hello INTP world

[scarebear]

I'm from the US, not that all that proud to be from the US these days... I live close enough to Canada to be able to pretend I'm Canadian, but I'm compelled to be truthful.

Been browsing around the forum, so far I feel at home, and that is so unusual. I started a group on myspace for INTP's and was directed here, so here I am.

Um, I should either be working or sleeping, but I was curious so I decided to check this out.

I'm a graphic designer/webmaster/photographer. I am online pretty much all the time. I would tell you the links, but everything needs to be updated. If you're truly curious, my myspace page is: profiles.myspace.com (http://profiles.myspace.com/users/4129345)
And it's all there, my blog, links to all the things I am involved in. I spend way too much time there.

Anyway, if you want the short version of who I am... let me see... I am nice. But anti-social... but nice... I am sort of somewhere between hippie and goth. Too dark and intense for most hippies, and too wholesome for most goths. And I am somewhere between geek and artist. Too intellectual for most artists, too bohemian for most geeks. I am a hybrid in the physical sense as well, of Mexican heritage on my mother's side, German on my father's.

And I am into music to an obsessive degree.

That's about it.

If anyone uses myspace, feel free to join the Myspace INTP group:
http://groups.myspace.com/INTP

Also, if anyone uses audioscrobbler, feel free to join the INTP group there:
http://www.audioscrobbler.com/group/INTP

[MasterMerk]

Welcome to hell.

I mean - HI! :)

[file cabinet]

someone in #intp told me about the myspace group a day or two ago. I am Clayton (http://www.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=4544879&Mytoken=20050118014846) in the myspace group.

[garak]

:hello:

/me joins

(i'm nick on myspace .. this guy (http://www.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=878904&Mytoken=20050117234939) )

[scarebear]

Thanks for the nice welcome! I think I'm gonna like it here. Even though I'm old.

[int]

I'm from the US, not that all that proud to be from the US these days... I live close enough to Canada to be able to pretend I'm Canadian, but I'm compelled to be truthful.



Heh. I am a Canuckian citizen, but live happily green-carded in the US. You probably know more about canadians than I do. :\

Welcome. :)

[garak]

Thanks for the nice welcome! I think I'm gonna like it here. Even though I'm old.
99 is pretty damn ancient!

[garak]

Wait wait.. ANOTHER ONE FROM MICHIGAN?

(or is it minnesota?)

[scarebear]

I'm not really 99, I'm 37. But I would totally lie if we met in person, as I was conditioned to do over the years, because people always make a big deal out of how young I look. People still make me show my ID when I buy alcohol (about 45% of the time.)

I'm from Michigan, the place where everyone is not more than 2 degrees away from Kid Rock, Emimem, Madonna, or the White Stripes. (I only like The White Stripes, though.) And I'm only one degree away from the Koffin Kats, since I'm supposed to be finishing up their website right now.

The closest main street to where I live becomes 8 Mile traveling west, and goes to Grosse Pointe traveling east. So I live between the movie 8 Mile and the movie Grosse Pointe Blank, mansions on the east of me, burnt out crack houses on the west. Here it's excrusiatingly average. And it's friggin' cold.

[Clara]

Hi scarebear :) welcome.

[jjt]

You feel Old!! At 45 I feel positively ancient on this forum. It's great to have some older voices here, I enjoy the perspectives those who have been through a lot of life experience as an INTP. I'm not sure but my guess is that many INTP's pack a lot of interesting experiences into one lifetime, as they are always looking for new interests to grab them.
Welcome. :)

[Zero Angel]

Hi. You have a very interesting website and blogs. Welcome.

[mgb]

Your username reminds me of carebears...I keep thinking there will be a whole bunch of you lining up and shooting logos at me from your chests.

Hello and welcome.

[scarebear]

The username is a play on carebears. I don't shoot logos out of my chest. Maybe out of my head, my stylus and wacom tablet and my computer, but not out of my chest.

I always thought of myself as an honorary Canadian, which is silly of course. But I grew up on late night Canadian tv shows, and 1/8 of my coinage, at any given time, is Canadian. I listen to CBC radio and watch Canadian tv all the time. Michigan's Governor Jennifer Granholm is originally from Canada. I also like Rush, Muzion, and Matthew Good. That should count as something.

[mgb]

That's crazy, I don't even listen to CBC radio :D

[Edmond Zedo]

"I'd say 'Welcome,' friend. But not here, not like this."

[Valtro434]

I'm from the US, not that all that proud to be from the US these days... I live close enough to Canada to be able to pretend I'm Canadian, but I'm compelled to be truthful.

Been browsing around the forum, so far I feel at home, and that is so unusual. I started a group on myspace for INTP's and was directed here, so here I am.

Um, I should either be working or sleeping, but I was curious so I decided to check this out.

I'm a graphic designer/webmaster/photographer. I am online pretty much all the time. I would tell you the links, but everything needs to be updated. If you're truly curious, my myspace page is: profiles.myspace.com (http://profiles.myspace.com/users/4129345)
And it's all there, my blog, links to all the things I am involved in. I spend way too much time there.

Anyway, if you want the short version of who I am... let me see... I am nice. But anti-social... but nice... I am sort of somewhere between hippie and goth. Too dark and intense for most hippies, and too wholesome for most goths. And I am somewhere between geek and artist. Too intellectual for most artists, too bohemian for most geeks. I am a hybrid in the physical sense as well, of Mexican heritage on my mother's side, German on my father's.

And I am into music to an obsessive degree.

That's about it.

If anyone uses myspace, feel free to join the Myspace INTP group:
http://groups.myspace.com/INTP

Also, if anyone uses audioscrobbler, feel free to join the INTP group there:
http://www.audioscrobbler.com/group/INTP

Don't worry, we aren't that proud of you either sweetie.

So are you too communist to be a real American and too afraid to leave?

Just curious.

[cjs55]

Valtro, emotional chauvinistic responses won't make you many friends here. And I would hope none.

