beltway Sniper, for example). Many ex-military people end up in the police so, sure, the same can probably be said for them as well. The chance to use a gun to kill and get acclaim for it is a big draw to many a sociopath with violent tendencies.

Postal employees who are off-kilter just end up going postal. I don't think it's the best place for a sociopath to thrive and survive long.

[Methofelis]

:sadbanana: Why are we attacking zeitgeist? For his disregard of social conventions? For strange world views which that may surface inappropriately? For his lone wolf mentality? What should you expect from an INTP.

Correcting behavior to fit the moral consensus is best left to the ESFJs. We wear that personality when business suits it, but we are not here to be ESFJs. We argue, debate, throw out ideas and perspectives . . . ruminate. It's a dialectical process with a noble aim. Reduce contrasting views to matters of principle to better respect and understand the subject. This is a discussion forum. Don't react to conflict. Anticipate it. Don't be that guy.

I'm not being that guy(girl.) Isn't it also an 'INTP thing' to strongly defend one's own personal values? Not that I want to view this discussion from a strictly MBTI standpoint, either. Not everything needs to be attributed to type -- this is also simple human regard for life.
I have nothing against someone having an alternative viewpoint. On many things, I do as well -- perhaps to unusual degrees to others.
I'm not trying to correct his behavior. I don't care if he sees things like that for the rest of his life. Not my problem. All I'm doing is expressing the fact that I find his views naive and lacking real-world insight. He can think what he wants.

[lbloom]

Isn't it also an 'INTP thing' to strongly defend one's own personal values?

It is?

I typically go 'meh' unless I really know and respect the other party.

[hereandnow]

Sure, most probably won't make the cut, but I think you'll find that a special forces unit has a higher than 1 in 25 incidence of sociopathy that is seen in society on average.

If you are using Stouts data her means of collecting it has been in dispute. Look at salon's article/interview with her. Further, whilst you make valid points in other areas, what percentage of special forces actually make kills? Are you familiar with the phrase "tip of the spear"? Not everyone kills someone. Therefore, using your data of more than 1 in 25 is likely to include people who never actually kill another-just like you, joe the dentist, or bob the pastry chef.

Don't get me wrong there's no way to state the military doesn't attract people such as you've described. I do take issue with your number of more than 1 in 25 unless you have some hard data or personal experience. By this I mean with respect to the particular forces you mentioned.

[C.J.Woolf]

The military as a public works program for violent sociopaths? Hmm, I never thought of it that way before. If anything, there are too few slots in the special ops units for all the sociopaths in the US.

I read somewhere that one of the biggest challenges for any society is keeping its young men out of trouble. Our society does a rather poor job of it, it seems.

[meshou]

Zeitgeist, I suggest you use your head, not some band's songs.Well, I do love tool like whoah, and there's a good amount of philosophy in there. But... guh.

[Methofelis]

It is?

I typically go 'meh' unless I really know and respect the other party.

Generally it is when they come under fire.

While he didn't directly insult my ideals, some things he said did strike a very, very strong chord.

[Ka.avik]

That's exactly why I'm already sick of hearing about it. Two days in. Nooooooooooooooo fucking way there are problems with our society, it's the people who aren't happy smiling supporters of our society who we need to watch out for.
yeah, I hear ya'. It's exactly the people who talk together about how so-and-so must be a horrible person, that keep that person an outcast. I remember when I first watched a news story about columbine, all those years ago, my first reaction was "Dang. Why couldn't I have done that?"

No that thought didn't last very long, and I've since read some of the more complete reports of those two -- they were jerks and I would have beaten their skulls in had I been a fellow student at that time ... well, no I wouldn't because I couldn't fight my way out of a paper bag. And the anger burns out before it turns to action, now. Just as well.

But I feel for all the loners, some compassion. Even the ones that become killers. I find it just as easy to blame the outcast-making "normals" for the deaths. They created this monster; seeing the destruction is their just desert.

