INTP Fascism

[MasterMerk]

From Wikipedia:


Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and other societal interests inferior to the needs of the state, and seeks to forge a type of national unity, usually based on ethnic, religious, cultural, or racial attributes.


- or, you could say, seeks to forge a national unity based upon typist attributes.

Now we could assume that, from the beginning, INTPs would not be susceptible to authoritarian attitudes, let alone fascist ones.

An illustration of this from the typelogic INTP profile:


"INTPs are relatively easy-going and amenable to most anything until their principles are violated, about which they may become outspoken and inflexible. They prefer to return, however, to a reserved albeit benign ambiance, not wishing to make spectacles of themselves... INTPs in the main are not clannish...."


And once more from Paul James' lengthy exposition:



... INTPs make very poor leaders, for they depend too much on the attitudes of others. This is one of the negative sides of the Ne function. INTPs tend to jump to intuitive conclusions, can be fatalistic and have little perseverence. On the other hand, they can make very good assistants to leaders, provided they and the leader are of one mind, for their perceptive analysis can give the leadership useful insights which they may overlook, being too busy with leading. Indeed, INTPs are often glad when someone else takes over the lead, again providing the leader is of the same mind. An INTPs ideal is to provide all the ideas for a project and have a charismatic leader, who agrees with him, carry them out.

Considering these usually well accepted facets of the INTP personality, we can make some basic conclusions based on our current situation here.

If anything, these "INTP nationals", if they could even be called INTPs at all, give our traditionally humble type a sour name. This rampant sanctimony is a hollow spectacle; if any of the admins who support the idea of removing non-intps were truly serious about their convictions they would have already taken action, as opposed their pathetic attention whoring via consistently teasing naysayers and non-intps alike, endlessly beating a dead horse.

In authoritarian systems, shit rises. Those who desire power over others will usually seek it, directly or indirectly. Us INTPs, ever so naive, trusting and nonchalant when it comes to such matters, lightly step aside. The problem is that only the most arrogant and self-righteous minded among us suffer from this desire for ego-gratification, and consenting to such arrangements freely means that the majority will be at the whims of the masturbatory fantasies of bullshit elitists, cults of personality, and so on.

This is an INTP forum. The majority here are INTPs. When did our tolerance devolve into a sad state of piety? If my guess is correct I'd say for most of you it hasn't.

So then, why shouldn't our administrative motto be one of non-interference? Ask yourself if this is how an INTP would truly run things, if they would "run things" at all.

As INTPs, we should at least be the voice of clarity amidst irrationality. I want to hear from the conscientious objectors out there. Fascist cocksuckers (we know you're out there) need not come to the rescue of the Reich.

[SolitaryWalker]

From Wikipedia:


- or, you could say, seeks to forge a national unity based upon typist attributes.

Now we could assume that, from the beginning, INTPs would not be susceptible to authoritarian attitudes, let alone fascist ones.

An illustration of this from the typelogic INTP profile:


And once more from Paul James' lengthy exposition:



Considering these usually well accepted facets of the INTP personality, we can make some basic conclusions based on our current situation here.

If anything, these "INTP nationals", if they could even be called INTPs at all, give our traditionally humble type a sour name. This rampant sanctimony is a hollow spectacle; if any of the admins who support the idea of removing non-intps were truly serious about their convictions they would have already taken action, as opposed their pathetic attention whoring via consistently teasing naysayers and non-intps alike, endlessly beating a dead horse.

In authoritarian systems, shit rises. Those who desire power over others will usually seek it, directly or indirectly. Us INTPs, ever so naive, trusting and nonchalant when it comes to such matters, lightly step aside. The problem is that only the most arrogant and self-righteous minded among us suffer from this desire for ego-gratification, and consenting to such arrangements freely means that the majority will be at the whims of the masturbatory fantasies of bullshit elitists, cults of personality, and so on.

This is an INTP forum. The majority here are INTPs. When did our tolerance devolve into a sad state of piety? If my guess is correct I'd say for most of you it hasn't.

So then, why shouldn't our administrative motto be one of non-interference? Ask yourself if this is how an INTP would truly run things, if they would "run things" at all.

As INTPs, we should at least be the voice of clarity amidst irrationality. I want to hear from the conscientious objectors out there. Fascist cocksuckers (we know you're out there) need not come to the rescue of the Reich.


Well said.

[Anonymous]

Well, it's not like the main supporters of this are making mindless propaganda and trying to brainwash us into their beliefs. Yes, what's going on does slightly jive with that wiki quote, but true fascism goes much deeper than that. I've seen a lot of reasonable arguments as to why this forum should be INTP only, and although I don't necessarily 100% agree with that, I don't think that they're exactly psychotic dictators trying to gain absolute power and completely eradicate any opposition.

Edit: Ok, so maybe they are trying to completely eradicate any opposition, and maybe the do have absolute power, and some would say that a few are psychotic, but still... their intentions aren't bad?

[Herr_Rosen]

http://radicalgraphics.org/albums/Zapatistas/EZLN.sized.jpg

Libertad para los INTP!

[cjs55]

Well, I'm actually quite fond of fascism as an ideal, but I'm hardly in a position of power...

But I suppose I'm not an INTP in the first place. I tip my psychotic hat to you sir, you have outed me!

[MasterMerk]

Well, it's not like the main supporters of this are making mindless propaganda and trying to brainwash us into their beliefs. Yes, what's going on does slightly jive with that wiki quote, but true fascism goes much deeper than that. I've seen a lot of reasonable arguments as to why this forum should be INTP only, and although I don't necessarily 100% agree with that, I don't think that they're exactly psychotic dictators trying to gain absolute power and completely eradicate any opposition.

There have been absolutely no satisfactory arguments given.



Edit: Ok, so maybe they are trying to completely eradicate any opposition, and maybe the do have absolute power, and some would say that a few are psychotic, but still... their intentions aren't bad?

You just answered your own question.

[Ivy]

Edit: Ok, so maybe they are trying to completely eradicate any opposition, and maybe the do have absolute power, and some would say that a few are psychotic, but still... their intentions aren't bad?

Who's this "they?"

[omnirook]

I have objected to the proposed policies of either banning or restricting other types. Any member, regardless of type, so long as that member follows the Forum's rules, should be allowed access to all member areas, whether to read or to post.

First, there is NO objective way to prove that any member is this or that type. Anybody can claim to be an INTP - just to avoid being ostracized. In keeping w/your post's theme - just think of all the thousands of NAZI Party "members" who joined just so that they could get jobs and not be harrassed day in and day out. Another, more recent example would be BAATH Party "members." The Bush Misadminstration's policy of banning BAATH Party members from taking government jobs in Iraq has left Iraq bereft of anybody w/the least skill to take any government job.

Second, in the wider world, the INTP type is the least liked and most misunderstood - does it really help us as a group to become snobs?

I would go so far as to say that non-INTP's should also be eligible for moderator openings. We are not patricians, and this is not early Rome - a member is a member. Active, non-INTP members who post regularly contribute far more than the many, inactive, "token" INTP members who joined and never bothered coming back.

[Anonymous]

Who's this "they?"

Sshh, if I say their names, I might disappear in the night.

[Blue]

Who's this "they?"
I was wondering too.


if they could even be called INTPs at all,This really brings out the irony.

why shouldn't our administrative motto be one of non-interference? Ask yourself if this is how an INTP would truly run things, if they would "run things" at all.You're running on the anarchist ticket?

[MasterMerk]

This really brings out the irony.


It does. As Omnirook said, there is no way of proving anyone INTP or not. If you can admit to variance among individual INTPs, even extending towards authoritarian tendencies, then you can surely extend variance among non-INTPs. The main arguments put forward for restricting non-intps due to their inherent attributes falls flat here. To add, non-intps already put "INTP" in their profiles and nobody notices.

If you were to say there IS such a thing as "INTPness", and that this is most clearly embodied in the profiles that we look towards and accept as INTP canon (as much as to even be placed on this site) then it is certain that some of the leadership here are clearly not INTPs. Self hating non-INTPs, perhaps? Agent Provocateurs? You gotta love a good conspiracy.


You're running on the anarchist ticket?

Always the best way to approach the question of the (un)necessary uses of authority.

[Blue]

I am not a strong advocate for or against non-intp exile. I do see problems with calling it a free-for-all. What exactly are you proposing?

[Avengardh]

Wow...I tip my chook to you, sir :chook:.

[Rajah]

I'll just assume you haven't read posts today on these issues. So, you go ahead and do that, and then we can talk.

Kthx.

[MasterMerk]

I am not a strong advocate for or against non-intp exile. I do see problems with calling it a free-for-all. What exactly are you proposing?

Based on the aforementioned idea: No restrictions, no bannings, no more bullshit. The INTPs (and non-intps alike) need be free, yo. This quality control crap is getting tedious, nobody cares for it.

Trolls/Spammers are easy to determine and deal with accordingly. Anything else is redundant.