Maybe when someone introduces themselves as a non-INTP we should just ban them on the spot? Could save us some trouble in the long run.

[cjs55]

On the other hand to the original poster: Canada isn't anything special either.

Anyways, welcome.

[Edmond Zedo]

u r all tool...z0rz!

[mgb]

Ban is such a great buzzword!

You sound cool scarebear. We accept you into our fold.

[matthew0028]

Hi. :hello:

[Valtro434]

Valtro, emotional chauvinistic responses won't make you many friends here. And I would hope none.

Maybe when someone introduces themselves as a non-INTP we should just ban them on the spot? Could save us some trouble in the long run.

Oh please, lighten up.

If the first pert of your introduction is "I AM SO ASHAMED OF AMERICA" should you really just expect everyone to say "YAY! GOOD FOR YOU!"?

I didn't come here so much to make friends or enemies as to make conversation.

Is it just me, because I thought that much of the joy that NTs find in holding controversial opinions is in flaunting them and defending them.

I have plenty of controversial beliefs (none of them racist or sexist, thank you) but I dont go tossing them out in forums full of intelligent people unless I am prepared for criticism and opposition.

So despite what I said, I have nothing against the girl at all - I hope she stays here and enjoys it.

[cjs55]

So despite what I said, I have nothing against the girl at all - I hope she stays here and enjoys it.
You should have probably mentioned that after your comment then, thats the generally recognized way to attack someone in their introduction and get away with it. Its a wonderful way to insult someone. Just go: "You suck. Nah actually, you're cool."

The way in which you said your comment was not INTP-like (or at least extremely rarely). It sounded much more like an ESTJ speaking. Thus I would expect some aversion to it in an INTP forum, where SJs are indeed our mortal enemies (it sounds so funny, but its true). Anyways, INTPs usually use a more indirect style of attack and are much more comfortable with that. Here, look at Zedo, he's pretty good at this in an INFJ intro thread:

I will think just that (you can't hold your own), until you prove me wrong. Zedo has way too much NF experience to give one the benefit of the doubt. I've just discovered I like talking about myself in the third person. *plans to do it often*

I'd still nearly prefer NFs to only have the option to post "Yr smart" or "I wuv you," always.

This is well done because there are no direct attacks, but plenty of indirect ones which the NF could simply disprove by acting in a certain why. Ad hominem attacks are almost always useless, except occasionally for fun, but then their place is not an intro thread. Zedo is talking above in general statements to indirectly cause assumptions on the poster that are not necessarily true (which is admitted by Zedo). This isn't ad hominem in my opinion. However, Your post was a chauvanistic ad hominem and thus would have been pretty funny if I didn't think it was serious.

And on the subject of what you said: I think most recent criticism of the USA would be on foreign policy and the most recent war, not internal issues (which is somewhat of a mistake in my opinion). Thus having nothing to do with being Communist (which I think was at least somewhat a joke), or being too scared to leave (because the issues being criticized aren't internal ones).


PS Oh and, pretty hypocritically considering my last few points, I was doing a bit of the same myself here that you did in your post. I won't lie, when I see a post like yours my first reaction is usually, 'here's someone I could probably really annoy'. Maybe because it sounded so much like an ESTJ. And yes, I know you are an ENTP, not an ESTJ.

[Valtro434]

I completely see your point and honestly, I did feel just a teensy bit bad about being that confrontational in an intro thread.

I do agree with what you said in general.

One tactic that I like to use in arguements is to start off with an argument that sounds rigid and like a position I cannot support very well. This usually draw a reaction calibrated for a person of modest argumentative powers (ie: an ESTJ - and yes, like most of you, they drive me crazy). Later, I like to continue to take the same position, but in a much more competent style. Am I an argument hustler? hmm.

ENTPs like confrontational arguemtents. We like to mix our attacks with all sorts of things and see what our opponents pick up on. INTPs may have trouble understanding why we can be so agressive, but to us, the one thing we value more than a good friend is a worthy adversary.

Look, I used to be all counter culturey and "different" and when we are young, especially young and smart, we try to define our selves - we are a lot like THIS group, except in THIS way which makes us unique. I always had friends in all flavors and while I am just a little too old to have had goth friends, I am sure I would have enjoyed them. I have read quite a bit about the goth subculture and OH! have I mentioned that I really like vampire movies!?

Is that an appology? I'm not sure.

[Geoff]

I think she is entitled to feel how she wants about her own country, and of course she wont make friends with 'everyone' by saying she is ashamed of america, not everyone here is american either. But I can see why there was the reaction there was.
We are all entitled to our opinions, and she didnt say anything too strong, for the response she got, but then it is easy to read more into words than are intended.
Play nicely people!
-Geoff

PS CBC... really? Yawwwwnnnn

[scarebear]

First off, I said that I wasn't that proud of America right now. I thought that would be generally accepted in a place full of INTPs, and a nice peace offering to people from other countries.

I guess I was very wrong.

And, if America is ashamed of me, then I sort of delight in that. And I certainly understand it. They aren't like me, I'm not like them. They love their cars and their lawn, I love ideas and creating things.

The whole story is that I am both ashamed and proud. But more ashamed than proud. If I were really ashamed, I would be looking for somewhere else to live, but I have hope that things will get better. I have hope that I can go to the most closed-minded and remote places in this country, and not be treated like a foreigner because of the way I look, as I was in my own hometown.

On my father's side, it was my great-great grandparents who came to America from Germany. On my mother's side, that depends. Some of them have only been in America for a few generations, others have been in this country since before they called it America. My experience has been, even though I grew up in the town where my father grew up, until I moved away, there wasn't a day that went by when someone didn't ask me where I was from, people who went to kindergarten with me.

So, I hope you understand that anyone with Native American blood has trouble being proud of this country, especially now. And since I don't believe in the Corporate takeover of our country, and all the lying and misrepresentation done by our leaders, and using our country's military to make billions of dollars for the corporate world, then yes, ashamed is a good word. Disappointed and concerned, are better words.