And I've found myself at the receiving end of much flak, for that -- even from semi-outcasts who take flak from the normals for not being more outgoing & social. Don't you get it? Hustler's 1-in-4 thing is crap. We're all capable of going down in a blaze of glory, of killing because of our hatred. I don't think school shootings are done by sociopaths with no feelings; not at all. These are people whose blood has boiled, and the emotion has all boiled off leaving only the outlet of action. The fires of hatred are still burning, there's just nothing left to absorb the heat, so like a pan of boiling water gone dry, something cracks.

but for the grace of God, there go I. But the Harris & Klebold kids did it right: there're dead now.

Same I guess with this kid ... now there's no way we can catch up with him and make him feel our hatred. He who laughs last, laughs best. But a few days after Columbine, I thought "WTF? Only 12 dead? Wimps!" So by that, they didn't win. 30, now ... that's a respectable number. If you can call that respect.

I still have to love them for their sheer gall, even while I feel shattered by the damage they do to other "loners". I'm sorry, Klebold et. al. ... I wish you could have found the love you needed.

[s]

Jesus, a *gun fight.

If the people trust their government enough to give up the right to physically protect THEIR OWN life and property, then, meh, so be it. Afterall, everyone here supports their government and would give their lives for it, because it knows what is best for its citizens. I personally hate complex solutions, but prefer to have simple reactionary ones that don't make me uncomfortable. We can't all be trusted to use freewill (or play "Freewill" by Rush for that matter). It is a good thing we have good leaders bound by the core principles this country was founded on.



It is a good thing Hustler didn't rise through the ranks and become an Admin, too.

*Oh yeah, only one of the people who died on that campus had a weapon.

[MagicGermanGypsie]

I feel a mild guilt (but honestly, not much) about... well, not changing the subject because someone would have to repliy to it firstly.... I'm digging a hole. Okay, this is my FIRST post, but not message board, so I know the typical harrassment and degradment that follows the "1st noob post".

Truthfully, I don't really care about this whole thing but I do find it entertaining and a reason to watch the news. But, what worries me is that it's going to be the same shit that happened in the wake of the too often mentioned Colombine.

Let me explain; now, wheither most INTP people are like this, I am. I'm what you'd call "A loner" but I do have many close-knit friends. I hardly speak in class, and when I do it's because either I'm challenged for my opinon or I just want to argue and make an ass out of someone. I'm known and have had it said dirictly to my face that I "never smile" and rarely show emotion. Did I mention that I wear trench coats? This of course, just hurts me even more because again, Colombine & Trench Coat Mafia etc. (why should I conform like everyone else? Plus the coats act as a security blanket for me.)
Oh, and the Colombine kids didn't wear trench coats; they wore dusters.
Annnnddd.... I DO have a morbid sense of humour.

None of this would be a problem any other time! Yet, some douche bag had to shoot some people because he was angry. He wrote these "violent" stories as well. And recently I turned in a story for my advanced psychology class on abnormal psych. and specifically on amphetamine psychosis. It revolved around a contract killer who is addicted to Adderall and uses L.S.D. I recived an A- on the story, yet strangely, the teacher kept it (he asked first)

I'm now afriad that its possible the teachers or staff might be suspicous of me (without a bases) but still. Any advice on what I should do?
[sp]-on this entire thing; typing fast and I don't trust this "ieSpell" yet.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Any advice on what I should do?


Kill them

[airjaw]

I'm now afriad that its possible the teachers or staff might be suspicous of me (without a bases) but still. Any advice on what I should do?
[sp]-on this entire thing; typing fast and I don't trust this "ieSpell" yet.

You shouldn't do anything - you are imagining possible scenarios that may or may not exist. don't worry about what they think and just live your life.

[Serotonin]

Mrf. <_< Go back to Undertow where you belong. Worse, Opiate.

I met a boy wearing Vans 501....


I feel like we all have the desire to kill and destroy. This seems undeniable. Why should we be so irritated when someone gives in to their darker urges?


http://www.theglowcompany.co.uk/acatalog/mathmos_space_projector.jpg

Um, I don't have the desire to kill and destroy.

