Radically conservative INTPs?

[SolitaryWalker]

Anyone in a strong affinity with a a conservative political philosophy? At least stronger than with the liberal one?

[Prothero]

Strongly conservative as the only choice?

I am conservative because I recognize that any agenda for change is usually controlled, and applied, by social engineer types who run with rough, first ideas that aren't likely to deliver meaningful results, and often have negative side effects. So conservative to me simply means that we need to change, but to do so carefully, taking into account the possible downsides to each plan and finding additional solutions. Social engineering is dangerous stuff in the hands of politicians, the price paid by one generation becoming the status quo for the next, even while it fails to solve the original problem.

What conservative doesn't mean to me is being part of the Republican agenda (the usual association.)

[SolitaryWalker]

Strongly conservative as the only choice?

I am conservative because I recognize that any agenda for change is usually controlled, and applied, by social engineer types who run with rough, first ideas that aren't likely to deliver meaningful results, and often have negative side effects. So conservative to me simply means that we need to change, but to do so carefully, taking into account the possible downsides to each plan and finding additional solutions. Social engineering is dangerous stuff in the hands of politicians, the price paid by one generation becoming the status quo for the next, even while it fails to solve the original problem.

What conservative doesn't mean to me is being part of the Republican agenda (the usual association.)

I dont care if you're only mildly conservative, I want to know if you're a nationalist fanatic or that you could never associate yourself with anything that even smells liberal to the slightest extent.

Are you a dogmatic conservative? Do you think that liberals are spawns of Satan? Do you treat the word of your republican representatives as the Catholic Church worshippers treat their their priests?

If you're only mildly conservative or could envision a scenario where you for once would support a liberal idea or a liberal politician instead of a conservative one, you've got to vote 'Not'.

[Prothero]

I dont care if you're only mildly conservative, I want to know if you're a nationalist fanatic or that you could never associate yourself with anything that even smells liberal to the slightest extent.

Nationalist fanatic, no.
Associate with anything liberal, no.

Ideally I would like a conservative foundation to work from, where the liberal ideas were formulated to deliver the actual results promised (or close enough to the ideal to recognize.) The first brings stagnation, the latter the ruin of grand schemes.

I confess, the choices of this poll were tough.

[SolitaryWalker]

Nationalist fanatic, no.
Associate with anything liberal, no.

Ideally I would like a conservative foundation to work from, where the liberal ideas were formulated to deliver the actual results promised (or close enough to the ideal to recognize.) The first brings stagnation, the latter the ruin of grand schemes.

I confess, the choices of this poll were tough.


Ok, than it was a good choice on your part to take the first option, since you'd never even give the liberals a chance.

[demagogic_schizoid]

nationalism is not conservative. at least not in the American sense. The trouble is, it means different things to different people. Are we talking British Monarchist "one nation" conservatism, or American "state's rights" conservatism, Islamic conservatism, Catholic conservatism, or what? Many of these ideologies are diametrically opposed to each other on many issues.

[Prothero]

Ok, than it was a good choice on your part to take the first option, since you'd never even give the liberals a chance.

Ah, but I have given them a chance in that I do not openly oppose them, and will on occasion, in local elections, vote for them. It's just that overall I think they're every bit as frightening as agenda driven conservatives.

I do expect to be in the minority on this poll, but it will be interesting to see if I am alone in the choice.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Ah, but I have given them a chance in that I do not openly oppose them, and will on occasion, in local elections, vote for them. It's just that overall I think they're every bit as frightening as agenda driven conservatives.

I do expect to be in the minority on this poll, but it will be interesting to see if I am alone in the choice.

from a British point of view, American "conservatism" is pretty revolutionary ie belief in decentralisation, strong emphasis on rights (we don't even have a written constitution), anti-monarchist, "no taxation without representation", "all men are created equal"...I'm not projecting these views onto you as I don't know your views...but in Britain, they are not very conservative views. For example, most British conservatives would never liberalise gun control laws.

[SolitaryWalker]

nationalism is not conservative. at least not in the American sense. The trouble is, it means different things to different people. Are we talking British Monarchist "one nation" conservatism, or American "state's rights" conservatism, Islamic conservatism, Catholic conservatism, or what? Many of these ideologies are diametrically opposed to each other on many issues.


I am talking about conservative philosophies not conservative practical politics that are influenced by culture.

Ok how about this.

1-Communist
10-Fascist

Unless you're at 7 or higher vote 'Not'

[demagogic_schizoid]

I am talking about conservative philosophies not conservative practical politics that are influenced by culture.

Ok how about this.