[Blue]

Based on the aforementioned idea: No restrictions, no bannings, no more bullshit. The INTPs (and non-intps alike) need be free, yo. This quality control crap is getting tedious, nobody cares for it.

Trolls/Spammers are easy to determine and deal with accordingly. Anything else is redundant.

Several members care for it. Otherwise it would be a nonissue. How do you distinguish between a spammer/troll and someone who repeatedly posts drivel? Isn't that quality control?

[MasterMerk]

Several members care for it. Otherwise it would be a nonissue. How do you distinguish between a spammer and someone who repeatedly posts drivel? Isn't that quality control?

This is a matter of opinion. Posters can unanimously agree upon banning a poster who clogs the forum up with nonsense syllables. But with someone like Seawolf or FranG, you will find most people don't give a shit about the "quality" of the postings as long as they're not too distracting. At what percentage of "giving a shitness" do you draw the line and say, ok, let's ban the fucker? There's no set down procedure for dealing with this and you can only assume it will be inconsistent as hell.



I'll just assume you haven't read posts today on these issues. So, you go ahead and do that, and then we can talk.

Kthx.

Point them out for me in greater specification and I will, ese.

[HackerX]

Hell, it's what I was thinking.

[Blue]

This is a matter of opinion. Posters can unanimously agree upon banning a poster who clogs the forum up with nonsense syllables. But with someone like Seawolf or FranG, you will find most people don't give a shit about the "quality" of the postings as long as they're not too distracting. At what percentage of "giving a shitness" do you draw the line and say, ok, let's ban the fucker? There's no set down procedure for dealing with this and you can only assume it will be inconsistent as hell.
Unanimity? When was the last time everyone agreed on anything? Especially in an INTP forum. That's because it's really tough to make hard and fast rules that deal with human behavior. Arguing that a process is inconsistent isn't an argument for doing away with it.

I have to wonder how serious you are when you use words like fascist cocksuckers and Reich to describe an Internet forum administration. These people haven't killed your family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B) and taken you from your home. INTPc is the most anything goes forum I've ever come across.

As far as I can tell, the majority of posters (especially those who've been here awhile) agree that the site quality is going down. They agree that this is a bad thing. The consensus looks against you here MM.

We have a consistent pattern though. Every time talk of lower tolerance policy comes up you know someone's gonna throw down Godwins Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law) and make a stink.

Read the link in my sig. A Group is it's Own Worst Enemy. (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=20991)

[MasterMerk]

Unanimity? When was the last time everyone agreed on anything? Especially in an INTP forum. That's because it's really tough to make hard and fast rules that deal with human behavior. Arguing that a process is inconsistent isn't an argument for doing away with it.


You must understand my point. If the system was well thought out, and involved a percentage, a poll of people who thought said member should be dealt with, I might go for it. But for obvious spammers, trolls, etc. People who are just crapping on and saying absolutely nothing, i.e. nonsense, you can assume pragmatically, and for speediness' sake that everyone would agree to get rid of them.



I have to wonder how serious you are when you use words like fascist cocksuckers and Reich to describe an Internet forum administration. These people haven't killed your family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B) and taken you from your home. INTPc is the most anything goes forum I've ever come across.


It's obvious this is a forum and not the real world. I am using the word fascist less FOR GREAT JUSTICE and more to satirically illustrate a point: is this what we want? How INTP is it to ban non-intps? This relates more in general to the quality control ideas than just this singular proposal.



As far as I can tell, the majority of posters (especially those who've been here awhile) agree that the site quality is going down. They agree that this is a bad thing. The consensus looks against you here MM.

We have a consistent pattern though. Every time talk of lower tolerance policy comes up you know someone's gonna throw down Godwins Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law) and make a stink.

Not at all. I'd agree the site quality has gone down, but I pin the blame more on certain individuals, self proclaimed INTPs or not, creating a stir and proposing ridiculous quality control measures that make absolutely no sense. I won't add to the drama by naming names, but I do know that it's not making things any more enjoyable here.

I can stand fluff, I can stand odd, or even unpopular viewpoints. Spam is ok if it's kept in Purg - shit, it's funny. Why should I care if I can just ignore people I don't agree with, and as long as they aren't fucking with me?

[Hustler]

Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and other societal interests inferior to the needs of the state, and seeks to forge a type of national unity, usually based on ethnic, religious, cultural, or racial attributes.
Wait, we're starting the INTP Central nation? A state? I thought we were just a marginally-selective social network on the internet. Just curious, but if establishing a social network that is predicated on qualities associated with a personality type is fascist, would MENSA, which restricts its entries based on performance on an IQ test, also be considered a fascist entity?

Anyway, the arguments in this thread are both absurd and, in essence, pure hyperbole.

[Hustler]

So then, why shouldn't our administrative motto be one of non-interference? Ask yourself if this is how an INTP would truly run things, if they would "run things" at all.
This is perhaps the most important point to consider. And so I ask you, MasterMerk, what would you not have done that this administration has done?

[Xander]

MM,
Great. I'd been thinking similarly myself. Glad I'm not the only one who considers this sweeping judgement to be extremely un INTP.

It would seem obvious that if there is such backlash off the INTP community here then what is being attempted is either
1- Something the other INTPs have thought off and they are at present of the opinion that it's BS but could be persuaded (unlikely as it would have happened by now I'd guess).
2- Something which they object to and are uncomfortable with. IOW not something which should be implemented on a forum supposedly designed and run for INTPs to feel comfortable in.

The whole premise behind the move is wrong and you are quite correct in pointing out that there's very little INTPish about it. In fact the only time I've seen such gross sweeping judgements and persecution it has been the result of a lack of insight, lack of intelligence or a lack of the ability to deal with the unstructured. I see no note of introversion, nor intuition, nor thinking and most certainly no perceptive style behaviour behind it.

I'd reckon that with proper INTP management without such pushign and shoving, it would need no guidance from the majority. After all intuitives are pattern focused creatures and should be capable of picking out those who fall into the category of "we don't want this". It may however be procrastinated over first :)

[Stoned_Rider]

The Baath and Nazi party examples put forth by omnirook are ridiculous. The Baath party was set up in a country that was supposedly for ALL Iraqis. The people of Iraq did not have anywhere else to go, they did not have a choice, they were being harassed, persecuted, and discriminated against in their own home. Similarly with the Nazis. Now why the hell would a non-INTP (who is fully aware of their non-INTPness) feel compelled to masquerade as an INTP, when they have the whole freaking internet with plenty of other places they can freely go to? Are you seriously going to call them victims of oppression? Are you out of your freaking mind? Hustler would call them "leeches". I agree with him there.

Now, let's say that an INTP-dominated political party comes into power in some state. If they then seek to forge a national unity based upon typist attributes, THAT would be fascism... not to mention the fact that it would go against everything INTPness stands for.

The same can be applied to internet fora. If, say, a general MBTI forum happens to be run by a madministration consisting of mostly INTPs, and they make biased decisions based on typist attributes, then I would also call that fascism. By the way, do we even see that happening here? I can't recall any instance where the INTPc madministration took sides with an INTP against a non-INTP, for no other reason than that he/she self-identifies as INTP. So where's the fascism now? If anything, we totally SUCK at it.

I am not calling for non-INTP eradication at all (even though, on an INTP forum, I am fully entitled to. Just as Hustler is.), I've already stated my view on this here (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?p=605748#post605748)... but I'm just pointing out that you guys are being even more unreasonable and irrational than Hustler supposedly is. Fascism? INTP Nationalism? For real? Gimme a break. :sobs:

[Xander]

As I recall the origional concept for this site was more based on a place for INTPs to hang out AND for those who wish to learn about INTPs (spouses etc). A place for AND about INTPs to improve both the lives of INTPs (by providing a place which is RUN by them and as such is better suited for their preferances) and also by spreading a little understanding of what and who we are both to people who've just found out that their INTPs and to those who interact with us, presumably with the hope of enlightening them and making them more aware and curtious towards us as INTPs.

That kind of concept is a noble one. The concept of having a forum designed to protect us poor wall flowers from the meanie other types who rule our lives is frankly insulting.

[Rajah]

Point them out for me in greater specification and I will, ese.I'm not digging up the threads. Look under Feedback. Pay attention to posts by Xander where he insinuates it's our responsibility as INTPs to read his mind (again), then accuses you of not being an INTP when you can't, which is all apparently irrelevant because he's just going to ignore what you say and raise the same complaint/argument in this thread. Then read the responses to those posts, because they might undercut some of the group mentality you seem to think's an issue.

[omnirook]

The Baath and Nazi party examples put forth by omnirook are ridiculous. The Baath party was set up in a country that was supposedly for ALL Iraqis. The people of Iraq did not have anywhere else to go, they did not have a choice, they were being harassed, persecuted, and discriminated against in their own home. Similarly with the Nazis. Now why the hell would a non-INTP (who is fully aware of their non-INTPness) feel compelled to masquerade as an INTP, when they have the whole freaking internet with plenty of other places they can freely go to? Are you seriously going to call them victims of oppression? Are you out of your freaking mind? Hustler would call them "leeches". I agree with him there.

