China Regulates Buddhist Reincarnation

[Faust06]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20227400/site/newsweek/

I loled.

[Ellipsis]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20227400/site/newsweek/

I loled.

As did I....

Wow.....

[Krill]

Makes me think of the Vogons.

[Anonymous]

Makes me think of the Vogons.

Made me think of the Great Schism.

[joft]

i was just talking to Pooja about this and she brought up a good point: the same thing basically worked against the catholic church.

during the Babylonian captivity of the papacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_Captivity_of_the_Papacy) there were 3 different popes, and the catholic church lost a lot of legitimacy among the people

that's basically what the chinese government wants, 2 dolly llamas

[Karl]

Yeah, even if it's the government's fault, well, there's a sort of divine thing going on that the government shouldn't be able to mess up, as with the popes. Why would God let there be three popes and at the same time tell the popes to say that they're all the only true pope? Either God is deliberately trying to confuse people, the government is more powerful than God, or the whole idea of a pope is inaccurate.

Of course there are more possibilities but most people won't bother to think further.

[vulcan]

They can come to America and learn from Patrick Swayze, the Bodhi himself.

http://abes-celebrities.com/patrick_swayze_3.jpg

[earwax]

So, when the Dalai Lama dies, and they find his "replacement"... will the Chinese arrest the kid for re-incarnating without a license?

BTW - I've been thinking about calling my next band the Salvador Dali Lamas... what do you think?

[HilbertSpace]

i was just talking to Pooja about this and she brought up a good point: the same thing basically worked against the catholic church.

during the Babylonian captivity of the papacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_Captivity_of_the_Papacy) there were 3 different popes, and the catholic church lost a lot of legitimacy among the people

that's basically what the chinese government wants, 2 dolly llamas

Where it differs is that the schisms in the Catholic Church (as I remember it) originated in and played off of internal politics. As I understand Tibetan Buddhism, that's not an issue. The Chinese will have to outlaw following the official 15th Dalai Lama and only allow their own. It's certainly not going to have an effect outside of occupied Tibet, and even within the country I don't think many of the people consider the Chinese government arbiters of the born-again Buddha.

[HilbertSpace]

So, when the Dalai Lama dies, and they find his "replacement"... will the Chinese arrest the kid for re-incarnating without a license?

BTW - I've been thinking about calling my next band the Salvador Dali Lamas... what do you think?

It'd be better with Llamas.

[earwax]

Doh! Yeah, I meant the wooly-haired South American ruminant. I should've have been more cognizant of the different spellings.

[Ferrus]

Babylonian captivity of the papacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_Captivity_of_the_Papacy) there were 3 different popes, and the catholic church lost a lot of legitimacy among the people

The existance of the antipopes wasn't really a cause of the Reformation, though it did leave a bad taste in the mouths of much of the laity - such dissatisfaction finding its earliest expression in Lollardy in England, the new reformist groups in Rome and Hussitism in the Czech lands - but the real result was a change in political circumstances. The papacy had, since Gregorian times tried to foisted itself on the rest of Christendom as an universal monarchy, and in so doing they were able to destroy much of the power of the Holy Roman Empire (c.f. Canossa). But, the bickering between popes gave power to the King of France - who was after all generously guarding a supposedly legitimate Pope in Avignon - and indeed the attempts of the papcy to curb the English and Spanish thrones, which had undergone some success, was reversed. And though the Emperor was weakened, his underling Princes found more scope for power. This destruction of Gregorian papacy meant that when specific circumstances - see Luther's railing against fundraising in Saxony or Zwigli's challenges to the Zurich elite - meant when a demagogic figure came to capture the imagination of the elites, the elites were effectively able to excise themselves from the Papacy's clutches. The printing press was of course essential here as well, in as much as it allowed Protestant ideas to be disseminated in such a way as to covert a great number of the population, which would often force a wavering ruler's hand.

[Karl]

Tibet has a somewhat similar situation. The buddhists had a lot of power in Tibet previously to Chinese influence and they could be fairly corrupt. So China has gone in and replaced it with... Chinese corruption?

Oh well.

[stopharian]

So, when the Dalai Lama dies, and they find his "replacement"... will the Chinese arrest the kid for re-incarnating without a license?

BTW - I've been thinking about calling my next band the Salvador Dali Lamas... what do you think?

Not as far fetched as it may seem. The Panchen Lama who is the second highest Tibetan lama with his seat of power being in Shigatse was supposedly reborn within the last 10 years(I dont remember exactly when). The Chinese did infact find and incarcerate the boy and hand pick another Panchen Lama at their own whim. The official(by the standards of Tibetan Budhism)Panchen lama is still missing, wherabouts unknown, in the hands of the Chinese government.

