2008, a year of great significance

[Sokkorobo]

What has happened to America? I have rewritten this thread several times now and still i am a loss for words. It is mind boggling that the current state of affairs is tolerated. The most visible aspects of this problem can be seen as the actions of the government. Should i list them? Do we not already know? Should we treat this issue like something that is creepy and annoying, something that we just ignore because it is uncomfortable and difficult to talk about?
We live in an artificially engineered democracy. The supreme court of the land no longer follows lady justice but the whims of politicians. There is absolutely no accountability for what is done with my tax dollars. Arguments of moral appropriateness rather than economic advancement clog our selection for political leaders. I can no longer be certain that my constitutional rights are protected. War is no longer a matter of last resort.

Many would argue that the government is to blame. That responsibility rests on politicians. While this may be true, who was it that put them in power to begin with? The citizenry did. And as responsible participants of the democratic process what have we done to ensure that the implementation of the government is for the people and by the people? In a perverse way our inaction is the will of the people. This shames me as an American.

Is this to be allowed to continue? What, short of disobedience can be done? It can be argued as to what should have been done years ago or even now but that is hardly constructive. The definitive answer to reconstruction is social responsibility. It is now an appalling fact that less than half of the U.S. votes and the ones that do vote according to the convoluted notions democrat or republican. Voting is our most effective outlet for having our will heard. When the whole of America votes in a conscientious manner only good things will come.

It is a certainty that within the next two terms of presidency three supreme court judges will be replaced due to old age. This means that the next president(s) will have the complete capacity to begin restoring Americas former glory by ensuring that the legal system is not compromised and to uphold the constitution.

Now if for some reason the current situation does not abate with the next president then we all need to remember one thing.
The government has power only in so far as the individual grants it. If enough people collectively ignored the government in all of its capacities then it would cease to function. But the anarchy that would ensue is a scary thought.

[Ferrus]

Eh, you probably need another civil war. It's what every country needs once in a while, like colonic irrigation.

[LongSilence]

American Democracy has never been all that 'great' or much more democratic than it is now.

[Sokkorobo]

Understandably a two party system is somewhat flawed. However with the people moving in the right direction with the intent progress, it works.

[LongSilence]

And it all started to go wrong when Bush was elected?

[Sokkorobo]

I think it foundations were set during the civil war. Restructured during the 1930s and after WW2 evolved into what we have now.

[INTPFemme]

Unless someone could get enough gumption to stand up against Bush and his team (which has been crumbling) nothing will change for the immediate. I believe The Speaker of the House has said a few things beyond what would be socially acceptable in Bush?s circle (please don?t take that as a political endorsement as I am not from California). I do consider that possibly it may come back to bite him after his term or it may not. That is something that will play out in our country?s future.

I too am an ashamed American. It is sad to think that when I was growing up we were toward the top of the world educationally as I watch the plummeting of our education system. The rest of the world is either laughing at us or shaking their heads at the stupidity of our government. Our youth doesn?t even know what reality is because they are surrounded by media that can be ridiculous.

You are incredibly right in your plight however the majority are like lemmings and follow what someone else may do because they can?t think for themselves. So if the person they are following isn?t going to vote because their vote won?t count anyway then they aren?t going to too. The same goes with deciding on a candidate to vote for. Most people do not take the time to find out what each person stands for and just go with who their friend likes. Sad.





And it all started to go wrong when Bush was elected?

It didn?t all start when Bush was elected (or was he? Hmm chads were involved, local news for me). We are however in a worse financial position, in a war, gas prices are higher than I thought I would see them for quite a few more years, education is at a stand still, healthcare is at a standstill, ect, ect, ect? Our country is in need of some serious tough love to get this right!

[Sokkorobo]

Yesterday on NPR they had Alan Greenspan discussing his new book and they touched on the 2000 election for some reason. Anyway the supreme court decision, gore vs bush the final statement made by the justices said, "our decision was based on current events" to that extent. meaning there was no precedent in this case. so what was decided upon cannot be repeated. bush wins.

[INTPFemme]

Yesterday on NPR they had Alan Greenspan discussing his new book and they touched on the 2000 election for some reason. Anyway the supreme court decision, gore vs bush the final statement made by the justices said, "our decision was based on current events" to that extent. meaning there was no precedent in this case. so what was decided upon cannot be repeated. bush wins.

This is my take on it. Gov. Jeb Bush was in office when his brother was running for president. Little thing just happens to occur in Florida (never liked those chads) where George Bush's brother is governor. Seems a little fishy to me. ~Trust me I eat lots of fish here!

[Leftfield]

Sokkorobo: You made me want to watch Boston Legal all over again!

All government isn't to blame... having worked in the Executive branch, all you do is what you are told to do. If you don't like it, you can't change the system but only create ways within the system to make it tolerable... reasons what I left...

Legislative and Judicial branches however... can be to blamed to an extent. What is and should be constitutional and what must be changed to keep up with the current times??? This is the endless debate.

Edit: The issue is Bush and his elitist posse is in the Executive branch (or advisement of) and is taking the role as Head Legislature in way too many policies.

[Spring]

This country was designed to be an oligarchy under the guise of a representative democracy. The rich elite who formed the Constitution designed it that way so that money could control the politics. You would be a fool and a sheep not to realize this.

[Ellipsis]

Eh, you probably need another civil war. It's what every country needs once in a while, like colonic irrigation.


Civil wars are the worst kind.......it splits families and in the and creates long lasting feuds even after the war ends......and in the end you end up with either two(or more) separate states that hate each other or one unified state that has a deep resentment for the other side.

In the end civil wars aren't like irrigation they are like forest fires...sure new things grow but it takes time and in the end you may wipe out a whole species of plant from the area for a great many years.

