Islamism and "Islamic" terrorism's roots in western imperialism

[joleofmichigan]

I've been doing a little reading on the Middle East for the past few years and have heard it suggested that modern Islamism was born out of unwanted western political influence in the Middle East.

I'm interested if anyone else is interested in this proposition, agrees or disagrees with it, and can possibly recommend any resources.

[Lateralus]

There isn't a single cause, but imperialism certainly contributed.

[Ellipsis]

There isn't a single cause.

Wow I thought you where an INTP for a second...

Yeah I agree mostly,kinda, maybe with that....

[sandwich]

I heard a lecture where the speaker covered the same points as you and suggested that it was the combination of all instances, including Imperialism were responsible. Actually, I wonder if you've read his books. I can't remember the name right now, dang... this is going to bug me. Just a sec, must check Amazon. Colin Chapman! He wrote Cross and Crescent and Whose Promised Land? I haven't read either book, and I'm not really sure how much I agree with his views. Though his points were valid, I think that there must be much more involved.

One thing that was very interesting was how he compared the formerly mentioned Iran situation with the current mishap in Gaza. More of history repeating itself? I don't really know enough of what happened with Iran to completely understand.

Have you read the America textbook by the Daily Show? There was a great section showing an unmarked map of the Middle East to draw pretty lines for dividing states. "Pay no mind to cultural or religious differences, the British didn't!"

I just finished reading From Beirut to Jerusalem by Thomas Friedman. It doesn't specifically examine Islamic terrorism, but more Israel's relationship to Lebanon and some of the miscommunication in cultures and ideas contributing to the first war between the two countries. I'm pretty new to modern middle eastern history, so I hope this discussion doesn't die here...

[Lateralus]

Ok, after reading other comments in here, I'm starting to wonder.

Do people truly and honestly believe that Islam, alone, is responsible for terrorism? Are there others on the opposite extreme who think imperialism, alone, is responsible? Both of those stances appear to be very short-sighted to me.

[booyalab]

Ok, after reading other comments in here, I'm starting to wonder.

Do people truly and honestly believe that Islam, alone, is responsible for terrorism? Are there others on the opposite extreme who think imperialism, alone, is responsible? Both of those stances appear to be very short-sighted to me.

Islamic terrorism is essentially the radical strain of the Islamic political movement. Unlike other religions, there is a significant part to Islam that is a political vision of the world. That vision involves all governments and people submitting to Allah and Islamic law. Peaceful muslims don't subscribe to the political strain of the religion. Aggressive muslims do, and some will kill or die for it.


edit: You seem to be making an assumption that terrorists operate under the same mindset as the average westerner.

[Lateralus]

Islamic terrorism is essentially the radical strain of the Islamic political movement. Unlike other religions, there is a significant part to Islam that is a political vision of the world. That vision involves all governments and people submitting to Allah and Islamic law. Peaceful muslims don't subscribe to the political strain of the religion. Aggressive muslims do, and some will kill or die for it.
I'm not saying that religion doesn't play a part. I'm saying that it's not the only part.


edit: You seem to be making an assumption that terrorists operate under the same mindset as the average westerner.
I'm operating under the assumption that they're human beings. :P

[Lee]

*rolls eyes*

Oh yeah, it doesn't have anything to do with Islam, or those muslims who've been waging Jihad against the Kufirs since the middle-ages. No no no, if they were all jainists instead, then we'd just have jainist suicide bombers today, right?

[Lateralus]

*rolls eyes*

Oh yeah, it doesn't have anything to do with Islam, or those muslims who've been waging Jihad against the Kufirs since the middle-ages. No no no, if they were all jainists instead, then we'd just have jainist suicide bombers today, right?
Wait, are we talking about Muslim empires or terrorism? I'm confused because your post seems to not be addressing the subject matter. You wouldn't be trying to divert the topic, would you?

[Lee]

Wait, are we talking about Muslim empires or terrorism? I'm confused because your post seems to not be addressing the subject matter. You wouldn't be trying to divert the topic, would you?You wouldn't be missing the point, would you?

[Lateralus]

You wouldn't be missing the point, would you?
Yes, the point is that you apply a double standard to your assessment of history.

[joft]

i saw a book in the bookstore today by the "jihad watch" guy, something like, "Religion of peace, why christianity is and islam is not"

what a fucking waste of tree fiber. i barely got through a couple pages of the chapter on reason (and how christianity is rational while islam isn't) before i had to put it down because the sheer number of holes in his arguments was too distracting.

for example, from the part that I did read, he was insisting that Islamic theology emphasizes that Allah is not bound by reason or logic, and therefore he's allowed to be totally arbitrary if he chooses, and thus there's no reason in studying the laws of nature because they could change tomorrow. here's the thing, unless he's a deist or something he'd be called a heretic by any christian theologian if he said that the christian god was bound by reason or logic. the christian god is every bit as arbitrary, that's why he can kill whoever he wants, command us to kill whoever he wants us to, and then also command us not to kill at all. that's why one day it's our duty to stone fags to death and another day it's our duty to save them.

the author argues that western science and philosophy are based on christianity because it's logical whereas islam is not. but christianity is not logical, it's full of retarded contradictions like an omniscient god and free will, or absurdities like animal sacrifice and six-winged angels and jesus-with-a-sword-coming-out-of-his-mouth and ghost-god impregnating teenage girl, etc.

these "contrary to politically correct opinion, not all religions are equal, and mine is better" arguments are hilarious. christianity is just a patchwork of shit stolen from other religions, then influenced by greek philosophers, etc. christianity is just as hell bent on converting the world and subjecting everyone to their take on morality (hopefully scientists in China finish the stem cell research before their country gets converted)

sorry that's all somewhat off-topic but that book pissed me off.

you might try reading bin Laden's own words (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,,845725,00.html) about why he attacked us.

[Lee]

Yes, the point is that you apply a double standard to your assessment of history.To use double standards in my assessment of history, I would need to judge two different events of history by two different sets of standards, thereby using different standards to apply to different events i.e. double standards.

