'New era of discord for Russia and the West'

[Ferrus]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6717927.stm

Another Bush policy failure?

[s'box]

Another bush policy success

Cant win a war youre not fighting you know

[Hermione]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6717927.stm

Another Bush policy failure?

And who didn't see this coming?

More cowboy theatrics, beget more and more and more rodeo clowns.

I saw this story , of sorts, on the telly (hhhaaa ha) this morning. Putin's wife , or I presume that was who she was, looks like she might just could beat the shit out of him. And anyone could beat the shit out of 'W'.

lAnother , oh you've got a pee pee? Me, too! I'll show you mine, if ..... hey, let's go pee in this corner over here, blah , blah, blah. Those boys need to go get laid proper, or take a nap, or something. Nukular missiles are now going to make my life miserable again as we will be listening to his mispronunciation on a daily basis. I had SO hoped we could at least end THAT war. You know, his war on words.

[Metamorphosis]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6717927.stm

Another Bush policy failure?

So...

Putin aims missiles at Europe because the U.S. created an anti-missile defense system...and that is Bush's fault...interesting.

Putin has done a very good job over the past decade or so making himself the dictator of Russia. This isn't surprising at all.

[C.J.Woolf]

Another bush policy success

Cant win a war youre not fighting you know
Are you saying Bush wants to "finish" the Cold War the way he "finished" the war with Saddam Hussein?

[JAVO]

Russia's new weapons developments were already in the works. As far as new targets in Europe? Meh, just updating their targeting strategy, which they would've done anyway.

Putin is just making a big deal about it by using rhetoric to shake a stick at the US as retaliation for the missile defense system, which doesn't sit well with Russian military leaders.

The Cold War never ended, it just got to the point where everyone mostly ignored it for about 13 years.

[garak]

Putin has done a very good job over the past decade or so making himself the dictator of Russia.

As has Bush. (of America, that is)

[SensEye]

I can't really see Putin's logic here. The US is developing an anti-missle system for eastern Europe so Russia will aim missles at Europe thereby justifying an anti-missle system?*



*So to speak, I'm sure the thing will be a collosal waste of money that wouldn't manage to stop much if it was ever needed, but that's not the point anyhow.

[C.J.Woolf]

Russia has been a Great Power since the time of Peter the Great 300 years ago. Russia expects to be taken seriously and it gets cranky when it isn't. Bush doesn't take anyone seriously outside of his small clique.

I expect that the present time is like the aftermath of other national humiliations like the Crimean War, the Russo-Japanese War, and the loss of the empire after the October Revolution. Russia has always worked hard to recover its national power and it will come back again. We'd best be ready for it.

[booyalab]

The Cold War never ended, it just got to the point where everyone mostly ignored it for about 13 years.

:wtf: If neither participant cares, then it's not a cold war.

[Larkin]

The most effective weapon in the cold war turned out to be Beatles, Blue Jeans and Coke.

While I am no great fan of Putin, I believe the Russian republic would much prefer to be in the European American sphere than being subject to the very powerful Chinese that the share one of the longest and historically contested borders in the world, and yet the Bush Administration seeks to alienate them.

From what I can see, armed isolation hasn?t worked in the past. The Soviet Union fell because of inefficiency and finally an inability to provide its population with the goods and services that they wanted.

China is now The US's largest trading partner and owner of the largest US debt.
What happened to the policy of isolation? I guess US interests are less strategic and more about the buck.

The really sad part about this is it appears to be a push for global re-armament on the part of the US. It is as if they long for the darkest days of the cold war.

I can hear a few of you saying, Yeah! What about Iran trying to make a bomb.

Apparently the US felt it important to make sure Pakistan got the bomb, why I have no idea, but this is potentially an unstable government that could go Islamist.

Israel has, who knows how many bombs for their own protection and lately have broadened that definition.

US forces in Iraq are at Iran?s western border and US forces in Afghanistan on Iran?s north eastern border.

If I was Iran, I would consider arming myself. People forget that when Saddam was a US client, The US armed him in a terrible war against Iran resulting with more than a million dead. That was in the 80?s

The proposal for a missile defense system using missiles to shoot down missiles is suspect from the very beginning. The technology has yet to prove it?s self. According to intelligence, a suite case bomb is the most likely mode. Other than the fact that the Eastern European Republics are happy to take US dollars, why Eastern Europe? Why not in the US? The final reason is that an SDI system can be converted almost over night to an offensive missile system. For this reason alone, I could see why the Russians might be disturbed.

