Refineries?

[Larkin]

Last summer, we watched oil climb to record highs $3.00 per gallon. Our oil man administration said that it said it was out of their hands and it was the market forces at work.

All of us watched the oil prices plunge a full 33% just before the 2006 elections. It stayed there a few months and suddenly Fox TV is warning us that it is going to hit record levels by summer. (how do they know?)
currently it is $3.20. they say that it is because of the refinery capacity. The administration says their hands are tied again because of the refineries.

I am a big fan of intensive development of alturnative energy sources and that should be our major objective, but, Even though it is kind of retro to build new refineries, stratgely shouldnt we be doing that, or at least back up refineries?

It is becomming more and more apparent that this is a war for Exxon. They are reaping record profits. if this war is for them, dont you think they should kick in a little bit towards the cost of this war?

[Lateralus]

That's a nice sentiment, but it's not realistic. This country fights wars for it's corporations. That's what it does.

[omnirook]

Last summer, we watched oil climb to record highs $3.00 per gallon. Our oil man administration said that it said it was out of their hands and it was the market forces at work.

All of us watched the oil prices plunge a full 33% just before the 2006 elections. It stayed there a few months and suddenly Fox TV is warning us that it is going to hit record levels by summer. (how do they know?)
currently it is $3.20. they say that it is because of the refinery capacity. The administration says their hands are tied again because of the refineries.

I am a big fan of intensive development of alturnative energy sources and that should be our major objective, but, Even though it is kind of retro to build new refineries, stratgely shouldnt we be doing that, or at least back up refineries?

It is becomming more and more apparent that this is a war for Exxon. They are reaping record profits. if this war is for them, dont you think they should kick in a little bit towards the cost of this war?

Isn't going to happen.

Look, Bush and Co are not conservatives. Period. They are elitists who have comandeered the conservative rhetoric w/o the least interest in the conservative agenda. This isn't the Eisenhower Administration - it isn't even the Nixon Administration - it's the Bush the Second Administration, and Bush II is an elitist who believes in big government, so long as the purpose of big government is to keep the slaves in chains and to guarantee profits for the ruling elite. Hence all the "privatization" - all of that has gone to pals, the fuckers didn't even bother w/a show of a bidding process but outright declared that "It is perfectly understandable if the Vice-Pig feels comfortable w/the swine that he knows." That's a pretty good translation of what was actually said, what was actually reported - and what actually didn't get so much as a token bit of outrage in the media. These scumbags have taken over, and they don't give a good damn about anybody, nobody. In their "hearts" - the pieces of shale, that is - they truly believe that they are God's own chosen to rule over the earth and that they deserve what they have, even if they have to steal it, even if they have to murder for it. The lives lost in this war meant NOTHING to them. The lives lost on 9/11 meant NOTHING to them. The lives that will be lost as this junta remains in power mean NOTHING to them. If God loved those people, they wouldn't be poor; if God loved those people, they wouldn't be weak.

[Dark Razor]

Last summer, we watched oil climb to record highs $3.00 per gallon. Our oil man administration said that it said it was out of their hands and it was the market forces at work.

All of us watched the oil prices plunge a full 33% just before the 2006 elections. It stayed there a few months and suddenly Fox TV is warning us that it is going to hit record levels by summer. (how do they know?)
currently it is $3.20. they say that it is because of the refinery capacity. The administration says their hands are tied again because of the refineries.

I am a big fan of intensive development of alturnative energy sources and that should be our major objective, but, Even though it is kind of retro to build new refineries, stratgely shouldnt we be doing that, or at least back up refineries?


Just wait till you have 8$/gallon like we have in Europe right now, maybe it's time to get a bicycle? Or develop more fuel efficient cars.

[omnirook]

Just wait till you have 8$/gallon like we have in Europe right now, maybe it's time to get a bicycle? Or develop more fuel efficient cars.

5 summers to the $8/gallon point. I'm staking a claim for my prediction here and now.

To get us to accept $2/gallon, we had the summer of $3/gallon, falling back after Labor Day.

To get us to accept $3/gallon, we will now have the summer of $4/gallon, falling back after Labor Day - and so on, for the next several years, until the oil companies meet their goal of a world-wide price of $10/gallon.

