INTPs of different enneagram types

[asdfasdf]

For those who know their enneagram types and accept that system to some degree, what does it mean to be an INTP of enneagram type X? Does your enneagram type lead to an exaggeration of certain stereotypical INTP characteristics, or does it make you feel like an unusual INTP? What's it like to be an enneagram type X INTP?

[Edmond Zedo]

It seems to me that whether one is Self Preservation, Sexual, or Social variant has a real effect on ones obvious personality (Based on forum members). And we don't seem to lean toward one overall.

[cjs55]

I could see 5w6s leaning more towards being INTJs, and 5w4s leaning closer to being INFPs (still within the INTP framework, don't freak out!)

And I agree with Zedo.

Everyone should really put their Ennegram in their sig, as it could be very interesting to be able to analyze posts/personalities with that in mind.

[Serotonin]

I guess I'm qualified to answer this to some degree...
I read somewhere that INTPs are almost always 5w4, 5w6 or 9w1. An exception could be Shai Gar, who seems like a cp6w5. 5w4 seems to be the most common of these three. To answer your question, I'm very happy being a 5w4. The rich imagination, the appreciation of the idiosyncratic and the ability to inhabit moods are both a blessing and a curse.
I know 2 female 9w1 INTPs, my mother and my housemate. Both are wonderful people. They don't have the highly-strung mood of 5s and they are better at relating to people and navigating the real world. But they don't quite have the strange depth that 5s have.
Here's some information on 5s.


Fives - Fine Distinctions
Five With a 4 Wing
The difference between the 4 wing and the 6 wing in Fives is like the difference between Art and Science. 4 wing brings an abstract, intuitive cast of thought, as though the Five were thinking in geometric shapes instead of words or realistic images. May be talented artistically and inhabit moods like Fours do. Combine intellectual and emotional imagination. Enjoy the realm of philosophy and beautiful constructs of thought. The marriage of mental perspective and aesthetics is the best of life for them.


When more defensive may seem a little ghostly, have a whisper in their voice. Fluctuate between impersonal withdrawal and bursts of friendly caring. Can get floaty and abstract. Act like they're inside a bubble, sometimes with an air of implicit superiority. Cliché of the "absentminded professor" applies especially to Fives with this wing.


Environmentally sensitive and subject at times to total overwhelm. Touchy about criticism. Can be slow to recover from traumatic events. Melancholy isolation and bleak existential depression are possible pitfalls.


Real-Life Fives With a 4 Wing: Laurie Anderson, Samuel Beckett, Paul Bowles, Tim Burton, David Byrne, Agatha Christie, Daniel Day-Lewis, T.S. Eliot, Albert Einstein, Jeremy Irons, Philip Kaufman, Gary Larson, George Lucas, David Lynch, Peter Matthiessen, Ian McEwan, Thelonious Monk, Georgia O'Keefe,


Movie Fives With a 4 Wing: Jeff Bridges, The Fabulous Baker Boys; Kerry Fox, An Angel At My Table; Glenda Jackson, Turtle Diary; Gena Rowlands, Another Woman; Dean Stockwell, Tucker - A Man And His Dream.


Five With a 6 Wing
The 6 wing brings an orientation to detail and technical knowledge, along with the tendency to think in logical sequence. Especially intellectual, far more analytical than Fives with a 4 wing. Can be loyal friends, offering strong behind-the-scenes support. Kind, patient teachers, skillful experts. May have a sense of mission and work hard.


Sometimes project an aura of sensitive nerdiness and have clumsy social skills. When defensive, they can be unnerved by the expectations of others. May like people more but avoid them more. Especially sensitive to social indebtedness. Could have trouble saying "thank you." Fear of taking action, develop "information addiction" instead. Ask lots of questions but don't get around to the decision at hand.


When more entranced, they develop a suspicious scrutiny of other people's motives but can also be blind followers. Misanthropic and Scrooge-like when defensive. More able to keep their feelings cut off in a constant way. Can be cold, skeptical, ironic, and disassociated.


A Five's 6 wing can be phobic or counterphobic. Counterphobic 6 wing brings courage and antiauthoritarian attitudes. When defensive they may mock authority, or angrily tell others off. Tend to "push the envelope," experiment, find what the limits are.


Real-Life Fives With a 6 Wing: Michael Crichton, Bobby Fischer (counterphobic), Jane Goodall, H.R. Haldeman, Arthur (The Amazing) Kreskin, John le Carré, Vladimir Lenin, Leonard Maltin, Sam Neill, Michelle Pfeiffer (counterphobic), Oliver Sacks, Ebenezer Scrooge, B. F. Skinner, George Stephanopoulos, Madeleine Stowe.


Movie Fives With a 6 Wing: Bernard Pierre Donnadieu, The Vanishing; Ben Kingsley, Turtle Diary; Peter O'Toole, Goodbye, Mr. Chips; Ally Sheedy, Only The Lonely; James Spader, sex, lies and videotape; Hugo Weaving ("Martin"), Proof; Robin Williams, Awakenings.



CONNECTING POINTS (Stress and Security)
Five's Connection to 7
The healthy side of this connection brings enhanced imagination and some social skills to a Five. It may spur them to seek adventure, whether intellectual, physical or social. Can have a positive outlook, be less self-conscious. A curiosity that helps them explore the world. May be quite funny, and display an engaging playful enthusiasm. Cheerful interest in things, stay mentally alive in old age. Capacity to savor the moment, yea-saying. Sometimes have a streak of generosity.