[Ivy]

And the Best Use of a Visual Aid in a Post award goes to... Serotonin!

[MagicGermanGypsie]

Kill them


You shouldn't do anything - you are imagining possible scenarios that may or may not exist. don't worry about what they think and just live your life.

Awwwww! You both make good points! Which one to choose... Ha, joking! Schizoid is obviously right, right? Ha. The only thing is, is that they sort of have control over things... Aw well.

[Methofelis]

Awwwww! You both make good points! Which one to choose... Ha, joking! Schizoid is obviously right, right? Ha. The only thing is, is that they sort of have control over things... Aw well.

Oh, yes... I remember very well how ugly it got for me when everyone decided that the loners were the evil of the schoolyard. I came under fire heavily. Why?

I was too quiet.
I had high test scores.
I was in advanced art classes.
I wrote surrealistic, bizarre and sometimes disturbed stories.
I wore muted colors and listened to the bad bands. Like White Zombie.
Marilyn Manson came from my town and basically ruined it for everyone -- we were Satan Spawn!

Idiotic assumptions about me simply because I kept to myself, loved to create, and did very well on my tests.

So yeah -- try like hell to just ignore it, but good luck if shit does roll your way.

[meshou]

I met a boy wearing Vans 501....:wub:

Hahahah, I'm going to call Ziet "Little Buddy" from now on.

[Ferrus]

as opposed to that really good one you had before?
Wow someone spotted the irony.

Yes, people considered me some sort of asocial demigod.

[Serotonin]

Saw the video. Major victim complex, plus a refusal to take responsibility for his actions.

"I didn't have to do this, but the choice was yours......" wtf? Why give a different set of rules to yourself than to everybody else?

"Instead I died like Jesus Christ".... um, I don't think Christ killed anyone.

"Your Mercedes wasn't enough...."
I think what he meant to say was he was picked on by rich kids for entertainment that couldn't be satiated by materialism alone. Which is a good sign..... except for the bullying, of course.

[airjaw]

I just watched the videos. I have no words right now.

[Ferrus]

This is the biggest online video craze since Saddam was given a nasty tug to the neck.

[attila_the_hunny]

Okay, there are some similarities between how he is described and how INTPs in general would describe themselves--but how many of you are so brash as to make class life so unbearable that more than half of the students would drop or not attend? Or have a professor considering quitting because of you? If someone talked to you, would you say nothing entirely? We may be socially awkward, but generally we aren't social assholes unless provoked. People aren't really aware of our presences, whereas they were painfully aware of his. We are asocial; he was anti-social.

[Ferrus]

Probably an INFP. Those evil bastards.

[Diffusion]

What's a real tragedy is that 170 die in Iraq in one day and no one bats an eyelash.

Media sensationalism at it's finest.

[Notsweetynice]

What's a real tragedy is that 170 die in Iraq in one day and no one bats an eyelash.

Media sensationalism at it's finest.

Yeah, but those lives were expendable compared to future engineers and professors. I thought it was interesting how it was made known right away that one of the victims had a 4.0 GPA....Life is a life regardless of whether someone was a good student or not. At least I think so anyway.

[Zergling]

Yeah, but those lives were expendable compared to future engineers and professors. I thought it was interesting how it was made known right away that one of the victims had a 4.0 GPA....Life is a life regardless of whether someone was a good student or not. At least I think so anyway.

I think the most important lives are those with a 3.4 GPA, which just by pure chance I happen to have at the moment.

[nfinityi]

I sympathize with the shooter,
Yeah, I think we've all figured that out by now, and that's probably not something you want to go spreading around.

Why then are people mourning?
Yes, Jon. How dare people mourn their dead family.

[airjaw]

Yeah, I think we've all figured that out by now, and that's probably not something you want to go spreading around.

Yes, Jon. How dare people mourn their dead family.

This is INTPc, where feelings are neither acknowledged nor used.