Now that I've lived in other places, I am not so keen on leaving. America isn't all like the place where I grew up. Some of the places here in the States, some of the people, are pretty awesome.

I don't believe in any government system. I believe in people. If the people have honor, then any government will do. If they don't, then no government will work.

[Sally]

Just wanted to say that I am deeply ashamed of America as well. Or rather - I feel betrayed. Because I returned from living abroad a few months ago, was *so glad* to be back, was *so glad* to be home, had spent months assuring my foreign friends that Bush was just a big mistake, an unfortunate mistake, an unfortunate *theft* even, but Americans weren't completely stupid and just give us 'til the election.

And then - he won. Fair and square. And I still haven't forgiven the American people for being so ignorant, so selfish, so *willingly* self-delusional. I still can't discuss it with any sort of clear head. I'm still upset beyond what my logical brain can handle. Because it defies logic. I don't understand how *so many* people could hurt the world this way. I don't understand at all.

And I can't move. Because I've lived abroad, and I know that I am an American and will never find a place in another society like the anti-social little niche I've grown into here.

I'm an American, but I'm in the liberal minority.

[Valtro434]

Well good for you for replying.

Since we are all NTs here, I would like to point out that if you are complaining about people in your small town not accepting your "goth" (or whatever) appearance, you did choose that appearance. A lot of people choose appearances that are out of the main stream and then expect to be treated normally.

This is a challenge to the superfisciality of society. I say great, go for it but don't be suprised that (some) people treat you differenlty.

ENTPs (or at least me) like to do things to stress other people to see how they will behave - in this way, we learn who is resiliant, who is interesting and who is a pansy.

It seems to me that you are doing something similar. Your appearance acts as a filter - conveniently filtering out those people who judge you on your looks and leaving those who are willing to see what you are really about.

[Valtro434]

Just wanted to say that I am deeply ashamed of America as well. Or rather - I feel betrayed. Because I returned from living abroad a few months ago, was *so glad* to be back, was *so glad* to be home, had spent months assuring my foreign friends that Bush was just a big mistake, an unfortunate mistake, an unfortunate *theft* even, but Americans weren't completely stupid and just give us 'til the election.

And then - he won. Fair and square. And I still haven't forgiven the American people for being so ignorant, so selfish, so *willingly* self-delusional. I still can't discuss it with any sort of clear head. I'm still upset beyond what my logical brain can handle. Because it defies logic. I don't understand how *so many* people could hurt the world this way. I don't understand at all.

And I can't move. Because I've lived abroad, and I know that I am an American and will never find a place in another society like the anti-social little niche I've grown into here.

I'm an American, but I'm in the liberal minority.

I find it interesting that your definition of "ignorant" seems to be "people who have a world view that is different from my own.".

The past election was a difficult decision between two men with plenty of flaws. While I definately have issues with Mr. Bush, I think that in general, the wars in the middle east have done more good than bad. Sure there are problems and mistakes and maybe the intel did not pan out, but a lot of us were tired of taking out a tent with a cruise missile every time someone blew some of our people up.

And I suspect that the motives of most people who vited for Mr. Bush were not "lets really hurt the world", but how about we protect American interests and go kick some ass.

The beauty of a democratic republic is that we get to choose our leaders. We may all choose them for different reasons, but to presume that everyone is "stupid" because they value certain things that you do not value and hold lower things that you hold higher is, and let me be charitable here; "a position worth reconsidering".

[scarebear]

Why do I get that all the time? I'm not goth. I'm not emo. I am not a hippie. I'm not angry about it, just confused.

I meant because I wasn't as aryan looking as everyone else, I really stood out. There was no choice there. I couldn't put my blue contacts and cheekbone inplants in before leaving off to school. (Which I probably would have done to make my life a little easier, but they didn't have colored contacts then.)

But now, whenever I'm not in an inbred small town, I have to tell people that I am not white, whenever they start talking smack about this Simoan person or that Argentinian, because everyone assumes that I'm white. Because, in their thinking, if I were Hispanic I would sound like it, look more Hispanic, or at least know some Spanish. Here in Detroit I sound so white that people usually laugh at me.

[Valtro434]

Why do I get that all the time? I'm not goth. I'm not emo. I am not a hippie. I'm not angry about it, just confused.

I meant because I wasn't as aryan looking as everyone else, I really stood out. There was no choice there. I couldn't put my blue contacts and cheekbone inplants in before leaving off to school. (Which I probably would have done to make my life a little easier, but they didn't have colored contacts then.)

But now, whenever I'm not in an inbred small town, I have to tell people that I am not white, whenever they start talking smack about this Simoan person or that Argentinian, because everyone assumes that I'm white. Because, in their thinking, if I were Hispanic I would sound like it, look more Hispanic, or at least know some Spanish. Here in Detroit I sound so white that people usually laugh at me.

Well, now I am confused too.

Stop shattering my mental image of you, it is tiring to rebuild it.

And why do you hang out with a bunch of smack talking racist losers?

[scarebear]

Valtro434, when I saw you were from Texas, I knew you were going to be a problem. My mother is from Texas. And my dad loved his guns. So I doubt you can really phase me. Unless you say something about me being short. Then I will go off and cry.

I don't hang out with smack talking racist losers. But you can't always help who you work with, now can ya?

[scarebear]

Can I start over?