Could there really be a longing for the cold war?

From the early 50s through the 80s the US produced tens of thousands of missiles many with multiple war heads all of them went in to the dust bin. I am very grateful for that, but must it be done all over again? During that time everyone lived under the shadow of death.

If the US engages in this push this will accelerate similar systems world wide in countries like China, India, Indonesia and Iran. Many other countries will become engaged in producing components and sharing technology producing a bazaar and unpredictable inter-relationships. Is this what you want?

Metamorphosis, your avatar is a relic of the cold war. I think that your point of view will probably win out in the end so there isnt much of a point flaming me.
Lets talk in 12 years if either one of us are alive.

[Kami]

Another Bush policy failure?
Where do you see a failure?
I see a successful expansion of US military into Eastern Europe, and pathetic Russia's attempts to reply to this with empty threats.
Do you see something else? If so, let me know.


Another , oh you've got a pee pee? Me, too
The nuclear club is a little more than just about prestige and status, it is also about actual power as well. You know the nuclear pee-pee can hurt a lot, although most of the guys will (hopefully?) not be using in any near future against one another.


I believe the Russian republic would much prefer to be in the European American sphere than being subject to the very powerful Chinese.
And why would you think that? I'm all for alliance with China. At the very least, the increasing flow of illigal Chinese immigrants might prevent Russia's demographic collapse.

[Larkin]

here's a quick one.

Could it be that Russia could acually represent the future of EU in so far as cheaper labor and vast resources.

Russia could play a role in Europe that China plays in US wealth.

After all, it has made China wealthy.

Worried about the Dollar and seeing this posibility, the US might be trying to drive a wedge between Russia and Europe with the help of the post soviet satelites.

The news in the US seldom has anything good to say about Europe

[Kami]

the US might be trying to drive a wedge between Russia and Europe with the help of the post soviet satelites.
The US obviously is trying to fuck up Russia's relations with everyone and Europe especially, but I wouldn't rush to explain why exactly this is so. Actually it is somewhat a mistery to me.
Maybe the United States as a country really feels like the Cold War was unfinished?
Maybe the final part of the Dulles' Plan of 1948 which called for maximum limitation of Moscow's sphere of influence disregarding of Moscow's ideology, still awaits implementation?

In either case, Putin seems more than happy to make himself a public enemy of the US, and his attempts to maintain friendly relations with EU suffer as a result.

[ajblaise]

The US obviously is trying to fuck up Russia's relations with everyone and Europe especially, but I wouldn't rush to explain why exactly this is so.


maybe because when we see russia playing war games with china we see that as threatening. i know i don't want a russia/china tag team match against us. though it is probably more about economics.

[Metamorphosis]

China is now The US's largest trading partner and owner of the largest US debt.
What happened to the policy of isolation? I guess US interests are less strategic and more about the buck.

The buck is strategic. Without economic power, you can't have military power. Also, thanks to globalization, isolation would be instant death for the American economy. It isn't possible to be the hegemon and not protect your interests. I don't know about you, but I would prefer the U.S. over China as far as superpowers go. Also, debt is essentially useless when it comes to the superpower scale. No one really bothers to collect it.


The really sad part about this is it appears to be a push for global re-armament on the part of the US. It is as if they long for the darkest days of the cold war.

I understand what you are saying here, but placing missile defense systems is a far cry from reawakening the Cold War. Secondly, the U.S. has nothing to gain from global re-armament since their military is vastly superior (technologically & fiscally) to any other in the world.



If I was Iran, I would consider arming myself. People forget that when Saddam was a US client, The US armed him in a terrible war against Iran resulting with more than a million dead. That was in the 80?s

True. They also armed Afghanistan, fucked up their chance to eliminate Castro, and indirectly lead to the election of Salvadore Allende. Whoops.