[Sokkorobo]

You would be a fool and a sheep not to realize this.

Let me clarify this.
The only reason that the government is still around is because I do not have enough power to destroy it. Since i am forced to put up with it I want to to be as good as possible.

[Ferrus]

Civil wars are the worst kind.......it splits families and in the and creates long lasting feuds even after the war ends......and in the end you end up with either two(or more) separate states that hate each other or one unified state that has a deep resentment for the other side.

No, that's black propoganda. They're great fun, ask any Iraqi.

[Spring]

Let me clarify this.
The only reason that the government is still around is because I do not have enough power to destroy it. Since i am forced to put up with it I want to to be as good as possible.

Are you an anarchist? Government is essential to maintaining the structure of society whether we want it or not.

[Nighthawk]

It is now an appalling fact that less than half of the U.S. votes and the ones that do vote according to the convoluted notions democrat or republican.

Possibly because there is so little real difference between the candidates who run for office. No matter who gets elected, it is always business as usual once they come to power. I'd love to see a candidate who really stands out.

[Leftfield]

Possibly because there is so little real difference between the candidates who run for office. No matter who gets elected, it is always business as usual once they come to power. I'd love to see a candidate who really stands out.

Uhhh... Ron Paul really stands out as a Republican candidate, where have you been?

Dennis Kucinich on team Democrat stands out, but he is a bit "out there".

Or are you talking about the candidates they tool around on TV: Hillary, Obama, & Rudy... they stand out as most likely to win because the election results are already determined via propaganda.

[Nighthawk]

Uhhh... Ron Paul really stands out as a Republican candidate, where have you been?

Dennis Kucinich on team Democrat stands out, but he is a bit "out there".

Or are you talking about the candidates they tool around on TV: Hillary, Obama, & Rudy... they stand out as most likely to win because the election results are already determined via propaganda.

Yes ... I agree that Ron Paul does stand out ... but, as you alluded, I haven't seen a good, standout candidate win a primary in a very long time. The two top dogs are usually interchangeable. Personally, I like Fred Thompson too ... but that's because he helped me out of a bind I was in years ago. Not sure if that qualifies as an overall standout candidate.

[Baltar]

What's happened? I swear it's anti-depressants. They give shittier jobs, longer hours so we're too run down to even cook then we grab shitty food at drive-in windows. The fix: pills to numb us and make us accept the fate they have planned.

[Leftfield]

What's happened? I swear it's anti-depressants. They give shittier jobs, longer hours so we're too run down to even cook then we grab shitty food at drive-in windows. The fix: pills to numb us and make us accept the fate they have planned.

That's why you should work for a "best in breed" non-US based corporation/company or an NPO/NGO... they have totally contrasting long-term visions (usually quality over quantity)... despite whatever their mission statement states.

It is what you make of it and whether you have the goods... or not...

[rek]

We don't need a civil war, we need to undo the first one. Bring back the articles of confederation. There's no reason some socialist states can not coexist with some libertarian states, and states of all shades of gray in between. (And to make this clear: the civil war was absolutely NOT about slaves - so don't think that I'm saying we should make anyone slaves again or some crazy bs).

The idea that everyone needs to be the same and the idea that one group knows what's right for any other group are the reasons wars exist. Not everyone needs to be the same.

People could co-exist in peace were it not for 1) religion 2) government and 3) resentment from the past. I have absolutely nothing against an Iraqi, or an Iranian, so long as they don't try to force their views and life styles on to me. The difference between me and them is complete random chance of where I was born; and it's a ridiculous arbitrary thing to fight over.

What the US needs to do is split up. To break the trend of warmongering and consolidation into larger and larger states and instead go back to the original american ideas of freedom and decentralization of power. To stop empire building and work on our own country without trying to force our views onto other countries.

[s'box]

Is this to be allowed to continue? What, short of disobedience can be done? It can be argued as to what should have been done years ago or even now but that is hardly constructive. The definitive answer to reconstruction is social responsibility. It is now an appalling fact that less than half of the U.S. votes and the ones that do vote according to the convoluted notions democrat or republican. Voting is our most effective outlet for having our will heard. When the whole of America votes in a conscientious manner only good things will come.

I dont think this statement lines up with this one

We live in an artificially engineered democracy. The supreme court of the land no longer follows lady justice but the whims of politicians. There is absolutely no accountability for what is done with my tax dollars. Arguments of moral appropriateness rather than economic advancement clog our selection for political leaders. I can no longer be certain that my constitutional rights are protected. War is no longer a matter of last resort.

If we live in an artificially engineered democracy, then it wouldnt follow that voting isnt our best option?

Since the governing body acts effectively in its own little sphere seperated from the populace which can only slightly turn the rudder of the big ugly deathship of government one way or another, voting only gives it a sense of legitimacy. Playing a rigged game is used as evidence to try and say the game isnt rigged. If the game isnt rigged then why try and find a better game?

Also thats a sort of wierd idealism for the US government. None of those things in that post are new to this or any era.


Many would argue that the government is to blame. That responsibility rests on politicians. While this may be true, who was it that put them in power to begin with? The citizenry did. And as responsible participants of the democratic process what have we done to ensure that the implementation of the government is for the people and by the people? In a perverse way our inaction is the will of the people. This shames me as an American.

The citizenry didnt. Some rich old folks did. The american population is just on to a core truth about government, that theyre all bastards and elections are bought, not won, and if those rich bastards start to lose then they rig the game. I'd be vastly more troubled by a high turnout for that crapheap.

[sorabji_66]

And it all started to go wrong when Bush was elected?


i know....

eventually these people get a job and focus on the important things.