Now if you would just be so kind to explain where I did this it would be much appreciated. Thank you.

[Ferrus]

There isn't a single cause, but imperialism certainly contributed.
Agreed, or rather Imperialism was a nurse to the present troubles, it is no surprise that much of the present Islamism has its roots in Eygpt in the 1920's in opposition to British rule. There extreme religious feeling of 1000 years ago is as irrelevant as the extreme religious feeling of Christians then was, and besides it was of a rather different nature, given Islam's great power and coherence in an Empire that included all Muslims bar the extremities of the Muslim world (such as India and Spain). Laying 'blame' in what is essentially a complex casual web does not help. The solidity of the Muslim people - and their desire to fight for what they see as justice, the creation of Israel, the existence of oil and

[Lee]

these "contrary to politically correct opinion, not all religions are equal, and mine is better" arguments are hilarious. christianity is just a patchwork of shit stolen from other religions, then influenced by greek philosophers, etc. christianity is just as hell bent on converting the world and subjecting everyone to their take on morality (hopefully scientists in China finish the stem cell research before their country gets converted)You know, everything you said could be true and Christianity might still be better than Islam.

[Ferrus]

Christianity at least has the grace that its incoherence make it harder for it to subject universally.

[Lateralus]

To use double standards in my assessment of history, I would need to judge two different events of history by two different sets of standards, thereby using different standards to apply to different events i.e. double standards.

Now if you would just be so kind to explain where I did this it would be much appreciated. Thank you.
Your mention of the Muslim empire betrays your bias. Christianity is just as guilty of atrocities as Islam, until modern times (and some would argue that it continues). Since nearly all civilizations are guilty of waging war, to use that to indict Islam is disingenuous, hence double standard.

This thread is about terrorism, not state-sponsored war.

[nonperson]

The solidity of the Muslim people - and their desire to fight for what they see as justice, the creation of Israel, the existence of oil and

Could expand on this please?

The Muslim world is as culturally fractured as the Western world. For example Sunnis hate Shias more vehemently than they do the West. Isn't Israel a convenient scapegoat for incompetent governments in the Arab world? Remember the difference between an Israeli Arab and any other Arab is the Israeli gets a vote.

[Lee]

Your mention of the Muslim empire betrays your bias.If you are referring to my bias toward the truth, then I agree. It is a very strong bias, some would call it a prejudice, gets me into all kinds of trouble.


Christianity is just as guilty of atrocities as IslamTo say that Christianity or Islam are guilty of anything is mistaken, and so I never intended to make any such accusation. Ideas are never guilty of anything.


Since nearly all civilizations are guilty of waging war, to use that to indict Islam is disingenuous, hence double standard.I was not indicting Islamic civilisation for waging war, irrespective of whether other civilisations have also waged war. I believe war is sometimes a necessary evil, even for the best civilisation.


This thread is about terrorism, not state-sponsored war.That's peculiar. The jihadists call it a war, and there are states that sponser them. Perhaps the jihadists never got the memo, but more likely simply couldn't give a toss what euphemism some parts of the media like to throw around.

[NightCrawler]

Islam sees no difference between church and state. To make a difference (what we claim to have/try to have) is absurd. Conversion and war are not synonymous, but they overlap a great deal.

[Lateralus]

...
You've failed to refute my claim that you apply a double standard with your post.

[Lateralus]

Islam sees no difference between church and state. To make a difference (what we claim to have/try to have) is absurd. Conversion and war are not synonymous, but they overlap a great deal.
I find your stance interesting, since you fail to consider ideas like the Divine Right of Kings.

[Lee]

You've failed to refute my claim that you apply a double standard with your post.Okay, I'll spell it out for you again. Please follow closely; and remember, nobody is going to think less of you if you just admit you made a false accusation (it actually shows courage).

I do not think Islam is guilty of anything and do not consider a history of war sufficient to indict anyone or anything. Therefore, I couldn't have been applying the double standards which you read into my post.

Now, if you would please answer my question: if western governments had acted just as they did through history, but we were dealing with Jianists instead of muslims, do you seriously think there would be a problem with Jainist suicide bombers today?

[EL84]

you might try reading bin Laden's own words (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,,845725,00.html) about why he attacked us.

Thanks for the link. I didn't know it existed, and it was really interesting.

[Lateralus]

Okay, I'll spell it out for you again. Please follow closely; and remember, nobody is going to think less of you if you just admit you made a false accusation (it actually shows courage).

I do not think Islam is guilty of anything and do not consider a history of war sufficient to indict anyone or anything. Therefore, I couldn't have been applying the double standards which you read into my post.

Now, if you would please answer my question: if western governments had acted just as they did through history, but we were dealing with Jianists instead of muslims, do you seriously think there would be a problem with Jainist suicide bombers today?
That's a hypothetical question which no one can answer with any degree of certainty. However, there are other religions that also have suicide bombers. So I feel confident in saying, yes, there would.

I made no false accusation.

[Ferrus]

The Muslim world is as culturally fractured as the Western world. For example Sunnis hate Shias more vehemently than they do the West. Isn't Israel a convenient scapegoat for incompetent governments in the Arab world? Remember the difference between an Israeli Arab and any other Arab is the Israeli gets a vote.
Firstly: the Shias make up a small portion of Islam, and whilst there is hatred, open bloodshed in Iraq, the conflict between the two sides has been toned down because of a common enemy.

Secondly: A convenient scapegoat? You seem to take a typically Western view that Arabs must love their country as the vast majority of Westerners do. No, they despise their governments, especially for their corruption, and more especially for their supposed immorality and willingness to adopt Western innovations. Pan-Arabism and Arab socialism, along with the monarchies imposed by Britain and France are dead as ideas, and their relic still cling on simply by virtue of their power. The majority of Muslims sympathise with the goals, if not necessarily the exact actions of what have become called 'Islamists'.