Unhealthy connection related to the way Fives can go abstract and schizoid. Social undependability and increased difficulty with commitment. May elusively jump around in their thoughts, scatter their attention into empty interests. Tendencies toward living in the future, greed and dilettantism. Use humor to disassociate or trivialize. Action taken sporadically and for strange reasons. React from different subpersonalities, lose their center. Play mind games for diversion, trying not to feel. Weird phobias and issues about appetite possible.


Movie Fives who demonstrate this connection: Bernard Pierre Donnadieu, The Vanishing; Kerry Fox, An Angel At My Table; Anthony Hopkins, 84 Charing Cross Road; Tommy Lee Jones, Lonesome Dove; Ben Kingsley, Turtle Diary; Ally Sheedy, Only The Lonely; James Spader, sex, lies and videotape; Robin Williams, Awakenings.



Five's Connection to 8
Healthy connection helps Fives access raw instinctual energy and aggression. They take charge of situations that would otherwise overwhelm them. Lusty, pushy core of Eightishness helpful to withdrawn people. Brings sexuality and physicality, moral and social courage. They state their needs, initiate contact, get things done. Helps Fives translate knowledge into action. They take risks, become initiators instead of observers.


Low side of this connection reinforces antisocial hostility. Fives can get nasty, punitive and severe with others. Unhealthy Eightish tendencies toward sneering and ridicule may come into play and support a standoffish, go-to-hell attitude. Aggression in the service of maintaining distance. Protecting what little they have. Cold, disassociated behind-the-scenes control. Bursts of nastiness. Can also turn Eightness against themselves. Criticize, yell at and persecute themselves. Leads to stricken self-consciousness and paranoia.


Movie Fives who demonstrate this connection: Michel Blanc, Monsieur Hire; Jeff Bridges, The Fabulous Baker Boys; Albert Finney, Scrooge; Michael Keaton, Batman, Batman Returns; Jerry Lewis, The Nutty Professor; Peter O'Toole, Goodbye, Mr. Chips; Al Pacino, The Godfather Part II; Alastair Sim, A Christmas Carol.


*


SUBTYPE THEMES
Self-Preservation
Chief defensive tendency is to withdraw. Sensitive to feeling saturated by the world, Fives with this subtype lose their sense of privacy easily. Can feel knocked over by people's expectations. In isolation they refind their lost sense of balance and build up to the next round of social stresses. More alienated than the other subtypes. May hide in books, live alone or need their own room where they can close themselves off. Take little from others. Sometimes thin. Likely to hoard time and space. Have solitary hobbies and interests, seek comfort and solace alone. Examples include: Kerry Fox, An Angel At My Table; Gena Rowlands, Another Woman; Robin Williams, Awakenings.



Intimate
Intimate Fives trust only a few people but then do so totally. Friendship is based on the sharing of confidences. Intimacy is equivalent to exchanging secrets. Can go from enigmatic, deliberate distance to intense, unguarded openness. Seductive invitation to sharing secrets; seek a total merging. When entranced can be a little kinky.


A great movie example is James Spader in sex, lies and videotape. Sharing intimate sexual secrets is what he gets women to do on videotape. Both Monsieur Hire and Mr. Lemorne in The Vanishing show this theme albeit perversely. Ben Kingsley in Turtle Diary also enjoys secrecy and is a little more normal.



Social
Social Fives connect with groups of like-minded people. Enjoy living in the flow of a group interest, sharing knowledge and affiliations. May prefer specialized or esoteric areas of knowledge that exclude all but the initiated. Could live in high society, know the "right" people, belong to the best clubs. Might enjoy speaking a professional language that few people understand. Can be quite friendly but, at times, terrific snobs. Romanticize secret elitist group membership; concerned with titles, degrees, credentials, etc. Realm of academia.


Peter O'Toole in Goodbye, Mr. Chips is a good movie example. Also, Anthony Hopkins in 84 Charing Cross Road.

[INTrPosr]

Does your enneagram type lead to an exaggeration of certain stereotypical INTP characteristics, or does it make you feel like an unusual INTP? What's it like to be an enneagram type X INTP?
If the majority of people result in 5w4 or 9w1, then the enneagram type descriptions would run counter to some of the INTP descriptions like being an absent minded professor type or the reclusive nerdy type. This conjures images of Monk, Columbo or Rick Moranis' role in "Honey I Shrunk The Children". I see INTPs on average being moody, melancholic, artistic and creative. That seems to be the 5w4 type.

[pintpi]

I have also noticed that there seem to be sub groups of INTPs, I'm not sure if enneagram type distinguishes those sub groups, as I haven't studied the enneagram theory at all but by the description Serotonin posted it looks like there could be something to that. I took a online enneagram test awhile ago (result was 5w6) and I couldn't really relate to the description it had for that type but the 5w6 description above is pretty close.

I have always been somewhat suspect of enneagram because it seems so imprecise and seems to come more from the Freud side of psychology rather than the more analytical Jung side but seeing those descriptions, I might have to look into it a bit more.

[Edmond Zedo]

If the majority of people result in 5w4 or 9w1, then the enneagram type descriptions would run counter to some of the INTP descriptions like being an absent minded professor type or the reclusive nerdy type. This conjures images of Monk, Columbo or Rick Moranis' role in "Honey I Shrunk The Children". I see INTPs on average being moody, melancholic, artistic and creative. That seems to be the 5w4 type.
I like your Columbo and Moranis references, but Monk, being completely insane, is not a good choice for type study.