Now, let's say that an INTP-dominated political party comes into power in some state. If they then seek to forge a national unity based upon typist attributes, THAT would be fascism... not to mention the fact that it would go against everything INTPness stands for.

The same can be applied to internet fora. If, say, a general MBTI forum happens to be run by a madministration consisting of mostly INTPs, and they make biased decisions based on typist attributes, then I would also call that fascism. By the way, do we even see that happening here? I can't recall any instance where the INTPc madministration took sides with an INTP against a non-INTP, for no other reason than that he/she self-identifies as INTP. So where's the fascism now? If anything, we totally SUCK at it.

I am not calling for non-INTP eradication at all (even though, on an INTP forum, I am fully entitled to. Just as Hustler is.), I've already stated my view on this here (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?p=605748#post605748)... but I'm just pointing out that you guys are being even more unreasonable and irrational than Hustler supposedly is. Fascism? INTP Nationalism? For real? Gimme a break. :sobs:

Don't give me that shit - it's the same fucking blighted mentality! How about calling the non-INTP section a "Vomitorium" and calling the non-INTP types "inferior?" People were able to see why "nappy headed ho's" caused offense - why can't people see that these things would cause offense? And the Forum is a virtual community - just as NAZI Germany and Baathist Iraq were real world communities. A community that doesn't tolerate diversity is a community that should not be tolerated. Both given examples had ideals of purity, whether racial or religious - what's so different about using psychological types as a standard? I don't support such ideals and standards.

If this Forum is so puny and insignificant to you, why do you bother to come here? I like this place, come here daily, and I am not ashamed to admit that I care more about this Forum than about a lot of other things - so forgive me if I react strongly when I see the quality of the place threatened by meanspirited assholery!

[NoahFence]

I don't understand why I should give a shit when someone posts meaningless drivel.

I don't understand why I should give a shit when someone gets offended that people don't take their word as gospel.

I don't understand why I should give a shit that someone reveals themselves to be an opinionated blowhard.

I don't understand why I should give a shit that not everybody takes electrohydrodynamics so fucking seriously that they can't crack a joke in your precious, precious thread.

Am I the only INTP here who thinks this whole dramatic explosion of verbal diarrhea is a bunch of pathetic whiney bullshit?!? BOTH sides of this argument have their heads up their ass. But guess what! They, and by "they" I mean the most vehement of both sides who have devoted hours of their life to making INTPCentral perfect for THEM, aren't ruining my enjoyment of INTPCentral, because I have the AMAZING ability to skip posts that don't interest me, or that are posted by people who seem to always say the same shit.

My vote for the INTP vs. Non-INTP issue is to gather everyone who refuses to playfully post a three sentence story in the thread of the same name and drop them off a fucking cliff. I guess I just formed my own faction. Damnit.

THIS FORUM IS FINE.

[TheSuspect]

To kick out non-INTPs would be bad. Think of how many familiar and liked personalities that would go away. It would be terrible to do it, things would probably get kind of boring if there were no undercurrents of other types.

And I like the comparison between fascism and kicking non-INTPs out ^^ :grin:

[C.J.Woolf]

Noah, I wish more members were like you. And me.

Or, I should say, me before modhood. Being a mod makes me feel obligated to give a shit on behalf of those who are bothered by drivel or whatever. I confess I don't do a very good job representing the latter group. But I do a great job representing you!


P.S. Thanks for the plug of the Three Sentence Story thread. I'm loving it.

[demagogic_schizoid]

INTP's would be susceptible to fascism - anyone is susceptible to being won over by someone who tells them that they are better than others, that they are under threat from those they are better than, and that they must place their trust in a strong leader who cares for their well-being and can put them in their rightful place. INTP's might like their fascism to have a little more logical consistency and intellectual veneer. However, there's nothing particularly un-INTP about fascism itself, just mainstream fascism which, by its very definition, tailors to mainstream society, which is largley non-INTP. In conclusion, INTP and Fascist are not mutually exclusive, in fact many INTP's would probably make very good technocrats in a fascist state due to their planning ability and detachment.

[hereandnow]

It's a forum. The front door say's INTP Central. Others being here isn't a right, it's a privelege. Abuse the privelege and take a hike.

Is it really difficult?

[demagogic_schizoid]

It's a forum. The front door say's INTP Central. Others being here isn't a right, it's a privelege. Abuse the privelege and take a hike.

Is it really difficult?

I agree with this on principle. But in reality, I think a small number of people are using that logic as a pre-text to silence people they don't like. There will probably be a lot of INTP's driven out if this new aggressive atmosphere takes hold, and probably a relatively high number of non-INTP's will be part of the inner clique trying to run the forum. I agree that it's only a forum, but it's still annoying to see such dishonesty and hypocrisy, even if in the big scheme of things it doesn't really matter.

I don't think the issue here is really about INTP vs non-INTP, it's about one clique of people who aren't even all INTP's wanting to make the forum their own, and hiding behind forum rules when it suits them. Because they are the enlightened elite, this is justified, because the ends justify the means for such intellectualy superior people, and as they can see the "bigger picture", they really couldn't give a shit about the nobodies they crush under the wheels of their advancement to creating a better forum, a cyber-utopia. One by one, they'll pick off the people they don't like, usually waiting until they commit some relatively minor infringement no worse than the ones committed by the inner clique in order to provoke them, or until public opinion can be manipulated into voting them out. It is like a playground for mini-fascists (or commies, same thing) to play out their fantasies which they are not good enough to acheive in real life. It's actually pretty funny, but it's a shame, because it does ruin what would otherwise be a genuinely good forum.

[hereandnow]

I don't think the issue here is really about INTP vs non-INTP, it's about one clique of people who aren't even all INTP's wanting to make the forum their own, and hiding behind forum rules when it suits them. Because they are the enlightened elite, this is justified, because the ends justify the means for such intellectualy superior people, and as they can see the "bigger picture", they really couldn't give a shit about the nobodies they crush under the wheels of their advancement to creating a better forum, a cyber-utopia. One by one, they'll pick off the people they don't like, usually waiting until they commit some relatively minor infringement no worse than the ones committed by the inner clique in order to provoke them, or until public opinion can be manipulated into voting them out. It is like a playground for mini-fascists (or commies, same thing) to play out their fantasies which they are not good enough to acheive in real life. It's actually pretty funny, but it's a shame, because it does ruin what would otherwise be a genuinely good forum.

You didn't include a smilie so it's possible you believe what you wrote.

There's no indication from anyone there will be wholesale banning. The admins have explained it very well. Hustler made his comments and stands by them. Others, including Rajah and Kuranes have also commented on the situation. In the end the betterment of the board is the goal but in order to move things forward some "shaking up" is often beneficial.

It's much ado about very little.

[demagogic_schizoid]

You didn't include a smilie so it's possible you believe what you wrote.

There's no indication from anyone there will be wholesale banning. The admins have explained it very well. Hustler made his comments and stands by them. Others, including Rajah and Kuranes have also commented on the situation. In the end the betterment of the board is the goal but in order to move things forward some "shaking up" is often beneficial.

It's much ado about very little.

It may well not happen, but I don't doubt for a second that there are people who have those intentions and will try to implement then whenever they can. They might not get all they want, but they'll still try to exercise as much power as they can over other people. See the thread "INTP Death-List". INTP Central's very own Elena Ceausescu wannabe tried to get me banned purely out of personal dislike, in an atmosphere of "Death Lists" directly resulting from the anti-non-intp furore. Even though I'm an INTP. That's the kind of atmosphere these people revel in, and in their own self-importance they really think they have the right to just drive out people they don't like. I don't know if this is actually sophisticated enough to qualify as fascism, but it's something not too far removed. If you can't see it then fair enough, but I know for a fact that I'm not the only one with this view and who doesn't for a second trust the people who claim to be building a "better" forum.

[Ivy]

d_s, if it were all about "picking off people [we] don't like," there would be a lot more banning going on. ;) I do sort of resent the implication that the management here is off on a hill somewhere going "And I don't like YOU, so you're banned! Tada!" This IS just a forum, so it wouldn't be the end of the world if that WERE the case, but I wouldn't want to be involved if it were.

Edit: come ON.

[Zergling]

it's about one clique of people who aren't even all INTP's wanting to make the forum their own, and hiding behind forum rules when it suits them.

This is what my issue is also. The intp vs. non-itnp just seems to be one result of this. And although I have plenty to do otherwise if INTP central suddenly doesn't exist or isn't accessible, it would be a loss it the forum got worse or fell apart, and it is a problem anywhere when some group of people starts to clique up and cause problems.

[meshou]

I thought mods already had absolute power...?

It's not a democracy. At best, it's a non-representative republic.

[hereandnow]

If you can't see it then fair enough, but I know for a fact that I'm not the only one with this view and who doesn't for a second trust the people who claim to be building a "better" forum.