So, they hate their own governments, for being Western stooges, almost as much as Israel. But Israel they shall always hate, perhaps as a distractions from more pressing issues, because of the nakba, the disaster, the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians by Israel, at the connivance of the West. Whatever your attitude, you cannot deny that it will taint Western-Islamic relations till a resolution is found.

As for Arabs not being able to vote - there are many in the Muslim world who see democracy as inherently corrupt and decadent, Western. Why? Democracy, to some extent is predicated on moral relativity, the right of the moral majority to decide. But yet to Muslims this is irrelevant. All that is needed is God's code (Sharia) and religious scholars to interpret the nicities hereof. The establishment of democracy in Iraq, at least to a dgree, offensive to Muslim sensibilities. But even the liberal Arabs would readily say that the reason there are these venal dictators is because it once served the West to put them there.

Remember, Muslims care far more about Western culture than we do about them - because we are not really having their culture imposed on us. Remember, what we take as assumptions of 'good government' or 'morality', or even basic perspectives, may be radically different in other cultures and eras.

[booyalab]

I find your stance interesting, since you fail to consider ideas like the Divine Right of Kings.
Try to understand the difference between using a religion for political ends and using a political movement for religious ends.

[Lateralus]

Try to understand the difference between using a religion for political ends and using a political movement for religious ends.
You're right. I don't see any difference. I don't believe there is a religious end.

[isquishplatano]

how to be an Arab dictator..

stay in power for as long as you can (25 years in case of Egypt king)
stage fake elections to make your retarded people think they elected you
subsidize flour and gas to keep the people fed.. no matter how much bigger your countries debt becomes

secretly export water/gas/cement and other supplies to Israel.. while your people have no clue! then act like israel and the united states are your enemy to keep your citizens pissed off at Israel.. and the united states to keep there minds off you while you rape them of everything they have


a good analogy i heard.. forgot where.. expecting the Muslims to stand up and oust the terrorist among them is like expecting Italian families to oust the mafia.. it just doesn't work!!!

Shiites make up LESS THAN 5% of Muslims... terrorist/extremist prolly make up less than .1% because of complications with the Islamic doctrine you cant just get up and denounce terrorism.. and its also kinda hard to do that with all the incidents that happened.. with the torture/rapes/accidental bombings/shooting sprees done for fun/placing guns on dead bodies to make em look like insurgents.. the same way those people don't represent the entire us army.. insurgents/terrorist/Islamic extremist don't represent Muslims

as a good friend of mine would say...

BOOSH!!!

[meanlittlechimp]

An example would be how the supposedly secular and democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran, Mohammed Mosaddeq, was overthrown by the CIA through Operation Ajax and replaced with someone western governments liked--the Shah. The result being that the progressive Shah's attempts to westernize and modernize Iran only repulsed the Iranian people to choose the diametric opposite--the ultra-conservative Khomeini.



The Shah was not progressive. They had death squads (many trained my US military personnel) that snatched dissidents up in the middle of the night, tortured and shot them. These dissidents were the true progressives. They wanted a democracy, not a monarchy propped up by western oil interests. The Shah could not have remained in power without direct US military and financial support.

They chose Khomeni, because the religious right were the only ones ballsy enough to overthrow a militarized police state (unlike the constitutional democracy they had just a few years earlier). Religious zealots generally don't fear firing squads as much - since they have virgins in heaven waiting for them. Even the secular, were indebted to those that expelled the yoke of foreign domination, which caused many to convert to fundamentalist forms of Islam in droves.

After Khomeni, gets into power, what do we do?, but heavily arm their neighbor, through another dictatorship we helped support, and authorized and encouraged the Iran Iraq war. We've been fucking them pretty hard in the ass for the last 50 years or so.

They don't need to read articles and books about this stuff, they're reminded every day by their parents and dead relatives to what the West did to their country - they were the most democratic and westernized Arab country before the US chased out Mossadeq. They would have helped stabilize the region instead of pumping out freedom fighters; but obviously stabilization was never our goal.

[Lateralus]

The Shah was not progressive. They had death squads that shot snatched dissidents up in the middle of the night, tortured and shot them. These dissidents were the true progressives. They wanted a democracy, not a monarchy propped up by western oil interests.

They chose Khomeni, because the religious right were the only ones ballsy enough to overthrow the puppet government. Religious zealots generally don't fear firing squads as much - since they have virgins in heaven waiting for them. Even the secular, were indebted to those that expelled the yoke of foreign domination, which caused many to convert to fundamentalist forms of Islam in droves.

After the Shah, gets into power, what do we do?, but heavily arm their neighbor, through another dictatorship we helped support, and authorized and encouraged the Iran Iraq war. We've been fucking them pretty hard in the ass for the last 50 years or so.

They don't need to read articles and books about this stuff, they're reminded every day by their parents and dead relatives to what the West did to their country - they were the most democratic and westernized Arab country before the US chased out Mossadeq. They would have helped stabilize the region instead of pumping out freedom fighters; but obviously stabilization was never our goal.
:highfive:

[sandwich]

how to be an Arab dictator..

stay in power for as long as you can (25 years in case of Egypt king)
stage fake elections to make your retarded people think they elected you
subsidize flour and gas to keep the people fed.. no matter how much bigger your countries debt becomes

secretly export water/gas/cement and other supplies to Israel.. while your people have no clue! then act like israel and the united states are your enemy to keep your citizens pissed off at Israel.. and the united states to keep there minds off you while you rape them of everything they have



Don't forget to pull the "we are doing this for our Palestinian brethren" whenever your actions seem questionable to the press. You don't need to actually help them or anything, but it sounds nice and various news agencies will love it. And if your country is about to be examined for nukes, just arrange a senseless riot on the Temple Mount.

Regarding the usual Christianity vs. Islam, I came across this Ayaan Hirsi Ali interview (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=26321_Video-_Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali_vs._Northern_Moonbat#comments) today that I found rather eloquent.