[kuranes]

Can I start over?
You sound pretty cool to me! I can relate to your views. ( As a side note I tend to be attracted to women who are a combination of Mexican and German. Linda Ronstadt is an example. ) I'm older than you are, so no problems in the age department. I live not far from you in Chicago. I'm not sure that Bush did win the election "fair and square" but I don't feel like getting into a long time consuming online debate about it either, for those reading this. Even friends of mine who are conservative amaze me when they are unwilling to even LOOK at something like Michael Moore's movie, having already been told by pundits of the Rush Limbaugh variety that it is "disengenuous", which they assume is a ten dollar word for "lies." I didn't agree with every claim he made in the movie either. That doesn't mean that it's "like a pan with 'only' ONE hole in the bottom". However i'm embarassed for Liberals when they jump on Bush for saying something like "We will never actually win the war on Terrorism." He meant that we could never eliminate every person who conceivably might take militant action against us. Pound sand down every rathole etc. Of course we can't "win" it like that. It seems that both sides can often be oblivious to common sense. Just dig their heels in and only respond to the pieces of an argument from "the other side" which they DON'T agree with, seeking tiny chinks in the logic. What about the pieces that DO make sense? For example, I think clear cutting large sections of old forest growth is usually a bad thing, but I do believe that we ought to at least have some roads heading back in the forests so that we can fight forest fires effectively. The argument is often presented as either you're for keeping the environment almost COMPLETELY untouched, or you're for wide open development with McDonalds on every corner, and people on all terrain vehicles tossing empty beer cans everywhere. Don't we have any middle ground in this country anymore?

[Geoff]

I dont think you need to start over, just recognise you can't keep all of the people happy all of the time ;)

-Geoff

[Valtro434]

Valtro434, when I saw you were from Texas, I knew you were going to be a problem. My mother is from Texas. And my dad loved his guns. So I doubt you can really phase me. Unless you say something about me being short. Then I will go off and cry.

I don't hang out with smack talking racist losers. But you can't always help who you work with, now can ya?

I have only lived in Texas for 1 year.

I lived 80% of my life in Northern California (a little in Oregon and 5 years in Alaska)

I am actually a libertarian, not a Republican and I will not hassle you for being short if you do not harass me for being fat ;)

And yes, it is hard to choose who you work with.

[Valtro434]

You sound pretty cool to me! I can relate to your views. ( As a side note I tend to be attracted to women who are a combination of Mexican and German. Linda Ronstadt is an example. ) I'm older than you are, so no problems in the age department. I live not far from you in Chicago. I'm not sure that Bush did win the election "fair and square" but I don't feel like getting into a long time consuming online debate about it either, for those reading this. Even friends of mine who are conservative amaze me when they are unwilling to even LOOK at something like Michael Moore's movie, having already been told by pundits of the Rush Limbaugh variety that it is "disengenuous", which they assume is a ten dollar word for "lies." I didn't agree with every claim he made in the movie either. That doesn't mean that it's "like a pan with 'only' ONE hole in the bottom". However i'm embarassed for Liberals when they jump on Bush for saying something like "We will never actually win the war on Terrorism." He meant that we could never eliminate every person who conceivably might take militant action against us. Pound sand down every rathole etc. Of course we can't "win" it like that. It seems that both sides can often be oblivious to common sense. Just dig their heels in and only respond to the pieces of an argument from "the other side" which they DON'T agree with, seeking tiny chinks in the logic. What about the pieces that DO make sense? For example, I think clear cutting large sections of old forest growth is usually a bad thing, but I do believe that we ought to at least have some roads heading back in the forests so that we can fight forest fires effectively. The argument is often presented as either you're for keeping the environment almost COMPLETELY untouched, or you're for wide open development with McDonalds on every corner, and people on all terrain vehicles tossing empty beer cans everywhere. Don't we have any middle ground in this country anymore?

Woa! Let me introduce you to my friend the paragraph.

Michael Moore is a good propagandist and essentially admits that that is what he is. Regardless of what Rush Libaugh says, Michael Moore does use deception in his films. The speech by Charlton Heston in Bowling for Columbine was several audio clips edited together to make Mr. Heston say things that he did not actually say - yes, he said each individual word, but Moore arranges them in new ways that create new meanings.

I admire Moore for his moxie and passion and I don't even mind him stretching the truth, lieing is a problem but I can even foregive that.

The problem is, he has a fundamentally different world view than I do - all the info he takes in and they way he processes it is totally different than me.

In a nutshell, I value liberty above all other political aims, I am not sure what his highest political aim is, but it most certainly is not liberty, perhaps it is peace or safety? Regardless, he is man with a different goal so I do not find his material helpful to me at all.

[Sally]

Good for me for going to sleep at a decent hour. For once.

I didn't mean to imply that all those who voted for Bush were ignorant, selfish, AND delusional, merely that they're some combination of the above.

You feel that the war in Iraq has done more good than harm. I would put that under ignorant and/or delusional. The death toll is somewhere around or over 100,000. I don't have an accurate number off the top of my head because I haven't heard one, not even a good guess, which suggests more to me about the media than anything else. We were under no threat from Iraqis. NO THREAT. They had nothing to do with Osama, they had no WMDs, so on the opposing scale of Lives Saved, I'd have to guess... Maybe the dozen or so of his own citizens Saddam would have had murdered since the war began.

Terrorists. Let's see, terrorists, a) Hate America, b) operate in secret, c) garner sympathy with their geographical and cultural neighbors, d) are a dispersed group. The war in Iraq a) makes many people who were ambivalent about America contemn and despise it, b) forces any resistant operations violent or non-violent underground, c) fosters unity amongst Arab peoples against the American threat, d) disrupts life, creating countless hopeless, angry refugees. I don't think we could have possibly done anything better to Help terrorism than this war.

As for democracy, I've had it. People are sheep. They respond best to manipulation. I'm more pissed off at the Democrats than the Republicans. They needed to play hard ball for this one, and they came up with NOTHING.

As for the goth thing, I'm not quite sure how you arrived at that conclusion. I generally try not to stand out in public. I do live in the Bible Belt at the moment, so it's very easy to feel that one is anti-social and a minority simply by not flaunting an All-American Christian type persona. Hope that clears up the confusion.

I understand what you're saying about testing people, and it Would apply to me, If I were a goth. I'm not talking about appearances; I'm talking about Ideas. And I'd go into further detail, but now I've got to run to work.

[scarebear]

Personally speaking, I'm sick to death of politics. I used to be a Democrat with Green Party leanings, now I will vote my conscience, Green Party all the way, knowing full well that it just doesn't matter.

If voting made any difference it would be illegal.

