How highly do we value honesty? [Archive]

Rhu

6 Jul 2007, 03:58 AM

I, as an INTP, am willing to declare this as my most esteemed value. I'll bet many of us here do the same...
I'll take that bet, mostly because past thread (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=15722)s have suggested a trend towards thinking it is almost a right of INTPs to lie; a right granted by belief in their own cleverness and amusement at the poor saps they can fool.

I can't say that dishonesty is a trait that I admire.

On the other hand, I don't have a problem with the occasional petty theft.

LongSilence

6 Jul 2007, 04:00 AM

A certain ability to practice non-stupid Empathy. Even just a little.

HackerX

6 Jul 2007, 06:22 AM

To my friends I say I'm the most honest person they'll ever meet, and the best liar they'll ever know.

I'd probably value intelligence/quick witted ness more highly, but I do value it

sorabji_66

6 Jul 2007, 06:47 AM

I, as an INTP, am willing to declare this as my most esteemed value. I'll bet many of us here do the same...

Discuss.

on essential issue, yes.

otherwise, good BS is far more valuable.

Anonymous

6 Jul 2007, 07:01 AM

I'm usually pretty honest, but I also lie for inane reasons (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=22058) every now and then.

Actually, in my home life, that's false. I live a lie in my home life. My parents think I'm a Christian, and I've been an atheist for a year now. That's more dishonesty out of necessity, though.

Oh, and I doubt there there's such a thing as a completely honest person. Just very convincing liars.

Deckard

6 Jul 2007, 07:20 AM

I value honesty in certain contexts. I value it extremely highly with respect to oneself; I'll have a lot of respect for a person if i can tell they aren't afraid to be honest with themselves. In everyday life I think honesty is a good rule of thumb for living, as it allows clear discussion and faster access to the truth. However i'm completely fine with lying for the sake of convenience - i do it often enough - as long as it's a harmless lie.

Jezebel

6 Jul 2007, 07:31 AM

Depends on context, but I generally agree.

In relationships and friendships trust is extremely important to me so I'm honest and expect the same in return. With strangers and authority figures, if I know being honest is going to get me in trouble and won't change things positively anyway, I have no qualms with lying.

attila_the_hunny

6 Jul 2007, 05:54 PM

I value honesty only with people I care about. My honesty can sometimes be cruel. I'm trying to work on ways to be honest without it always coming out so abrasive and possibly offensive.

I pretty much only lie to people I don't really give a shit about for my amusement. Which is a lot of people, now that I think of it.

Lateralus

6 Jul 2007, 08:43 PM

It's hard to say how much I value honesty. I generally assume everyone is lying or bullshitting (and that's usually the case). I guess I'd value it more if I actually thought people were honest, but they're not.

euterpenc

6 Jul 2007, 11:42 PM

Honesty is important a times, but so is dishonesty. And unfortunately, I am finding that dishonesty works a lot better. If you can lie and go undetected, this seems preferable to honesty because others will see a reality that may not be real, one that you create, thereby giving you power over their reality to some degree. Is this right? Dunno. But it seems like its going to happen to you and everyone else either way, so might as well take advantage. One of those "better you than me" cases.

Perhaps I'm jaded, but I am skeptical of people and what they say. Lies abound everyday life, though they are usually insignificant. Small talk for me is based entirely on deception, and I would think this is true in most cases. It is an artificial exchange, with me in effect lying about my interest in the conversation. And the conversation only lasts as long as I or the other person can give the impression of giving a shit.

So, in conclusion, I don't expect honesty, but if it is given this is very respectable. It seems to take a stronger person to be honest and still get by in the politics of life, politics of course being one of the biggest breeding grounds for dishonesty known to man.

Birdsnest

7 Jul 2007, 04:15 PM

In the workplace or school, you are pretty much forced to conform or else because we are born into a world that is already pre-determined with social structure whether we like it or not, and that structure is meant to stifle individuality completely for the purpose of prolonging the 'group' integrity.

Outside of that, in personal relationships, I believe honesty is extremely important on my list, because I see it as part of the model of Maslow's Heirarchy in true self actualization. And since I'm an intp, I can never self actualize in an extroverted world, so I put half my eggs into a different basket to self actualize my true self apart from work, and the other half of the eggs have to conform to what is already established in order to self actualize in the workplace. The inner and the outer thus self actualize in different directions.

Zephyrus055

7 Jul 2007, 08:07 PM

I selectively value honesty, especially in my network of relationships where we are strongly connected socially and where cooperation is important. To them, who are mostly my friends, I am very honest and never consider taking advantage of them.