[Stoned_Rider]

how to be an Arab dictator..

stay in power for as long as you can (25 years in case of Egypt king)
stage fake elections to make your retarded people think they elected you
subsidize flour and gas to keep the people fed.. no matter how much bigger your countries debt becomes

secretly export water/gas/cement and other supplies to Israel.. while your people have no clue! then act like israel and the united states are your enemy to keep your citizens pissed off at Israel.. and the united states to keep there minds off you while you rape them of everything they have


- Prepare your son to inherit your throne. If, upon your death, he is below the minimum legal age to be president, that's OK! Rest assured that the constitution WILL be altered to accommodate him :yes:

[isquishplatano]

Don't forget to pull the "we are doing this for our Palestinian brethren" whenever your actions seem questionable to the press. You don't need to actually help them or anything, but it sounds nice and various news agencies will love it. And if your country is about to be examined for nukes, just arrange a senseless riot on the Temple Mount.

Regarding the usual Christianity vs. Islam, I came across this ts Ayaan Hirsi Ali interview today that I found rather eloquent.

Palestinian people are to Arabs as blacks are to Americans

not one arab country gives a damn about the palestinian people...


that interview was eloquent? more like eloquently disgusting..

subordinating women to men? like Christianity doesn't say that?

homosexuality and adultery banned? Christianity may have been watered down but they still take a hard ass tone with homosexuality..

other holy books almost absolete?

no christians who want to have the bible replace the constitution?

she claims hes exaggerating.. he brings up abortion doctors being shot
her rebuttle is that the people who shot abortion doctors were tried and put in jail.. but in iran they aquited people who shot and killed a man and a woman for holding hands? first off id like to see facts on that case.. um in iran they have sigas where a guy and girl go get married for 15 minutes to a couple days so they can have sex.. and then get divorced.. they have whore houses.. this entire interview is laughable at best... back when the united states was still fresh.. id think that if someone shot an abortion doctor they would have been acquited too

no such thing as islamophobia? i hate organizations like CAIR and ADC as much as anyone but i know when i go to jail for running a red light thats discrimination..

she says America has the best democracy yet has a retarded rebuttal when the interviewer brings up the so called fair elections

the second she said islamophobia doesn't exist first thing popped into my head was antisemitism:) then he said it and her rebuttal was even more retarded.. islamophobia is not only anti islam. its anti islam and anti arabs.. because people don't differentiate between Muslims and Arabs


the entire interview should have been aired on comedy central..

[sandwich]

subordinating women to men? like Christianity doesn't say that?

There are some oddly dispersed verses that you could use to support that, and then I could explain cultural whatevers and context, but I'm sure you've heard it all before so I'm not going bother.

homosexuality and adultery banned? Christianity may have been watered down but they still take a hard ass tone with homosexuality..

Yet I haven't read of any stonings by Christians recently, so it must not be a fundamentalist tone, unlike what you find under muslim authorities.

other holy books almost absolete?

In terms of the majority, yes. Most of the western world disregards religion. And a large majority of those who claim to be religious still disregard their respective holy writ.

no christians who want to have the bible replace the constitution?

I often attend a very politically conservative church, and my dad subscribes to very conservative magazines. They certainly strive for America to "turn back to Biblical roots" but never to actually replace the constitution. Also, they are a minority, and a weak one at that.

she claims hes exaggerating.. he brings up abortion doctors being shot
her rebuttle is that the people who shot abortion doctors were tried and put in jail.. but in iran they aquited people who shot and killed a man and a woman for holding hands? first off id like to see facts on that case.. um in iran they have sigas where a guy and girl go get married for 15 minutes to a couple days so they can have sex.. and then get divorced.. they have whore houses.. this entire interview is laughable at best... back when the united states was still fresh.. id think that if someone shot an abortion doctor they would have been acquited too

Iran isn't fresh. I don't know any of the facts behind what she's said or what you've written, but I do know that at least honor killings are still prevalent throughout the Middle East and often never reported or punished. There are other things I could talk bring into the discussion, but I'm rusty on details. Sorry I don't have any links for this, but my only real backing is from people I've talked to who have actually lived in those areas.

no such thing as islamophobia?

That response was pretty weak, but partially because he hardly gave her a chance to talk. I don't know details about her recent history, but I wouldn't be surprised if star status has given her an easier time in the states. That said, I hope you didn't miss one of her more pointed lines: "You grew up in freedom, so you can spit on freedom. You don't know what it's like to not have it." Sure, she pulled out a few cliched lines, but what do you expect? She herself practically personifies much of American idealism.

[isquishplatano]

subordinating women to men? like Christianity doesn't say that?

There are some oddly dispersed verses that you could use to support that, and then I could explain cultural whatevers and context, but I'm sure you've heard it all before so I'm not going bother.

oddly dispersed verses? have you seen the mythbusters son o a gun episode? a women would rather bleed to death than have a doctor look at her shot wound in the abdomen..

homosexuality and adultery banned? Christianity may have been watered down but they still take a hard ass tone with homosexuality..

Yet I haven't read of any stonings by Christians recently, so it must not be a fundamentalist tone, unlike what you find under muslim authorities.

and i havent heard of any muslim stoning recently.. ive seen homosexuality rampant in egypt.. and jordan.. my parents tell me that its so bad in saudi arabia that families feared more for theyre boys walking down the street.. then they did there girls..

other holy books almost absolete?

In terms of the majority, yes. Most of the western world disregards religion. And a large majority of those who claim to be religious still disregard their respective holy writ.
and the same can be said for islam... take a stroll down any street in cairo.. jordan.. lebanon.. syria.. plenty of prostitution.. plenty of boyfriend girlfriend girls wearing swimsuits people speak of iran being full of sharia squads yet they still have sigas going on... and drugs are everywhere.. bad news makes good news and anything the media can take and blow up they will splash all over the headlines... library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/tmpmrig.htm theres one article backing my siga argument...

no christians who want to have the bible replace the constitution?