I don't think it was fair election, just a casual glance at the suppressed news and you will see all the curruption and tampering. (Remember the name Curtis Clinton, if he winds up dead, he was the programmer who can prove that the election was rigged.)

I'm trying to be satisfied with spending money only on products made by companies that aren't humongous and evil, since they are the ones pulling the puppet strings. I'm somewhat satisfied since this is something, rather than just grumbling about things.

Remember not to buy anything today, protest for the swearing in of the lamest, and evil-est president ever.

[Sally]

I hear you. The problem is, I'm Not sick of politics. Well, no, I'm disgusted and horrified and disturbed, but... I need to talk about it. And in the past year, I have not *once* had an intelligent conversation with someone who holds an opposing view point. It always breaks down into ad hominem accusations or emotional breakdown or just plain refusal to discuss. I *want* to understand why a logical person would vote for Bush. I want to *get* it, even if I disagree with it. That simply hasn't happened yet.

I am sorry your introductory post blew up this way. I'll happily move my political angst to a more appropriate sub-forum if I can drag along someone to argue with me. :}

And good for you for finding a way to protest that doesn't feel completely futile!

[Valtro434]

Sally, I was not under the impression that you were goth, I was under the mistaken impression that Scarebear was.

I think removing Saddam and the Baathist party was a worthy goal. Saddam has been a bully in that region since day one. He has murdered tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people in his country and in others. The Iraqi people are better off without him.

After the defeat of Saddams regime, some people decided to keep fighting for the Baathist party - probably because they knew they would be killed for their crimes when another party took power. Sadly, some were probably forced or deluded into fighting for the lost cause as well.

We are trying to setup a civilized government where people can have a business and an education and where there is some semblance of democracy. A small number of people have decided to keep attacking this process with guns and bombs and the proper response to these people is overwhelming force, usually resulting in their death. This troubles me not at all.

Yes, I have questions about the intel that said there was WMD there - but I think whether there was or was not, Saddam was intent on acquiring them and intent on using them against the west.

I also find your elitist attitudes disturbing. No good has ever come from the "betters" deciding what is best for their "lessers". This is the recipie for tyranny and opression. Democracy is imperfect and flawed, which is why it must always operate within the framework of essential and irrevokable personal liberty lest it devolve into "two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner".

You seem to both be political pragmatists, I am more idealistic in that I think that freedom causes more obvious problems (free speech, 5th ammendment, no search and siezure) for the government and maked it run very inefficiently - but I think these problems are utterly preferable to an efficient, government centered government where the trains always run on time, but we are burdened by excessive mala prohibitum.

[scarebear]

I think removing Saddam and the Baathist party was a worthy goal. Saddam has been a bully in that region since day one. He has murdered tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people in his country and in others. The Iraqi people are better off without him.

Well Valtro434, maybe the US Government should have taken Saddam out the same way they put him in, covertly and without our knowledge or concent.

I do what I do for my own state of mind. I boycott big evil companies because it makes me feel like I'm doing my part, not because they will feel the loss of one person's money. Or because the "betters" should decide what to do for the "lessers". Quite the opposite. I'm feeling like the lesser here with two elections that don't look like they were legitimate.

America got ourselves so deep in the mire because of the lack of intelligent decision-making going on every day, and from lack of honor. Science has been taken out of the hands of scientists and put into the hands of government and commerce. This wasn't something that heppened overnight. We gave our concent, little by little, piece by piece, day by day, because perhaps we felt powerless to do anything about it. We wanted to be blissfully unaware of what goes into making a product, if it's making a crime family unfathomably wealthy, who suffers and where, we don't want to know. We don't want to pay 2 more cents for the other product, and we don't want to feel guilty about it.

And like I said before, the problems in any group of people, no matter the size, from the office to the government, is dependant on their honor. Not much honor, then not much efficiency. Lots of honor, then lots of efficiency. And certainly some intelligence doesn't hurt.

Okay, done posting for today because I haven't slept in a really long time.

[Sally]

I think it'd be prudent to continue this elsewhere (http://www.intpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2154).

[crule81]

I'm from the Detroit area too. I live in Troy. I also like Rush. I have been mistaken for a Canadian by those in the East and South. I went to school for 7 years in those areas but decided to come back to Michigan. Most people ask why I would do something that stupid. Frankly, I like the place but I wish they could do something with the city itself. I have plans, but it would involve the abolition of city counsel, firing most current civil servants, and installing a dictator with absolute authority on a temporary basis.

Anyways, Welcome.

[Edmond Zedo]

I *want* to understand why a logical person would vote for Bush. I want to *get* it, even if I disagree with it. That simply hasn't happened yet.

I'm the most logical person I ever even heard of, and I did. If you want to know why, ask specific questions. I'd rather not write an essay.

[crule81]

I voted for Bush too. Many logical and intelligent people I know voted for Kerry or Nader. I'd much rather be around logical and intelligent people who hold opposing political views than be around cretans who share the same beliefs as me.

[EdwinJefferson]

Since a majority voted for Bush, and 3 of them I know to be INTPs who didn't want to follow the flock.. I would like to say there is little point voting if you don't want to vote, because you want that person to win and if that person wins they have a majority and you must be following the flock more so than the losing candidates.

[Edmond Zedo]

Democrats talk too f'ing much though. Very visible/audible. "Tax this, ban this, don't bomb this country, blah"

[EdwinJefferson]

Fox News is loud enough to here in this country though..

[scarebear]

No offense but I can't put logic behind voting for Bush. Not economically, not socially, not environmentally, not in any way I can think of. But I do know very logical people who have. It's baffling. It's like having a good friend who doesn't know they have a bad haircut. They think it's great, and you can't tell them otherwise, and you don't really want to, so talking about it is useless. One day they will know that they have a really ridiculous looking haircut, or they will go to their grave thinking it's great. But in the end, does it matter? Voting means less than your choice of a haircut. We vote in little things we do everyday, and means much more than an actual ballot.