Actually it's very clear to me. The ant hill was knocked over to see the response. There are no Romanian dictators running around. Could it have been handled better? Perhaps, but everyone had a chance to speak up.

The comparisons between INTP Central and violent dictators is a stretch. Anyone can leave at anytime and you are still posting. So is everyone else save for a few trolls.

Much ado about very little.

[Ivy]

Exactly.

Did you happen to notice the little sunglasses smiley face beside Madrigal's "INTP Death List" thread? That is a pretty good indication it was tongue-in-cheek. Even if it was kidding on the square, it is not tantamount to a serious policy request. If such a thing as a "serious policy request" exists in this format. I can't even believe I have to explain this to INTPs.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Actually it's very clear to me. The ant hill was knocked over to see the response. There are no Romanian dictators running around. Could it have been handled better? Perhaps, but everyone had a chance to speak up.

The comparisons between INTP Central and violent dictators is a stretch. Anyone can leave at anytime and you are still posting. So is everyone else save for a few trolls.

Much ado about very little.

I agree that it's only a forum and not that important, but still, that's not a good reason not to point something out. If we're going to talk about the forum, then we might as well pretend it's important, otherwise why bother having the conversation in the first place? When I compare someone to a dictator, it's a comment on their psychology, not a comparison between myself and someone in the situation of living under a dictator. I accept that such a comparison would be hysterical.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Exactly.

Did you happen to notice the little sunglasses smiley face beside Madrigal's "INTP Death List" thread? That is a pretty good indication it was tongue-in-cheek. Even if it was kidding on the square, it is not tantamount to a serious policy request. If such a thing as a "serious policy request" exists in this format. I can't even believe I have to explain this to INTPs.

sunglasses does not equal tongue-in-cheek. If I post a Death List with sunglasses, to my interpretation that means, "I'm gonna waste these fuckers, and look cool while I do it". It doesn't imply being jocular or well-meaning.

[Rajah]

I agree with this on principle. But in reality, I think a small number of people are using that logic as a pre-text to silence people they don't like. There will probably be a lot of INTP's driven out if this new aggressive atmosphere takes hold, and probably a relatively high number of non-INTP's will be part of the inner clique trying to run the forum. I agree that it's only a forum, but it's still annoying to see such dishonesty and hypocrisy, even if in the big scheme of things it doesn't really matter.

I don't think the issue here is really about INTP vs non-INTP, it's about one clique of people who aren't even all INTP's wanting to make the forum their own, and hiding behind forum rules when it suits them. Because they are the enlightened elite, this is justified, because the ends justify the means for such intellectualy superior people, and as they can see the "bigger picture", they really couldn't give a shit about the nobodies they crush under the wheels of their advancement to creating a better forum, a cyber-utopia. One by one, they'll pick off the people they don't like, usually waiting until they commit some relatively minor infringement no worse than the ones committed by the inner clique in order to provoke them, or until public opinion can be manipulated into voting them out. It is like a playground for mini-fascists (or commies, same thing) to play out their fantasies which they are not good enough to acheive in real life. It's actually pretty funny, but it's a shame, because it does ruin what would otherwise be a genuinely good forum.D_S, I'll be blunt. You're paranoid.

As for banning people we don't like? Go check out the Banned and the Damned thread. Not like we're racking up a big casualty list. Plus, we inform you of every banning (save obvious spammers, as indicated in that thread description) and purgatorization. You're even invited to make a thread inquiring about why the banning occurred.

You're taking one person's thread and ascribing the sentiments to everyone. Unfairly. Even though we've addressed this particular point multiple times over the past few days. If you don't like our explanation, then too bad. There's nothing more we can give you, and I'm frankly tired of talking about it.

Have a nice day,
Rajah

[NoahFence]

The only people who hate cliques are those who are forever unable to join them and are pissed because they wish they could.

"They"

"These people"

"The cliques"

You are trying to catch farts in a net.

I swear, every time I see someone railing about cliques, on every forum I've ever been on, gaming, Battlebots discussion, Movie Poop Chute, you name it, it's because they blew up at some sleight against them and others jumped in to tell them to stuff it. I mean, it couldn't possibly be that many people really came to their own independant conclusion that you're a jerk...after all, YOU know you're not, and you're not wrong about these things, EVER...it must be a CONSPIRACY!

Oh wait...I forgot, I'm married to a mod...obviously I'm just a pawn of the establishment, and my provocative propaganda will find no chinks in the armor of your Big Picture.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go browse the secret, hidden "Who we will exclude next" thread.

[demagogic_schizoid]

D_S, I'll be blunt. You're paranoid.

As for banning people we don't like? Go check out the Banned and the Damned thread. Not like we're racking up a big casualty list. Plus, we inform you of every banning (save obvious spammers, as indicated in that thread description) and purgatorization. You're even invited to make a thread inquiring about why the banning occurred.

You're taking one person's thread and ascribing the sentiments to everyone. Unfairly. Even though we've addressed this particular point multiple times over the past few days. If you don't like our explanation, then too bad. There's nothing more we can give you, and I'm frankly tired of talking about it.

Have a nice day,
Rajah

I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote the post.

[paulwhy]

Administartion of an INTP specific venture always going to be a nightmare. From Butt?s INTP Profile:
?INTPs in the main are not clannish. The INTP mailing list, with a readership now in triple figures, was in its incipience fraught with all the difficulties of the Panama canal: we had trouble deciding on:
1) whether or not there should be such a group,
2) exactly what such a group should be called, and
3) which of us would have to take the responsibility for organization and maintenance of the aforesaid group/club/whatever.?


So we need to assess the reality of INTPc administration against an expectation that it is going to be pretty rough.


. If anything, these "INTP nationals", if they could even be called INTPs at all, give our traditionally humble type a sour name. .

Are INTPs humble?
Yes and no.
From Paul James:
?This is his Mission; to be the provider of clarity, and is often suspicious that he is the only person capable of this task. Here, the INTP risks being seen as over-critical, aloof and arrogant. On the whole, however, real arrogance is rare for INTPs for their desire is not to dominate others but simply to observe, analyse and clarify?
Thinking you are the only person able to do something is kind of arrogant. Hence there is a very non-humble aspect.


.This is an INTP forum. The majority here are INTPs. When did our tolerance devolve into a sad state of piety? If my guess is correct I'd say for most of you it hasn't.

Sure INTPs are tolerant but:
? INTPs are relatively easy-going and amenable to most anything until their principles are violated, about which they may become outspoken and inflexible. They prefer to return, however, to a reserved albeit benign ambiance, not wishing to make spectacles of themselves.? (Butt)

And they are born critics:
?Errors made by others are to be expected and can be criticised? (Paul James)
And note this can easily develop into cynicism.


.So then, why shouldn't our administrative motto be one of non-interference? Ask yourself if this is how an INTP would truly run things, if they would "run things" at all.
Ah the ideal of freedom!
As an Economist reading, liberal (In the British not American sense) with a training in Economics, I know a little about freedom. I believe in freedom both economically and socially. i.e. small government in both areas.

But freedom has it limits. My freedom to build a nuclear power station in my back garden conflicts with your freedom not to be killed by a nuclear explosion (because I do not get the design quite right) or to be killed by terrorists using a dirty bomb.

This is obviously a simple example to resolve. No one is going to let an individual just build a nuclear power station (even if I do have a high school diploma in physics and say I will keep a $5 lock on the garden shed storing the nuclear materials). But in reality the questions are less clear cut.
What about if a put a big Tree in the garden and it cuts down your hours of daylight?
What about a small tree?
What about a big shrub?
Or a small shrub?
Or a big plant?
Or a small plant?
Or a blade of grass?

Some one has to decide where in that list the cut off is.

That example was in the real world (don?t tell me: you knew that already) but same freedom stuff applies online. i.e. not want INTPc users to post porn or links to $1 Xbox. That kind of junk would get in the way. Some body has to judge wether posts and posters are constructive or destructive.

Finally some outsides might be surprised by level of non-interference. 3 people banned and 2 sent to purgatory since 31/3/07. http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?p=599949

[meshou]

I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote the post.I bet she was thinking of you, though.

[Avengardh]

I think most of you who lost it in this thread basically proved Merk's point.

But honestly, the ones who care won't even bother with stating their opinion.

:D

[C.J.Woolf]

Did you happen to notice the little sunglasses smiley face beside Madrigal's "INTP Death List" thread? That is a pretty good indication it was tongue-in-cheek. Even if it was kidding on the square, it is not tantamount to a serious policy request. If such a thing as a "serious policy request" exists in this format. I can't even believe I have to explain this to INTPs.
That's why you're an honorary INTP: you get it, more than some INTPs do.


I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote the post.
Who, then? Madrigal? She isn't a madmin, she just called you out.

[demagogic_schizoid]

That's why you're an honorary INTP: you get it, more than some INTPs do.


Who, then? Madrigal? She isn't a madmin, she just called you out.