I often attend a very politically conservative church, and my dad subscribes to very conservative magazines. They certainly strive for America to "turn back to Biblical roots" but never to actually replace the constitution. Also, they are a minority, and a weak one at that.

replace doesnt have to mean replace.. but when you start passing laws that make homosexual marriages and abortion illegal then your imposing the bible on the people

she claims hes exaggerating.. he brings up abortion doctors being shot
her rebuttle is that the people who shot abortion doctors were tried and put in jail.. but in iran they aquited people who shot and killed a man and a woman for holding hands? first off id like to see facts on that case.. um in iran they have sigas where a guy and girl go get married for 15 minutes to a couple days so they can have sex.. and then get divorced.. they have whore houses.. this entire interview is laughable at best... back when the united states was still fresh.. id think that if someone shot an abortion doctor they would have been acquited too

Iran isn't fresh. I don't know any of the facts behind what she's said or what you've written, but I do know that at least honor killings are still prevalent throughout the Middle East and often never reported or punished. There are other things I could talk bring into the discussion, but I'm rusty on details. Sorry I don't have any links for this, but my only real backing is from people I've talked to who have actually lived in those areas.

where are honor killings prevalent in the middle east? last time i was in egypt my gf cheated on me with my best friend who told me she was too ugly for me.. ive lived in egypt.. jordan.. saudi arabia and qatar.. havent seen or heard one story of honor killings.. ofcourse you can say its never reported and they hide it and then we can say aliens landed in rosewell and it wasnt reported and they hide it

no such thing as islamophobia?

That response was pretty weak, but partially because he hardly gave her a chance to talk. I don't know details about her recent history, but I wouldn't be surprised if star status has given her an easier time in the states. That said, I hope you didn't miss one of her more pointed lines: "You grew up in freedom, so you can spit on freedom. You don't know what it's like to not have it." Sure, she pulled out a few cliched lines, but what do you expect? She herself practically personifies much of American idealism.

she had plenty of time to talk.. looked to me like cat got her tounge most of the time.. he laid it down pretty thick and her responses were retarded.. again.. note what i said.. islamophobia isnt limited to anti-islam.. its also anti arab..

[Ferrus]

Try to understand the difference between using a religion for political ends and using a political movement for religious ends.
Politics is just a public subset of morality - all religions are political, though not all actively engage with the establishment.

[nonperson]

Firstly: the Shias make up a small portion of Islam, and whilst there is hatred, open bloodshed in Iraq, the conflict between the two sides has been toned down because of a common enemy.

Wonderfully answered!!!!!!! Thank you. It a pleasure read to your posts.

I don't have a set position on this, I see all sides. You are right about Arabs and their attitude to the nation state. As you quite rightly said to them the nation state is an artificial construct. Arabs have a saying,

"Me against my brother; my brother and I against my cousin; my cousin and I against the world."

The Arabs are (at the moment) more fearful of Shia Iran than Israel. The Arab has historically come worse off in any conflict with Persians.

Democracy isn't perfect. But Israel still the largest economy in the Middle East without the oil of its neighbours or land mass. So there must be some benefit to the system.

Thanks again Ferrus.

[Ferrus]

The Arabs are (at the moment) more fearful of Shia Iran than Israel. The Arab has historically come worse off in any conflict with Persians.
Agreed - as I have stated before the US and Israel has, ironically, turned Iran into a superpower by crippling Iraq, Afghanistan and Lebanon, and disaffecting Syria, because all of these governments formed buffers against Iranian power. I suspect the ruling elite and liberal middle class fear Iran more than the poor commonalty - even with their distate of Shia 'superstition'. Note how many Iranians deeply disapproved of the invasion of Iraq, despite the fact that Saddam and his regime were sworn enemies of the 'Persians'.


Democracy isn't perfect. But Israel still the largest economy in the Middle East without the oil of its neighbours or land mass. So there must be some benefit to the system.
Agreed, but we are kidding ourselves if we are convinced that mere material gain is going to convince the poor Arab populations to divest themselves of their profoundly held moral codes.

[isquishplatano]

wow.. just wow.. so democracy is the reason israel's economy is doing so well huh? most absurd statement ive heard to date.. without the backing the united states and all the other international contributers.. israel would fall flat on its ass.

oh yea democracy is working wonders for the us economy

[Dr. Haight]

:popcorn:

[Lateralus]

Agreed, but we are kidding ourselves if we are convinced that mere material gain is going to convince the poor Arab populations to divest themselves of their profoundly held moral codes.
I think it will take a couple generations before the extremism subsides in the Middle East. We need to extremists to die off naturally. Killing them will only create more.

[booyalab]

You're right. I don't see any difference. I don't believe there is a religious end.

It doesn't matter what YOU believe. It matters what they believe, and the difference is in what is the person believes they have gained from their efforts. Henry VIII's various acts that established him as the head of the Church of England can be distinguished from Islamic Jihad in that Henry attempted to alter the religious landscape for a material goal but Jihadists are attempting to alter the political landscape for a spiritual goal.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1083918,00.html


She emphasized their "relative economic deprivation." I answered that the lads had immigrant parents who had worked hard to make something of themselves. I reminded her that several of the 9/11 hijackers came from wealthy families, and it's not as if they left the boys out of the will. Finally, I told her about my conversation three years ago with the political leader of Islamic Jihad in Gaza. "What's the difference between suicide, which the Koran condemns, and martyrdom?" I asked. "Suicide," he replied, "is done out of despair. But remember: most of our martyrs today were very successful in their earthly lives." In short, there was a future to live for--and they detonated it anyway.

[booyalab]

We need to extremists to die off naturally. Killing them will only create more.

Are you fucking kidding me? Are you unaware that they're trying to kill US?

[Lateralus]

Are you fucking kidding me? Are you unaware that they're trying to kill US?
Oh, I know they're trying to kill us. I just believe the threat is overestimated. I don't think our strategy is working, at all.