The proposal for a missile defense system using missiles to shoot down missiles is suspect from the very beginning. The technology has yet to prove it?s self. According to intelligence, a suite case bomb is the most likely mode. Other than the fact that the Eastern European Republics are happy to take US dollars, why Eastern Europe? Why not in the US? The final reason is that an SDI system can be converted almost over night to an offensive missile system. For this reason alone, I could see why the Russians might be disturbed.

Very true that even the Patriot Missile system has questionable success. The fact is, though, nothing else has any better success and it's a ridiculous idea to simply let missiles rain down on you. As far as using them as an offensive weapon, possibly true (I don't know, but I'll take your word for it), but totally unnecessary. I'm sure we could hit them from a sub off of the coast or with ballistic missiles launched from other countries (Germany, Turkey, U.S., etc.) much easier.


Could there really be a longing for the cold war?

Doubtful. First of all, we would have very little to gain from it. Secondly, the Republican party has lost tons of public support simply over the War in Iraq and it is highly unlikely that it would risk losing more by engaging Russia. There's a reason why they tend to ignore Venezuela, Iran, and North Korea.


From the early 50s through the 80s the US produced tens of thousands of missiles many with multiple war heads all of them went in to the dust bin. I am very grateful for that, but must it be done all over again? During that time everyone lived under the shadow of death.

Everyone still does. We are just too naive and uninterested to care.


If the US engages in this push this will accelerate similar systems world wide in countries like China, India, Indonesia and Iran. Many other countries will become engaged in producing components and sharing technology producing a bazaar and unpredictable inter-relationships. Is this what you want?

In essence, this already happens.


Metamorphosis, your avatar is a relic of the cold war. I think that your point of view will probably win out in the end so there isnt much of a point flaming me.
Lets talk in 12 years if either one of us are alive.

I know. I thought it was funny though, like the phrase "preemptive counter-attack". Very likely, my point of view will win out in the end, as I am of the "Realist" school of thought (in the political science sense). However, I have no interest in flaming you. Although it seems like I am steadfast in my beliefs, it is simply because I believe they are true. I guarantee, though, that I honestly give every opinion serious thought. I'm not simply dismissing your opinions because mine our different.

P.S. It may not take 12 years. The Mayans predicted 2012. :grin:

[Larkin]

TO METO,
i aint even going to try to answer you. you are so sure of the situation and regretably it's probably going to go ur way so my point of view doesnt even count.. good luck on your policy of american surpremacy.

[Hermione]

This is a really good thread , I just can't add anything as I'm too busy shaking my head . Remembering my high school government teacher said, basically to me and a few others, you idealistic cynics are going to be sorry some day. This will breed apathy in your generation. What fuckin ever. Someone please pass me a bowl.

[Kami]

idealistic cynics
I've never heard that before - always thought this is oxymoronic.

[omnirook]

A few years back, they tried a challenge on Jeopardy, "Now that the former Soviet Union has lost 14 of its constituent republics, this country is now the largest in the world." The solution, of course, was "What is Russia?" Russia is - minus lands almost equal to Europe in size - still the world's largest country.

Point? Resources. I don't give a damn about here and now or the past - Russia represents the world's largest stockpile of resources under a single flag. Sooner or later, that's going to mean a great deal. If I were a neocon imperialist, I'd be "Fuck Europe! All it has is culture - Russia has that and everything else on top of that." China and Russia together would be - unstoppable. If the US and its European allies let Russia go, then we deserve just what we get. Bush's tounge should be gliding up and down Putin's crack - but he's making trouble. Me - the agnostic - I'm at the point where I want to cry out, "God help us! When will this Bush/neocon nightmare end?!"

[Kami]

"Now that the former Soviet Union has lost 14 of its constituent republics, this country is now the largest in the world." The solution, of course, was "What is Russia?"
If I didn't know that America was full of retards just like Russia, I'd try to kill the person who came up with that question. :)


China and Russia together would be - unstoppable.
Sounds good, but I don't know how you came to this conclusion.

[nom4d]

As much as it seems to be pretty improtant, I think this is just a media led propoganda field day.

We have had, in my short lifetime: the war on drugs, the war against bin Laden, the war against al Qaeda, the war on Saddam, the war in Iraq, the problems with N. Korea, the war between Israel and Iran, the war that might happen in Iran, and now we have the new Cold War with Russia.