Edit: he was arrested in 1995 and at that time was know as the worlds youngest political prisoner

Here is more info. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panchen_Lama

[stopharian]

Tibet has a somewhat similar situation. The buddhists had a lot of power in Tibet previously to Chinese influence and they could be fairly corrupt. So China has gone in and replaced it with... Chinese corruption?

Oh well.

The Tibetan situation isnt even remotely similar.

The budhist regime was not know to be particularly corrupt in any sense. They were ruling under an almost feudal system of government. Nor is corruption a major issue with the chinese control of Tibet today. China is only mildy corrupt when compared with most nations in Asia, Latin America, and Africa. However they are extremely oppressive religiously. The Standard of living has improved greatly under Chinese rule and investment, the trouble is that to bring these improvements to Tibetan lives the chinese only had to kill and torture half of the Tibetan population(a number approaching 1,000,000 people).
Today the Chinese government exerts total control politically over tibet yet little or no control religiously. Almost all tibetans illegally carry a picture of the Dali Lama who lives in exile in Dharmasala india with the Beastie Boys, and if you ever go to Tibet many of the Tibetans will ask you for a copy of his photo. The Chinese understand that they have no control over the hearts and minds of the Tibetan people so the have no taken up a program of financial inducements for Ethnically han Chinese to settle in Tibet. This has continued to a point whereby The Chinese now outnumber Tibetans in Tibet and it will continue untill perhaps one day the Tibetans will be no more.

[stopharian]

http://www.presscluboftibet.org/UserFiles/potala_palace.jpg

[Karl]

The Tibetan situation isnt even remotely similar.

The budhist regime was not know to be particularly corrupt in any sense. They were ruling under an almost feudal system of government.

Well, besides feudalism being inefficient and exploitive...

A lot of people do think it was very corrupt. I do see the religious groups speerheading the exploitation in the semifuedalist fashion before China came in.


China is only mildy corrupt when compared with most nations in Asia, Latin America, and Africa.

Considering the state of the world right now, being "mildly corrupt" when compared to other countries isn't a great accomplishment. Yes, China is far from the worse global power today or the most exploitive of its citizens.


The Standard of living has improved greatly under Chinese rule and investment, the trouble is that to bring these improvements to Tibetan lives the chinese only had to kill and torture half of the Tibetan population(a number approaching 1,000,000 people).

"Exporting the revolution" to people who don't don't want it can't achieve democracy.

[stopharian]

Well, besides feudalism being inefficient and exploitive...

A lot of people do think it was very corrupt. I do see the religious groups speerheading the exploitation in the semifuedalist fashion before China came in.



Considering the state of the world right now, being "mildly corrupt" when compared to other countries isn't a great accomplishment. Yes, China is far from the worse global power today or the most exploitive of its citizens.



"Exporting the revolution" to people who don't don't want it can't achieve democracy.

Karl, at this point I honestly have no sense of what point it is that you are trying to make.

Previously it seemed like you were trying to insinuate that the state of affairs in Tibet has continued fairly consistently in Tibet with one set of corrupt rulers being replaced by another set of corrupt rulers all the while the populace standing by and not caring because the change in governance in effect had little or no impact on their lives politically, culturally or spiritually. If this is in fact the point you were trying to make then I again say....back it up because it is utter rubbish.

This is not a latin american country experiencing the 152nd coup in 155 years. No matter what side of the conflict you are on, I doubt that there is anyone worldwide, who is at all knowledgeable about the Tibetan conflict, who would say that there are any equivalences of political ideology or implementation amongst the Tibeten and Chinese regimes that have ruled Tibet. Additionally, in this day and age it is fairly apparent even to the chinese that there is little or no equivalence in the government support and additude that the Tibetan people show for the Chinese and Tibetan Regimes. From whatever perspective you take the upheavals that have been experienced in the past 50 years in Tibet are as diametric as any that have faced any group of people in the history of mankind. To say that thing continue on barely changed their is a bald faced refusal to recognize reality.

Additionally and I state this again: Corruption is not nor has it been one of the main stumbling blocks facing the Tibetans. Whether or not you agree with chinese claims of territory or budhist thought matters not, No level headed person is accusing the Dali Lama of corruption. You say "A lot of people do think it was very corrupt." I guess I would have to challenge you to give some evidence or a citation as to who. In fact Other than yourself, it would be interesting to know another person making this claim.