[Warrior413]

I started a group on myspace for INTP's and was directed here, so here I am.


someone in #intp told me about the myspace group a day or two ago. I am Clayton in the myspace group.
Me, all me! :devil:

Anyway... just to relate and so on I'm Mexican on my father's side and... Europeanish on my mother's. Welcome. I also can't find a logical reason for voting for Bush but I don't feel like arguing the point, at least not now.

[Sally]

I'm the most logical person I ever even heard of, and I did. If you want to know why, ask specific questions. I'd rather not write an essay.

Ok, specific question: Which issue sealed the deal? I'd ask for your views on all the issues, but you said you'd prefer not to write an essay. If you'd like to answer me privately, that'd be fine. I got the impression scarebear is sick of politics. :}

[Edmond Zedo]

1. Gun control policy. Ownership is a real freedom I never want the country to lose. More than it has already, anyway. This freedom has the ability to physically defend others if the SHTF. I truly believe those who would deny it to us deserve no quarter, no matter their "good intentions."
2. International policy. I'm for "Iraq" and the brand of politics which would do that sort of thing, unlike the Clinton Admin, which barely acted, and when did...Pussyfooted.
3. Dick Cheney. Ti-Ne tells me he's 1., INTP and ultra-smart, and 2., as much responsible for every decision as Bush is.
4. I hate modern Democrats as much as you hate Bush, for opposition to reasons above and others.

[jyakulis]

No offense but I can't put logic behind voting for Bush. Not economically, not socially, not environmentally, not in any way I can think of. But I do know very logical people who have. It's baffling. It's like having a good friend who doesn't know they have a bad haircut. They think it's great, and you can't tell them otherwise, and you don't really want to, so talking about it is useless. One day they will know that they have a really ridiculous looking haircut, or they will go to their grave thinking it's great. But in the end, does it matter? Voting means less than your choice of a haircut. We vote in little things we do everyday, and means much more than an actual ballot.

Nothing irriatates me more than the Clinton economic debate. He got lucky!! Economics is cyclic. Pretty much any knowledgable economics professor will tell you that. But I've only had one econ class so I could be missing some things.....

[jyakulis]

I think reganomics has a more effective push on the economy. But that's just me, I think a lil deficit is healthy. A surplus to me is garbage. It means we aren't investing in anything and just sitting on our wealth. Like an old woman stuffing money under her bed and not receiving any interest back on it. But I could be off base again my knowledge of economics is slim....especially judging from my bank account.

[Sally]

Not that you asked, but...

1. Don't have much of an opinion. Where personal freedom is concerned, I feel more strongly about legalizing marijuana and prostitution. As for guns, I don't know nearly enough about the legislation at stake.

2. What is the purpose of the war in Iraq? Whom does it benefit? Besides Dick Cheney. I would be all for US aggression if we then took responsibility for the nations we manipulated/influenced/subjugated. But the way it stands now, we go in, get want we want, and then act like it's none of our business when, in the aftermath, the people endure conditions no one would even contemplate for US citizens. So perhaps the war in Iraq does have the effect of making US abuses of power more public. And yet I don't see this having noticeable results other than contributing to worldwide anti-American sentiment. I doubt the government will learn anything from it, and I as a citizen was much happier just ignoring it in the blissful and prosperous days of Clinton.

3. Dick Cheney is a genius. I am completely in awe. I just worry that he might not live long enough to enjoy it. But then I wouldn't be surprised if he'd secretly diverted the greatest scientific energies in the world into devising a scheme for very long, if not eternal, life. So - impressed? You betcha. Want him as a world leader? Hell no.

4. I hate the Democrats, too. They let Bush get elected. TWICE.

Questions for you:

1. What about the Patriot Act? If you're concerned with freedom, doesn't it scare the shit out of you? Not that it's likely that you personally will be affected by it (unless you look like a terrorist or act like a crazy liberal), but the principle of the thing...

2. Iraq. Again. Why? What about it makes it a good idea? More specifically, please.

[jyakulis]

2. Iraq. Again. Why? What about it makes it a good idea? More specifically, please.

We're stealing their mother fucking oil, that's what.

[jyakulis]

We're stealing their mother fucking oil, that's what.

Ohh and aren't the french too. Or so I heard, I don't watch the news much. After they bashed us for going in there. Then they are the first in line to soak up the benefits.

[Edmond Zedo]

Questions for you:

1. What about the Patriot Act? If you're concerned with freedom, doesn't it scare the shit out of you? Not that it's likely that you personally will be affected by it (unless you look like a terrorist or act like a crazy liberal), but the principle of the thing...

2. Iraq. Again. Why? What about it makes it a good idea? More specifically, please.
1. The Patriot Act sucks. I'd rather not people get the impression that I am a Republican, as I never have been. I simply prefer them to Democrats at the moment, overall.

2. You already sunk your own boat in the Iraq debate. Too late for reason!

[jyakulis]

The Patriot Act sucks. I'd rather not people get the impression that I am a Republican, as I never have been. I simply prefer them to Democrats at the moment, overall.

2. You already sunk your own boat in the Iraq debate. Too late for reason!


Heh nor am I. I just like to shake liberals up. They get so flustered.

[Sally]

The Patriot Act sucks. I'd rather not people get the impression that I am a Republican, as I never have been. I simply prefer them to Democrats at the moment, overall.

2. You already sunk your own boat in the Iraq debate. Too late for reason!

Because I don't give a fuck about Saddam's victims? I think that is reasonable. I'm more concerned with prevention than with revenge.

Back to Republicans. I'll freely admit, the Democrats aren't such hot shit right now, but the GOP has gone utterly 'round the bend. NeoCons. Christian-supremacists. Sure, maybe not all Republicans, but the extremists are the ones making impact. The Republican party right now seems highly illogical to me, their policies anyway. Joining the Republican party if only to wield some sort of power from the inside is looking more and more appealing.