At this point the cost of war is so high and the chances of success so low that most are now using war to promote nationalism, gain recognition, and secure power in their own country. It could well be a move by Putin to raise national pride and dump more money into the military that is a huge employer in Russia in an effort to improve the economy.

How many big stories haven't been covered in the last 6 years due to the war on Terror? How much reliable information do we actually get about the world when the most important thing for ratings is keeping the boogey man in the collective forefront of the minds of the viewers so that every time we turn on the TV we hear about the latest fumble in the war, the new outraging policy, the newest attack that cost American lives or the newest threat to our crumbling democracy?

[omnirook]

If I didn't know that America was full of retards just like Russia, I'd try to kill the person who came up with that question. :)


Sounds good, but I don't know how you came to this conclusion.

"Russia" and "Soviet Union" were always synonymous in the United States. Only if one were being very formal was one careful about the distinction. "Soviets"/"Russians" = the same thing in the American mind. The Commonwealth of Independent States replaced the Soviet Union, and 14 countries besides Russia were born. Minus those 14 countries, Russia remains the world's largest country, almost twice the size of the second largest country, Canada. The other 14 countries combined are about the same size as Europe (minus the portion of Russia that is in Europe, of course).

China is the emerging superpower. China will eclipse the United States, and that is quite that. Russia's best bet would be to become friendlier w/the Chinese. Say what you want about the Chinese, their history of fucking allies is not as viscious as America's. Even the Mongols were gentler in their treatment of conquered peoples (so long as the people accepted having been conquered).

[Kami]

Only if one were being very formal was one careful about the distinction. "Soviets"/"Russians" = the same thing in the American mind.
The problem is that this is not a minor technical mistake, in fact it is not a mistake at all - it is a deliberate effort to equate two entities that have nothing to do with each other.
Soviet Union did not lose 14 of its republics, it lost all 15 and ceased to exist. In fact, it was Russia's declaration of independence from USSR (ever heard that Russia celebrates independence day? Guess from whom?) which triggered the collapse of the Union.
AFAIK 10 republics out of 15 formally gained independence from USSR after Russia. Kazakhstan was the last to declare independence, I believe.
Russia had separate government and parliament when it was part of the USSR, in fact it even had it's own president - separate from that of the USSR.
I would consider this a mistake if I saw it done once or twice, but such universal American refusal to acknowlege a historical fact really pisses me off.

Sometimes when I hear Americans refer to Soviet Union as Russia, I start referring to United States as California.


China will eclipse the United States, and that is quite that.
How the heck do you know, seriously? :) Do you have one of those magical balls that tells you the future? How do you know that Chinese GDP growth won't drop to something like 1% in near future?
I don't mean to contradict you, this may be likely to happen - but don't speak of it with such certainty as if it already happened.

And that's only China. Russia is still far behind. And besides Russia and small SCO countries, China doesn't really have any potential allies. United States does. To say that Russia+China will be unstoppable means to ignore the fact that EU, Japan, South America, Much of Africa, Middle East, and Oceania is quite firmly in a the opposing national bloc. China alone, or with Russia, won't win a war against them all.

[Metamorphosis]

TO METO,
i aint even going to try to answer you. you are so sure of the situation and regretably it's probably going to go ur way so my point of view doesnt even count.. good luck on your policy of american surpremacy.

I may have misunderstood this, but it strikes me as a very concealed insult on my beliefs that leaves no room for a good answer...
as in... "you're so hardheaded I won't argue with you"
If you do feel that way, I'm sorry, but it's false. If I'm misunderstanding you, then sorry.

but that's your perogative

And yes, I do like having American supremacy, despite the fact that it seems to have a bad connotation.

[omnirook]

The problem is that this is not a minor technical mistake, in fact it is not a mistake at all - it is a deliberate effort to equate two entities that have nothing to do with each other.
Soviet Union did not lose 14 of its republics, it lost all 15 and ceased to exist. In fact, it was Russia's declaration of independence from USSR (ever heard that Russia celebrates independence day? Guess from whom?) which triggered the collapse of the Union.
AFAIK 10 republics out of 15 formally gained independence from USSR after Russia. Kazakhstan was the last to declare independence, I believe.
Russia had separate government and parliament when it was part of the USSR, in fact it even had it's own president - separate from that of the USSR.
I would consider this a mistake if I saw it done once or twice, but such universal American refusal to acknowlege a historical fact really pisses me off.