On a side note it would be fairly easy to guess what an independant Tibet might look like today. In fact we have the example of Bhutan right next door which for all intents and purposes is Tibetan(linguistically, religiously,culturally, geographically, and politically). Whats Bhutan like? a cesspool of corruption? Actually social psychologist have long suggested that when adjusted for income, bhutan is the happiest nation in the world.citation (http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-07/uol-uol072706.php) Of course this measure is fairly rough but I think we can be assured that the Bhutanese are not repressed or exploited.

Im not sure I understand your point about China.

Im not sure I understand your point about expoting the revolution............"If we export communist revolution to those who dont want it they will never gain democracy" I ll agree with that. I would eve go so far as to state that if we export comunnist revolution to those who do want it the y will probably not gain democracy:think:

In short Im not sure you really have any grasp of whats going on in Tibet. Sure feudalism is inefficient and exploitive........but when you compare it to Chinese communism since the 40s which is responsible for the deaths of 60 million people including half of the population of Tibet, Feudalism looks like a pastoral utopia, and in no way is it an unnoticed exchange of governance.

[Karl]

Previously it seemed like you were trying to insinuate that the state of affairs in Tibet has continued fairly consistently in Tibet with one set of corrupt rulers being replaced by another set of corrupt rulers all the while the populace standing by and not caring because the change in governance in effect had little or no impact on their lives politically, culturally or spiritually. If this is in fact the point you were trying to make then I again say....back it up because it is utter rubbish.

I agree that that would be rubbish.




Additionally and I state this again: Corruption is not nor has it been one of the main stumbling blocks facing the Tibetans. Whether or not you agree with chinese claims of territory or budhist thought matters not, No level headed person is accusing the Dali Lama of corruption. You say "A lot of people do think it was very corrupt." I guess I would have to challenge you to give some evidence or a citation as to who. In fact Other than yourself, it would be interesting to know another person making this claim.

Hm, well, if you do a google search for "tibet corrupt" you'll come across some varying points of view about it. I'm not saying that advances my argument, but you're acting like it's an unheard of position.

I'd like to start out by explaining that I think feudalism, particularly when headed by a church, is inherently corrupt. People are prevented from having control over their life and the money goes into the church, while not to developing industry or things that would actually benefit the people. Progress is stagnant and people don't seek it because of how hard they're striving materially and religiously.

Here's one example of someone who is critical of the pre-china tibet:
http://www.china.org.cn/english/Tibet/22857.htm

I could give you other things I've read if you'd like.



In short Im not sure you really have any grasp of whats going on in Tibet. Sure feudalism is inefficient and exploitive........but when you compare it to Chinese communism since the 40s which is responsible for the deaths of 60 million people including half of the population of Tibet, Feudalism looks like a pastoral utopia, and in no way is it an unnoticed exchange of governance.

That's what I'm trying to say... There were issues of corruption and economic stagnation, which were interwoven, BEFORE the chinese went in, and that was their justification. However Tibetans haven't made signifigant gains and it could be argued that they've faced less freedom. (I remember reading about many of them being forcibly relocated to larger communities)

What I'm saying is that there were some pretty bad problems that needed to be remedied, and the Chinese have done a pretty job remedying those problems, but some of the effort has been sincere, and I do believe this new law is a sincerely meant effort to reduce religious corruption.

[stopharian]

Your quoting the @#$%@ China Daily?

[stopharian]

Here is a neutral article re:the China Daily from Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Daily
I guarantee its the best write up that they will ever get let me quote a few tidbits

The China Daily is an English-language daily newspaper published in the People's Republic of China. The Communist Party of China-controlled state-run publication has the widest print circulation (200,000 per issue) of any English-language newspaper in the country......


......According to a foreign editor working at the China Daily (see Leaking State Secrets), a high degree of self-censorship is practised by journalists at the paper. Subjects such as Taiwan, Tibet and the religious group Falun Gong are usually "too sensitive" for regular reporters to cover, and articles have to be approved by higher authorities before publication. This often leads to a delay of several days between the occurrence of major news events and their reportage in the paper.

The editor of the China Daily, Zhu Ling, has told foreign editors that the paper's editorial policy was to support the policies of the Communist Party and only make criticism of the authorities if there was deviation from Party policy......

The china daily seriously reads like the onion. Its a joke paper that chinese people use to practice their english.

[Karl]

If I haven't gotten back to you by, say, sunday, PM me or something and remind me to address this. I always get into a discussion and then get busy...