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View Full Version : How do you, as an INTP, respond to this. (esp the highlighted bits)



demagogic_schizoid
20 Apr 2007, 02:03 AM
The flaws in what he is saying are obvious. What I'm interested in is if any of you can find truth in it, on some level. Perhaps a truth which goes beyond facts? Can feelings be "true", or are they by their nature inferior to what we can conclude when we have a clear mind? Also, how do you feel about your natural tendency to question what this guy says? Do you wish you could censor your thoughts? Or are you glad to be able to keep a clear head while those around you don't. And any other thoughts you have, really.


The Final Emotion
http://subscr.techsideline.com/news_archive/showArticle-2824.php

I am in the business of writing, of articulating my thoughts, of putting into words what others may only sense as a blur of feelings. I have never backed down from the challenge, be it capturing the emotion of a landmark victory, the pain of an agonizing defeat, the triumph and heartbreak that are part and parcel of athletics, even the horror of 9/11 over five years ago. It is my calling, my passion, my God-given talent. But I fear this ... this is too much.

I am not speaking lightly when I say that I cannot comprehend the loss suffered by the families, friends, and loved ones of this tragedy. I have tried to imagine what it must be like to suddenly lose someone close to you in this way. But I can't. I have a wife and three children, and when I try to put myself in that place, that terrible place where so many people have been thrown with no recourse, I can't.

It has only been two days since it happened, but it feels like forever. I am exhausted from being exposed to the brunt of it, from the message boards to the constant news coverage, to the conversations of family and friends, to the scenes on the Virginia Tech campus. Others have said they can't sleep. Not I. When I have fallen into bed past midnight the last two nights, sleep has come easily. It's getting up the next morning that has been difficult.

We never thought this would be us. We have watched these kinds of tragedies from afar, but this one has hit us where we live. The media have descended from around the world, poking, prodding, and worst of all, trying to place blame. An immense amount of pressure has been brought to bear on the Virginia Tech community, first by Cho Seung-Hui himself and then by the crush of international attention. While some of the coverage has been compassionate, much of it has not been, and some of it has bordered on cruel and sensationalistic. None of this surprises me, but being at the center of it still stings, and it changes your perceptions forever.

As I searched for meaning in what happened, I finally found it. I found it in the incredible poise, control, and togetherness shown by the Virginia Tech family. The true character of a person, group, or institution shows itself under pressure, and what the Virginia Tech community has shown us is grace, cohesion, intelligence, and compassion.

I have always thought that there was something different about Hokies, and the last few days have proven it. We always talk about the passion that Hokies have for Virginia Tech, about the special connection they feel to the university, and this tragedy has shown that talk doesn't ring hollow. If it wasn't true, if there wasn't a special bond between members of the Virginia Tech community, then they would have flown apart in the face of this adversity. They did not. They drew together and showed the world a united front.

Those interviewed by the media refused, for the most part, to be drawn into the baiting questions that sought to place blame on university president Charles Steger and the Virginia Tech Police Department. The very students who were in danger Monday let the world know where they stand when they applauded Dr. Steger at Tuesday's convocation service. The vultures were circling, hoping to pick the bones, but the people at Virginia Tech refused. They showed what it means to be Hokies. They drew together.

The students in particular have exceeded my expectations. We tend to think of them just as kids. Loud, shallow, self-centered, focused on the trivial, often spoiled. Adorned with body piercings, tattoos, and too much facial hair.

What we have seen instead, in the countless interviews of students on news channels up and down the dial, are bright, articulate, respectful individuals that any university would be flattered to call its own. Well-groomed, well-spoken, wearing dress clothes, ties, even suits, patiently answering questions, keeping their composure in the face of more than most of us will ever experience. I am on the one part humbled -- they are better people than I was at their age -- and on the other part proud. Well done, students of Virginia Tech. You are representative of the type of people Virginia Tech is admitting and producing -- you, not Cho Seung-Hui -- and I am proud of both you and my university.

From the beautiful and gifted Reema Samaha to the cheerful, intelligent and talented Ryan Clark, Cho's victims were pictures of inspiration. These were not vapid, self-centered individuals. It is sad that their lives were cut short, but perhaps the way they conducted those lives will inspire others. They make me wish I could go through college again, to be more like them.

By the nature of what I do for a living, my window into the Virginia Tech world is athletics. Among the fans, athletics is about passion. It is about pride in victory and anguish in defeat. These emotions are always strong, always out of proportion to the importance of the games themselves, but I have always felt that with Virginia Tech fans, there was something beyond the typical fan relationship with their sports teams. Now that I have seen that passion and togetherness extend beyond the playing fields and the stadiums and coliseums and into the glare of this awful spotlight, I know it to be true.

