New and wanting to post something

[korynael]

Hello. I'm new here and I've been reading through quite a few of these religion and god posts here tonight. As an INTP, I am interested in hearing others thoughts and opinions because I'm curious where the mind-set is of other people. Almost like an "Are we there yet" guage of consciousness. I find most people lacking the ability to have any prolonged understanding of certain "TRUTH" concepts, so as an INTP, my thoughts are that perhaps another INTP will make for better conversation. Or so is my hope :-)

Now, since I wish to participate but havent the slightest idea where to begin, I will just write blindly and see where it takes me. I dont want to dive right into a crazy tangent about my ideas on topic "X", but I tend to spin off thoughts and ideas which easily spawn philosophical, religious and scientific debate, so thats what I will do here... Dont expect specifics for this first post, I just want to see where the crowd is for now :-)

Bear in mind I tend to work with IDEAS more than anything. I prefer to deal with CONCEPTS. So thats the kind of posts I will end up writing I'm sure.

I suppose the reason people gather to discuss religion/ science/ philosophy/ etc. is, in my opinion, becuase our minds are not content with our current conscious state. This is probably becuase we are looking in all the wrong places for guidance. But sadly, it seems that when people finally find some "TRUTH", they disregard it becuase its not "POPULAR" or not politically correct.

For one, nothing we have conceived of, or created so far, has elevated anyone to a satisfactory level of consciousness. This includes ideas, technologies, practices, governements, economies, etc. Everything is still way off and not spritually rewarding at all.

Right here people need to realize that we need to another path. As great as some of the accomplishments we've made seem, they all fall horribly short of anything remotely enlightening. Science I suppose is the root of that problem. And the whole faith vs fact thing still seems to rage, even though fact is a dead end and faith is where things start to get good :-)

But since we like facts so much, and they are safe everywhere, I think its a fact that as humans, we strive for answers becuase it is in our nature, our spiritual nature, to reach for a more enlightened state. A state in which we cannot look to others to provide in the first place. So why do we abandon that side of us? Well...

To cut to the chase, In my experience thus far, if you look for "TRUTH" deep enough, God becomes the only solution. Religion seems to be the end all know all, and we can either embrace it or just continue running circles, never finding that which we seek. Its like being a 4 dimensional object but trying to define yourself only in 3 dimensions. It cant be done "TRUTHFULLY". Unless you are content limiting yourself to 3 dimensions instead of embracing yourself as 4 dimensional. But, I dont think anyone reading this forum would limit themselves like that, so right out the gate, dont expect me to give any credit to our scientific FACTS. Science is a good tool, but now people are so rooted in it, its not a tool anymore, its a cage for their minds, a trap... but anyways...

The problem is that in this voyage for TRUTH, not only will you lose yourself, but you will lose most of everyone else too. Which is why most of us are doomed to fall short in the long race for spirituality and enlightenent. The vast majority of people will reach a point and be afraid or unwilling to continue for many reasons.

Truth is NOT a popular reality, and the closer you come to it, the further away from this world you will end. And the further away from "Human" you will become.

It is a transcendance. As you come to embrace truth, you begin to transform from one being, into another, and as a result of this, the world we live in (and most of the people) will also want to leave you behind, and you them.

So, as flawed humans, we tend to shy away at this point, going back to popular mainstream ideas, safe ideology, and content to spin our wheels debating things we arent even willing to know the truth about becuase its more comfortable or acceptable or whatever.

Jesus said something to the effect of, "when the world hates you, remember that it first hated me". Basically implying that as TRUTH becomes a part of you, you will begin to detach yourself from society and the masses, and they from you.

In case anyone is curious, I am a christian (if I need catagorize myself) but probably not in the sense most people understand. But anything I may repsond to or debate about, will end up with a biblical spin. Just a heads up, but of course I am always willing to listen to the "SCIENCE" enthusiasts, after all, they always have the facts... they just always end up short of the "TRUTH".