I wasn't thinking of you either. Some people will read that original reply to hearand now, and know I'm talking about them. It's as simple as that.

[digesthisickness]

The only people who hate cliques are those who are forever unable to join them and are pissed because they wish they could.

"They"

"These people"

"The cliques"

You are trying to catch farts in a net.

I swear, every time I see someone railing about cliques, on every forum I've ever been on, gaming, Battlebots discussion, Movie Poop Chute, you name it, it's because they blew up at some sleight against them and others jumped in to tell them to stuff it. I mean, it couldn't possibly be that many people really came to their own independant conclusion that you're a jerk...after all, YOU know you're not, and you're not wrong about these things, EVER...it must be a CONSPIRACY!

Oh wait...I forgot, I'm married to a mod...obviously I'm just a pawn of the establishment, and my provocative propaganda will find no chinks in the armor of your Big Picture.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go browse the secret, hidden "Who we will exclude next" thread.

ivy, hug this man for me.

[NoahFence]

I wasn't thinking of you either. Some people will read that original reply to hearand now, and know I'm talking about them. It's as simple as that.

Ahh yes, "them". "those people" in "the cliques". You sure gave "them" what for. :banghead:

[NoahFence]

ivy, hug this man for me.

:hug:

[hereandnow]

When I compare someone to a dictator, it's a comment on their psychology...

My fondness for some of your posts aside, you'd appreciate it if members compared your psychology to that of someone who's paranoid?

If you look at the various threads, read the responses, and note people are continuing to post it becomes apparent no wholesale banning is taking place.

It's very simple; the emotional investment will appear ludicrous once it all shakes out.

[MasterMerk]

I don't understand why I should give a shit when someone posts meaningless drivel.

I don't understand why I should give a shit when someone gets offended that people don't take their word as gospel.

I don't understand why I should give a shit that someone reveals themselves to be an opinionated blowhard.

I don't understand why I should give a shit that not everybody takes electrohydrodynamics so fucking seriously that they can't crack a joke in your precious, precious thread.

Am I the only INTP here who thinks this whole dramatic explosion of verbal diarrhea is a bunch of pathetic whiney bullshit?!? BOTH sides of this argument have their heads up their ass. But guess what! They, and by "they" I mean the most vehement of both sides who have devoted hours of their life to making INTPCentral perfect for THEM, aren't ruining my enjoyment of INTPCentral, because I have the AMAZING ability to skip posts that don't interest me, or that are posted by people who seem to always say the same shit.

My vote for the INTP vs. Non-INTP issue is to gather everyone who refuses to playfully post a three sentence story in the thread of the same name and drop them off a fucking cliff. I guess I just formed my own faction. Damnit.

THIS FORUM IS FINE.

I see no absolutely no contradictions with your line of thinking and mine, Noah.

[Zergling]

The only people who hate cliques are those who are forever unable to join them and are pissed because they wish they could.


The reason for this is moire likely "I'm in a clique, and enjoy it, so won't worry about problems it causes", than that people not in cliques are all a bunch of assholes. (The people outside and inside cliques seem about the same on average in terms of friendliness and brains, some just get lucky, or smell right, or happen to know each other for awhile, etc., and they end up in the cliques.)

[Stoned_Rider]

Don't give me that shit - it's the same fucking blighted mentality! How about calling the non-INTP section a "Vomitorium" and calling the non-INTP types "inferior?" People were able to see why "nappy headed ho's" caused offense - why can't people see that these things would cause offense? And the Forum is a virtual community - just as NAZI Germany and Baathist Iraq were real world communities. A community that doesn't tolerate diversity is a community that should not be tolerated. Both given examples had ideals of purity, whether racial or religious - what's so different about using psychological types as a standard? I don't support such ideals and standards.
:dont:

1. Iraq is a country for all Iraqis. Baathist Iraq turned Iraq into a country for only Baathist Iraqis, forcing the rest of the Iraqis to either seek asylum elsewhere or face murder, torture, and rape. INTPc was never a place for all MBTI types. It is not MBTIcentral.

2. This is not about ideals of purity. This is not about tolerating diversity. Far from it. Your argument would only have merit if an INTP-dominated administration sought to get rid of non-INTPs in a general MBTI forum.

Simple enough? Can't you see how your analogy is fundamentally flawed? I would like to stress again that I don't want non-INTPs out. I'm only arguing that I am fully entitled to call for restriction and/or banning of non-INTPs from INTPc, and that there would be absolutely nothing fascist or intolerant about it. Of course, whether or not such a move would be beneficial for INTPc is up for debate.

On that note, I find it interesting that no one has countered Hustler's point about social networks like MENSA. Are they also fascists? According to your logic, they most definitely are.


If this Forum is so puny and insignificant to you, why do you bother to come here?
:wtf: When did I say that?


I like this place, come here daily, and I am not ashamed to admit that I care more about this Forum than about a lot of other things - so forgive me if I react strongly when I see the quality of the place threatened by meanspirited assholery!
You are welcome encouraged to point out why you think restricting/banning non-INTPs would bring down the quality of INTPc. I'm just saying that your current argument sucks. Thank you, and please try again :gm:

[cjs55]

A community that doesn't tolerate diversity is a community that should not be tolerated.

How does your head not explode from the hypocricy? How can people, apparent INTPs, nonetheless, actually use this argument with a straight face?

You yourself are proposing to limit the diversity of the forum by drowning out a fairly large minority viewpoint. You want to be surrounded by people who feel the exact way you do, and will not tolerate anything else. You are the same (if not worse, as you seem to be more totalitarian about it) as what you hate. Move along.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Ahh yes, "them". "those people" in "the cliques". You sure gave "them" what for. :banghead:

I knew I'd have to endure this kind of amateur psychology the moment I made that post. It's the price a person pays for trying to make a nuanced point, I suppose.

Look, you saw the word "clique", and jumped in with your pre-prepared speech about paranoid clique haters. Very nice, but it doesn't relate to my post. I don't want to eradicate cliques, people will form groups all the time, in any context, no-one can reasonably have a problem with that. However, my post was not about "cliques", I simply used the word, for want of a better one, to describe a very specific group of people doing some very specific things. So I don't accept your criticism.

[omnirook]

:dont:

1. Iraq is a country for all Iraqis. Baathist Iraq turned Iraq into a country for only Baathist Iraqis, forcing the rest of the Iraqis to either seek asylum elsewhere or face murder, torture, and rape. INTPc was never a place for all MBTI types. It is not MBTIcentral.

Then it should never have allowed non-INTP's to join in the first place - but it did. Once you have granted a right, you cannot justly take it back - see Machiavelli.

Also, as I pointed out, there's no objective way to determine what type a person is. A good psychologist gives the MBTI test several times, using different questions, and also spends a fair amount of time interviewing the subject. Even then, there's a great deal of room for error, expecially w/introverts, who are not easy to draw out in questioning. Determining MBTI type is not simply a matter of having someone answer the questions in one on-line test, which, I am sure, is how most people here "determined" their type. Anyone joining could claim to be an INTP. What, we're then to rely on having accusations and even slurs of not being an INTP as our standard?


2. This is not about ideals of purity. This is not about tolerating diversity. Far from it. Your argument would only have merit if an INTP-dominated administration sought to get rid of non-INTPs in a general MBTI forum.

Simple enough? Can't you see how your analogy is fundamentally flawed?

No - I don't see that. Were that the case, no one would have decided to get cute and call the non-INTP subforum a "vomitorium" for "inferior types" - and, if that is meant to be humorous, just Google up Imus, and realize that people would indeed be offended by such humor. I'm an INTP (and, yes, I was tested professionally!), and I found it offensive ... Supposedly, there is a Forum rule against flaming - what do you call insulting whole groups of people - or making the basis for why you will not show respect and courtesy to somebody your own "diagnosis" that he/she is not really an INTP? Believe it or not, in so doing, you're also implying that the person is a liar - unless you go out of your way to present your credentials and make out a scientifically acceptable case why you, as a qualified professional, feel that a person's test results were interpreted incorrectly.


... I would like to stress again that I don't want non-INTPs out. I'm only arguing that I am fully entitled to call for restriction and/or banning of non-INTPs from INTPc, and that there would be absolutely nothing fascist or intolerant about it. Of course, whether or not such a move would be beneficial for INTPc is up for debate.

On that note, I find it interesting that no one has countered Hustler's point about social networks like MENSA. Are they also fascists? According to your logic, they most definitely are.

I've been treated to the company of MENSA members several times. It was suggested that I join after my IQ was taken. No thanks. But, hey - you want to belong to a pack of narrow-minded, pretentious assholes, who make looking down on people who perhaps simply do not test well a virtue, go right ahead. That group is, has been, and presumably will remain restricted to people who meet its standards, even if they are gracious enough to allow "dummies" to audit their meetings. As I said above, non-INTP's have been allowed to join INTP Central.




:wtf: When did I say that?

