Do Plants Have "Feelings"?

[indie]

Interesting article I came across: Plant Feelings (http://www.inq7.net/lif/2003/jun/24/lif_22-1.htm)

As per the title "Experiments *prove* plants have feelings," I don't know. . .

This is not the first time I've heard the story of the plant murderer student eliciting a polygraphic response from the plant, so perhaps there is some validity. At the same time, however, it seems quite unbelievable.

What do you think?

[Division56]

My mother told me about this, she has a degree in horticulture.

And she was in school back in the 80s, so it must have been known for a long time.

[Lee]

Answer: No

edit: actually I just asked my carrots and they felt so upset that I might need to even ask they refused to answer.

[songbird36]

Course they do.

Broccoli pounds angrily on the back of your throat when it's been swallowed (take note of that, Claverhouse)..

[Hypnos]

Asparagus tastes too good for me to care. Like bacon.

[indie]

TY, Div, for at least lending a little bit of credibility to my post. Ugh, people, I was being serious! :)

What kind of mechanism allows a plant to express anxiety? Also, what means of information does the plant use to gather information about its surroundings, and thereby sense danger? An advanced method of gathering "scent" or "sight," maybe. . . but I think it's something more.

DAMMIT! Now I have to feel bad for those trees who know they're about to be enveloped in a huge forest fire.

[CoHo]

It really depends on how scientific they were, and I'm guessing they were high.

I mean, did they try the brine-shrimp concept with a bunch of different plants? Did they try it with a monkey? Did they try it with a card-board box? Did they use dead brine shrimp, or a bucket of liquefied shrimp?

I see very little science in that article. Science isn't supposed to find an answer or truth. A theory is the possible outcome of a series of tests. To me it looks like they were trying to find an answer and as soon as they did they stopped. What they should have done is recorded it as an anomaly and tried further tests specifically on that.

[Division56]

She said that the results had shown that the plants also react when someone has the intent to injure them. Fascinating stuff, it is.

[Utopmk]

I heard stories aout my great grandmother talking to the plants and veggies in her garden as if they were people. I also heard that it helped them grow.

[Utopmk]

There is also this weed/fern/whatever that you could run your finger up the stem and the middle of, ever so gently and it curls up as to protect it's self.

Not proof of feelings, but it always fascinated me.

[shum]

i saw a documentary of an experiment years ago in which a plant was shown to react to the pain experienced by a human. i should look for more details of this study.

" An advanced method of gathering "scent" or "sight," maybe. . . but I think it's something more." - maybe it is just basic?

of course plants feel. doesnt everybody feel? even if there is no voice there is still feeling.

[flan2dave]

Why would dead shrimp stress out a plant? Dead organisms add more nutrients to the soil.

[Elro]

She said that the results had shown that the plants also react when someone has the intent to injure them.

Interesting.. I'm gonna look into this further.

..What would the vegetarians say?

[CoHo]

Quackery!

The Aura phenomenon doesn't imply feelings.

Plants may have natural reactions but there is nothing to suggest they have the capability to be angry, sad, happy or fearful. Even the plant and music relationship hasn't been proven to any degree (well I haven't seen anything published from a reputable source).

Until there is some real data I consider this pseudoscience. All I see is a couple of scientists that wanted to make a book so they tried a few experiments to promote their “theory”.

[Dunearhp]

If a tree falls in the forest, should the others be given counselling?

[Biff_Loman]

As a heterotroph, I couldn't care less if plants have feelings.

[YardGnome]

And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest.
And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil.

One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear.
And terror possesed me then.
And I begged,
"Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?"
And the angel said unto me,
"These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!
You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them
it is the holocaust."
And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of
one million terrified brothers and roared,
"Hear me now, I have seen the light!
They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul!
Damn you!

[Boneca]

I have my doubts about this study. As flan2dave said, why in the world would a plant care about a dead shrimp?

As for plants having feelings...well, certainly not the way we know them. They do have a hormonal system that responds to external stimuli, just like us (but with different hormones naturally). But they don't have a central nervous system that is comparable to our brain, so there is no knowing how a plant would experience varying hormonal levels.
Flowering plants are quite complicated organisms, and not necessarily more primitive than us, but since they are so fundamentally different I don't think we can put human attributes to them.

(Makes me wonder about the poor tomato plants that we cut, poisoned and starved in plant physiology class though...maybe they hated us.)

[indie]

If a tree falls in the forest, should the others be given counselling?

:rofl:

That one is *definitely* going on the "Collective Wisdom of INTP Central" thread in a future update.