Enough, this was too long for an "I'm bored and I'm new here" post. LOL. Feel free to pick this post apart now :-)


Korynael Na'Eyle

[garak]

Personally, while I respect and understand your search for truth, I think one needs to step back once in a while and realize that we are just human and we're probably pretty stupid -- we'll never find "the truth." No matter what "truth" we think we've found, we have no way of proving definitively that it is the ultimate truth. And thus we keep discovering new truths, sometimes invalidating old ones, etc. Say you found the ultimate truth of life, the universe, and everything -- how would you prove it? If the only way you can prove it to yourself is by faith, then you've accomplished nothing more than what billions of other people have already done. Faith can't prove anything, and science can only prove things within the context of science (if that wording makes any sense). I highly doubt we're even capable of understanding all there is to understand. Not to say that we shouldn't try -- because it's fun -- but we shouldn't fool ourselves.

[Xenophon]

I'm having a little trouble following some things in your post, but I am going to make a few comments anyways.

I think that you are right when you say that Science will not give us all the answers, however it will always be able to generate new questions. Science is a process, and it is constantly expanding and evolving. So if you really need to have some magical thing called "TRUTH" then you are absolutely right that Science will never provide such a thing.

However, I think that many religious people fail to realize that religion is far from immutable itself. It changes at a much slower rate than science does, however there is no doubt that it changes over time. You have to remember that Greek, Roman and Egyptian mythology used to be valid religions, however they eventually died out. The 2000 year history of Christianity is just a blink in the history of humanity (unless you are one of the nuts who thinks that the world was created in 7 days in the year 4004 BC.) I accept that Religions are highly refined metaphorical tools to provide understanding of a complex world, however I do not believe that they contain the absolute truth any more than Science does.

For example, the story of Job in the bible I think is a very accurate metaphor for the process of psychic development, but I also think that many of the adventures from Homer's Odyssey represent those ideas just as accurately. These stories have been refined for thousands of years and therefore are very important windows into the nature of history and humanity.

The greatest strength of science is that it is always evolving, however as you pointed out that is also its greatest weakness. Conversly, the greatest strength of religion is its relative stability. It's weakness is its inability to change in a universe that is in no way static.

I myself am known for writing long and winding posts, so I would suggest that it is much easier to respond to a post if there is a specific point. I don't even know if I am arguing with the point you made in your post, because I couldn't really tell what your point was. I look forward to further discussion though.

[Edmond Zedo]

God becomes the only solution.
"Don't come around preachin' and teachin', my nigger. 'Cause a nigger like me you ain't reachin', my nigger..." Schoolly D

Just because you can't "figure it all out" and need some hokumary skyman to make sense of it all for you, doesn't mean I can't, and I need.

[Google Monster]

the goal in science is to get one answer. not to answer them all. To make thing simple no need detail

[mgb]

Hey you posted, way to get over that hump.

[Shai Gar]

Personally, while I respect and understand your search for truth, I think one needs to step back once in a while and realize that we are just human and we're probably pretty stupid -- we'll never find "the truth."
EXACTLY, this is upheld by the truth that earth is the centre of the galaxy, and that earth is flat, and that the sun revolves around the earth, and then that the atom is the smallest possible thing, and then that the nucleus is, no wait it is the electron. there are many things we will discover throughout our existance but we will never discover the absolute truth about the universe or how it operates, smaller truths like how politicians voted to spend the budget, or who our armies/intelligence agencies train and supply to slaughter innocents are truths that can be known absolutely within our lifetime.

[Ascending]

"But sadly, it seems that when people finally find some "TRUTH", they disregard it becuase its not "POPULAR" or not politically correct."

This certainly deserves consideration.

[jimbowley]

korynael, I'll reply because my interest tonight is religious INTPs.

I'm interested in how you come to hold your religious views, perhaps you could describe the indoctrination process you were subjected to?

I worry that your religiousness might not sit comfortably with your INTPness. You might be better of realising that life has no 'meaning' and just try to enjoy yourself without disturbing anyone else.

[Chall T. Dow]

On the subject of the search for truth:

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.
H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

Chall T. Dow

[nBT]

koryneal, i welcome you. your questions are mine. my tries are humble.

1. perception is subjective. so far for seeing truth. truth will always be fragmented.

