New England vote to join European Union

[Larkin]

It seems like all the red states hate us anyway. they call us imoral elites. They might be happy if we just left. Move the capital to Dallas.

[Lateralus]

I don't hate New England, just Boston. :P

[C.J.Woolf]

Larkin, you want to read this:

http://www.fuckthesouth.com

[Zergling]

No need to leave the U.S., lets just conquer Canada. That should add a good amount of liberalish people.

[starla]

I don't hate New England, just Boston. :P

Die!

[Hermione]

Larkin, you want to read this:

http://www.fuckthesouth.com

Thank you, c.j., I still love you. I will go back and really read this , after the happy hour begins. I know it's not even Friday, but it is a pseudo-Friday, end of the school year type thing. cheers.

[attila_the_hunny]

It seems like all the red states hate us anyway. they call us imoral elites. They might be happy if we just left. Move the capital to Dallas.

Well, NH should be evicted from NE since it goes red occasionally.

[Dom]

New england, and the west coast, ceed to form a new nation with canada and apply to join the EU or jsut stay the Unitied States of Canada (actually isn't the queen still head of state of canada?) The Unitied Kingdom of Canada then... ;)

The rest can then be renamed Jesusland...

;)

Actually it would help me alot if the whole US would just get real and join the EU.... You wouldn't mind would you? It really would make my life a lot easier....

[earwax]

Move the capital to Dallas.
No! You are not moving all those whackos down here! We have more than our fair share as it is.

Didn't Texas reserve the right to secede from the union?

[omnirook]

Larkin, you want to read this:

http://www.fuckthesouth.com

I enjoyed that - but, then, I'm the guy who said that he could not live anywhere but the northeast. Actually, I'm the guy who said that he could not live further than 100 miles from Columbus Circle.

Sure, sure - trees and greenery and deer hopping out in front of your car are nice - for a visit, say a pic-nic. But I'm not sleeping out in the woods! Hunting and fishing and camping and hiking and nature walks and all that other - fun - well, you can have it; I won't stop you. But get it out of your head that I might enjoy it! I wouldn't. If I'm not in Manhattan, oh, 6 days of the week, I get hives.

[nfinityi]

Actually it would help me alot if the whole US would just get real and join the EU.... You wouldn't mind would you? It really would make my life a lot easier....
Sorry to go all geeky and serious, but oddly enough, wouldn't each state have to join on its own? We're the United States. Technically, we're a union of fifty countries, each of which has extremely limited autonomy.

[Lateralus]

Sorry to go all geeky and serious, but oddly enough, wouldn't each state have to join on its own. We're the United States. Technically, we're a union of fifty countries, each of which has extremely limited autonomy.
Those days are long since passed. Lincoln completely squashed any idea of state autonomy.

[C.J.Woolf]

Those days are long since passed. Lincoln completely squashed any idea of state autonomy.
True. Besides, under the Constitution only the federal government can make treaties.

[nfinityi]

Hmm. Well either way, as much as people like to joke about it, myself included, I really do get a feeling that sooner or later this is all going to come to a head. There just needs to be a trigger issue for it.

[starla]

If the South tried to secede again, would the north stop them this time? I'd just pack up, move back north, and celebrate.

[nfinityi]

If the South tried to secede again, would the north stop them this time? I'd just pack up, move back north, and celebrate.
Something tells me it would be the North seceding, as we're politically in the minority. The country is vastly Red.

[Lateralus]

I don't believe the country is vastly red. I think the country has been vastly fooled into thinking they're red.

[C.J.Woolf]

The country is vastly Red.
Time is against the Republicans. Their Devil's bargain called the Southern Strategy is becoming a liability. Not all Republicans are bigots, but nearly all bigots are Republicans. The bigot base is alienating non-white people, whose proportional numbers are growing, and young people, who are more tolerant than their elders.

The last two Presidential elections were decided by a single state. Before that, Clinton beat them twice. That's quite a change from the Reagan/Bush I landslides.

I hope the bigots have marginalized themselves politically. The time may come when Democrats can truly say "Fuck the South" and win elections.

[rek]

If the South tried to secede again, would the north stop them this time? I'd just pack up, move back north, and celebrate.

Yes they most certainly would try to stop them. The civil war was all about centralized power, power that its not easy for people to take back. The north claims moral superiority over the south, just like the US claims it over the middle east, and because of that they cannot help but feel it necessary to dominate those they view as inferior. It is unacceptable to the average person to accept other peoples right to be different. If you are prolife then everyone must be, if you are prochoice then everyone must be. If you are against gay marriage everyone has to be. Much of both the north and south have this problem.