Sometimes when I hear Americans refer to Soviet Union as Russia, I start referring to United States as California.


How the heck do you know, seriously? :) Do you have one of those magical balls that tells you the future? How do you know that Chinese GDP growth won't drop to something like 1% in near future?
I don't mean to contradict you, this may be likely to happen - but don't speak of it with such certainty as if it already happened.

And that's only China. Russia is still far behind. And besides Russia and small SCO countries, China doesn't really have any potential allies. United States does. To say that Russia+China will be unstoppable means to ignore the fact that EU, Japan, South America, Much of Africa, Middle East, and Oceania is quite firmly in a the opposing national bloc. China alone, or with Russia, won't win a war against them all.

Well, I can't prove that I myself was aware that the SU collapsed after Russia withdrew its membership (w/its already sitting separate president, Yeltsin getting the SU's vacated UN seat); after all, maybe I just looked that up. But not all Americans are ignorant, please. The only bit of "proof" that I can offer up in my own defense is that I am somewhat more aware of Russian history than most Americans because my mate is Russian (he is involved w/the Romanov Family Association, so he's quite well informed about Russia, even if you don't care for the monarchist camp and their politics).

Do I know for sure that China will eclipse the US in the next several decades? No. Do I believe that? Yes. Africa and South America despise the United States. Even if they were to make an overnight recovery, they would not side w/the US - and, minus an overnight recovery, they will remain on the sidelines when it comes to the US/China showdown. The EU is economically important, yes, but militarily insignificant, not because they lack military means but because they lack the will to fight (after World War II, can you blame them?) And - the Europeans are pretty much fed up w/the US and its shit, especially after nearly a decade of the particular piece of shit that is sitting in the Oval Office. If I were Gordon Brown, I'd be winking and blowing kisses at China, reminding the Chinese that "We gave back Hong Kong w/o a hitch, glitch, or even a sad face!"

But now we're beginning to paint Putin as a madman in the US press. He's crazy; he's dangerous; he needs to be contained. Why not? We have to sell a few more missiles to the US taxpayer and justify the militarization of outer space. Russia has always had nuts in power, so why should Putin be any different? The fact that he has operated just like an American businessman is - ignored.

[johnjuan]

Will logic ever rule. WTF.
:banghead:

[omnirook]

Will logic ever rule. WTF.
:banghead:

Explain yourself. Otherwise, you wasted a post - and our time.

[Kami]

Well, I can't prove that I myself was aware that the SU collapsed after Russia withdrew its membership (w/its already sitting separate president, Yeltsin getting the SU's vacated UN seat); after all, maybe I just looked that up.
You don't need to prove that - after all it was not you who came up with that Jeopardy question - was it?
But don't deny that it is the illusion of most Americans that the collapse of the Soviet Union was just Russia decreasing in size.


Africa and South America despise the United States.
Oh yeah sure, like those bunch of Somalis who were crushed recently and that pathetic fool Chavez, half of who's economy relies on trade with US.
Trust me, South America was and always will remain in US sphere of influence.
If anything, SA will stand by US side. And EU too. Don't fool yourself into thinking they've got independent foreign policy just because some of them didn't send troops to Iraq. Remember that far less countries sent troops to Vietnam - and were still close US allies at the same time.

In the worst case, the US will simply threaten to "bomb them to stone age" like it did with Pakistan. And it worked, didn't it?

[omnirook]

You don't need to prove that - after all it was not you who came up with that Jeopardy question - was it?
But don't deny that it is the illusion of most Americans that the collapse of the Soviet Union was just Russia decreasing in size.


Oh yeah sure, like those bunch of Somalis who were crushed recently and that pathetic fool Chavez, half of who's economy relies on trade with US.
Trust me, South America was and always will remain in US sphere of influence.
If anything, SA will stand by US side. And EU too. Don't fool yourself into thinking they've got independent foreign policy just because some of them didn't send troops to Iraq. Remember that far less countries sent troops to Vietnam - and were still close US allies at the same time.