2. faith and knowledge follow eachohter. if you found out where you had faith in, it becomes knowledge. faith is knowing without expirience. the expierience of more knowledge will not only offset your faith in extreme directions, but you will also gain understanding of the world. more understanding asks more responsibility. get some faith. see 1. knowledge is illusionary.
this is how i see faith actualized in the world. faith > expectation > action.
that wich you thrust you will gain. growth and faith go hand in hand.

3. get a God. and a Saviour. by the time you figured out the world is no pretty place, you are screaming for one, (Trinity). see 1 and 2.

uhm its kinda messy.
but i hope its an ok start.

[wezl]

On the nature of truth:
Truth is too large for the human mind to comprehend so the best you can hope for is to behold a facet or two of it. Truth is like a gem stone, with many facets, and your truth is only one of them. In other words, if you are trying to find truth you are heading for an exhausted breakdown. Lighten up and enjoy today, for tomorrow we will die. :whistle:

[Garyincinci]

It is not important to find truth in life...it is only important to search for it.

[PsiKik]

It seems to me that some give up on the search for truth/facts because it is too difficult and then succumb to the faith trap. So easy to just suspend belief and believe in something( for most, a pre-packaged organized religion). I think this is the root of all organized religion, the giving up of critical thinking because its too hard, just give in and believe. Faith is fate, belief with no reason.

[korynael]

Well, to add a little and comment on comments, and share what I am feeling, I have been teetering with the thought that the world be a better place if we all just sat under a fruit tree capable of bearing infinite amounts of fruit to sustain our life, and a fresh water river with perfectly clean water for drinking, and just sitting there forever and just thinking thoughts. Perhaps with someone else nearby under a similiar tree to talk with every once in while (but thats probably not nessassary, just seems like we would get bored and so maybe, but nah, it wouldnt be relavent)...

Perhaps, since we are on Earth at the moment, we should not have someone nearby under a tree to talk with but instead have a member of the opposite sex share our tree and our time. Actually, that would be irrelavant too, and just a shortcoming of our human nature, but I suppose since the laws of earth and of humans, and our frail human minds and emotions have to have these crutches this may be needed. We are so flawed in our current condition what is the point really. God its sad...

I'm also frightfully dancing with the conculsion that nothing matters while we are here, perhaps becuase of our own insignificance to the grandeur of all else. But at the same time, I struggle with the contradiction that we are all so important (at least to ourselves).

I am not going to get into the process of thoughts that has led me to this idea... I'm discussing the conculsions.

On an unrealted note, I have been toying with the idea that everything that comes from our mouths is FALSE. I may even say is a lie, but that is too strong perhaps, so instead, everything we say is just FALSE. So even these words I am typing are false as I can speak them and thus according to my theory, they must be false.

Unfortunately I am not willing to discuss how I've come to this conclusion either, becuase now I have to log off becuase I'm so far from the truth again becuase I can technically speak these words... And so this is false... As a matter of fact, there is no point in typing or talking beucase none of its true, and so the best thing again is to just sit and think and be provided for by the tree and the river...

Shit, I gotta go.

We need a better form of communication than words and language. We need direct thought sharing or we wont get anywhere closer to the truth... But we can't get it from technology or we will be moving in the wrong direction I fear. So no implants... Seems only the the thoughts I think that I cannot quite put into words are the only relavant truths and ideas... Then again, thats not even completely true...

Another thing that pisses me off is the worlds hang-up about the prolonging of life. We are trying to advance so much in regards to health and this can only be becuase of societies lack of faith. People are afraid to die it seems. When death is ok. We live for as long as we live but why be afraid of death unless you have no faith in an afterlife. And the more people start buying into this prolonged life and medical breakthroughs, and merging with machine, the further away we are going to be from the truth again... And the sad thing is in the name of truth are therse things being introduced and all they are doing is pulling more people away from faith and closer to evil and lies. Again, this isnt a fully correct explanation but somewhere the concept of beleife of what I am "TRYING" to say is sound...

Nevermind, every just go sit under their tree :-)


Korynael

[simian20]

Jesus said something to the effect of, "when the world hates you, remember that it first hated me". Basically implying that as TRUTH becomes a part of you, you will begin to detach yourself from society and the masses, and they from you.
Korynael Na'Eyle

i need a picture of you. you can be my new avatar. i laugh in the face of grammar and punctuation