On the other hand, I strategically disclose and manipulate information with people I am not socially or cooperatively connected with. For example, I lie and maneuver around my ISTJ dad all the time, because he's an asshole, deserves it, and I do not want to listen to his long and frustrating moral lectures. Actually, I use my family almost habitually. I secretly hate and use them, but outwardly I pretend to be a promising family member.

There are also times when I over disclose and illustrate how my deviancy crosses the mindless standards of conformity by over a mile. I love to especially do this on the first day of my classes when we introduce ourselves. I mention that I'm a shallow asshole, love money, power and pleasure, am apathetic toward human suffering, only care about knowledge supported by experience, and that I pursue personal excellence. My speech tends to be a lot more detailed than that, but I love the reactions I get from people when I do that. The interesting thing is that I learned that when I am too honest about these things and act like there's nothing wrong, I get a lot of applause, wtf?

Varelse

7 Jul 2007, 10:52 PM

I despise anyone who cannot handle honesty in a relationship. Maybe that's why I have so many problems with the SFs....

If someone is unwilling to deal with honesty, then I'll tell them little lies on occasion just to keep them shut up. :sadbanana:

attila_the_hunny

7 Jul 2007, 10:55 PM

Maybe that's why I have so many problems with the SFs....

Everyone lies.

Varelse

7 Jul 2007, 11:08 PM

Everyone lies.Yes. It's just that the SFs I've encountered seem to react poorly to me telling them the truth if they don't like it. Or just being a little blunt sends them into fits.

Ferrus

8 Jul 2007, 12:39 PM

I value honesty in certain contexts.
Precisely, in the intellectual or academic sphere I consider it a sine qua non of someone's competence. In my personal life though the various demands and exigencies mean such honesty cannot, perhaps should not, be applied equally.

ajblaise

23 Jul 2007, 07:37 PM

euterpenc

28 Jul 2007, 09:11 AM

I really like blunt people.

In social settings, i'm constantly trying to come up with ways to be honest about everything that's going on without being/looking like a dick. Trying to zero-in on some middle ground.

It helps if while your being honest with people to try and convey sincerity, for me it comes out in ways I don't want it to sometimes.

I really like blunts, people.

but seriously, I think lying goes farther as long as it is used properly and not excessively. Seems like social relationship thrive on little white lies.

ajblaise

29 Jul 2007, 11:34 PM

Seems like social relationship thrive on little white lies.

Yup. it seems to me that the less white lies that are needed the better the social relationship. But if I had an outside job-life, i'd be tossing out white lies like $1's to a stripper.

Relationships where you can be totally (or at least 80+% or 90+%) honest and open about your thoughts, and deliver these thoughts in a non-abrasive way are ideal, for me.

Karl

16 Aug 2007, 08:34 PM

I used to be obsessively honest. Then I decided that, as much as I disliked it, it was okay for me to lie for other people's benefit.

Then I lied so I could keep doing something that no one wanted me to do. After I did that, lying for something totally selfish, it was like a wall broke down. I try not to lie for myself, but I the absolute devotion to this is gone, except for the people I respect or care about the most. For instance, I have sense lied to my parents several times, who I don't have a world of respect for, even if there's a little thankfullness.

Also, 250 posts in 17 days.

euterpenc

17 Aug 2007, 05:16 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vgQalXaIxs

matthew0028

17 Aug 2007, 06:59 PM

Also, 250 posts in 17 days.

Reminds me of when I started on here.

Then I stopped posting because I lost the intense interest I initally had in the place.

Ferrus

17 Aug 2007, 07:03 PM

Reminds me of when I started on here.

Then I stopped posting because I lost the intense interest I initally had in the place.
As for me, I realised what a damn nuisance I was so continued my rampant posting unabated.

Karl

17 Aug 2007, 07:12 PM

Well, I think once you reach 1000 you can change the subtitle under your name. It seems like everyone over 1,000 has one and someone mentioned it "1000 post" in their subtitle.

So I'm really going to have to pick up the pace if I want to get to 1,000 in 17 more days.

aether

19 Aug 2007, 12:29 AM

I value honesty immensely. It's interesting that sometimes I am so honest that people think I'm lying.

Nighthawk

19 Aug 2007, 12:56 AM

Karl

19 Aug 2007, 02:25 AM

You could justify not telling about your relationships as actually benefiting your wife. Sure, this could be seen as playing god, but sense there isn't a god someone has to do it

Actually this sort of thing is difficult for me but I keep the secrets anyway.

starla

19 Aug 2007, 02:34 AM

I lie often to avoid follow up conversations.

Example:

Mom: "Have you been on any dates recently?"
Me: "No."

Responding with the truth would have either led to a conversation that I didn't feel like having or started a big argument, depending on whether the truth I chose to respond with was "Yes" or "It's none of your business".