What that does to people, how many lose their jobs, lose their homes, lose their lives - does NOT matter. What matters is getting the optimal price for the remaining oil, fuck everybody. If you can't afford the oil, you should die, anyway. NOTE: the US requirements for fuel efficiency have not only not increased under the Pig, they have been rolled back, so that cars are now getting worse mileage than they were 8 years ago.

[Dark Razor]

NOTE: the US requirements for fuel efficiency have not only not increased under the Pig, they have been rolled back, so that cars are now getting worse mileage than they were 8 years ago.

But why are people still buying American cars then? instead of buying a Toyota that gets 60 miles per galon?

Also cant the individual states develop effective public transportation systems, and cities change the layouts of the city grid to reduce the need for cars? As I understand the states have a lot of autonomy and can act even if the federal governement does not, or am I mistaken?

[omnirook]

But why are people still buying American cars then? instead of buying a Toyota that gets 60 miles per galon?

Also cant the individual states develop effective public transportation systems, and cities change the layouts of the city grid to reduce the need for cars? As I understand the states have a lot of autonomy and can act even if the federal governement does not, or am I mistaken?

Expensive to buy, expensive to maintain, expensive to insure - how's that for stacking against?

States can act w/o the Federal Government, provided that they don't need the Federal Government's money - find me a state that does not, and your suggestion might stand a chance.

See, the Federal Government does this - it passes entitlement bills in the Congress, and the president signs them into law. The entitlement bills, such as "No Child Left Behind," etc are essentially orders to the states to implement new programs - and to pay for them. The Congress will not fund its own programs. As much as 80% of any state's budget is fixed now, leaving only 20% for discretionary spending. A few more federal mandates, and the discretionary spending will be gone all together. "Power belongs to him who holds the purse strings" - as true now as ever. States have very little real choice in how they spend their money, which is why I consider our "federal system" an expensive farce, the purpose of which is really to hand out gravy jobs to local "authorities" - who do as the federal government wants them to do, no matter what. "Smoke and mirrors" sums it up very nicely. Our governent is now much much centralized than the UK's government, but we are paying through the nose for devolution!

The other thing is this - the auto industry successfuly lobbied to destroy public transportation in this country. The history of the hardball tactics used by the auto industry were documented in a PBS series. In every way possible, public transport was crushed. The roads went in, and Americans were raised from the cradle to believe that owning a car was part of their identity and constituted a huge portion of the "freedom" that they were taught to revere. Only in places like NY, which had public transport before the auto was developed, were there public transportation systems of any size or sophistication. The next step was to discourage even walking. NY and a few other major, older cities, are quite unlike most places in the United States: there are sidewalks. All across America, there are towns and even cities where there are NO sidewalks, where everything is set up to cater to cars. Another PBS series documented the attempt of one sociologist to walk from the east coast to the west coast. He came to innumerable dead ends where he simply could not walk (river crossings were especially good for this), and he was arrested nearly 20 times on charges of either vagrancy or "suspicion" - just because he was walking!

[stopharian]

But why are people still buying American cars then? instead of buying a Toyota that gets 60 miles per galon?



Toyota doesnt make a car that gets 60 mpg. The prius gets about 43 on the highway which is only slightyy worse then a 1978 honda civic or about the same as a diesel jetta. total marketing gimic

[Dark Razor]

Ok Omnirook I understand the reasons for all this, I was just asking questions about things that seemed strage to me now I see that it's more complicated than I thought.


Toyota doesnt make a car that gets 60 mpg. The prius gets about 43 on the highway which is only slightyy worse then a 1978 honda civic or about the same as a diesel jetta. total marketing gimic
Yeah, I was only speculating when I wrote Toyota, I was not sure if they made a car that gets 60mpg, but I know that there are some cars that are that efficient, I know for example that VW makes one, though it's not the standard version of that model, you have to specifically order it.
Though it's probably not macho enough for Americans:
http://images.ciao.com/ide/images/products/normal/000/VW_Lupo_3L_TDI__185000.gif
But I would think that Toyota also has such a car, it's probably just not sold in the US.

[Bodhi]

I posted this as a reply to a blog that blames the government and bog oil for gas prices (he believes peak oil is a conspiracy theory created by the oil companies):

As the previous poster stated: "running out of oil" is NOT the issue. There will be a large amount of oil left in the earth for a very long time. This is due to the fact that it will become so energy intensive to retrieve that it will not be worth extraction. Why use two barrels of oil to extract one?