[j4ck]

..What would the vegetarians say?

http://www.hotralston.com/wheatfield.gif
Concentration camp

[Arcades]

my question is: are the people doing the testing want there to be feelings so much that they themselves causing the readings?

If you put a plant in the box next to the cat and close the lid.. are they dead befor you open the box and look upon them again?

[Forloren]

The whole concept makes me laugh. This experiment was done around 1974? With a polygraph? If I understand a polygraph correctly (which I found on the web), it measures blood preasue and pulse, resperation, and skin conductivity. Since plants have no blood and no lungs, they only used the "conductivity" sensors, basicaly looking for the electrical resistance of the plant, which is what they said in the article..

The only thing they proved, if even that, is that under certain circumstances (the dumping of brine shrimp) the electrical resistance in plants can change. But what causes that change? In humans, we have hormones and brain chemicals and such that effect our mood and emotions. Did the death of the shrimp cause some chemical in the plant to be released, changing it's electrical conductivity? The experimenters found what they thought of as some sort of cause and effect relationship, but instead of finding out what causes the relationship, they came up with their own idea that fit what they were looking for. There was no INTP on that research team it seems.

-Forloren

[Sackanaka]

"Ah, it seems plants do have feelings after all."

"Dude, you do realize this makes all of us even greater assholes than before."

Then impose the Hamlet soliloquy upon the rest of humanity, except it being about being vegan.

[moni]

Of course plants have feelings!! DUH! Hasn't anyone seen "Ferngully"??

kidding kidding, interesting article though... i wouldn't be surprised if they did have some sort of sensory that we don't know about.

[Chicken]

This reminds me of a time when these highly religious people told me that plants had feelings. They described how their enlightened friends would go around hugging trees and connecting with them psychically.

Interestingly enough, ever since I saw a special on NGC (Nation Geographic Channel) about the umbrella trees on the sarengeti plains of African, I was amazed. From then on I've been pretty convinced that plants have some form of recognition and intelligence that we just can't understand. It was one of those Epic Tree Moments.

Anyhow, back on about the plants. I've seen some studies done on kirlian photography and the capturing of electromagnetic fields (auras). I wonder very much if someone could get a kirlian photograph of negative, neutral, and positive interactions with plants and see how the aura between the plant and the human or animal react. I know there have been studies done on human-human electromagnetic field interaction, and it's really quite amazing (in my opinion). I wouldn't be surprised if plants could acknowledge electromagnetic fields. They do generate them, afterall.

Check this out:

http://www.kirlian.org/kirlian2.htm

The "Human Relations in Kirlian Images" is very interesting indeed.

Of course, I have to wonder if the mixing of auras is due to body temperature increase or something similar. Then again... maybe not

[j4ck]

T I wouldn't be surprised if plants could acknowledge electromagnetic fields. They do generate them, afterall.

Well, plants do bend toward sunlight. I don't know if I would classify that as emotion, though...

[Edmond Zedo]

Guy: "Bro, we should hook the lie detector up to the plant."
Bro: "No. No. Heh. Heh. No way."
Guy: "No, no, I think we should. Heh heh."
Bro: "No. *falls over laughing* *gets up* No way"
Guy: *hooks electrodes up to plant* "It's fucking moving, man, check it out"
Bro: "No way. *falls over laughing* Dude, I need one of those, um *falls over laughing*"
Guy: "Heh. Heh. What. What do you need, bro. Heh. Heh."
Bro: "The thing on the plant. The clip."
Guy: "Heh heh. Oh, right *detaches alligator clip, passes it over*"

[PsiKik]

To some we can't eat animals because of their feelings etc,
now it appears we can't eat plants 'cos they have feelings too.
What can we eat?
Then it hit me, fruit!
After a bit of googling I found there are indeed people who eat only fruit.
Wonder what the health implications are?

[moni]

But since a fruit is the "ripened ovary of a flowering plant" wouldn't it hurt for the plant since it's ovaries are being taken out? I dunt know... sounds like it'd be painful if mine were removed.

[PsiKik]

I thought plants wanted you to take the fruit and spread the seeds. Is the juicy fruit flesh an incentive to an animal to take the seed somewhere else or is the fruit flesh needed by the seed to grow?

[In...TP]

nip it in the bud

[moni]

I thought plants wanted you to take the fruit and spread the seeds. Is the juicy fruit flesh an incentive to an animal to take the seed somewhere else or is the fruit flesh needed by the seed to grow?

ah, good point there.

[Dman]

To some we can't eat animals because of their feelings etc,
now it appears we can't eat plants 'cos they have feelings too.
What can we eat?
Then it hit me, fruit!