[Edmond Zedo]

Back to Republicans. I'll freely admit, the Democrats aren't such hot shit right now, but the GOP has gone utterly 'round the bend. NeoCons. Christian-supremacists. Sure, maybe not all Republicans, but the extremists are the ones making impact. The Republican party right now seems highly illogical to me, their policies anyway. Joining the Republican party if only to wield some sort of power from the inside is looking more and more appealing.
Here's a personal opinion for you. I prefer Christian Supremacists to Arab Supremacists, or people who don't believe you have to be ruthless when fighting ruthless opponents.

[Sally]

Theft. Plunder. The Iraq War as outright piracy - I won't argue with you there. The utterly selfish side of me supports the war for that very reason. I don't want to pay higher gas prices! (Of course, some research into alternate fuel sources might be nice, too, but if we can go another half a generation without breaking a sweat, then who cares?) What irks me most is the fact that some people think it *isn't* purely about oil. No, they're spreading 'freedom' and such. People! I just don't understand them.

[Sally]

But if the Arab Supremacists are our opponents, then don't you think that waging a highly public and controversial war only fuels their propaganda machines?

[CoHo]

http://costofwar.com/

It has an interesting way of putting it.

[Edmond Zedo]

Theft. Plunder. The Iraq War as outright piracy - I won't argue with you there. The utterly selfish side of me supports the war for that very reason. I don't want to pay higher gas prices! (Of course, some research into alternate fuel sources might be nice, too, but if we can go another half a generation without breaking a sweat, then who cares?) What irks me most is the fact that some people think it *isn't* purely about oil. No, they're spreading 'freedom' and such. People! I just don't understand them.
Uh, I never said it was theft, or about oil. I don't think it is. We never seem to benefit financially from things of this nature.

[Sally]

I was responding to Jyakulis. In a somewhat facetious manner.

[Edmond Zedo]

But if the Arab Supremacists are our opponents, then don't you think that waging a highly public and controversial war only fuels their propaganda machines?
It shouldn't matter. We could return Arabia to dust pretty quickly if necessary. I would much rather that happen than one atomic device be detonated here, even if most people in both regions are idiots. This is MY region.

[Sally]

You think there was any chance of Them (I'm assuming you mean Iraq) detonating an atomic device here?

[Sally]

Not to mention the fact that many Arab Supremacists reside outside the Middle East, and I'm sure they'd have no problem spreading farther and farther afield the more the US 'hunts terrorism.' So unless you're planning to eventually anhiliate every population other than US citizens and very very *convincing* supporters........ I still don't see the overt warfare option as being particularly viable.

[CoHo]

As to annihilating the world... okay not really related to the subject at hand.

From a no-morals no-feelings point of view do you think reducing the planet to say 10,000 people and starting over would be all that bad of an idea?

[Edmond Zedo]

You think there was any chance of Them (I'm assuming you mean Iraq) detonating an atomic device here?
Sure, if not by the government, some organization within its borders. I'd not say in more likelyhood than from one of several other Arab states.

Militarily, we could probably get away with obliterating most of the Middle East, and it would be one less huge thing to worry about. Politically, this country might not survive!

[Edmond Zedo]

From a no-morals no-feelings point of view do you think reducing the planet to say 10,000 people and starting over would be all that bad of an idea?
What's the goal? Human advancement? No. General satisfaction for those 10,000 people? Yes.

[Sally]

long as I'm one of those 10,000, hell yeah.

You ever see this cheesy vampire/virus movie where, at the end, the surviving crew just ransack the mall and tear around the abandoned city in hot cars, wearing cool clothes? I've always wanted that to happen to me..... Not those exact wardrobe choices, but the notion of a depopulated world with the luxuries of civilisation still intact. *sigh* One can but dream.

[CoHo]

HAH!

Sure they weren't zombies? Sounds kind-of like Dawn of the Dead

http://www.bigsky.net/apoc/zombie.htm

p.s. that link has some interesting movie reviews

[Sally]

I guess it depends on where the biggest threat comes from. It it's nukes, then Iraq as a base of operations in the Middle East is a plus. If it's terrorism, then we're screwed, because the next generation is going to be smarter and angrier and have more support.

[Sally]

nah, i'm pretty sure it was vampires, though i could be confusing it some some other bad 80s flick.... but what i remember most is that, in the end, the chick is driving this red convertible and she comes to a stoplight and starts to break but then decides to run it, but then (oh irony!) the only other survivor on the planet races through the green and they get into a fender-bender, but he turns out to be a hot guy, so it's ok.

[Edmond Zedo]

long as I'm one of those 10,000, hell yeah.

You ever see this cheesy vampire/virus movie where, at the end, the surviving crew just ransack the mall and tear around the abandoned city in hot cars, wearing cool clothes? I've always wanted that to happen to me..... Not those exact wardrobe choices, but the notion of a depopulated world with the luxuries of civilisation still intact. *sigh* One can but dream.
Night of the Comet, "If I'm not mistaken."

[Sally]

But then it raises a few more questions. If anyone were to actually hit the US with something like an atomic weapon, they would be sure and certain of retalliation. They would be *expecting* it and thus have a retreat already prepared. They would not be a state government, because such an act would be suicide for any state government. No, the only people I see attacking the US are mobile organizations that may or may not be supported by state goverments. Their bases might be in specific countries, but they'd have to be ready to abandon them.

Right? Or am I missing something?

[Edmond Zedo]

but then (oh irony!) the only other survivor on the planet races through the green and they get into a fender-bender, but he turns out to be a hot guy, so it's ok.
Yeah, that's NotC. It was a COMET, and it left some people in a Zombified state.

[Edmond Zedo]

But then it raises a few more questions. If anyone were to actually hit the US with something like an atomic weapon, they would be sure and certain of retalliation. They would be *expecting* it and thus have a retreat already prepared. They would not be a state government, because such an act would be suicide for any state government. No, the only people I see attacking the US are mobile organizations that may or may not be supported by state goverments. Their bases might be in specific countries, but they'd have to be ready to abandon them.