1-Communist
10-Fascist

Unless you're at 7 or higher vote 'Not'

Fascism is viewed by many as the antithesis of conservatism. Fascism is populist and collectivist. Some right-wingers viewed Roosevelt as a fascist for example. your definitions need improving. Or at least, try giving a definition. TBH I don't even know what you are referring to when you say "conservative". FWIW, I do not think Bush is a conservative.

[SolitaryWalker]

Fascism is viewed by many as the antithesis of conservatism. Fascism is populist and collectivist. Some right-wingers viewed Roosevelt as a fascist for example. your definitions need improving. Or at least, try giving a definition. TBH I don't even know what you are referring to when you say "conservative". FWIW, I do not think Bush is a conservative.

Lets not play around with words here.

1-Anarchist (No government)
10-Despotist(One strong leader worshipped in the world-embracing personality cult)

[demagogic_schizoid]

Lets not play around with words here.

1-Anarchist (No government)
10-Despotist(One strong leader worshipped in the world-embracing personality cult)

So Stalin was a conservative?

I'm not playing about with words. I don't think you know what you mean when you say "conservative". I don't know if there is one clear definition either. some people might say a libertarian is more conservative than a Nazi, because a Nazi is a utopian collectivist with influences of socialist ideology and a notion of "progress".

[SolitaryWalker]

So Stalin was a conservative?

I'm not playing about with words. I don't think you know what you mean when you say "conservative". I don't know if there is one clear definition either. some people might say a libertarian is more conservative than a Nazi, because a Nazi is a utopian collectivist with influences of socialist ideology and a notion of "progress".

Yes Stalin was conservative. There were no real communists, they were just fascists in disguise.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Yes Stalin was conservative. There were no real communists, they were just fascists in disguise.

lol so you're making this post on the premise that Stalin was a conservative? shouldn't you have clarified that before? Can you just please give a definition of what a conservative is? Because I doubt most people who would vote "conservative" on the poll would consider Stalin to be one, or indeed "fascism" to be conservative. Like I said, fascism is populist, it's about "the people". by some definitions of conservatism, this is incompatible. The trouble is, conservatism has never been defined: it's not an ideology. what we inthe west call conservatism is a variant of liberalism. What people in other countries call conservative is often diametrically opposed to our idea of what conservatism is.

[SolitaryWalker]

lol so you're making this post on the premise that Stalin was a conservative? shouldn't you have clarified that before? Can you just please give a definition of what a conservative is? Because I doubt most people who owuld vote conservative would consider Stalin to be one, or indeed "fascism" to be conservative. LikeI said, fascism is populist, it's about "the pople". by some definitions of conservatism, this is incompatible. The trouble is, conservatism has never been defined: it's not an ideology. what we inthe west call conservatism is a variant of liberalism. What people in other countries call conservative is often diametrically opposed to our idea of what conservatism is.

Just forget those stupid little words. Stalin wanted for the whole nation to worship him

He was a despot and not an anarchist. He would have been a 10.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Just forget those stupid little words. Stalin wanted for the whole nation to worship him

well discovered. that doesn't make him a conservative by any definition except your own

[SolitaryWalker]

well discovered. that doesn't make him a conservative by any definition except your own

Nevermind what conservatism means, I am saying that he would have voted yes on my poll.

So again.

1-Anarchy
10-Despotism

Vote 'not' unless you're at 7 or higher

[demagogic_schizoid]

Nevermind what conservatism means, I am saying that he would have voted yes on my poll.

He would have said he was a communist.

Try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism

[SolitaryWalker]

He would have said he was a communist.

Try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism

Yes, but had he been honest he would have rated himself a 10. As he didnt believe in the Communistic anarchy he believed in the complete opposite of that.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Yes, but had he been honest he would have rated himself a 10. As he didnt believe in the Communistic anarchy he believed in the complete opposite of that.

sorry, that post makes no sense. you're redefining conservatism as something unrecognisable from what it's generally defined as. come back when you've read the wikipedia link

[SolitaryWalker]

sorry, that post makes no sense. you're redefining conservatism as something unrecognisable from what it's generally defined as. come back when you've read the wikipedia link


Words dont have any meaning so just get over them. We can easily change their conventional meaning or invent some new ones, its fine as long as the other person understands what we are saying, it doesnt make sense to cling to the old-fashioned definitions, they inhibit the mobility of the exploration of ideas. Its difficult enough as it is to explain many things in words we dont need to make it any more difficult by making our language even more rigid than it was meant to be.