[INTrPosr]

I wanted to add that I am in complete agreement with Serotonin's comments that many INTPs are 5w4 or 9s on the enneagram. So, I find it ironic that some INTPs scoff at feeling types when 4s are the most feeling type of the enneagram and 9s are the most empathetic.

[cathmc]

From an INTP, 9w1: I would say 9s are empathetic in the sense that they can understand and see the validity of different points of view (kind of INTPish isn't it), not so much in a warm way of feeling other's pain. (Though I think I read somewhere that Clinton could be a 9...) And, 9s have a strong desire to get along with everyone and avoid conflict, so they may not be as empathetic in their deepest thoughts as they seem on the survace.
BTW - I have found the enneagram in some ways more useful than the MBTI b/c it focuses less an action and more on motivation - different types may do the same things, but they are doing it for different reasons. The basic desire/basic fear descriptions really hit home for me. FWIW.
Have been reading some different threads and thought of a specific answer to your original question 'what is it like to be an INTP type x'? I never identify with the feeling of intellectual superiority or the non-desire to interact with certain types that I see in a lot of posts. This is probably due to the 9 quality of wanting peace and harmony and everyone to get along. So maybe that's what makes an INTP 9 different from, say an INTP 5?
p.s. not to say this is better - the need to get along w/ everyone in the entire universe creates a crippling lack of assertiveness that I've only managed to address recently...

[Lee]

Everyone should really put their Ennegram in their sig, as it could be very interesting to be able to analyze posts/personalities with that in mind.Wouldn't it be more fun to guess http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/alttongue.gif

[jyakulis]

I never seem to get consistent results on any enneagram test....

[CosmicDust]

Let's see...I'm most likely a 5 with a VERY strong phobic 6 wing, to the point of practically being a "5 1/2". I can get so caught up in details that I sometimes wonder if I'm an SJ, even though I'm very indecisive like a P. I also think I'm "more of a thinker than an intuitive" - even intuitive concepts can be put through a crash test of analytical thinking before considering them as strong possibilities to integrate into my mental construct, unless those concepts arose in my own mind out of previous analytical crash tests.

I happen to fit fairly well into the "academic nerd" stereotype, except I don't do a zillion puzzles and stuff. I'm not a genius, but that has little to nothing to do with personality types. I am enough of a rational thinker, and distant enough from the interpersonal feeling exchange much of the time, that my dad has long joked that Spock is my real father.

With the really strong phobic 6 wing combined with a dominant social instinct, I cannot easily hide the fact that I really do care what other people think. I've something akin to a 6ish "inner committee" which is a combination of superego and social consciousness - e.g., I'll anticipate what other people might think of potential actions I take, particularly on the message boards where I live out most of my social life these days.

EDIT 3/24: in the light of recent events, I've changed my mind back to thinking my 6 "half" is dominant. In any case, like typical phobic 6s, I have the inner committee and the lack of trust in my own thoughts, yet I tend to analyze everything including my emotional reactions. Many of the above descriptions still apply. I'm like a 5 except without the arrogance, and like a 6 except without the degree of emotional engagingness usually associated with 6s.

[Architectonic]

So, I find it ironic that some INTPs scoff at feeling types when 4s are the most feeling type of the enneagram and 9s are the most empathetic.

They do?

Although that observation may also point out inconsistencies in the enneagram type theory...

[misutii]

i'm a 4w5... with even some 3 tendencies... and in many ways it sucks, woe be me... and the sp doesn't help
i've been known to be aloofly self-destructive in the most romantic of ways... smiles make me sneeze

[coffeezombie]

Usually one's enneagram wing is what they score second highest on when testing. I think reading the descriptions is better, though. Four-wing Fives usually have issues with a strong feeling side. Six-wing Fives usually have issues with authority and/or anxiety in some way.

[Serotonin]

I don't scoff at feeling types, I scoff at histrionic sissy fits.

I haven't been able to determine my enneagram wing type. I fit almost all of the descriptions for 5w4 and 5w6. The test I took said 5w6 but I'm not entirely sure, the 5w4 description seemed pretty accurate. As far as the sp/sx/soc, I'm pretty sure I'm sp, but I haven't really done any research on that besides read the descriptions posted earlier.

Anyone have any ideas on how to figure out my enneagram wing?

Well first you have to make sure which point you are. Most INTPs are 5s but some aren't. Read about each one and then make your decision.

Say you come out as 5.
You are more likely to be a 5w4 if:
- You get moody
- You much prefer abstraction to pragmatism or practicality
- You like complex artworks, pieces of music, sculptures, poems that can be interpreted on a number of levels, because of their emotional as well as intellectual impact.
- You can appreciate melancholy as a thing of beauty as well as pain.

You're probably a 5w6 if:
- You're more attracted to systems, engineering, pure science.
- You have a pragmatic streak.
- You think that technical mastery of a skill is the pinnacle of human achievement.
- "Goofball nerd" is a more appropriate description of you than "existential angsty loner".

[Sally]

Most recently, I scored 5w6 and 5w9. Definitely motivated by fear. One reason I tend to lurk on this board is because it's so argumentative. :} Somehow, in an environment where we have a better chance of understanding each other... There's more conflict. There's not that cushioning effect of trying to interpret the other person's emotions, trying to understand their motivations. The assumption is solidarity, so the differences are more startling and more offensive, and the similarities carry their own burdens.