The inability to maintain the rate of extraction and production IS the issue. The easy oil is nearly gone. Why do you think we are drilling wells in some of the worst possible locations on the planet? Why do you think Canada's tar sands are being used in spite of the cost, intensive water usage and energy required to make it a viable fuel? Consider the economic dependency on growth and then factor in a decrease in oil production. The picture becomes ugly very quickly. This is the concern.

I hold no faith in society- especially free markets. The free maket will, in my opinion, be the very cause of this serious dillemma and make the worst possible outcome a reality.



The truth of this is simple. We are in for some very interesting changes. The more people attempt to hang on to "The American Dream" of cheap energy, the more suffering they will encounter.

You can continue to spew ignorance and paranoia concerning these issues- it will only feed the fire. Instead of your current path, why not study the fact. There is a great deal of research being done. Numbers, math- FACTS. These are available and open for interpretation. Although it is time consuming and anything but user friendly, the data is out there. Study the data and then post an argument. I feel certain your opinion will change and if not, I will listen to your argument. That is the beauty of science and facts.


One more thing...

I feel certain that along with this current situation Big Oil is in fact using it to their advantage and increasing profits.

I never thought I would quote Jimbo, but here is the truth:

http://americanrhetoric.com/speeches/jimmycartercrisisofconfidence.htm

Jimmy Carter desperately tried to prevent the situation we are now in. Listen to his voice when he states:

For the fifth time I would have described the urgency of the problem and laid out a series of legislative recommendations to the Congress. But as I was preparing to speak, I began to ask myself the same question that I now know has been troubling many of you: Why have we not been able to get together as a nation to resolve our serious energy problem?

It sounds just like a father getting on to his son. He tried to warn us and failed. Reagan came in with the promise of riches for all... He led the way and the country followed. Well now we are going to have to pay the piper.

In spite of all of this, I have a simple solution. Stop buying fuel. Stop thinking that cheap energy is part of Manifest Destiny. Stop believing that is your god given right to drive and waste as you please. Stop believing in the American Dream. That will significantly reduce your expenditures and makes whatever scheme they are using completely irrelevant. Buying a bicycle is a start. (but you have to use it)



Oh, I see- you want your fuel and you want it cheap. You want to waste at will and do it without a significant impact on your bank account. hmmmmm....... that is a problem.



Most people in this country are over stretched financially as it is. Now that fuel prices are beginning to rise (rise as in not yet close to topping out) they want someone to blame and hold accountable. May I suggest a mirror?

[Kami]

Does anyone else here like jerking off to the current oil prices? I find it immensely exciting to see the oil price go up live.

Stock prices are good too, but not as exciting in general.

[Bodhi]

The greater China's rate of growth, the faster the decline of western civilization. Rupert Murdoch should have never given them satellite TV. They saw the way we live and wanted in on the action...


I've always loved riding a bicycle. I would commute to work if I didn't fear for my life in Houston traffic. Apparently the mentally retarded are issued DL's in Texas. If we can kill em on death row, they can be granted the right to drive. Some kind of equality shit or something...
Anyway, I was riding my TREK 6000, but I got the hybrid bug and bought this:

http://www.hostmyfile.info/ufiles/684/mendota.jpg
http://www.hostmyfile.info/ufiles/684/IMG_1011.JPG
http://www.hostmyfile.info/ufiles/684/IMG_1012.JPG
GARY FISHER MENDOTA
Excellent acceleration and very comfortable, light and fun to jump curbs with.
I'm down to a tank of gas every 12-14 days by driving only to work and my son's daycare. The 6000 has a rack for my son's seat, so I use it for store runs and stock when I do drive...

I hope gasoline hits $10 a gallon.

[Kami]

Anyway, I was riding my TREK 6000, but I got the hybrid bug and bought this:
You should have bought this instead, it's more efficient.
http://i.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/05-18-07-power/Avtraz.jpg

[Bodhi]

You should have bought this instead, it's more efficient.
http://i.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/05-18-07-power/Avtraz.jpg

I hate full suspension and ended up determining that I didn't want a hybrid. I looked really hard at the 29'ers and then I rode the Mendota. The carbon fiber fork had just the right feel and the 700C wheels felt perfect. I already have a mountain bike so I went with the Mendota. Kona makes some really nice bikes though. Had there been a dealer in my area, the Dr. Dew was definitely a candidate.