[booyalab]

Oh, I know they're trying to kill us. I just believe the threat is overestimated. I don't think our strategy is working, at all.
and so your proposal is to just not do anything. sounds great.

[Lateralus]

and so your proposal is to just not do anything. sounds great.
I don't have enough information to make a real proposal. I just don't like our current strategy, that's all.

[Ferrus]

I think it will take a couple generations before the extremism subsides in the Middle East. We need to extremists to die off naturally. Killing them will only create more.
Except the seeds of it date back to the 18th century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Abd-al-Wahhab), and it is rather presumptuously Western to assume that in a couple of generations Middle Easterners will 'see the light', accept West values and 'progress' - especially when we consider the era of Western ascendence has been relatively brief in contrast to the Weltschauung that has remained steadfast in the Middle East for 1500 years.

[Lateralus]

Propaganda can be a wonderous thing. No one is immune to it. We just need to be more better. :P

I wasn't thinking they would start to love the West, just that they wouldn't hate it as much they do right now. Maybe booyalab is right and I'm just giving people too much credit. How non-misanthropic of me!

[Ferrus]

How non-misanthropic of me!
I said you were a rank traitor and I was right! :grin:

[meanlittlechimp]

Are you fucking kidding me? Are you unaware that they're trying to kill US?

Why do you think they are trying to kill us?

Are you saying the solution is to throw more troops into the region? Topple more governments?

It's not just a question of Islam driving forward their fanaticism. If a foreign power, kicked everyone out of texas, and gave the land back to the native americans (which they have far more claim to, than jews have for Israel); then proceeded to arm them with nuclear weapons. Do you think Americans wouldn't retaliate? Of course they would. Except when they use advanced military weapons, it's justfiable warfare. If we didn't have the advanced military we do, the US would probably resort to "terrorist" tactics.

They'll stop trying to kill us when we stop overthrowing their goverments. It's that simple.

[Dr. Haight]

You guys are killing me right now.

[Ferrus]

and so your proposal is to just not do anything. sounds great.
There a preventive measures, but such measures have to be commensurate with the degree of risk. The number of lifes at risk from terrorism are minute compared to - say - cancer, or crime or even traffic incidents.

And such a proposal is far better than taking action which only deliberately fans the flames of hatred and thus exacerbates the risk. Turning Iraq into a canker and a ready made training ground for terrorists, when before it was, at the very least a nusiance with little or none terrorist activity to report, was evidently - or at least evident to all except those, such as yourself who can only see things through ideologically tinted googles - an act of great folly.

[sandwich]

oddly dispersed verses? have you seen the mythbusters son o a gun episode? a women would rather bleed to death than have a doctor look at her shot wound in the abdomen..

Have not seen this episode, but it sounds like you're using the same logic you're accusing me of below (and this lady sounds more Christian Scientist than anything). I could go on on this subject, but I'll just say that as a practicing Christian woman who grew up in a practicing Christian community, I have not experienced attempts of subordination.

and i havent heard of any muslim stoning recently.. ive seen homosexuality rampant in egypt.. and jordan.. my parents tell me that its so bad in saudi arabia that families feared more for theyre boys walking down the street.. then they did there girls..

I guess I have heard of recent development in those areas. But in other places like Palestine or the pre-US tampered Afghanistan the case wasn't so.

and the same can be said for islam... take a stroll down any street in cairo.. jordan.. lebanon.. syria.. plenty of prostitution.. plenty of boyfriend girlfriend girls wearing swimsuits people speak of iran being full of sharia squads yet they still have sigas going on... and drugs are everywhere.. bad news makes good news and anything the media can take and blow up they will splash all over the headlines... library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/tmpmrig.htm theres one article backing my siga argument...

I don't know about Lebanon (other than Beruit's lingerie market) or Syria, but I didn't see any prostitution or exposed feminine skin in either Cairo or Jordan. My cultural sight-seeing in Jordan was mostly isolated to Mecca Mall, but I got around to several different parts of Cairo. I know that there's much much more to the city, but you did say any street so ;P

replace doesnt have to mean replace.. but when you start passing laws that make homosexual marriages and abortion illegal then your imposing the bible on the people

Pathetic attempts, I doubt many people expect any success there. It was a very general statement for her to make, but applies to the majority.

where are honor killings prevalent in the middle east? last time i was in egypt my gf cheated on me with my best friend who told me she was too ugly for me.. ive lived in egypt.. jordan.. saudi arabia and qatar.. havent seen or heard one story of honor killings.. ofcourse you can say its never reported and they hide it and then we can say aliens landed in rosewell and it wasnt reported and they hide it

Alright, you've already made it obvious that you move in more secular circles and that you need a new best friend. My condolences for the latter, that's pretty brutal. I don't doubt that these stories have come from the more rural of areas, but I do know that they still occur and only in the last decade or so have governmental officials, even in the countries you mention, taken preventive measures.

she had plenty of time to talk.. looked to me like cat got her tounge most of the time.. he laid it down pretty thick and her responses were retarded.. again.. note what i said.. islamophobia isnt limited to anti-islam.. its also anti arab..

I don't know, I usually get flustered if someone constantly interrupts me. He's a very rude person, and it seems that she's used to politer society. I think that saying "there is no such thing as islamophobia" is a hard line to take, but, as I didn't say but meant to before, she first gained the status she has now in the Netherlands, where there is a strong Arab and Muslim presence. Even so, larger airports in the US will intentionally not notice arabs and instead take apart the luggage and thoroughly wand down a very white teenage girl and snatch her fingernail clippers and shampoo :mad: (travel size should be travel-able!). I do believe that islamophobia exists in Hollywood and internet forums, but it's very significant to note that it is not specifically allowed in the government. What American Arabs experience is no different than the treatment of other minorities: unfortunate, but it too will pass.

[Stoned_Rider]

They'll stop trying to kill us when we stop overthrowing their goverments. It's that simple.
Understood. So, when do you reckon they will stop trying to kill people from Britain, Germany, France, Spain, Canada, Turkey, Australia, Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq etc.. etc...?