Right? Or am I missing something?
Of course you're missing something. It almost surely would be a "terrorist organization," but if the US found out what country they came from, if there was even a hint that the country "harbored" them..."Bye bye!"

[Sally]

that sounds like it! or something similar. i'm probably remembering the vampire part from some oter movie.

ooh you know what else is good? when worlds collide. i loved that movie when i was a kid. <3 course, it would be a pain to start from scratch.

[Sally]

yes but that doesn't stop the Terrorists! it only creates more of them!

[Edmond Zedo]

yes but that doesn't stop the Terrorists! it only creates more of them!
At that point, who cares?

[Sally]

Us, as we're being attacked by them.

[Edmond Zedo]

Not I. Revenge is more important in a nuclear scenario. The deterrent must be real.

Watch Dr. Strangelove.

[CoHo]

What's the goal? Human advancement? No. General satisfaction for those 10,000 people? Yes.

Yeah, I can't say this is an opinion I feel super-strong about. But I find the subject matter interesting enough.

Have you ever read Neil Stephenson's "The Diamond Age". Abridged: They make a computer that is supposed to guide a child through their entire life (until 18 or so). Basically it talks to them in the early years, then it converts to very simple writing and the writing gets more complex as the child gets older. The entire "learning process" is in the form of a story of a young princess. The computer/book was called "The Young Lady's illustrated primer".

I guess I can see some benefit in taking a backup of our current state of knowledge and dropping the current population down to a minimum and re-building using "primers".

[Sally]

The deterrent is not getting nuked by the US. I really don't think that any government with the least interest in self-preservation is going to attack us directly. And terrorist organizations, which attack us readily, are not deterred by us nuking the shit out of Country X. It only helps their cause.

[Sally]

But the problem is that humans are shite no matter what you do. Sure, it might be great for a few generations, if that, but then you'd just have the same old problems in a new setting...

[CoHo]

But the problem is that humans are shite no matter what you do. Sure, it might be great for a few generations, if that, but then you'd just have the same old problems in a new setting...

Yeah, you're probably right. So maybe we should just create AI and admit that we should be phased out like the dinosaurs.

[Sally]

In other words -

Chances of nuclear holocaust: Slim.

Chances of terrorists disrupting our way of life: Already happening.

[Sally]

http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/resources/glf/glf.html

:}

[Edmond Zedo]

The deterrent is not getting nuked by the US. I really don't think that any government with the least interest in self-preservation is going to attack us directly. And terrorist organizations, which attack us readily, are not deterred by us nuking the shit out of Country X. It only helps their cause.
I've decided I'm too smart for you. This is just my opinion; I'm sure I'm wrong. :blink:

It's a deterrent to the nations which would potentially support the terrorists. Say Iran donated some Uranium to Ali Baba and the Nuclear Dweebs, who blew up downtown San Fran. The CIA figures out what happened, and we dust up Iran. Hence, "Hey Iran, don't fuck around or we'll...Dust you up."

[CoHo]

Say Iran donated some Uranium...

Say, I'm pretty dated on my knowledge of black market nuclear weapons. Wasn't Russia always the place to go if you wanted a nuclear bomb? Didn't they have huge "GOING OUT OF BUSINESS 1/2 OFF" signs over their nuclear reactors or something?

So same situation but a group bought/stole a Russian warhead. Turning Iran into a glass factory isn't all that difficult, but what about when the enemy has several thousand ICBMs already pointed at us?

I guess that's where the missile shield idea comes in.

[Sally]

The assumption here is that governments would fund terrorism in a way that is readily apparent to us. The CIA's track record is, so far, shit awful. Any Middle Eastern country could be suspected of funding terrorism. Hell, they probably all are. So the chances of any particular country getting invaded have nothing to do with actual funds going to actual terrorism but what would be most politically beneficial to whatever US party is in power. Meanwhile, no matter which country we blow to pieces, terrorist organizations more than make up for it in recruits.

And meanwhile, while aren't getting nuked, domestic policy in the US is going all to hell because Terrorists Are Among Us!

[Edmond Zedo]

I guess that's where the missile shield idea comes in.
One less thing to worry so much about.

Russia doesn't seem to be run by crazy summummaguns who want to meet Allah in paradise after slaying The Great Satan, either.

[Edmond Zedo]

The assumption here is that governments would fund terrorism in a way that is readily apparent to us. The CIA's track record is, so far, shit awful. Any Middle Eastern country could be suspected of funding terrorism. Hell, they probably all are. So the chances of any particular country getting invaded have nothing to do with actual funds going to actual terrorism but what would be most politically beneficial to whatever US party is in power. Meanwhile, no matter which country we blow to pieces, terrorist organizations more than make up for it in recruits.

And meanwhile, while aren't getting nuked, domestic policy in the US is going all to hell because Terrorists Are Among Us!
WE CAN'T WIN. GENERAL, RE-TARGET FIVE ICBMS IN KANSAS TO OUR COORDINATES, AND GIVE US HELL.

[CoHo]

Yeah, I don't understand the reasoning behind missiles hitting missiles. I always thought a orbital satellite bristling with railguns would work much better.

[Sally]

I wouldn't put it past 'em..........

But honestly. Why do you think that some well-organized, devastating attack on US soil that would certainly result in Bad Things for whichever region of the world sent it is more likely than small, realtively disorganized Terrorist attacks that, I'll repeat, have already affected domestic policy in this country?

[Edmond Zedo]

Yeah, I don't understand the reasoning behind missiles hitting missiles. I always thought a orbital satellite bristling with railguns would work much better.
I know where yer comin from. I thought we should contract Tinkerbell to sprinkle some fairy dust on them SoveeYET nukes.

[lexiphanic]

Yeah, I don't understand the reasoning behind missiles hitting missiles. I always thought a orbital satellite bristling with railguns would work much better.

Agreed. However, that would work better for the intercontinental ballistic missiles as then you don't need to worry about that pesky atmosphere. Although as Edmond is 'hinting' at, the technology isn't quite there yet to my knowledge. We'd probably still need missiles for anything in the atmosphere.