The desire for power and feelings of moral superiority are the main (only?) causes of major conflicts in the world (fights over religion fall under moral superiority while $ obviously falls under power).

The idea of states being separate so that many interests could be represented and all could live in peace was lost a long time ago (started with lincoln, as previously pointed out by someone). It's much easier to simply claim good and evil, or smart and stupid, than it is to be tolerant of other peoples decisions.

Remember after 9/11 when everyone used to wonder why those people hated us so much? How long did that last before it became "Well, they are evil, they are wrong, we are right and we are good"? Everyone has an opinion, and that's fine, but it's part of human nature for the vast majority of people to believe their opinion is the correct one for everyone and that they somehow have god given authority to impose it on the unwilling.

This is precisely why the US was originally supposed to separate itself from the politics of Europe. We were going to live in peace, on our own, we would defend our freedom to our deathbed but we would not go abroad looking for more power. We would lead the world not through force but through good example. People would follow us not because we asked them to but because of our success on our own. We would encourage trade and friendship with everyone but force alliances or wars on no one. That's why we should be so opposed to things like the UN, such european endeavors used to be very foreign to us.

If seperating north and south, or any other state lines, is what it takes for a portion of the world to reclaim that freedom... I say we do it...

A time when our military is already so vastly over extended abroad is probably a good time too.

[starla]

blah blah blah

You put way to much thought into answering a non-serious question. The south would lose too much by seceding from the rest of the union for them to even consider it. The whole country at this point is completely interdependent. People move around so much from state to state nowadays, a lot of the people that live in the south are from other parts of the country anyway.

[rek]

You put way to much thought into answering a non-serious question.

Agreed, I took your non-serious question and knowing full well I was going way beyond what you meant I used it to lead into my response to this thread in general.

[outmywindow]

Am I the only one here who dislikes all this talk of making vast generalizations based solely on one of two alternatives? Political ideology isn't binary, it's a continuum. Oh wait, we have a two-party system. Well fuck, carry on then... <_<

This is why I hate election years -- I've yet to actually vote for a candidate I agree with. Instead, I'm just voting against the other guy, and usually only by a small percentage. I seriously think I'd just have to move to some third country if the US were to split up based on a political axis since I'd be unhappy in either the red or blue US. Where would I go? Hell, I don't know -- every country seems a bit loopy to me. I'll just start a republic on the moon.

[rek]

Something tells me it would be the North seceding, as we're politically in the minority. The country is vastly Red.


I don't believe the country is vastly red. I think the country has been vastly fooled into thinking they're red.

The majority of the country cannot be classified into a group of red, blue, or even purple. It's common to say most the country is "in between" but I believe that to be very wrong.

A country is no more than a group of people who by chance happened to be born in a certain location, were raised under conditions which may or may not have been more similar to each other than to people in other countries, and are constantly encouraged to be part of a group they feel no need nor desire to be a part of.

Splitting the world into countries, states, unions, races, sexes, or any other group simply doesn't make sense. The world is no more than a bunch of individual people, viewing it any other way leads to conflict, wars, racism, and other problems. The only valid groupings of people which can ever be made are specific and temporary, they require the ability for "members" to leave and join easily while staying updated on certain issues to ensure they still belong.

Who do you know who would rather be represented by a group than by themselves? Who wants to be judged by Bush's actions and values instead of by their own (even if they mostly agree)? [to answer my own questions: stupid people who can't think for themselves - not exactly who you want running anything]

That's why government doesn't "work", by it's very definition it cannot represent the people. By the people for the people is a joke, at least with large populations. People can only be fully represented by themselves. Government should stick to things everyone agrees on (very little).

[Larkin]

I don't believe the country is vastly red. I think the country has been vastly fooled into thinking they're red.

I agree Lateralus, There reds and blues in every state, but concerning the states that went red in the last election, The red states that went to Bush represented and decided the election was 17% of the population.

Maine and New Hampshire do periodically go red, but it is based usually on individual rights or defence against an intrusive federal government. what i would call basic consevative principles.

[Nighthawk]

No! You are not moving all those whackos down here! We have more than our fair share as it is.

Didn't Texas reserve the right to secede from the union?


I second that ... Dallas is already strange enough without all the lawbreakers ... er, I mean lawmakers ... living here.

[attila_the_hunny]

I enjoyed that - but, then, I'm the guy who said that he could not live anywhere but the northeast. Actually, I'm the guy who said that he could not live further than 100 miles from Columbus Circle.


I'm the same way...but only in the US. I've been down the east coast and now in TX and my favorite places that I've lived in are all in the northeast.