Oh, come on - you implied it - said something along the lines that getting so bent out of shape when it comes to something like an online forum was ridiculous.



You are welcome encouraged to point out why you think restricting/banning non-INTPs would bring down the quality of INTPc. I'm just saying that your current argument sucks. Thank you, and please try again :gm:

Says you! You ought to know by now that an INTP trait is inflexibility when a value has been challenged. Go ahead - try to get me to shut up by sticking me w/such a small pin as ridicule. As the time I got banned proved - shame is uttlerly useless against me. I have no shame. None.

It's about time that some of the INTP's here realized that INTP-ness has multiple facets. We're not all the same. "INTP" is a generalization, not a specification. When you spend a quarter of a century living w/another introverted type and a quarter of a century w/your best friend being an extroverted type - you change, like it or not, believe it or not.

My introverted mate is quiet, orderly, punctual, responsible, sticks to a routine, is tidy, methodical, and pays a great deal of attention to forms and formalities.

My extroverted best friend is loud, pushy (w/good intentions), gregarious, talkative, focuses on the big picture, can function only in a whirlwind, despises being alone for a minute, and can be on time only under threat of dire doom.

I've spent 25 years in close proximity to the 2 of them - some of them has rubbed off on me!

[omnirook]

How does your head not explode from the hypocricy? How can people, apparent INTPs, nonetheless, actually use this argument with a straight face?

You yourself are proposing to limit the diversity of the forum by drowning out a fairly large minority viewpoint. You want to be surrounded by people who feel the exact way you do, and will not tolerate anything else. You are the same (if not worse, as you seem to be more totalitarian about it) as what you hate. Move along.

Bullshit! I've not once in my time here suggested that anyone be banned or even be placed in Purgatory for voicing opinions that I disagreed with. I am not suggesting it now. I will sit still for whatever anyone has to say - much more willingly than most members here. Sitting still does NOT mean keeping quet! I despise religion w/a passion - yet let anyone suggest that any religion be banned: I'd be the first one on the picket line to protest. When I was 11, I took Voltaire to heart: "I may not agree w/what you say, but I will defend until the death your right to say it." But that doesn't mean that I am going to let you say w/o your paying the price of hearing my response!

[NoahFence]

I knew I'd have to endure this kind of amateur psychology the moment I made that post. It's the price a person pays for trying to make a nuanced point, I suppose.

Look, you saw the word "clique", and jumped in with your pre-prepared speech about paranoid clique haters. Very nice, but it doesn't relate to my post. I don't want to eradicate cliques, people will form groups all the time, in any context, no-one can reasonably have a problem with that. However, my post was not about "cliques", I simply used the word, for want of a better one, to describe a very specific group of people doing some very specific things. So I don't accept your criticism.

Who is it who has been banned that you think should not have been? Prolific? Perhaps you disagree with Rainfall's exile to purgatory? Just what exactly are you defending? Their right to annoy the entire forum?

You keep preaching doom and gloom and shadowy figures pulling strings behind the scenes to effect a takeover and eliminate their opposition. For the life of me, I cannot see the pattern that has you so upset.

It seems to me that if you were all that good at nuance, you'd understand that Hustler's talk of banning non-INTP's was just his way of saying "I wish people would post more meaningful content". I don't think anyone, including him, entertained the notion as serious at all.

Except maybe you.

[hereandnow]

you'd understand that Hustler's talk of banning non-INTP's was just his way of saying "I wish people would post more meaningful content". I don't think anyone, including him, entertained the notion as serious at all.



Thus my comment that the emotional investment will look silly in the coming weeks and months.

[NoahFence]

Thus my comment that the emotional investment will look silly in the coming weeks and months.

Ayep.

[SolitaryWalker]

Wait, we're starting the INTP Central nation? A state? I thought we were just a marginally-selective social network on the internet. Just curious, but if establishing a social network that is predicated on qualities associated with a personality type is fascist, would MENSA, which restricts its entries based on performance on an IQ test, also be considered a fascist entity?

Anyway, the arguments in this thread are both absurd and, in essence, pure hyperbole.

Error: Any particular type in theory can have an IQ high enough for entry. Especially any particular N type. So if this was the case it is not likely that we would see all INTPs on board, it would be a mixture of INTPs, INTJs, ENTPs and maybe then even INFJs, ENTJs and INFPs....

You're not an INTP anyways so this whole thing is beyond ridiculous.

[Ferrus]

You're not an INTP anyways so this whole thing is beyond ridiculous.
Ah, the I'm more INTP than thou game is wonderful. It all seems rather like SJs fighting over who was more patriotic and who was more religious.

[SolitaryWalker]

Ah, the I'm more INTP than thou game is wonderful. It all seems rather like SJs fighting over who was more patriotic and who was more religious.

Yeah, I agree that this whole fight about who is an INTP and who is not and how those who are not should beat it is pathetic and SJish as you said. It definitely sticks to a very collectivist mindset. SJs are a lot like that as Keirsey would suggest to us that they exist for the sake of being useful to the unit that they belong to. And now lets remember that what Keirsey said is not rule of thumb, whatever he says is just as good as what anybody opines on this board, he is not an authority as SJs would have him, but yet another discussion participant just like any one of us here.

[Hustler]

Error: Any particular type in theory can have an IQ high enough for entry. Especially any particular N type. So if this was the case it is not likely that we would see all INTPs on board, it would be a mixture of INTPs, INTJs, ENTPs and maybe then even INFJs, ENTJs and INFPs....

Error: You can't understand what an analogy is. There is no mixture of IQ types let into MENSA. They all have 135 or higher, or its equivalent from some other test. Nobody with a 115 or its equivalent from another test is getting in. They hedge out other types and, furthermore, brook no argument about whether they ought to accept dumber people. According to the arguments made in the original post of this thread, that makes MENSA a fascist organization for the same reasons it would make INTPc a fascist forum, and more so because of the rigidity of their stance. Note that IQ is just another personality metric, just like MBTI is. The real error here is that the original poster misapplied the term fascism to this site.

[Stoned_Rider]

Then it should never have allowed non-INTP's to join in the first place - but it did. Once you have granted a right, you cannot justly take it back - see Machiavelli.
What if (hypothetically) it is proven beyond doubt that the restriction/banning of non-INTPs will definitely make INTPc a better place? Wouldn't that trump anything else?

Another hypothetical scenario: What if non-INTPs become the majority here? Think about the implications of this. Non-INTPcentral, anyone?

My point: forum policies can change. We observe what's happening and we adjust accordingly. This is the P way. Now I'm still a relative newcomer here and I'm not exactly sure what things were like back in 2004, but I trust that the administration were doing whatever they believed was best for INTPc at the time. If, 3 years later, it is agreed upon that the policies in place no longer suit the forum's current volume, activity, overall quality, member-base, etc.. then by all means, they must be changed.


Also, as I pointed out, there's no objective way to determine what type a person is. A good psychologist gives the MBTI test several times, using different questions, and also spends a fair amount of time interviewing the subject. Even then, there's a great deal of room for error, expecially w/introverts, who are not easy to draw out in questioning. Determining MBTI type is not simply a matter of having someone answer the questions in one on-line test, which, I am sure, is how most people here "determined" their type. Anyone joining could claim to be an INTP. What, we're then to rely on having accusations and even slurs of not being an INTP as our standard?
Valid point, no doubt about that. I see INTPc more of a place for people who self-identify as INTPs, who want to explore their (probable) INTPness, in order to come out with a better understanding of who they are (and perhaps even decide for themselves if they really are INTPs or not). I only took the online test myself, I instantly identified with the INTP profile despite my inner skeptic yelling "Forer Effect! Forer Effect dammit!" all the time... I decided to join INTPc and felt at home straight away. This is probably the only forum where I have more than 300 posts, let alone 1600-something.

The INTPer than thou attitude of some members here annoys me as well. If someone self-identifies as an INTP, then let 'em. Some of them will eventually change their minds (FranG, phenol, meshou, etc..), others will try real hard to be INTP even if it's not natural to them (and hopefully one day they will come to that realization) and so on... At the end of the day, it's all about learning, self-discovery and personal growth (as cheesy as that sounds).


No - I don't see that. Were that the case, no one would have decided to get cute and call the non-INTP subforum a "vomitorium" for "inferior types" - and, if that is meant to be humorous, just Google up Imus, and realize that people would indeed be offended by such humor. I'm an INTP (and, yes, I was tested professionally!), and I found it offensive ... Supposedly, there is a Forum rule against flaming - what do you call insulting whole groups of people - or making the basis for why you will not show respect and courtesy to somebody your own "diagnosis" that he/she is not really an INTP? Believe it or not, in so doing, you're also implying that the person is a liar - unless you go out of your way to present your credentials and make out a scientifically acceptable case why you, as a qualified professional, feel that a person's test results were interpreted incorrectly.
You find it offensive - fair enough, I'm not going to argue about that. The fact remains that those non-INTPs who happen to be some of the best contributors to INTPc do not find it offensive or insulting at all. That's good enough for me.