[nfinityi]

This is INTPc, where feelings are neither acknowledged nor used.
There's a difference between preference and neurosis.

[airjaw]

Believe me, half the INTP's on this board couldn't tell the difference even if you spelled it out for them.

[SolitaryWalker]

I sympathize with the shooter, though mostly because I'm seeing a lot of people talk poorly of him without any understanding of him. I can't say I do cause idk him, but I'm sure things weren't going so hot for him. That doesn't take a genius. The mental habitat he was living must have been horrible. I can relate, and I'd think some others here could as well. Life is rough. In light of that statement, makes all the mourners look kind of fruity. Death is a part of life, and if you make it horrible it will be.

It seems to me that the shooter made out the worst. Let's start with heaven and hell. He would go to hell if it existed, that sucks, for one. Now, the people he killed, if they were so great, theyd go to heaven, so their death would bring them somewhere awesome, which is nothing to complain about. If there is nothing after death, it is not bad or good cause theres no person left to feel good or bad or even know theyre dead, nothing to complain about. Or you could join the infinity of being or some such, nothing to complain about. It seems like their deaths would only be bad if they went to hell, supposing it exists, which is unlikely...

Why then are people mourning? Cause they don't want the dead to go to hell for their bad deeds, or because... I would guess they are being selfish in some way. "I miss so and so" - self concern, not concern for the dead. it also seems as a way to blend in and pretend to be a good person. Self-interest.

This probably isn't very logical, but I'm just frustrated by people's reactions to things like this. People are blissfully unaware of other people, and events like this just highlight that. Obviously not enough effort was made to understand this boy, otherwise this shooting could have been prevented. By either helping him, or understanding the viable possibility of violent acts. Maybe I'm optimistic in believing in "angels in the hearts of men." Vicarious and Right in Two by Tool seem particularly applicable.


There! There is your INTJ nihilism!

[dunee]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/27/student.essay.arrest.ap/index.html

and the fallout continues.

[Jennywocky]

I sympathize with the shooter, though mostly because I'm seeing a lot of people talk poorly of him without any understanding of him. I can't say I do cause idk him, but I'm sure things weren't going so hot for him. That doesn't take a genius. The mental habitat he was living must have been horrible. I can relate, and I'd think some others here could as well. Life is rough. In light of that statement, makes all the mourners look kind of fruity. Death is a part of life, and if you make it horrible it will be.

I'm sorry I missed all the fun here, being busy doing other things.

Honestly -- I can empathize with the shooter because he was a human being, and I know what it's like to feel ostractized and alone. I'm one of the first to look at the "culprit" and see where things might have been different and identify with his hurt.

But if you have any knowledge of his past, he made many decisions to push away the many people who tried to reach out of him. He seemed to do this because he desired power more than friendship and hatred more than relationship. He was self-absorbed, self-focused, and chose over and over again to push people away and pursue his hatred.

And this was the result. He wasn't a victim. He was a messed-up kid who chose to kill 32 other people who were actually innocent, and robbing 32 families of people they loved. Because he chose to hate, rather than find a way to live for real.



Now, the people he killed, if they were so great, theyd go to heaven, so their death would bring them somewhere awesome, which is nothing to complain about. If there is nothing after death, it is not bad or good cause theres no person left to feel good or bad or even know theyre dead, nothing to complain about. Or you could join the infinity of being or some such, nothing to complain about. It seems like their deaths would only be bad if they went to hell, supposing it exists, which is unlikely...

Why then are people mourning? Cause they don't want the dead to go to hell for their bad deeds, or because... I would guess they are being selfish in some way.

It's much easier than you make it out to be.

Stop thinking so much. Start feeling more.

A lot of people are grieving because they lost someone they love, and all the future and dreams they had with that person are lost as well.



Obviously not enough effort was made to understand this boy, otherwise this shooting could have been prevented. By either helping him, or understanding the viable possibility of violent acts.

You should research more before making a post like this. But I guess this was posted early on, and maybe not as much information was available at that time.

Hope the additional info gave you a new perspective on things.