[Kami]

Why hate Republicans? Just because they started some wars? Hay, you know what, I can name quite a few Democrats who started wars too..
Just because the Republicans are socially conservative? And what's wrong with that? Well yes, sometimes SCs come up with the world's stupidest shit (like this (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/11/teen.sex.case.ap/index.html), and this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBjr7EU52hE)), but in general, I don't think anything of what they do really affects your personal life that much. And to be honest, the Democrats (judging at least be their major representatives - Obama and Hillary) are not that libertarian either, they're all on the line within certain limits.
I wouldn't ever piss myself off because the majority of the country voted Red or Blue, who cares anyway? And by all parameters the republicans will probably not last till after 2008 prez-election, so if you're a hardcore Democrat partisan, enjoy yourself.

[Lateralus]

Why hate Republicans? Just because they started some wars? Hay, you know what, I can name quite a few Democrats who started wars too..
If I had to guess, I'd say most people on this forum are sick of both parties. In fact, I don't recall ever seeing a forum member stick up for either party (then again, maybe I'm blind).

[Kami]

If I had to guess, I'd say most people on this forum are sick of both parties.
Then why are they (even jokingly) talking about separating blue states from the red, just because in the last election they voted blue or red?

[bonsai]

I'm in, where's my ballot?

[HilbertSpace]

Didn't Texas reserve the right to secede from the union?

I think that's an urban legend (http://www.snopes.com/history/american/texas.asp).

[booyalab]

Then why are they (even jokingly) talking about separating blue states from the red, just because in the last election they voted blue or red?

psst, Lateralus doesn't know he's way more "blue" than "red" either.

[hereandnow]

I think that's an urban legend (http://www.snopes.com/history/american/texas.asp).

Indeed. As is much of political "fact."

[Larkin]

Well, i think it would be a fine idea. Maybe we can talk New York State into coming with us. Isnt that where Texas keeps all its money?

[Lateralus]

Then why are they (even jokingly) talking about separating blue states from the red, just because in the last election they voted blue or red?
Because people are frustrated with this particular president. He intentionally divides and creates a hostile environment (you're either with us or against us). There is no middle ground because he doesn't allow it. He represents the "red".


psst, Lateralus doesn't know he's way more "blue" than "red" either.
booyalab, both parties are a joke. I don't consider myself blue or red because those are ridiculous designations used to divide people. Look at this thread, for example. In my experience, when I have spoken to almost anyone on a political issue, we have far more in common than not. Americans are not nearly as divided on most issues as the media and our government would lead us to believe. It's just easier to control a divided people.

Hmmm, I'm curious why hereandnow edited my post. Was it offensive? Was it not offensive enough? Did I have a spelling error?

[demagogic_schizoid]

Sorry to be the voice of reason, but the EU wouldn't have you. If New England joined the EU, you'd just be equally as ostracised for being "far right" as you are in America for being "far left". Germany, France and Spain would never accept these Anglo-Saxon impostors - they only just tolerate Britain.

[Kami]

If New England joined the EU, you'd just be equally as ostracised for being "far right" as you are in America for being "far left".
Nah, Europe has a fair share of "far-righters". Poland, Romania, Bulgaria - mostly the former Eastern Bloc countries. They'll be New England's closest friends.

[Wolf]

I still think they cut up the US all wrong. North American should have been North, South, and West, with the possible exception of Quebec, which should be Frannce.

New England and most of the area east of the Mississippi river, and the portion of Canada due north of that should be one country.
The remainder east of the river, roughly divided from the north at the Mason-Dixon line, should be one country.
The remainder should be one country, probably including most of Mexico.

[demagogic_schizoid]

I still think they cut up the US all wrong. North American should have been North, South, and West, with the possible exception of Quebec, which should be Frannce.

New England and most of the area east of the Mississippi river, and the portion of Canada due north of that should be one country.
The remainder east of the river, roughly divided from the north at the Mason-Dixon line, should be one country.
The remainder should be one country, probably including most of Mexico.

I had real fun on Paint arbitrarily dividing your country ('s) into various Balkanised little states. I made them weaker than your plan though. I can't see "Portegon" being a superpower.

If only...<wistful>

[sorabji_66]

No need to leave the U.S., lets just conquer Canada. That should add a good amount of liberalish people.



not really. Canada will be very disappointing to you outside Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver.

can't even begin to tell you how disappointing...

[Larkin]

Sorry to be the voice of reason, but the EU wouldn't have you. If New England joined the EU, you'd just be equally as ostracised for being "far right" as you are in America for being "far left". Germany, France and Spain would never accept these Anglo-Saxon impostors - they only just tolerate Britain.


I like that and I think you are probably right.