[demagogic_schizoid]

FWIW you also misrepresent Stalinism. The objective of Stalinism was to lead "the people" to victory against the capitalists through building a self-sufficient People's Republic. The justification for totalitarianism was that it was necessary, because the imperialists were waging war on Russia. Therefore, to defeat them the people must unite and modernise their country to become the world superpower. the ideology was to unite with progressive sections of the national bourgeoisie and industrialise, to wipe out the conservative peasantry and it's traditional culture, along with all remnants of the old religious, royalist order, in order that the proletariate could triumph over the imperialist parasites.

Find me a conservative who believes that.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Words dont have any meaning so just get over them. We can easily change their conventional meaning or invent some new ones, its fine as long as the other person understands what we are saying, it doesnt make sense to cling to the old-fashioned definitions, they inhibit the mobility of the exploration of ideas. Its difficult enough as it is to explain many things in words we dont need to make it any more difficult by making our language even more rigid than it was meant to be.

if words don't have any meaning, why are you asking people to vote for one? you're the one who started a poll in order to classify people. if you want them vote, be clear about what they are voting for. sorry but you are becoming nonsensical.

[SolitaryWalker]

if words don't have any meaning, why are you asking people to vote for one? you're the one who started a poll in order to classify people. if you want them vote, be clear about what they are voting for. sorry but you are becoming nonsensical.

Read up on Popper's epistemology for that. Words have meaning, but we can change them on the fly as long as we agree on the definitions. So we dont need 1 rigid definition for each word.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Read up on Popper's epistemology for that. Words have meaning, but we can change them on the fly as long as we agree on the definitions. So we dont need 1 rigid definition for each word.

ok then, in that case this is a "brilliant" thread.;)

[SolitaryWalker]

ok then, in that case this is a "brilliant" thread.;)

And what do you understand for brilliant to be in that sentence?

[booyalab]

Anyone in a strong affinity with a a conservative political philosophy? At least stronger than with the liberal one?

it sounds like you're lumping moderate and strongly conservative all under the RADICAL moniker, that's pretty offensive. Plus, as ds pointed out, you don't even know what conservative means.

[SolitaryWalker]

it sounds like you're lumping moderate and strongly conservative all under the RADICAL moniker, that's pretty offensive. Plus, as ds pointed out, you don't even know what conservative means.


Study Popper's epistemology.

I dont need to know anything about those inane, meaningless labels of modern day politics to ask the question that I have asked. Your criticism is manifestly meritless. Yet again I am not surprised at all, there has never been a time when something different came out of you.

8, you'd be a nationalist

7 you're moderately strongly conservative

Most people are a 5 within the 4.8-5.2 range. moderate conservative should be well under 6.. if you're a 4.5 you're a distinctly expressed liberal... 6 you'd be a very strong conservative... 7.. you're not far away from nationalism..

[airjaw]

this thread is ridiculous, it looks like seawolf is arguing with himself.

one of you needs to change your avatar

[Jennywocky]

this thread is ridiculous, it looks like seawolf is arguing with himself.

In a way, I suppose he is.

[demagogic_schizoid]

In a way, I suppose he is.

I don't like where you're going with that. In fact I'd say your inane comment is manifestly meritless, because clearly, I was making sense and he wasn't. Read Voltaire's Candice and all will become clear. In fact if we were to make a list, with Seawolf=1.), I'd be 15.) and you'd be 7.)

Seawolf - not all nationalism is conservative. Read about Peronism. Read the Wikipedia link, to learn from people who know something about the topic. Your definition is more rigid than theirs.

[SolitaryWalker]

I don't like where you're going with that. In fact I'd say your inane comment is manifestly meritless, because clearly, I was making sense and he wasn't. Read Voltaire's Candice and all will become clear. In fact if we were to make a list, with Seawolf=1.), I'd be 15.) and you'd be 7.)

Seawolf - not all nationalism is conservative. Read about Peronism. Read the Wikipedia link, to learn from people who know something about the topic. Your definition is more rigid than theirs.


Again to hell with your conservatism.

I just want to know how much in common you have with the fascists regardless of what you call yourself. Oh God! Now you're going to insist on some inane definition of fascism that we have to stick to. Ok how about: an ideology where the focus is on making one strong ruler who shall be worshipped as a God.
I've read Candide and certainly do not see the connection to this, it must be very subtle.

[HilbertSpace]

Dear Administrators:

Would it be possible to have the next emoticon be a smiley with a 747 streaking overhead?

Thanks,

Hilbert

[C.J.Woolf]

Dear Administrators:

Would it be possible to have the next emoticon be a smiley with a 747 streaking overhead?
Or Spacelab. Or both, so the poster can fine-tune his/her graphic sarcasm.

[MacGuffin]

Dear Administrators:

Would it be possible to have the next emoticon be a smiley with a 747 streaking overhead?