Karl

19 Aug 2007, 02:41 AM

I do that too... but I think they know I'm lying.

Park

23 Aug 2007, 10:51 AM

To me, it's just a matter of cost/benefit.
In don't perceive honesty as a virtue just a more or less conscious choise.

SolitaryWalker

23 Aug 2007, 12:04 PM

I think total honesty is highly overrated. For example, no matter how much my wife states that she wants to know about all my previous relationships in detail ... I know that telling her would be nothing but trouble. Similarly, revealing every dark little thought in my mind ... what I did in the war ... etc. would not be all that peachy either. Having said that, I do value honesty in most situations however.

Though you can be honest about your wishes to keep parts of your past private, even in relation to her. Not telling her about that doesn't constitute a dishonesty, leading her to believe that you'd tell her every little detail and then holding back on certain parts would.

SolitaryWalker

23 Aug 2007, 12:06 PM

To me, it's just a matter of cost/benefit.
In don't perceive honesty as a virtue just a more or less conscious choise.

What about protecting the integrity of your inner world? While you do that, from the standpoint of a pragmatist (cost/benefit perspective), you implicitly adhere to certain values. It is not that you protect your inner world by consciously chosing to be honest, but the other way around, you protect your inner world by all means necessary, and as a result you end up having strong personal values, of which honesty is one.

Park

23 Aug 2007, 06:13 PM

What about protecting the integrity of your inner world? While you do that, from the standpoint of a pragmatist (cost/benefit perspective), you implicitly adhere to certain values. It is not that you protect your inner world by consciously chosing to be honest, but the other way around, you protect your inner world by all means necessary, and as a result you end up having strong personal values, of which honesty is one.

I'm not sure I understand you correctly, it's seems as if you'r trying to point out something incorherrent in what I wrote - if that's the case, I don't see it.

To me, being honest towards other people does have a value - I just don't nessecarily perceive honesty as a virtue.

SolitaryWalker

23 Aug 2007, 10:42 PM

What do you understand for virtue to be? And if you're using virtue in a vernacular sense of the word, why do you value something that isnt a virtue?

Park

23 Aug 2007, 11:28 PM

What do you understand for virtue to be? And if you're using virtue in a vernacular sense of the word, why do you value something that isnt a virtue?

Ah, get it. It isn't my use of *virtue* which blurrs the communiction but *value*. My use of value wasn't positive loaded but neutral.

Let me rewrite what I wrote before:
To me, being honest towards other people does have a value - just not nessecarily a positive value.

Park

24 Aug 2007, 03:10 PM

Scenario:
You are shipwrecked on a deserted island with a child. You don't have any food and you don't know if you'll ever get back to civilization again. The child eventually dies of starvation and you either have to eat the corpse or suffer the same destiny. You choose to eat the corpse, survive and is eventually rescued.

When you get back to civilization, the childs parents and loved ones ask you if you know how the child died and if you know where his/her remains are since they would like to travel to the island and bring home the body to give their child a proper funeral.

- Do you tell the parents the truth. The child suffered a long painful death and afterwards his/her remains passed through your digestion system?

- Or do you lie and e.g. tell the parents that the child drowned which is why the corpse can't be found?

Neatless to say but I'd lie my arse off. I do the same in less extreme personal matters.
Furthermore, I dislike it when people do bad stuff to others and take the pressure of their own guilt by telling their victims a truth they could easily have lived without - all in the name of honesty.
My attitude is this, if you choose to be an arsehole, do it properly. Carry your guilt with grace.

Park

24 Aug 2007, 05:07 PM

Sorry I'm not finished.
I find the brutally honest INTP interesting because there's more to being honest and seeking the truth than just Ti and Ne. It seems to me that the desire for honesty also stem from a desire for acceptance. Far from every INTPs live lifes where they are accepted and embraced for who they are. Many INTPs have to do the chameleon thingie in everyday life in order to fit in and some of those who refuse to fake it ends up as social outcasts.

I don't think INTPs mainly admire Einstein for his intelligence. I think INTPs admire him mainly because he's the nerd who (at least from the outside) were able to remain truthful to himself and at the same time obtain social acceptance.

But in context with especially corporate life, honesty and displaying a truthful behaviour is also about power. I have a company which means that I in my everyday life have priviledges when it comes to being true to myself and others, which I didn't have when I worked for other companies. If say weird stuff or choose to not shower for two days and work from 24.00 to 08.00 - people will just shake their heads, smile and say "that's just Park, she's just a bit eccentric". If I had done that while working for others, I would have most likely have been fired (actually, in the past, I have been fired more times than I care to remember).

I'm still trying to figure out if Ape's "post your arse" thread is rellevant to what I'm writing at this moment or not - sort of like an extreme desire for openess and honesty.