But back to the subject - the catchphrases of 5w4 like "absent-minded professor" and "marriage of mental perspective and aesthetics" appeal to me, but reading the descriptions - I am definitely a 5w6.

[FishOutOfWater]

I believe that a majority of INTPs are 5s, and more are 5w6s then 5w4s. That's not to say that there aren't a large number of INTP 5w4s, but 5w6 is simply a more common type. INTP 5w4s usually have a stronger feeling side than INTP 5w6s, and INTP 5w6s usually have more access to their sensing side than 5w4s. (5s of either wing can also be INTJs, but INTJs can also be 1s, 6s, 8s, 9s, and even 3s!) I also know of a few INTP 9w1s, and I see an INTP 6w5 with a strong 5-wing as possible as well - I believe there's one on the board that stems from the enneagram institute.

As my sig says, I am a 5w6 with very high social and sexual variants. In real life I try to act like I'm just well adjusted and smart, but I know I'm more nerdy, emotionally edgy, and withdrawn than I like to perceive myself. Oh well, you can't always win.

[CosmicDust]

I see an INTP 6w5 with a strong 5-wing as possible as well - I believe there's one on the board that stems from the enneagram institute.

Me? :o But I thought you thought I was a 5...change your mind? If so, it's about damn time. ;)

I can't think of any others I've seen around here.

[Thermo]

I took this test...
http://www.9types.com/cgi-bin/ennea/score.pl


I got these results...
Enneagram Type Indicator Results
Your highest score will indicate you basic type, or it will be among the top 2-3 scores. You have answered all the questions -- terrific!

Type 1 Type 2 Type 3 Type 4 Type 5 Type 6 Type 7 Type 8 Type 9
5 1 5 3 8 5 2 4 3


The Nine Personality Types of the Enneagram
Type 1: The Reformer. The rational, idealistic type.
Type 2: The Helper. The caring, nurturing type.
Type 3: The Motivator. The adaptable, success-oriented type.
Type 4: The Artist. The intuitive, reserved type.
Type 5: The Thinker. The perceptive, cerebral type.
Type 6: The Skeptic. The committed, security-oriented type.
Type 7: The Generalist. The enthusiastic, productive type.
Type 8: The Leader. The powerful, aggressive type.
Type 9: The Peacemaker. The easygoing, accommodating type.

What does it mean? Am I a 5w1? Is there a better test to take?

[CosmicDust]

Tests are not always conclusive. I originally tested as a 5 with 3 second and 1, 4, and 6 tied for third. So I originally naively thought "5w3" until I learned you had to choose a wing, then I went with 5w4 since someone suggested it but kept my possibilities open, then 5w6, and then hopping between 5w6 and 6w5. I may still be in that last stage, but when I'm feeling like I do now, I'm really wanting to just declare 6 permanently despite all doubts and protests and get it over with, since so much of my internal and external process has not fit the pattern for a 5.

Moral of the story: you can't trust a single test to tell you your type. Learning about the E through books, websites, and discussions might help you get more insight into your type, as well as watching your own process unfold.

Also, the wing is always an adjacent type, either 4 or 6 for 5, no matter what - that's how the theory works. If you want to defy it...fine. It could be crap. I don't know anything...

[cathmc]

Thermo: Looks to me (tho I'm just a dabbler, no expert) like you're a 5w6, as you were clearly higher on 5. Your wing is one of the types on either side of your main type so you can't be a 5w1 - you weren't so far apart between 6 and 4 so that could be worth looking at the descriptions. That's the best way to decide anyway...read descriptions and see where the most things ring true for you. Esp. the stuff about basic fears and basic desires.

[Thermo]

Definitely Applies:
5.) Thinker

Somewhat Applies:
1.) Reformer
8.) Leader
6.) Sceptic <- not really sure


Definitely Doesn't apply:
2.) Helper
3.) Motivator
4.) Romantic
9.) Peacemaker

I guess this means I am a 5w1, 5w8 or 5w6. I think the original 5w1 is probably most accurate, but I will read some more on it.

[MacGuffin]

I guess this means I am a 5w1, 5w8 or 5w6. I think the original 5w1 is probably most accurate, but I will read some more on it.Um, no. Read the couple of posts before this one. 5w6 is the only valid choice under enneagram theory.

[INTrPosr]

I posted these comparisons somewhere else here, but it seems like a good time to bring them back up, since they may help in making some determination for some who prefer one point to another.

Types Five and Nine. Observers and Mediators can be considered look-alike types because both types can be retracted and introverted, thoughtful, unobtrusive, and even seem to be invisible. Both can withdraw or pull back from being overly influenced by their surroundings. The differences are Observers habitually detach from others and assert their boundaries in self-protection. Mediators are least able to detach from others, habitually blend with others, and go along with others to keep life harmonious and comfortable.

5 & 9 STRESS POINTS

Types Six and Seven. Loyal Skeptics and Epicures can look alike because as wings of each other and as head center types they share some of the same personality traits. Both are mentally quick, often sharp witted, analytical, imaginative, and able to interrelate diverse ideas. The differences are Epicures put a ""positive spin"" on their experiences, planning for multiple positive possibilities, abhor limits and seek to expand their options. Their pleasure and personal wants are primary. Loyal Skeptics put a ""negative spin"" on experiences, seeing worst case possibilities and pitfalls. Loyal Skeptics welcome reassuring limits and seek to gain certainty. Loyal Skeptics pleasure and personal wants are secondary concerns.