[isquishplatano]

oddly dispersed verses? have you seen the myth busters son o a gun episode? a women would rather bleed to death than have a doctor look at her shot wound in the abdomen..

Have not seen this episode, but it sounds like you're using the same logic you're accusing me of below (and this lady sounds more Christian Scientist than anything). I could go on on this subject, but I'll just say that as a practicing Christian woman who grew up in a practicing Christian community, I have not experienced attempts of subordination.

i guess the point im trying to get across which didnt come out very clearly.. is that Islam now is what Christianity was 100 years ago... and less than 2 generations from now.. islam will be watered down like Christianity is today.. and less than 2 generations from now you will see openly gay priests and a women pope.. religions are being watered down.. Christianity got its exposure to western culture and got watered down.. islam is on the same path.. look at Muslims in America.. they eat non halal food. .and drink.. among other things..

and i havent heard of any muslim stoning recently.. ive seen homosexuality rampant in egypt.. and jordan.. my parents tell me that its so bad in saudi arabia that families feared more for they're boys walking down the street.. then they did there girls..

I guess I have heard of recent development in those areas. But in other places like Palestine or the pre-US tampered Afghanistan the case wasn't so.

pre-us tampered afganistan isn't arab.. they are all Islamic extremist whacos who banned kite flying!!! and i don't believe any such things happened in Palestine.. ud be surprised.. most girls in palestine dont even cover theyre hair.. my parents came from there and they didn't become religious till they came to America.. again.. its always bad news makes good news and one or two stoning in a rural area splashed across the media is all t takes to make it seem like its an everyday occurence.. like the bridge collapse fear mongering.. u never know when that bridge under you might give way!

and the same can be said for islam... take a stroll down any street in cairo.. jordan.. lebanon.. syria.. plenty of prostitution.. plenty of boyfriend girlfriend girls wearing swimsuits people speak of iran being full of sharia squads yet they still have sigas going on... and drugs are everywhere.. bad news makes good news and anything the media can take and blow up they will splash all over the headlines... library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/tmpmrig.htm theres one article backing my siga argument...

I don't know about Lebanon (other than Beruit's lingerie market) or Syria, but I didn't see any prostitution or exposed feminine skin in either Cairo or Jordan. My cultural sight-seeing in Jordan was mostly isolated to Mecca Mall, but I got around to several different parts of Cairo. I know that there's much much more to the city, but you did say any street so ;P

near ma'adi mcdonalds right across the street under the bridge ;)
ull see girls wearing hoodies.. i saw this in my own eyes... a guy park his car and come out pick a girl nd walk her back to his car...

go to genena mall and ull see bf's gf's.. go to cairo airport and its funny to see all the people walking arround with cases of beer... go to any hotel and watch the richers check in with young girls

replace doesnt have to mean replace.. but when you start passing laws that make homosexual marriages and abortion illegal then your imposing the bible on the people

Pathetic attempts, I doubt many people expect any success there. It was a very general statement for her to make, but applies to the majority.

last time i checked its illegal for gays to get married or join the military ;)


where are honor killings prevalent in the middle east? last time i was in egypt my gf cheated on me with my best friend who told me she was too ugly for me.. ive lived in egypt.. jordan.. saudi arabia and qatar.. havent seen or heard one story of honor killings.. ofcourse you can say its never reported and they hide it and then we can say aliens landed in rosewell and it wasnt reported and they hide it

Alright, you've already made it obvious that you move in more secular circles and that you need a new best friend. My condolences for the latter, that's pretty brutal. I don't doubt that these stories have come from the more rural of areas, but I do know that they still occur and only in the last decade or so have governmental officials, even in the countries you mention, taken preventive measures.

i guess thats true to a certain point.. but ive also lived in more rural areas like king mariut in egpyt.. and the most ive seen is a guy beating his son in the chest with a 3 inch thing long pole because he was caught stealing from someones farm.. dont recall his hand being chopped off ;)

bringing up alladin.. a KID movie where the princess gives an apple to the kid because hes hungry.. and the store owner grabs her hand to cut it off? over an APPLE? cmon u cant tell me kids werent conditioned to think arabs are savages ;) and lets go on to popeye.. they took sinbad! a childhood cartoon favorite and turned him into a bad guy!! they made sinbad bluto :rofl:

she had plenty of time to talk.. looked to me like cat got her tounge most of the time.. he laid it down pretty thick and her responses were retarded.. again.. note what i said.. islamophobia isnt limited to anti-islam.. its also anti arab..

I don't know, I usually get flustered if someone constantly interrupts me. He's a very rude person, and it seems that she's used to politer society. I think that saying "there is no such thing as islamophobia" is a hard line to take, but, as I didn't say but meant to before, she first gained the status she has now in the Netherlands, where there is a strong Arab and Muslim presence. Even so, larger airports in the US will intentionally not notice arabs and instead take apart the luggage and thoroughly wand down a very white teenage girl and snatch her fingernail clippers and shampoo :mad: (travel size should be travel-able!). I do believe that islamophobia exists in Hollywood and internet forums, but it's very significant to note that it is not specifically allowed in the government. What American Arabs experience is no different than the treatment of other minorities: unfortunate, but it too will pass.

explain this en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kifah_Jayyousi

[nonperson]

wow.. just wow.. so democracy is the reason israel's economy is doing so well huh? most absurd statement ive heard to date.. without the backing the united states and all the other international contributers.. israel would fall flat on its ass.

oh yea democracy is working wonders for the us economy

Yes Israel does receive a considerable amount of military support from the US.

But look at Israel's technology sector, where is the Arab equivalent?

The greatest shame is that the Arab civilisation which during the middle ages made great strides in mathematics, astronomy, and architecture has been reduced to what it is today. In Arab Spain Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived happily together

I didn't say democracy is perfect. I am only throwing stones into the pond to see the ripples!