(thinks for a minute)

Aren't there fruits that grow on plants...and plants have feelings...

you're safest bet is to eat dirt and rocks

[j4ck]

(thinks for a minute)

Aren't there fruits that grow on plants...and plants have feelings...

you're safest bet is to eat dirt and rocks

But bacteria...LIVING BEINGS FOR CHRIST SAKE...live in dirt and rocks! You are a sick man.

[Boneca]

But since a fruit is the "ripened ovary of a flowering plant" wouldn't it hurt for the plant since it's ovaries are being taken out? I dunt know... sounds like it'd be painful if mine were removed.Wait until the anti-abortion crowd get to this. Fruits may contain fertilized seeds!

[Dman]

But bacteria...LIVING BEINGS FOR CHRIST SAKE...live in dirt and rocks! You are a sick man.

naturally I was referring to moon dirt and moon rocks. What do you think I am!?

and don't forget, those moon dirt and rocks must be gathered and prepared by the person wishing to eat them - people need to know exactly where their dirt and rocks are coming from and how they've been treated.

[Sackanaka]

taking aspirin? Bastards!
brushing your teeth? Monster!
having a fever? Sadist!
releasing your bowels? :-x
You guys are all bacteriocidal sickos-

[Shai Gar]

i need to piss

[solemn sistah]

Don't tell my plants their roots look big in that pot.
Got it.

[Llewellyn]

Quackery!

The Aura phenomenon doesn't imply feelings.

Plants may have natural reactions but there is nothing to suggest they have the capability to be angry, sad, happy or fearful. Even the plant and music relationship hasn't been proven to any degree (well I haven't seen anything published from a reputable source).

Until there is some real data I consider this pseudoscience. All I see is a couple of scientists that wanted to make a book so they tried a few experiments to promote their “theory”.

Am I the one to give a serious answer?

We are beings not that different from plants (or any being). Do we know what our feelings are? We call them angry, sad, happy, fearful. But it's about what's underneath that. What is the perceptual basis? These plants have to face many of the same things as we do.

Isn't last point in above quote really INTPish?

See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Life_of_Plants

[djm]

Plants have clear responses to stimuli, and can detect when damaged. So to answer the OP they have the ability to 'feel' and react to their external environment, and the ability to interact with biotic organisms and also abiotic stimuli. The nature of their 'feeling' is largely chemical, so the type of feeling is different but they do 'feel'.

Plants are vastly more complex than animals from a genetic and chemical standpoint, and far less is known about their physiology than the physiology of mammals, insects and fungi.

[Ratatosk]

They have about as much feelings as your average INTP. So no, not really.

[cripple]

They have about as much feelings as your average INTP. So no, not really.

If not more, INTPs dont even need sun to shine.

[EmmaPeel]

Is this on INTPcentral?

[Llewellyn]

Is this on INTPcentral?

An INTP will consider anything!?

[Delilah]

My plant said this thread is making it want to slap people.

[edge walker]

If a tree falls in the forest, should the others be given counselling?
Epic win. Thread is over.

[overainbows]

A high school biology teacher I had commented about it once. People laughted hard at him! I got very interested, I don't know the name of the book in english (i think it was by a north-american researcher, not sure) but he said the name was the 'Secret life of plants' (my free translation from my language). I'll try to find it.

It's not actually feelings... by what I remember he said it couldn't be feelings as we know it since plants don't have a neural system like ours. It was called so because of the response plants gave to things like a recording left all day long cursing them or another one saying they were beautiful, according to it they would have negative or positive responses, so they kind of could 'feel' agressive or positive stimuli... something like it. Off course they couldn't understand what was being said, but it's possible they could distinguish agressiveness.

[overainbows]

Yes, the name in english is what I said. Well, by the article in wikipedia it seems a little too paranormal to me, doesn't seem that serious, anyway I'd like to read the book to know how it's conducted...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Life_of_Plants

But again I don't think it's feelings, IT CAN'T BE!

[Nomadofthehills]

Plants do not have feelings.

[MerieM]

To some we can't eat animals because of their feelings etc,
now it appears we can't eat plants 'cos they have feelings too.
What can we eat?
[...]

Mmm, their & they refers to some.
Well, I hope the solution is not: XXTX people :)

[hoodrich84]

hah! how hard can it be to understand that plants have feelings too?
You guys just found out? OMG!! I've been knowing this since I was five years old.