5 & 9 SECURITY POINTS

Types Three and Eight. Performers and Protectors can be considered look-alike types, because both are assertive, determined, action-oriented and goal-oriented, and willing to take charge. They also can radiate competence and confidence and may inadvertently step on anyone who gets in their way. The differences are Protectors will hold to a position, get confrontational, and express anger directly and easily. Performers' anger mostly comes up when they feel obstructed in getting to a goal. Performers will shift gears, alter themselves, and change direction somewhat like chameleons to get goals accomplished.

[FishOutOfWater]

Me? :o But I thought you thought I was a 5...change your mind? If so, it's about damn time. ;)

I can't think of any others I've seen around here.

No, it wasn't you I had in mind. I was thinking of Slider, whose name I couldn't recall at the time.

[CosmicDust]

No, it wasn't you I had in mind. I was thinking of Slider, whose name I couldn't recall at the time.
Oh...okay, but there's been talk about her possibly being a 9w8. Also, she hasn't posted here in a while (or I haven't seen the posts 'cause I haven't been active enough lately), was banned from one Enneagram board and quit another...

[Biff_Loman]

Well first you have to make sure which point you are. Most INTPs are 5s but some aren't. Read about each one and then make your decision.

Say you come out as 5.
You are more likely to be a 5w4 if:
- You get moody
- You much prefer abstraction to pragmatism or practicality
- You like complex artworks, pieces of music, sculptures, poems that can be interpreted on a number of levels, because of their emotional as well as intellectual impact.
- You can appreciate melancholy as a thing of beauty as well as pain.

You're probably a 5w6 if:
- You're more attracted to systems, engineering, pure science.
- You have a pragmatic streak.
- You think that technical mastery of a skill is the pinnacle of human achievement.
- "Goofball nerd" is a more appropriate description of you than "existential angsty loner".

According to this, I am clearly a 5w6. It is time to edit my sig.

[coffeezombie]

According to this, I am clearly a 5w6. It is time to edit my sig.

Yeah, lots on here. As soon as I start hearing someone talking about their love of computer programming languages the six-wing alert goes up in my head.

[Melange]

I get 5w4 usually but sometimes 5w6 or even 9w1 depending on tests

[mgb]

If people find enneagram to be a beneficial addition to MBTI, it may mean that as a personality theory, MBTI is somewhat incomplete.

[garak]

If people find enneagram to be a beneficial addition to MBTI, it may mean that as a personality theory, MBTI is somewhat incomplete.
Isn't that pretty much a given? Could any personality typing system ever really be complete?

[mgb]

Isn't that pretty much a given? Could any personality typing system ever really be complete?

Dare to dream.

Enneagram seems to have a lot of variants though. I mean, most of us test as a 5 or 9. Then the wings can be something else, 1, 4 or 6, or even something else. Then you have the sp/sw stuff. It seems to account for many of the differences between INTPs, but now we have a theory that has maybe 10 to 15 types of INTPs.

If you combine that with the other types you end up with 160-240 types. That's a lot.

I'll grant that and INTP of any enneagram is probably more similar to another INTP than an ESTJ, but obviously the shortfall of MBTI has people looking to divide up the MBTI into other sub-types.

Without seeming like I am writing of MBTI, how many sub-types are needed before MBTI starts to look incomplete?

[garak]

I dunno, no personality typing system could ever be complete, so I don't really even think about it that way. I figure that the more ways (MBTI, enneagram) we have to categorize and examine ourselves, the better off we are. Maybe they could somehow be combined, but it'd take someone smarter than me to do it in a way that doesn't seem like a kludge. I see no problem.

[polyethylene]

I'm 4w5. I guess that makes me a weird INTP? :huh:

[MaroonBells]

Dare to dream.

Enneagram seems to have a lot of variants though. I mean, most of us test as a 5 or 9. Then the wings can be something else, 1, 4 or 6, or even something else. Then you have the sp/sw stuff. It seems to account for many of the differences between INTPs, but now we have a theory that has maybe 10 to 15 types of INTPs.

If you combine that with the other types you end up with 160-240 types. That's a lot.

I'll grant that and INTP of any enneagram is probably more similar to another INTP than an ESTJ, but obviously the shortfall of MBTI has people looking to divide up the MBTI into other sub-types.

Without seeming like I am writing of MBTI, how many sub-types are needed before MBTI starts to look incomplete?

true, lot's of combi's, not sure if it is therefor more accurate, if that is what you're saying

if there are 9 ennea types, with 2 wing options each and 3 variants, then you get 9*2*3 = 54 different ennea types unless my math is off. with 16 mbti types there are 864 combinations.

but i do not find the enneagram a useful tool, as i can't find a match within its wing/ flank limitations (see "enneagram is full of s^#t" thread). the only one i am sure of is the sexual variant.

[abathur]

I tested once, don't remember the exact numbers but I came out 5 with even 4/6 scores. I think the 5w4 description fits best. Guess I should look up something about the variant crap you people keep mentioning O_o

[sasapurdue]

When i take that test I always test equal on wing 6 and wing 4 and after reading the descriptions I think that is right I have a lot of qualities from both. so that makes me a straight 5 i guess?????

[garak]

The only thing I really pay attention to in the enneagram is sp/sx/so. I definitely can see how that is valid, and learning of it was a big addition to my thought process concerning personality types. But the number crap just seems like a waste of time to me.

[abathur]

The only thing I really pay attention to in the enneagram is sp/sx/so. I definitely can see how that is valid, and learning of it was a big addition to my thought process concerning personality types. But the number crap just seems like a waste of time to me.