I agree. My point is this - the EU and SA will stay by the US as long as the US is the top dog. If the US slips - and it seems to have both feet on banana peels at the moment - they will abandon the US w/o a look back. You are aware that the Pig has been funding his war in Iraq by borrowing 2 billion dollars PER DAY from the Chinese and India? At this point, to protect his precious tax cut for trillionaires, Bush would have to blow the Chinese president on television if China's president insisted. Between them, China and India OWN the Bush Administration. If you were in the US, particularly in a major US city, you would have noticed the massive and I mean MASSIVE influx of Indians over the last 8 years. The Bush Administration has been giving away visas to Indians like candy - hundreds of thousands have come over and moved in and set up shop. I don't blame them - our government allowed it as a way to keep India loaning it the money that it needed. Point is, so many middle and upper class Indians have come to the US in the last decade that now the US has to cater to them in advertizing and in casting television shows. Hispanics, who greatly outnumber Indians, get no such treatment - you don't see hispanics increasing on tv in the way that Indians have been increasing. Why? The Indians who have come over under Bush are not the poor, the unwashed, the illiterate. It's the upper crust that has flooded in, and they did not start on the bottom mopping floors.

EDIT: This is NOT meant as India-bashing. I'm just noting that the conditions for the most recent arrivals have been much different than the conditions for earlier arrivals - and for arrivals from all other places period. If there is fault in what has happened, the fault belongs to the United States.

[Kami]

If you were in the US, particularly in a major US city, you would have noticed the massive and I mean MASSIVE influx of Indians over the last 8 years.
I AM in US, and I do actually see (out of my window, every minute) lots and lots of Indians. :)
Oh by the way, India may also count as US ally. India has one of the highest percentages of people who support Bush administration.

[omnirook]

I AM in US, and I do actually see (out of my window, every minute) lots and lots of Indians. :)
Oh by the way, India may also count as US ally. India has one of the highest percentages of people who support Bush administration.

I don't blame them! The Bush Administration has been a boon to India. The greatest strides out of poverty have been made w/Bush in office.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that you had come to the US. Welcome! :grin:

[Kami]

Well, if I was actually in Russia or in Azerbaijan, chances are I wouldn't be chatting in english on an english-speaking forum :)

Most people on the internet who talk in english and claim they are in Russia, actually live in United States (or UK or Commonwealth).

[wildcat]

Well, if I was actually in Russia or in Azerbaijan, chances are I wouldn't be chatting in english on an english-speaking forum :)

Most people on the internet who talk in english and claim they are in Russia, actually live in United States (or UK or Commonwealth).
Yes and most of them are in the spy department.

[Larkin]

Meta, ur right, the important thing is to beable to exchange points of view and that is what makes forums like this valuable.

I was in Berlin in December of 1989.
I knew that this thrilling event, the fall of the Berlin Wall, was of great significance but at the time I didnt have any idea how profoundly this would effect the world and the country I live in today.

The Soviet Union calapsed and suddenly the world was left with one super power. Curiously there was no one more surprised about the sudden fall of the Soviet Union that the US intelligence comunity... Go figure!

It was the fall of the "Iron Curtain" and not "9-11" that gave birth to the Neocon's Project for the New American Century. (look it up)
This is a policy of unilateralisum on the part of the US. It is a policy of world dominance on the part of US corporate interests. As the apparent victors of the 50 year long cold war, I suppose it makes perfect sence to exploit the oppertunities this situation presented.

I think it is a short sighted and serious mistake. The US had many oppertunities for a mulitlateral global initiative, especially just after 9-11, but it chose to go it alone and fill the role of global policeman alienating many valuable friends.

Placing our self at the top with a policy of "it's our way or the highway", or " you are with us or you are with the terrorists" is not constructive. (Remember the French fry thing against France)

Just yesterday, I heard reps in the house on C-span claim that, "We are at war with all of Islam."
The news media is cool and unreceptive to the European Union. Latin America is going it's own way, Russia(Putin), has been intagonized by the posibility of re-armament and finally, It is not going to be very long at all before China begins to ascert herself.
How much more explosive can the situation be made?

Put simply, When you are on top, there is only one way and that's down.
A "go it alone policy" is very dangerous and if mishandled, it could spell the end of the New American Century.