Being a Hokie is not a mercenary relationship. It is not a business proposition. It is not an exchange of goods and services for money. It is a shared bond, a love that comes from somewhere we don't understand and can't explain to others. We do not take from this university; it gives to us. Perhaps when we first arrive on its campus, we have our own selfish interests in mind, but by the time we leave, we are transformed. We are Hokies.

It is sad and tragic that this happened to us. Because we love this university, we are devastated by what happened here. But if it was necessary for us to suffer in order for others to benefit, it is a burden we will bear, because our motto -- Ut Prosim, That I May Serve -- tells us that's what we must do. If our tragedy brings you together, if our loss makes you safer and makes you value what is important in life, if our suffering is not in vain, then we are prepared to shoulder this load ... so you don't have to. That has always been the mission of this
university, and we are honored to carry it out.

Do not let the deaths of these 32 victims be in vain. Look into your hearts and see what it teaches you, and how you may be better because of what we have gone through. And know that when the bodies are in the earth, when the media has left, when others have moved on and life resumes its course, that for us, there is only one emotion left: Love. Love for this university, love for the people who died on April 16th, 2007, and love for those who are left behind.

Remember this, and what happened here will not have been for naught.

William Neal Stewart
Virginia Tech, BSEE 1987

SolitaryWalker
20 Apr 2007, 02:46 AM
The flaws in what he is saying are obvious. What I'm interested in is if any of you can find truth in it, on some level. Perhaps a truth which goes beyond facts? Can feelings be "true", or are they by their nature inferior to what we can conclude when we have a clear mind? Also, how do you feel about your natural tendency to question what this guy says? Do you wish you could censor your thoughts? Or are you glad to be able to keep a clear head while those around you don't. And any other thoughts you have, really.

Not sure if I clearly understand the question that the OP purports, but I would say that I'd just try to keep my head. Make sure that I get a sufficient amount of down-time for solitary meditations, yet avoid isolating myself. When you isolate yourself, this is when your Ti becomes preponderous over the Ne and you will be getting flooded by the Fe impulses which are the source of many quintissential INTP problems. The key here is balance and cultivation of the Ne. Yet we must also be careful to not fall for the mistaken notion that we can become more in tune with the Ne by spending as much time in social interaction as possible, as this will unconciously force us to withdraw and over-rely on the Ti. In order for you to do quality Ne cultivation work you have to be comfortable in social situations.

I will use myself as an example here. Not so long ago, you may all remember I was a very prolific poster here on INTPc, yet at the same time you did not see a lot of Ne work in my writings and many of them seemed like manifest Ti which left little room for independent Ne work. My Ne fell slave to my superior function because I was uncomfortable here and did not get any more comfortable untill I've focused on cultivating the Ne.

I've managed to pull this off not by engaging in all social interaction possible, as we know that this does not work, but by forcing my mind to deal with the alogical. I've read quite a bit of existentialism and other literature that forced me to deal with the alogical. After this has been accomplished, my mind was immediately adjusted to be more comfortable in situations that require external focus and reliance on Ne. So this is an advise to all of those isolated INTPs, you can cultivate your Ne in your solitary activities, like reading, granted that you've got the right material.

Now and for the concluding words on INTP level-headedness, this virtue may be illusory and in the end prove to be your worst enemy. If you do not pay sufficient head to your emotional life and hence the inferior function, it will get out of your conscious control and you will be overwhelmed. As Paul James noted in the INTP profile: the more they try to repress feelings the less objective they become. And Leanor Thompson also would add: INTPs who make a conscious attempt to cultivate their Ne will soon realize that to give up being impersonal does not mean to give up being objective.

And again, the general purport of my message is that the best way to develop your Ne is not by engaging in extroverted activity, but by processing information that requires its input in your solitary meditations, after you do this, you will easily be more comfortable in social environments.

demagogic_schizoid
20 Apr 2007, 02:56 AM
Not sure if I clearly understand the question that the OP purports...

Perhaps I should expand then. INTP's have limited Fe, and it's their weakest function. This guy's speech/essay was a master-class in Fe. Many INTP's will find themselves at odds with much of what he says, as it doesn't stand up to close scrutiny. But yet, considering the subject matter, subjecting the speech to close scrutiny seems inappropriate - yet it's what we naturally do. So I wondered how INTP's reconciled these two conflicting desires. And also, if they could find any truth in the line which is basically that "being a Hokie is something special, something which no non-Hokie can understand, something better than any non-Hokie can experience, and it can't be explained or understood." Now the flaws in this are blindingly obvious, which is why I asked for the opposite approach.

SolitaryWalker
20 Apr 2007, 03:24 AM
Perhaps I should expand then. INTP's have limited Fe, and it's their weakest function. This guy's speech/essay was a master-class in Fe. Many INTP's will find themselves at odds with much of what he says, as it doesn't stand up to close scrutiny. But yet, considering the subject matter, subjecting the speech to close scrutiny seems inappropriate - yet it's what we naturally do. So I wondered how INTP's reconciled these two conflicting desires. And also, if they could find any truth in the line which is basically that "being a Hokie is something special, something which no non-Hokie can understand, something better than any non-Hokie can experience, and it can't be explained or understood." Now the flaws in this are blindingly obvious, which is why I asked for the opposite approach.