Kami says

Nah, Europe has a fair share of "far-righters". Poland, Romania, Bulgaria - mostly the former Eastern Bloc countries. They'll be New England's closest friends.

Naw, they pal around because the US keeps slipping them money for special favors. you kno what i mean?

[Wolf]

not really. Canada will be very disappointing to you outside Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver.

can't even begin to tell you how disappointing...
And yet, in my opinion, those are the parts of Canada I would be happy to nuke and forget about. It's the rest of this country that is worth something...

I'd love to live here, if it wasn't for backward gun laws and the fact it's a foreign country.

[Oso Mocoso]

I had real fun on Paint arbitrarily dividing your country ('s) into various Balkanised little states. I made them weaker than your plan though. I can't see "Portegon" being a superpower.

If only...<wistful>

You missed your calling DS, you should've been wearing a khaki uniform with a pith hat and a huge swirly mustache back in the glory days of Empire. You could recline in the shade with some stiff gin, and a good book while your secretary signed orders to send hordes of Australians and Gurkhas to senseless death before Russian cannons. Then later on after a few more rounds of this, you could settle down at the bar with your peers from the opposite side to redraw the borders of the local dictatorships.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/misc/balkanus.gif

How's this strike you?

--Oso

[Wolf]

Many of these lines are too close to current boundaries and too square. Usually, natural borders follow the landforms involved. They usually follow rivers or mountain ridges... The Oregon territory was actually a much bigger chunk of the continent, and could easily have become one contiguous country, encompassing the Columbia region, much of the northern plains, and so-forth, delineated by two latitudes. The British totally got the shaft on the split (hence the current border at 49 degrees), but it was easier and in their best interest to avoid conflict. Still, I sometimes wish that pansy Polk would have stuck to his campaign promise and fought for the whole of the Oregon territory. Then again, that would propbably have allowed Mexico to hold more territory and the country would be a different shape...

[sorabji_66]

the map is missing the current riches of Alberta.

our pale imitation of the fringe element of Texas.

[Wolf]

the map is missing the current riches of Alberta.

our pale imitation of the fringe element of Texas.
You know that if North America balkanized that Alberta would split from Canada immediately.

[Oso Mocoso]

Many of these lines are too close to current boundaries and too square. Usually, natural borders follow the landforms involved. They usually follow rivers or mountain ridges...

You do realize that it's pretty obviously based on an alternate historical outcome to specific battles, and separatist movements? The presence of Texas, the CSA, and Deseret was a huge clue. So, therefore it's naturally going to cleave to certain existing boundaries.

--Oso

[Wolf]

You do realize that it's pretty obviously based on an alternate historical outcome to specific battles, and separatist movements? The presence of Texas, the CSA, and Deseret was a huge clue. So, therefore it's naturally going to cleave to certain existing boundaries.

--Oso
I did notice that... I don't think Deseret would have been nearly as large, and most likely would have been crushed by one of their more powerful neighbors early-on when they started their expansionism. They wanted to go all the way to the sea, included much of Mexico and Oregon, etc.

[Screendoor]

I don't believe the country is vastly red. I think the country has been vastly fooled into thinking they're red.

Yes. People are a herd species. Most humans follow what the majority is doing. If Paris Hilton starts wearing American Eagle, I bet you at least 75% of the population would consider wearing American Eagle, not that Paris Hilton would go near American Eagle.

What I don't like is all this talk about red and blue states. It's just something the neo-conservatives made up to get people bickering against each other, and it's working. Instead of trying to find common ground, people bicker like three year-old children.

And the internet is dividing people even more. Instead of reading newspapers that are balanced and show the information as it is, people go to their favorite soapbox politician who just mirrors their views, and when contradictory information is presented in an intelligent and convincing way they just shrug and call the informer a fascist tool.

I just really don't like all the division. Can't we all just get along? Instead of trying to work out our differences, we mock those we don't understand, and tell them to form "Jesusland." Not cool.

[Oso Mocoso]

I did notice that... I don't think Deseret would have been nearly as large, and most likely would have been crushed by one of their more powerful neighbors early-on when they started their expansionism. They wanted to go all the way to the sea, included much of Mexico and Oregon, etc.

Jeez, some people on the Internet just want to nitpick EVERYTHING. Fine, make your own map and include the official Wolf alternate history. Then some other nerd will insist *your* alternate history is bad and wrong. You know it would never end.

This is why people back in the day needed the guidance of the British. Those gangstas redrew maps like nobody's business.

--Oso

[ajblaise]

And yet, in my opinion, those are the parts of Canada I would be happy to nuke and forget about. It's the rest of this country that is worth something...