I've been treated to the company of MENSA members several times. It was suggested that I join after my IQ was taken. No thanks. But, hey - you want to belong to a pack of narrow-minded, pretentious assholes, who make looking down on people who perhaps simply do not test well a virtue, go right ahead. That group is, has been, and presumably will remain restricted to people who meet its standards, even if they are gracious enough to allow "dummies" to audit their meetings. As I said above, non-INTP's have been allowed to join INTP Central.
They can be narrow-minded and pretentious all you want, you still haven't answered whether you'd consider them fascists.


Oh, come on - you implied it - said something along the lines that getting so bent out of shape when it comes to something like an online forum was ridiculous.
I don't think it was me who said that, but yeah it is an online forum. An online forum for INTPs and therefore it is important to me as it is for other INTPs as well.



Says you! You ought to know by now that an INTP trait is inflexibility when a value has been challenged. Go ahead - try to get me to shut up by sticking me w/such a small pin as ridicule. As the time I got banned proved - shame is uttlerly useless against me. I have no shame. None.
Pay attention dude! It's your argument that I'm ridiculing, not you.

[omnirook]

What if (hypothetically) it is proven beyond doubt that the restriction/banning of non-INTPs will definitely make INTPc a better place? Wouldn't that trump anything else?

Another hypothetical scenario: What if non-INTPs become the majority here? Think about the implications of this. Non-INTPcentral, anyone?

My point: forum policies can change. We observe what's happening and we adjust accordingly. This is the P way. Now I'm still a relative newcomer here and I'm not exactly sure what things were like back in 2004, but I trust that the administration were doing whatever they believed was best for INTPc at the time. If, 3 years later, it is agreed upon that the policies in place no longer suit the forum's current volume, activity, overall quality, member-base, etc.. then by all means, they must be changed.


A change in such policy would be a change in the "constitution" of INTP Central. Perhaps a valid case can be made out for such a change. Usually when such changes are made, rather than tossing out the people who are affected, those people are grandfathered in.

I doubt that INTP Central is in danger of being overwhelmed by non-INTP's. Quite a few of the non-INTP members have said that they have mates who are INTP. Their interest in INTP's is clear and easy to understand. For the others, I would have to see if their own type has a forum of its own and if that forum is worth bothering with ... It's interesting - the fear of being overwhelmed by "them" is a constant all over society, haunting just about everybody. It would not be the case here, but elsewhere such fear is usually tainted w/worries over having been particularly shitty towards "them" in the past, worrying about the repurcussions of revenge. That has been a constant fear that whites have about blacks in America.




Valid point, no doubt about that. I see INTPc more of a place for people who self-identify as INTPs, who want to explore their (probable) INTPness, in order to come out with a better understanding of who they are (and perhaps even decide for themselves if they really are INTPs or not). I only took the online test myself, I instantly identified with the INTP profile despite my inner skeptic yelling "Forer Effect! Forer Effect dammit!" all the time... I decided to join INTPc and felt at home straight away. This is probably the only forum where I have more than 300 posts, let alone 1600-something.

The INTPer than thou attitude of some members here annoys me as well. If someone self-identifies as an INTP, then let 'em. Some of them will eventually change their minds (FranG, phenol, meshou, etc..), others will try real hard to be INTP even if it's not natural to them (and hopefully one day they will come to that realization) and so on... At the end of the day, it's all about learning, self-discovery and personal growth (as cheesy as that sounds).


Fair enough.



You find it offensive - fair enough, I'm not going to argue about that. The fact remains that those non-INTPs who happen to be some of the best contributors to INTPc do not find it offensive or insulting at all. That's good enough for me.

I don't know about that. Let's just say that I've had some PM's. That's all I can say.



They can be narrow-minded and pretentious all you want, you still haven't answered whether you'd consider them fascists.


To me, w/elitism, there is always a danger of fascism, elitism's extreme form. Elitism can manifest as fairly benign, as it does in MENSA's case; it can even manifest as very benign, as it does in the cases of professional licensing, say for doctors and lawyers but others, as well, say plumbers and electricians, etc. Elitism begins to veer towards fascism as soon the reasons for it become less concrete, less objective - as would be the case at INTP Central ... No, I would not say that MENSA is a fascist organization - but, having been to their meetings, having dealt w/some of their members, I'd say that at least some of the membership could be classified as fascist in outlook.



I don't think it was me who said that, but yeah it is an online forum. An online forum for INTPs and therefore it is important to me as it is for other INTPs as well.


If you said no such thing, then I appologize for accusing you.



Pay attention dude! It's your argument that I'm ridiculing, not you.


Stay out of public relations! It's not the career for you. YOU pay attention - to people. You CAN'T criticize a person's argument w/o that person taking it personally. That's why you don't use words like "stupid" or "idiotic" or similar words when criticizing anyone - you have to KNOW that those are charged words and will not be taken as anything less than personal attacks. That's just the way that human beings, regardless of MBTI type, are.

[Stoned_Rider]

Usually when such changes are made, rather than tossing out the people who are affected, those people are grandfathered in.
Obviously, I'm not ruling that out. It could well turn out to be the most sensible solution, but it's the principle that I'm arguing about.


I doubt that INTP Central is in danger of being overwhelmed by non-INTP's. Quite a few of the non-INTP members have said that they have mates who are INTP. Their interest in INTP's is clear and easy to understand. For the others, I would have to see if their own type has a forum of its own and if that forum is worth bothering with ... It's interesting - the fear of being overwhelmed by "them" is a constant all over society, haunting just about everybody. It would not be the case here, but elsewhere such fear is usually tainted w/worries over having been particularly shitty towards "them" in the past, worrying about the repurcussions of revenge. That has been a constant fear that whites have about blacks in America.
Man.. and I thought I took extra precautions to make sure that even you, omnirook, wouldn't miss my point... but what do I know? :p

Seriously though, you're missing the whole point. I never implied there was any danger of that actually happening. I only gave that hypothetical scenario to illustrate my point - that forum policies can and will change according to what's determined as best for INTPc.



I don't know about that. Let's just say that I've had some PM's. That's all I can say.
Yeah I had a PM the other day.


To me, w/elitism, there is always a danger of fascism, elitism's extreme form. Elitism can manifest as fairly benign, as it does in MENSA's case; it can even manifest as very benign, as it does in the cases of professional licensing, say for doctors and lawyers but others, as well, say plumbers and electricians, etc. Elitism begins to veer towards fascism as soon the reasons for it become less concrete, less objective - as would be the case at INTP Central ... No, I would not say that MENSA is a fascist organization - but, having been to their meetings, having dealt w/some of their members, I'd say that at least some of the membership could be classified as fascist in outlook.
We can close the file on that one then :highfive:
I do understand your concerns (and thanks for the honest MENSA answer, finally!), but it's just really not what you think. I do not want nor expect favoured treatment based on my type. Not from society, not from the internet, not even from INTPc. Like I said before, I don't think there has been any instance where the administration took sides with an INTP over a non-INTP just because of type. Have some faith, man.


Stay out of public relations! It's not the career for you. YOU pay attention - to people. You CAN'T criticize a person's argument w/o that person taking it personally. That's why you don't use words like "stupid" or "idiotic" or similar words when criticizing anyone - you have to KNOW that those are charged words and will not be taken as anything less than personal attacks. That's just the way that human beings, regardless of MBTI type, are.
I have nothing against your person, but I know a sucky argument when I see one. Note that "sucks" is not quite the same as "stupid" or "idiotic".

[omnirook]

Obviously, I'm not ruling that out. It could well turn out to be the most sensible solution, but it's the principle that I'm arguing about.


Now you're not obviously ruling that out.




Man.. and I thought I took extra precautions to make sure that even you, omnirook, wouldn't miss my point... but what do I know? :p

Seriously though, you're missing the whole point. I never implied there was any danger of that actually happening. I only gave that hypothetical scenario to illustrate my point - that forum policies can and will change according to what's determined as best for INTPc.


Ah, well - examples have a way of being taken literally in the heat of debate, even if you go out of your way to say that your example is hypothetical. Why? Giving "hypothetical" examples is an old debating trick to introduce real concerns w/the added protection of making them more palatable to the other side.



I have nothing against your person, but I know a sucky argument when I see one. Note that "sucks" is not quite the same as "stupid" or "idiotic".


Who besides an idiot would make a sucky argument? ... Rather than argue, read Littgenstein's work on the importance of context to the interpretation of language. Example - You can't make a comment about the high-fat content of cream donuts to a fat man who is eating a cream donut w/o him taking your comment as critical of his eating the cream donut. Why? He knows that he is fat. He knows that other people believe that he should not be fat, see his being fat as a personal weakness, and he is unable to free himself from self-consciousness about being fat. Anything said about eating while he is eating will be taken as a veiled personal criticism.