[meanlittlechimp]

Understood. So, when do you reckon they will stop trying to kill people from Britain, Germany, France, Spain, Canada, Turkey, Australia, Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq etc.. etc...?

I don't think us pulling out of Iraq will end all war on the planet. It would help lessen overall violence eventually though.

It's hard to set back the clock now and say everything will be great after the clusterfuck that has already been created. It would take a lot more than just one action (like pulling out of Iraq) to cause stability and peace in the region, but it's a step closer. Actually allowing them to keep their elected democracies; intead of coup d'etats and installing monarchies and dictatorships would be another.

But it's undeniable, that the major forces that caused the scenario - were direct US and British actions in the last 80 years.

[isquishplatano]

Yes the Israel does receive a considerable amount of military support from the US.

But look at Israel's technology sector, where is the Arab equivalent?

The greatest shame is that the Arab civilisation which during the middle ages made great strides in mathematics, astronomy, and architecture has been reduced to what it is today. In Arab Spain Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived happily together

I didn't say democracy is perfect. I am only throwing stones into the pond to see the ripples!

what have jews been doing for 100's of years?
thousands even?
banking!

[isquishplatano]

I don't think us pulling out of Iraq will end all war on the planet. It would help lessen overall violence eventually though.

It's hard to set back the clock now and say everything will be great after the clusterfuck that has already been created. It would take a lot more than just one action (like pulling out of Iraq) to cause stability and peace in the region, but it's a step closer. Actually allowing them to keep their elected democracies; intead of coup d'etats and installing monarchies and dictatorships would be another.

But it's undeniable, that the major forces that caused the scenario - were direct US and British actions in the last 80 years.

if the vietcongs had a way to bring the fight to america they would have.. people claim that if we pull out everything will magically fix itself.. i find that highly unlikely.. ittl take alot of education to fix the hard asses american and arab mindsets

anyways.. who the hell actuallly wants a stable middle east? wed rather have it that sore wound whose scab we keep picking at just for fun to keep em on there tip toes ;)

[nonperson]

what have jews been doing for 100's of years?
thousands even?
banking!

Good one! :theclap:

But as a learned INTP you will know that in the past in some countries banking was the only profession open to the Jews.

[isquishplatano]

they actually made it into a movie...

http://www.sonypictures.com/classics/merchantofvenice/flash.html

[nonperson]

they actually made it into a movie...

http://www.sonypictures.com/classics/merchantofvenice/flash.html

A barbed bard put-down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[isquishplatano]

much pun intended ;)

first thing that popped into my head when you said only profession open to them.. lol

[NightCrawler]

I find your stance interesting, since you fail to consider ideas like the Divine Right of Kings.

Say what now? I am just repeating what Muslim professors have taught in Middle Eastern politics classes.

[nonperson]

much pun intended ;)

first thing that popped into my head when you said only profession open to them.. lol

And I just noticed you are an F and not T.

[meanlittlechimp]

if the vietcongs had a way to bring the fight to america they would have.. people claim that if we pull out everything will magically fix itself.. i find that highly unlikely.. ittl take alot of education to fix the hard asses american and arab mindsets

anyways.. who the hell actuallly wants a stable middle east? wed rather have it that sore wound whose scab we keep picking at just for fun to keep em on there tip toes ;)


How exactly are they fighting us here anyways? The trade center ain't shit. We had far more casualties in the Vietnam war. Fight us here? Wow, you must be tired of all the fighting you're having to do. Drunk driving and gun laws do more damage than terrorists. If they really could fight us here, we wouldn't have invaded. "Fighting us here", is a bullshit slogan concocted by some staff member under Karl Rove, to scare little old laides in the midwest and south into voting for their party.

We only attack countries that can't fight us here. That's the point of the foreign policy strategy. We haven't fought a country that could "fight us here" since WWII.

I don't think it would be magically fixed. We ended up pulling out of Vietnam, because we knew we couldn't win that war. The same reason, you can't hold Iran without constant violence. If 80% of the population wants you out, you're going to lose every time, unless you're ready to kill them all.

In both cases, 80% want us out. Not only Iraq but the entire Arab world, and then some. The average European thinks we have no right to be there (because they generally have far more awareness of history and current events than the average american). The majority of Asians, Eskimos and Russians or in other words, the majority of the human population, except one.....

Dumb right wing americans and a few misguided "liberals".

[isquishplatano]

And I just noticed you are an F and not T.

sadly :sadbanana:

just kidding!!! i like being raped by everyone arround me because of my niceness!!!!

[meanlittlechimp]

I don't mean to attack you specifically (I don't even think you really believe what you are implying), I just go into a rabid frenzy when I hear anyone stating the often repeated mantra by the Bush Administration - about fighting them there, so they don't fight us here.

You're probably 15 years old, and even if you're not, how can you go off on someone with an avatar of children sledding. I feel like a big jerk.

[isquishplatano]

I don't mean to attack you specifically (I don't even think you really believe what you are implying), I just go into a rabid frenzy when I hear anyone stating the often repeated mantra by the Bush Administration - about fighting them there, so they don't fight us here.

You're probably 15 years old, and even if you're not, how can you go off on someone with an avatar of children sledding. I feel like a big jerk.


dude please reread my post(s).. and also take a closer look at my avatar ;)

[dubbeltop]

dude please reread my post(s).. and also take a closer look at my avatar ;)


Dubbeltop takes a closer look...and hurts his eyes.....:stupid:

Where is my laywer ????

[isquishplatano]

Dubbeltop takes a closer look...and hurts his eyes.....:stupid:

Where is my laywer ????

i think you should invest in some glasses ;)

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/3020/xtremistsuj9.jpg

[nonperson]

Dubbeltop takes a closer look...and hurts his eyes.....:stupid:

Where is my laywer ????

I am glad you asked; I couldn't read it either!!!!! :theclap:

[isquishplatano]

wow this forum is dead.. lol

[Ferrus]

Indeed, this sort of drivel I'd expect to find any where else... but here?