Is it their high quality-of-life that makes them nuke-worthy? I know for me, I cringe at the thought of having anything other than the lowest quality-of-life possible.

[Wolf]

Is it their high quality-of-life that makes them nuke-worthy? I know for me, I cringe at the thought of having anything other than the lowest quality-of-life possible.
Just because they're like NY or SF or other places that are overpopulated and not worth living in as a result.

[Wolf]

This is why people back in the day needed the guidance of the British. Those gangstas redrew maps like nobody's business.
True, but they were really bad at drawing sensible lines from a cultural perspective. They were awesome at straight lines where the lines had no basis in reality other than to divide some land.

Look at Iraq, if that isn't a prime example of bad British line-drawing, I don't know what is.

[ajblaise]

Just because they're like NY or SF or other places that are overpopulated and not worth living in as a result.

Don't you think that would show in their quality-of-life surveys and rankings if that were true? Or do you personally just not like cities?

[sorabji_66]

You know that if North America balkanized that Alberta would split from Canada immediately.



yup, and when the boom went bust they would be poorer than Haiti.

[demagogic_schizoid]

You missed your calling DS, you should've been wearing a khaki uniform with a pith hat and a huge swirly mustache back in the glory days of Empire. You could recline in the shade with some stiff gin, and a good book while your secretary signed orders to send hordes of Australians and Gurkhas to senseless death before Russian cannons. Then later on after a few more rounds of this, you could settle down at the bar with your peers from the opposite side to redraw the borders of the local dictatorships.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/misc/balkanus.gif

How's this strike you?

--Oso

lol this is the best thing I have seen on this forum for a while. I won't even present my poor effort.

and you're right, I did miss my calling. creating country's (and their future conflicts for my heir as superpower to have to sort out) is in my blood I guess.

[Oso Mocoso]

True, but they were really bad at drawing sensible lines from a cultural perspective. They were awesome at straight lines where the lines had no basis in reality other than to divide some land.

Look at Iraq, if that isn't a prime example of bad British line-drawing, I don't know what is.

WTF are you talking about? They were awesome at making sensible lines. The entire purpose of dividing up the Middle East the way they did was to make countries that would be internally conflicted, and politically unstable as a region. Their express purpose was to prevent the Middle East from uniting politically to become a rival power to the British empire.

Did you think they were into nation building altruistically?

--Oso

[Kami]

I did notice that... I don't think Deseret would have been nearly as large, and most likely would have been crushed by one of their more powerful neighbors early-on when they started their expansionism. They wanted to go all the way to the sea, included much of Mexico and Oregon, etc.
The whole basis of this map is that every indpendence movement which has existed on the continent had succeeded, not crushed.

[Wolf]

The whole basis of this map is that every indpendence movement which has existed on the continent had succeeded, not crushed.
If that's true, then that chunk would be huge.

Also, it's missing some of the smaller, more recent, independence movements that would have taken portions of California, (current-day) Oregon, Northern Idaho/Washington/Montana, etc.

[demagogic_schizoid]

If that's true, then that chunk would be huge.

:yes:

From wikipedia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/53/Wpdms_deseret_utah_territory_legend.png

[Hermione]

Well, I would waste my time wishing you'd just nip in that little chunk of me in Virginia. But since i will be first in line to visit my old bf, and mini-me's old bf in Canada, right AFTER we hop the first econoline to the UK to see D/S, and Ferrus, and have a sit with Zhang Bob... I could relinquish my holdings here , quite easily. Very nice, Oso. Oh, and I could start that psychotherapy work I wanted to do on Seawolf if I feel particularly brave.
I feel certain meeting ferrus and d/s in person will make me rawther giddy, to an extent.

[Wolf]

:yes:

From wikipedia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/53/Wpdms_deseret_utah_territory_legend.png
The plans were much bigger than that proposal...

[C.J.Woolf]

The outline of the State of Deseret looks kinda like France.

/me sits backs and waits for the right-wing outrage. :popcorn:

[Zergling]

The outline of the State of Deseret looks kinda like France.

/me sits backs and waits for the right-wing outrage. :popcorn:

(As French nationalist): Certainly not! No hideous, uncivilized, american frontier cult territory ever looks like our glorious France! (or something along those lines.)

[Wolf]

The outline of the State of Deseret looks kinda like France.

/me sits backs and waits for the right-wing outrage. :popcorn:
You know, it does look just a bit like France, only bigger. France is a silly, small, insignificant place.

[Kami]

If any potential square-like figure looks like France, then this one certainly does.

Don't put your bets on Germany, people, remember that the French successfully invaded and occupied parts of Germany in 1920s. And also in mid 1940s.