[SolitaryWalker]

Error: You can't understand what an analogy is. There is no mixture of IQ types let into MENSA. They all have 135 or higher, or its equivalent from some other test. Nobody with a 115 or its equivalent from another test is getting in. They hedge out other types and, furthermore, brook no argument about whether they ought to accept dumber people. According to the arguments made in the original post of this thread, that makes MENSA a fascist organization for the same reasons it would make INTPc a fascist forum, and more so because of the rigidity of their stance. Note that IQ is just another personality metric, just like MBTI is. The real error here is that the original poster misapplied the term fascism to this site.

This is a sophism in which your flawed analogy clumsily tried to take refuge.

Type is not a personality attribute in the same way as IQ is. You're not born with your 135+ IQ, and this feature of your personality can change. You're born with your type and it is immitigable. If we discriminate based on type we are discriminating against others based on something that they can not change about themselves, just like the fascists discriminate on the grounds of race, which is immutable.

[kaoru029]

I'm an INTP, and I'm also extremely power-hungry.

[SolitaryWalker]

I'm an INTP, and I'm also extremely power-hungry.

You sure you're not confusing yourself with an INTJ? There could be power-hungry INTPs, though this is much more common among INTJs. INs tend not to be that way, Ps less than Js.

[hereandnow]

Anything said about eating while he is eating will be taken as a veiled personal criticism.

Especially "fat ass." Never use that while a guy is eating from the DD

[Hustler]

Type is not a personality attribute in the same way as IQ is. You're not born with your 135+ IQ, and this feature of your personality can change. You're born with your type and it is immitigable. If we discriminate based on type we are discriminating against others based on something that they can not change about themselves, just like the fascists discriminate on the grounds of race, which is immutable.

You're clearly attempting to obfuscate your ridiculous error in logic by burying it under a sideways argument tactic. IQ and personality type are both personality metrics. IQ and personality type also share in that they are mutable in the sense that they are a combination of nature and nurture, albeit only marginally mutable. And, either way, most of what counts as nurture is out of our hands anyway, as our activities and actions in our formative years are in the control of others. To suggest that basing entry and posting requirements of a private, social website on personality type is fascism and yet doing the same for IQ is not is sheer INTJ refusal to admit a very obvious error, because I can't imagine a guy with a self-image as lofty as yours would allow himself to engage in such blatant hypocrisy. It is virtually impossible for someone in his adulthood with a 100 IQ to elevate it to 135 and then get into MENSA; to suggest otherwise and, as such, that MENSA is not equally fascist to INTP Central is nothing short of obtuse. It is certainly at least as easy for someone to shift his preferences in life to shift an axis on MBTI one way or the other. I don't think you can possibly cite any credible sources to the contrary that aren't also undermined by similarly credible sources that say the exact opposite.

This, of course, ignores the impossibility of either organization actually being fascist in that they're not governing anyone, they're not states, and people are completely free to remove themselves from the influence of either at will. Fascism has been severely misapplied as a label here, presumably in the interest of sensationalism.

[SolitaryWalker]

I am not saying that what you're trying to do on this site should be classified as fascism. Earlier on you've claimed that you dont want all non-INTPs banned from this site, yet most restricted and the 6 best allowed to post everywhere. You've insinuated the superiority of INTPs to all other types without providing an argument to support this statement. You should not have even used the word 'best', if you are not saying that INTPs are better than all other types, a better phraseology for this matter would resemble this: 6 non-INTP individuals whose communication style is the most compatible with the one practiced by this INTP community.

And your allusion to the IQ and how the domain should be preserved mainly for INTPs once again insinuates the superiority of our type over all others. I see no issue with somebody saying that the domain should be preserved for people who have this particular personality trait (INTP), yet I do see a problem with somebody suggesting that because they have this personality trait they are superior to those who do not. I can imagine somebody plausibly arguing that people who have membership in MENSA are likely more intelligent than those outside of it because they have a higher IQ, yet we certainly can not build a similar argument for INTPc. Accordingly, having a high IQ is a 'personality metric' to use your terminology, can be thought of as an admirable quality, yet being an INTP can not be. Being an INTP does not guarantee that you will have any of those admirable qualities of character, as intelligence can be possessed by many other types than INTPs, as history shall tell us that there were many non-INTP meritorious scientists and philosophers. For instance, if you are a Ti, this does not mean that you will be logical, it only means that you have more potential to become logical than somebody who is a primary Fe. Indeed typology should be thought of as a personality metric (if at all) in a very different light than qualities like intelligence which are closely linked to IQ.

I am not even talking about fascism here or about how IQ is(or is not) malleable, I am just pointing out that your implicit claim of the pre-eminence of INTPs over all other types is without foundation.

[Hustler]

I am... foundation.
I'm going to let you know straight up that I didn't read that post.

[SolitaryWalker]

I'm going to let you know straight up that I didn't read that post.

Ok here is my point in one sentence: my argument has nothing to do with fascism, my only issue is with you insinuating the typological primacy of INTP over all other types with your allusion to IQ.

[Hermione]

Here's the deal with me being a noob. I hate more than anything being new at anything if it involves people's expectations. A new interest, research topic, student to teach, patient to treat, project is all great. When I deal with others' often unfounded perceptions of a negative nature I become nervous defensive and definitely dumber. (I'm Mensa level but refuse to ever join such a preposterous thing as this... I'm bright not stupid, right?) I also really really value my thinking ability and my intuition, but find both being hijacked when people take pot shots at any of those few abilities I have. damn intellectual snipers. All I ask of this forum is to be myself and not have to pay for it emotionally. I'm not all that good at the emotional realm of mind games which should make me a boy , but alas. I'm stuck being a hot babe. and yes, I have learned to like that since I'm stuck with it and can even be superficial and giggle and play blond sometimes. Just don't laugh at me and don't ever suggest I'm stupid. Okay, I like this forum just fine. Sorry some of the mental monoliths of the forum see us new people ruining all their fun. Wahhh!!

[digesthisickness]

Here's the deal with me being a noob... All I ask of this forum is to be myself and not have to pay for it emotionally. I'm not all that good at the emotional realm of mind games which should make me a boy , but alas. I'm stuck being a hot babe. and yes, I have learned to like that since I'm stuck with it and can even be superficial and giggle and play blond sometimes. Just don't laugh at me and don't ever suggest I'm stupid. Okay, I like this forum just fine. Sorry some of the mental monoliths of the forum see us new people ruining all their fun. Wahhh!!

i don't remember anyone having anything at all against noobies for just being noobies. lots of them start introduction threads and get plenty of 'hellos' and 'welcomes', so maybe i'm misunderstanding or maybe you're under some misguided idea, or hell, maybe even something else.

however, expecting everyone to read this and then walk on eggshells around you trying not to ever step on the toes that you just listed is asking a bit much. we tease, and we debate, so, some of those things you listed, may be perceived by you as happening from time to time even when they aren't. hopefully, you'll be able to tell when that's occuring.

for instance, and along those same lines, i could get all offended about that 'blonde' crack, but i won't. i'm not that anal.

[Jennywocky]

however, expecting everyone to read this and then walk on eggshells around you trying not to ever step on the toes that you just listed is asking a bit much. we tease, and we debate, so, some of those things you listed, may be perceived by you as happening from time to time even when they aren't. hopefully, you'll be able to tell when that's occuring.

Yes, the big thing seems to be that, even when it might not seem like a joke, it's still probably a joke... or at least the typical dry tongue-in-cheek humor.

Anyway, welcome, Hermione.

[hereandnow]

(I'm Mensa level but refuse to ever join such a preposterous thing as this... I'm bright not stupid, right?)

yet, you choose to reveal that you're MENSA level. So if it's preposterous why mention it?

[Hermione]

Thanks , Fortunato. I'm glad yyou understood that I am only taking myself about half seriously here and live my life fairly tongue and cheek. People who are offended by my mouthiness are often the very people who I like to read and hear their opinions. Why I mentioned the mensa and the oversensitivity, probably cause I don't find much to get to know people around, and it keeps me from feeling either too inferior or pseudo - superior to even discuss topics. I think discussions are good. I am pretty annoyed with myself that I am doing such a crappy job of communicating. I like the feedback tho. Lots of really interesting people on here. thanks.

[paulwhy]

yet, you choose to reveal that you're MENSA level. So if it's preposterous why mention it?

I assume it is for the obvious reason: She did not want people to apriori assume that she is stupid.

[hereandnow]

I assume it is for the obvious reason: She did not want people to apriori assume that she is stupid.

Interesting. She's obviously not stupid and one can gather that information from just reading her post.

[paulwhy]

Interesting. She's obviously not stupid and one can gather that information from just reading her post.

Sure that is what I thought as well. I guess people in her past have made that mistake. Maybe they can not believe that a woman can be both good looking and intelligent.
:)

[Rajah]

Interesting. She's obviously not stupid and one can gather that information from just reading her post.Good thing she also let us know she's a "hot babe."

:rolleyes:


EDIT - I mean "stuck being a hot babe."

[damagedxtravert.intp]

it could happen,as well as being attracted to anarchy