Yes, there definitely is an anthithesis between the need to be objective (Ti) and the need to give affirmation to the passions (Fe). I would still say that the best way to accomplish this is by cultivating the Ne, this will give rise to the natural development of the Si which is linked to the Fe, and the Fe will follow on the extroverted axis of the Ne when iNtuition is first engaged with. INTPs who have developed their Ne may relate to this quote and certainly Fe, as an implict note is taken of feeling things through, as Extroverted functions tend to be experiential and Introverted conceptual.

Generally you dont hear this from INTPs untill they have had their Extroverted functions emancipated from the services of the Ti. But in the end they would still remain more conceptual than experiential, they would just enjoy their experiential functions more than INTPs who are not as well developed.

Jennywocky
20 Apr 2007, 03:33 AM
Perhaps I should expand then. INTP's have limited Fe, and it's their weakest function. This guy's speech/essay was a master-class in Fe.

Yes, I agree. The whole piece drips with it. (And I'm not necessarily saying that is a bad thing, although at spots I found it too much to handle. It just felt too dramatic.) But really, the focus is on the bonds between the individuals and the community as a whole, and finding their identity in relationship to each other.


Many INTP's will find themselves at odds with much of what he says, as it doesn't stand up to close scrutiny. But yet, considering the subject matter, subjecting the speech to close scrutiny seems inappropriate - yet it's what we naturally do. So I wondered how INTP's reconciled these two conflicting desires. And also, if they could find any truth in the line which is basically that "being a Hokie is something special, something which no non-Hokie can understand, something better than any non-Hokie can experience, and it can't be explained or understood." Now the flaws in this are blindingly obvious, which is why I asked for the opposite approach.

Hmm. Well, yes, one flaw is that the same logic can be applied to any group, not just Hokie's; and it's also assuming that one person's experience as a Hokie is the same as another Hokie's... and so forth.

Now, if you are talking about how I would choose to respond... I would probably let this guy say his piece and find value in it. During a time of terrible trauma to his community, he is taking a positive approach, supporting other members, finding and giving strength and encouragement, and so on. There is little value in someone picking apart his essay (i.e., I would not critique and then argue it with him) at this time, because right now the community is under a lot of stress and it needs to find solidarity and recover from what happened.

Perhaps if the same man made the same sorts of arguments repeatedly, a few years into the future, at some point I would decide that the time was now appropriate to poke or prod at some of the logical inconsistencies and/or assumptions... but right now is not that time.

As a human being, I should say that I can respect and even empathize with him, due to the "positive angle" he is taking and the overall goals of survival and community that he is holding up as the highest good. Although I can bristle at some of the assumption, I can look at it from his perspective and see that he is doing something very positive from him and that the outcome will be positive and so I would not stand in its way, and I might even encourage him and say his piece meant something to me... because I can respect his intentions as a human being, trying to remain faithful and constructive and holding the group together.

Is that what you wanted to know?

airjaw
20 Apr 2007, 04:05 AM
Perhaps the flaws don't lie in his words, but in how you view them.

Varelse
20 Apr 2007, 04:06 AM
I guess I can see how such statements might be helpful to some of the victims' families.


From the beautiful and gifted Reema Samaha to the cheerful, intelligent and talented Ryan Clark, Cho's victims were pictures of inspiration. These were not vapid, self-centered individuals. It is sad that their lives were cut short, but perhaps the way they conducted those lives will inspire others. They make me wish I could go through college again, to be more like them.I don't want someone like this speaking at my funeral, though. I'd like some level of honesty there. *cough*speakerforthedead*cough*

demagogic_schizoid
20 Apr 2007, 04:23 AM
Perhaps the flaws don't lie in his words, but in how you view them.

I'm open to that possibility.

HilbertSpace
20 Apr 2007, 04:34 AM
What the author is trying to do in this piece is rally the troops. He is appealing to their commonality as fellow students, faculty, and alumni of VT. VT is a pretty enthusiastic school - I've known a couple of people who went there, and they always considered themselves part of that fellowship.

There is some rationality to this - the school becomes a family, or perhaps a tribe. Tragic events, from natural disasters to man-made incidents, force people to deal with issues ranging from fear and terror to existential crisis and despair. By re-identifying with one's group, you can help people get through rough times. The author calls upon the community of VT to come together on the basis of shared values and shared experience.

I don't fault the author for this sort of thing - it's expected, and perhaps even necessary. I sympathize with him and I can't say I disapprove of his way of dealing with the situation.