Thanks,

Hilbert

Just use this and change avatars:

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/omnipoint.JPG

[SolitaryWalker]

Just use this and change avatars:

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/omnipoint.JPG

You should wipe out omnirook there, subtle humor is always better.

[MacGuffin]

You should wipe out omnirook there, subtle humor is always better.
Is that something you read somewhere or...?

[SolitaryWalker]

Is that something you read somewhere or...?

No really, think about it. ESTPs and ENTPs tend to make the best comedians and Extroverted Perceivement's humor tends to be indirect more than direct.

[MacGuffin]

No really, think about it. ESTPs and ENTPs tend to make the best comedians and Extroverted Perceivement's humor tends to be indirect more than direct.
:banana:

[rek]

This thread really sucked until the last 5 posts, but now: 5 stars!

EDIT - never mind make that seven posts since two were posted since I refreshed.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Again to hell with your conservatism.

I just want to know how much in common you have with the fascists regardless of what you call yourself. Oh God! Now you're going to insist on some inane definition of fascism that we have to stick to. Ok how about: an ideology where the focus is on making one strong ruler who shall be worshipped as a God.

In that case I vote no. So would a lot of people who would consider themselves conservative. The definitions I linked you to are not inane, they are nuanced and intelligent, unlike yours.

And you should re-read Candice. I would say that if Voltaire is 1.) and Popper is 10.), then conservatism is probably minus 34.), Stalin is 7.), you're 22.), and you intersect at about 12.). If you want to know what that is, calculate the differences between yourself and Popper.:wave:

[SolitaryWalker]

In that case I vote no. So would a lot of people who would consider themselves conservative. The definitions I linked you to are not inane, they are nuanced and intelligent, unlike yours.

And you should re-read Candice. I would say that if Voltaire is 1.) and Popper is 10.), then conservatism is probably minus 34.), Stalin is 7.), you're 22.), and you intersect at about 12.). If you want to know what that is, calculate the differences between yourself and Popper.:wave:

Yes, I dont care if they are conservative in a conventional sense of the word, I only care if they are nationalist fanatics or close to it.

Sorry I am still not catching on the Candide allegory, were those numbers a big satire on Leibniz's best of all possible worlds?

[booyalab]

Yes, I dont care if they are conservative in a conventional sense of the word, I only care if they are nationalist fanatics or close to it.

Sorry I am still not catching on the Candide allegory, were those numbers a big satire on Leibniz's best of all possible worlds?

ok, i have an idea.....dispense of this thread altogether and start a new one called "Radically nationalist INTPs?"
Nationalism and Conservatism are. not. the. same. thing.

[demagogic_schizoid]

ok, i have an idea.....dispense of this thread altogether and start a new one called "Radically nationalist INTPs?"


Careful what you wish for.

Seawolf, before you do that, please read something about nationalism. thanks.

[SolitaryWalker]

Careful what you wish for.

Seawolf, before you do that, please read something about nationalism. thanks.

Enough of those pesky labels, how about 'state worshipper' or a 'despot' instead of nationalist, nationalism is frequently bound to evolve into fascism anyways.

[demagogic_schizoid]

forget other people's pesky definitions and classify yourself according to mine instead.

[SolitaryWalker]

forget other people's pesky definitions and classify yourself according to mine instead.

There is no need to classify when we can just work with raw ideas. You can use whatever labels you want to say different things as only as the image of the idea is preserved.

[booyalab]

Careful what you wish for.

Seawolf, before you do that, please read something about nationalism. thanks.

at least if he made that thread i wouldn't be tempted to look at it...much.

[booyalab]

There is no need to classify when we can just work with raw ideas. You can use whatever labels you want to say different things as only as the image of the idea is preserved.

pepto bismol towel batteries cheese GYROSCOPE? duffel bag, ice cream cone.

[cjs55]

I'm closer to fascism than democracy, although I wouldn't label myself a fascist.

[SolitaryWalker]

I'm closer to fascism than democracy, although I wouldn't label myself a fascist.

Whats your stance to nationalism?

[cjs55]

Essential in some respect to success. Globalism is a miserable failure. And if there are to be separate nations, there needs to be culture to sustain them. I think that good nationalism is first a culture-focused ideology, that is, where state and citizenship are intertwined not by a silly voting process that leads to decay and idiot leaders but by culture itself. I think most successful groups of human beings follow this trend, from tribes to larger groups.

Race-based nationalism may or may not be necessary. Race and culture have been inseparable in the past, and likely leads to more solidarity, which is certainly important.

But, I think the environment should be issue #1 and socialism to some extent is necessary as well.