Is the sp/sx/so stuff something some of the tests return (the one I took just gave me numbers)? link? :)

[garak]

Is the sp/sx/so stuff something some of the tests return (the one I took just gave me numbers)? link? :)
Sorry, not sure. You don't really need a test anyways. :P Just understand what they mean and do some analysis for yourself.

[cathmc]

There's a test for the 'instinctual variants' (so/sp/sx) at http://www.enneagraminstitute.com. But it costs something like 7 bucks! I agree with mack, you can self-assess. Enneagram purists would say you shouldn't rely on tests or tools for any of it, it's supposed to be about self-analysis leading to self-discovery.
But since I myself did cough up the 7 bucks, I'll get you started with the explanations given in the test results of the three variants:

The Social Instinct in GeneralMost of us are aware that we have a social component, but we tend to see it as our desire to socialize, to attend parties, meetings, belong to groups and so forth. The Social Instinct, however, is actually something much more fundamental. It is a powerful desire, found in all human beings, to be liked, approved of, and to feel safe with others. On our own, we are rather weak and vulnerable, and can easily fall prey to a hostile environment. We lack the claws, fangs, and fur of other animals, and if we did not band together and cooperate with each other, it is unlikely that our species—or we as individuals—would be able to survive. Being able to adjust ourselves to others and to find ways to be acceptable is a fundamental, survival-based human Instinct.

People who have a dominant Social Instinct are preoccupied with being accepted and necessary in their world. They are concerned with maintaining the sense of value they get from participating in activities with others, be they family, group, community, national, or global activities. Social types like to feel involved, and enjoy interacting with others for common purposes.

On entering a room, Social types would be immediately aware of the Power structures and subtle "politics" between the different people and groups. They are subconsciously focused on others' reactions to them—particularly about whether they are being accepted or not. They are attuned to the notion of "place" within a hierarchical social structure, both in regard to themselves and to others. This can manifest in many ways, such as the pursuit of attention, success, fame, recognition, honor, leadership, appreciation, as well as the security of being part of something larger than themselves. Of all the Instinctual Variants, social types like to know what is going on in their world; they need to "touch base" with others to feel safe, alive, and energized. This can range from an interest in office politics or neighborhood gossip to world news and international diplomacy. We could say that the Social Instinct is a kind of contextual intelligence: it gives us the ability to see our efforts and their effects in a broader context.

Generally, Social types enjoy interacting with people, although, ironically, they tend to avoid intimacy. As with all of the Instincts, if the person becomes unhealthy, the Instinct manifests as its opposite.
Unhealthy Social types can become extremely antisocial, detesting
People and resenting society, and as a result, may have poorly developed social skills. They fear and distrust others and cannot get along with people while at the same time are unable to disengage from their social connections. In brief, Social types focus on interacting with people in ways that will build their personal value, their sense of accomplishment, and their security of "place" with others.

When the other two Instincts dominate in an individual and the Social
Instinct is the least developed, attending to social endeavors and commitments does not come naturally. Such individuals have difficulty seeing the point of creating and sustaining social connections, sometimes disregarding the impact of the opinions of others. Their sense of involvement with their community, at any scale, may be minimal. They often have little connection with people, feeling that they do not need others and that others do not need them. Thus, there may be frequent misunderstandings with allies and supporters, as well as friends and family members.

The Self-Preservation Instinct in General
Most people can easily identify this Instinctual Variant.
Self-Preservation types are preoccupied with getting and maintaining physical safety and comfort, which often translates into concerns about food, clothing, money, housing, and physical health. These issues are their main priority, and in pursuing them, other areas of their lives may suffer.

For example, we might identify this Instinctual Variant in ourselves or others by observing what a person would first notice upon entering a room.
Self-Preservation types tend to focus on the comfort of the environment.
Does the environment support their sense of well-being? They are quick to notice and respond to poor lighting, or uncomfortable chairs, or to be dissatisfied with the room temperature and are constantly adjusting these things. They may wonder when their next meal or coffee break will come, worry if there will be enough food, or if it will be the kind they like, or if it will meet their dietary requirements.

When this Instinct is functioning harmoniously with the personality type, these people can be earthy and practical. They apply their energies to taking care of basic life necessities—creating a secure environment, shopping, maintaining the home and workplace, paying bills, and acquiring useful skills so that the orderly flow of life will not be interrupted.
When the personality becomes unhealthy, however, it distorts the instinct, causing these people to take poor care of themselves, possibly developing eating and sleeping disorders. They may "stock up" on too many things, over-buy, over-eat, and over-purge themselves of unnecessary "baggage" of all sorts.

Less healthy Self-Preservation types "let themselves go" physically, or they become obsessive about health and food matters, or both. Further, their normal practicality and financial sense may become distorted, resulting in problems with money and organizing their affairs. If the
Self-Preservation Instinct becomes completely overwhelmed by personality issues, individuals may engage in deliberately self-destructive behavior in which the Instinct has the effect of turning against itself.

When the other two Instincts dominate in an individual and the Self-Preservation Instinct is the least developed, attending to the basics of life does not come naturally. It will not always occur to such individuals that they need to eat or sleep properly. Environmental factors will be relatively insignificant, and they will tend to lack the drive to accumulate wealth or property—or even to care about such matters. Time and resource management will typically be neglected, often with seriously detrimental effects to their own careers, social life, and material well-being.