[hoodrich84]

no seriously,

I think that every nutritious object that we eat has some kind of internal feelings that the naked eye cannot see. I also think that plants have energy and energy= uncontrolled cosmic feelings that only god can explain and understand

things we eat and can rot if we dont eat: p.s. [life&death=living things](plants have a lifespan dont they?)

examples:
pig,
cow,
beef,
carrots,
humans,
dinosaurs,
cowshitandEyeballs from tv series: fear factor
(cowshit energy comes from the bacteria within the shit)

The majority of you INTPs are a bunch of a-h0les! have some respect will you?

disregarding every phenomenal issues as if LeBron James is an alien sent from outer-space to play basketball

[puzzled-observer]

This is nonsense! Plants don't have feelings. You need some kind of a nervous system to have feelings. Plants don't have nervous systems. Case closed.

Edit: Note: I consider that "Feelings" are different than "Senses". I.e. Plants have senses in that they sense where the sun is and grow towards it. This is purely a chemical reaction and does not involve a consciousness or feeling. Feelings are a direct consequence of a nervous system. That's the purpose of the nervous system. If none is present, no feeling is present.

[Toonia]

Plants do react to their environments. David Attenborough has a series of interesting documentaries with stop-motion filming so the process of plant competition and interaction is more visible.

As far as talking to your plants and such, I suspect that those people invested enough to chat it up with their plants are going to be extra attentive to providing sunlight, water, and fertilizer for plant growth. Those who are emotionally distressed are likely more distracted and overlooking plant care. In that way plants (like anything) demonstrate a reaction to the effects of feelings, but probably not along the lines of empathy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9MV5CgPgIQ

[augi55]

[youtube]video[youtube]

FYI: Doesn't work.

[nonrandian]

And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest.
And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil.

One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear.
And terror possesed me then.
And I begged,
"Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?"
And the angel said unto me,
"These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!
You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them
it is the holocaust."
And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of
one million terrified brothers and roared,
"Hear me now, I have seen the light!
They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul!
Damn you!

tool is badass

-----------------

do plants even have a nervous system?

even if they could feel as a sense... i don't think it's possible they could 'feel' emotionally...

[Llewellyn]

This is nonsense! Plants don't have feelings. You need some kind of a nervous system to have feelings. Plants don't have nervous systems. Case closed.

Edit: Note: I consider that "Feelings" are different than "Senses". I.e. Plants have senses in that they sense where the sun is and grow towards it. This is purely a chemical reaction and does not involve a consciousness or feeling. Feelings are a direct consequence of a nervous system. That's the purpose of the nervous system. If none is present, no feeling is present.

Plants can have a large effect on our central nervous systems (psychoactive plants, medicinal plants, and so on). And there is research in the direction that they do have something like a nervous system themselves (at least signals are being processed). Both things would have to make one take into consideration that indeed they might have.

As feeling is a rational (judging) function we should indeed talk about sensations rather than feelings.

Edit: and since plants apply many systemic signals one can even consider them to have emotions (still not feelings).

Edit 2: And then, they do have to decide somehow how to react to their perceptions. This implies at least some rationale. The main question is whether any of this happens consciously.

[puzzled-observer]

Plants can have a large effect on our central nervous systems (psychoactive plants, medicinal plants, and so on). And there is research in the direction that they do have something like a nervous system themselves (at least signals are being processed). Both things would have to make one take into consideration that indeed they might have.

As feeling is a rational (judging) function we should indeed talk about sensations rather than feelings.

Edit: and since plants apply many systemic signals one can even consider them to have emotions (still not feelings).

Edit 2: And then, they do have to decide somehow how to react to their perceptions. This implies at least some rationale. The main question is whether any of this happens consciously.

1. Firstly, I don't see how the fact that medicinal plants have an effect on our nervous systems is evidence for the fact that they have one. There are plenty of chemical compounds that have effects on our nervous systems.

2. I find it odd that we're only just now discovering the nervous system of the plant (you'd think it'd be a fairly obvious discovery), but I'm not saying you're wrong about that.

3. Nobody contests that plants have sensors on them that cause various responses. -- What do you mean by emotions, exactly? The common definition pretty much requires that you have some kind of consciousness to have them. I'm pretty sure it's very safe to say that plants aren't conscious. They don't decide how to react to their perceptions. It's programmed in. It's a purely chemical response. There's only one possible thing that the plant could do, and I'd bet that it could be (or has already been) completely modeled by a computer program.

[Dman]

This thread takes me back.

So, how about lichen? Do they qualify as having feelings too? Algae? Diatoms?

For those who believe plants have "feelings", where is the line? Or do you believe diatoms have feelings also?

[floid]

Do Plants Have "Feelings"?Perhaps a better question would be:

Do humans have any way of conclusively knowing whether or not plants have feelings?

I'm going to guess that in all probability, considering our current capabilities, the answer to that question is so unclear as to be functionally irrelevant.

So when you tiptoe through the tulips you can probably be pretty sure that you're not offending them, or, if you are, you will never know it.