The Sexual Instinct in GeneralMany people initially want to identify themselves as this Variant, perhaps because they believe that this would mean that they are "sexy" or because they enjoy sex. Of course, "sexiness" is highly subjective, and there are "sexy" people in all three of the Instinctual Variants. If we wish to be one Variant rather than another, it is good to remember that the personality tends to interfere with and distort the dominant Instinct.
Thus, people of the Sexual Variant tend to have recurrent problems in the areas of intimate relationships. As with the other Variants, we need to see the way that the Instinct plays out more broadly.

In the Sexual types, there is a constant search for connection and an attraction to intense experiences—not only sexual experiences, but any situation which promises a similar "charge." In all things, Sexual types seek intense contact. The search for intensity could be found in a ski jump, a deep conversation, or an exciting movie. They are the "intimacy junkies" of the Instinctual Variants. On the positive side, sexual types possess a wide-ranging, exploratory approach to life; on the negative side, they have difficulty focusing on their own real needs and priorities.

On entering a room, Sexual types quickly focus on finding where the most "interesting" people are. They tend to follow their attractions. (By contrast, Social types notice who is talking with the host, who has power, prestige, or who might be able to help them. Self-Preservation types will note the temperature of the room, where the refreshments are, and what might be a comfortable place to sit.) Sexual types gravitate toward people they feel magnetized by, regardless of the person's potential for helping them or their social standing. It is as if they were asking, "Where is the juice in this room? Whose energy is most intense?"

Sexual types tend to have difficulty pursuing their own projects or taking adequate care of themselves because on a subconscious level, they are always looking outside themselves for the person or situation that will "complete" them. They are like a plug looking for a socket, and can become obsessed with another if they feel they have "found" the right person for them. They may neglect important obligations, or even their own basic necessities if they are swept up in someone or something that has captivated them.

When they are unhealthy, Sexual types can experience a scattering of their attention and a profound lack of focus. They may act out in sexual promiscuity or become trapped in a fearful, dysfunctional attitude toward sex and intimacy. When the latter becomes their orientation, they will be equally intense about their avoidances.

When the other two Instincts dominate in an individual and the Sexual
Instinct is the least developed, attending to matters of intimacy and stimulation—mental or emotional—does not come naturally. Such individuals tend to have difficulty being intimate with others and may even avoid it altogether. They also tend to fall into routines, feeling uncomfortable if there is too much that is unfamiliar in their lives. They may feel socially involved with people, but strangely disconnected even from spouses, friends, and family members.

[Serotonin]

Self-Preservation types will note the temperature of the room, where the refreshments are, and what might be a comfortable place to sit.
So me it's not funny. Who cares about the people there? ;P Me want hor's d'oeuvres!

[abathur]

Thanks for the info, good read. Seeing bits and contradictions in each, so it'll probably take some more introspection when it's not 3:30AM ;)

[waxwing]

Yes, I like how that ^^^^ description brings out that a sexual 5's avoidance of intimacy (fear) can be as intense as his pursuit of meaningful connection. I definitely (as in totally and completely) have both the fear and the craving. A major polarity at times.

I like the following description of the sexual variant 5 (from enneagramcentral.com). I think it touches on the way in which a so-called "intimacy junkie" can be a detached 5.

They Make Contact Through Information
The Intimate Five

In the movie, sex, lies and videotape, James Spader plays a Sexual subtype Five. You can notice a pronounced polarity. On the one hand, he is close mouthed, uncommunicative and seeking privacy, like any Five. On the other hand, he is alone with his friend's wife (Andi McDowell) for only minutes and he is talking extremely intimately with her. They discuss sex clinically, like a good Five would like, but also more than clinically. This is the polarity in a Sexual Five. Tom Condon remarks they can "go from enigmatic, deliberate distance to intense unguarded openness."

You can see the dynamic in the French film, Rouge (or Red) in which the judge lives all by himself, eavesdropping on his neighbors and having total privacy. Then in a few minutes, he is completely telling the young girl everything, confessing all his sins. This flip flop is an indication of the Five's ambiguous feelings about boundaries. Like all of us, Sexual Fives are polarized about a central issue. The central issue for Five is boundaries. They are overbounded because they are first of all, hypersensitive. The Five who plays the foil for Barbra Streisand in her Two Faces in the Mirror demonstrates this. He decides not to share sexually and really is able to accomplish this. His reason for not having sex is that he gets lost and overcommits when he is sexually involved. It is precisely because they reveal themselves to totally that they keep such high fences. In sex, lies and videotapes, the very Fivish Spader gets women to reveal secrets. That's the currency of intimacy for the Sexual subtype of Five.

Intimate Fives don't share intimately with more than one or two persons. Key disclosures are the centerpiece of the relationship. What Fives lack in breadth they make up in depth and they share totally with one or at the most two people. (Their sexual sharing is very complete and can get a little kinky as they explore how much can be shared). However, sexual sharing is usually accompanied by sharing of inner feelings and thoughts - especially thought. And of course, with or without sexual accompaniment, the understanding is that these secrets must not be shared with any one else.

Fives tend to remember brief, intimate, torrid love affairs forever. They are replayed in the mind and are always a source of emotional charge. Rehearse and replay are general Five characteristics. The Sexual subtype chooses intimacy as the content of his rehearse and replay.

Fives can have deeply intimate relationships without romance. One can be a behind-the-scenes advisor and confidant. Fives would have no trouble advising the president of the firm and having a profound love affair and never letting those two worlds meet. They can compartmentalize with great ease.

When an intimate Five has shared deeply, they can go for long periods of time without communication. They are like camels that drink deeply of intimacy and then go for weeks without drinking again. Emotional experiences "keep" in the Five's retentive mind, so they don't have to enter the outside world for more experiences. What's wrong with the one I have?

Chernick notes that "The Five tendency to keep emotionally-charged relationships separated from each other lends itself to a kind of lust for intense, brief, highly meaningful encounters."

Keep in mind how mental the Five is. Their way of making contact is through information. That's why we have so many professorial Fives. They may be totally unknown to their students, but the professor is sharing themselves when they share their ideas. Now transfer this to an intimate setting. When a Five starts to share themselves, they will lead with information. Now the information is intimate. It won't be small talk, it will be thoughtful, detailed and will be information that tells you about their inner self. Notice, in sex, lies and video tape, how James Spader gets his friend's wife to talk about sex almost immediately. No small talk, no information about extraneous matters. He wants intimate information. And when he gets it, he is turned on.

[cjs55]

The SX stuff really hits hard for me, often in a negative way.

For instance, I was at a party a friend of mine had last night. I walked around, looking for people who I might find something from, and when, like usual, no one offered any electricity, I sulked in a corner for the rest of the night.

I think being an Exxx SX is a much better idea.

[waxwing]

The SX stuff really hits hard for me, often in a negative way.

For instance, I was at a party a friend of mine had last night. I walked around, looking for people who I might find something from, and when, like usual, no one offered any electricity, I sulked in a corner for the rest of the night.

I think being an Exxx SX is a much better idea. Wow, the search for electricity. I know that very well. I often do the same thing. I get almost out of breath at times, just entirely restless in my mind and spirit, because I can't find someone to talk to in a meaningful way. I am all about the intense one-on-one conversations. I can also say that I inevitably second-guess anything personal I disclose. I spill it all or say nothing at all....

Still, I cannot help but get myself into situations where the disclosure is natural and necessary. It's almost an adrenaline rush. Yeah, cjs55, I definitely have felt many negative consequences of the sexual subtype, but I also will say that those moments of connection are beautiful and stay with me for a long, long time even when they are extremely short-lived.

[vacant space]

Bal 5. Sometimes it's good to be idealistic within reason but feel emotionally under-developed w/little desire to develop them.

[sowega]

OK, if you wish to gather your own personal stats., this is what I am:

I am an INTP (I = 89%, N = 100% , T = 89%, P = 78%) and a 5w6 SX); and am a female.

My Horsecope is Cancer in which totally clashes with both, my MBTI and Enneagram profiles --but that ok, since astrology all 'hokas pokas' (New Age) and has no scientific merit.

I am what you would call your very typical INTP geek, and am a complete 'square pig' in a whole, especially for a petite female. The fact that I have very dark, curly-wavy hair and wear thick glasses is what gives my INTPish away when it comes to my outward appearance. If I die my hair blonde and wear contact lenses then perhaps, I can compete with Britney Spears! :shock:

As you might expect from an INTP, I have a chemistry/physics background, have a deep interest in other theoretical-based subjects like philosophy (Nietzche, Schopenhauer, Spinoza, Kant and David Hume), analytical psychology, political thought; literature (Goethe, Dostoyevsky, Shakespeare, Aeschylus and Sophocles), classical music (Mozart, JS Bach, Provokiev, etc.), gaming, chess, and rock climbing. My only more typical female interests are gardening and my children.

I am also very much repulsed by pretentions, and mostly admire people that are authentic, courageous and that show a lot of intelligence.

People always percieve that I have a very serious face and am often a very intense individual, but am always trying to cultivate a sense a humour. The side of my personality that seems to be hidden from most people is my carefree and laid back attitude, and my feelings. :)

[last_caress]

Real-Life Fives With a 6 Wing: Michael Crichton, Bobby Fischer (counterphobic), Jane Goodall, H.R. Haldeman, Arthur (The Amazing) Kreskin, John le Carré, Vladimir Lenin, Leonard Maltin, Sam Neill, Michelle Pfeiffer (counterphobic), Oliver Sacks,Ebenezer Scrooge, B. F. Skinner, George Stephanopoulos, Madeleine Stowe.

Say what?

[indie]

I did not understand the enneagram and thought it to be the largest amount of BS until recently, but now do I now understand, somewhat. Five w/balanced wings, (leaning slightly toward 5w4) and the sp/sx/so thing is actually starting to make a lot of sense given my recent realization that it's decent and normal for a person of my age to be or to think sexual. (Far more thinking than being at this point). And there is absolutely nothing wrong with or to be ashamed about. I would have been (or was) embarrassed to admit something like this before, but no more. Anyway, tis been fun thus far . . . the whole realization that "wow, I can have feelings for people and actually am a sensitive being" thing.

[Sally]

Wow this thread seems so fresh and new.

Returning to my earlier (now nonexistant) conclusion: the way the numbers supposedly related to each other in Enneagram does absolutely nothing for me. Wings, ascent, descent, three-dimensional integrals, multiplication tables, whatever. It's numerology (= arbitraty). It's bullshit.

But just the idea of divying up personalities into 9 subtypes, and then the three... modes? Whatever they're called. 5 sp describes me very well. SO followed by SX describes me well. And looking at the aspects of these descriptions has been useful. Conservative. Miserly. I don't think I thought of myself as predominantly such a way, or not in its negative connotations.... With that in mind, well... It's just a new way of thinking about things.

Which, for an INTP, is always good.