INTPc Sets up Secret Prisons To Torture Members

[stopharian]

Reference this thread:

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=24376



SO

By Hustler's admission an undisclosed madmin has imposed punitive measures upon the account of Limey which consist of the following:

When classed as miserable, a member suffers ;

1. Slow response (time delay) on every page (20 to 60 seconds default).
2. A chance they will get the "server busy" message (50% by default).
3. A chance that no search facilities will be available (75% by default).
4. A chance they will get redirected to another preset page (25% & homepage by default).
5. A chance they will simply get a blank page (25% by default).
6. Post flood limit increased by a defined factor (10 times by default).
7. If they get past all this okay, then they will be served up their proper page.


My contention about the situation was stated as:


Why spend the time setting up codes of conduct and systems for disciplining and banning people complete with a transparent system of making disciplinary reasonings known to the forum, if the moderators and or administrators are simply going to make arbitrary decisions about whom they dont like and then use secret forms of punishment.

It totally undermines any decisions that the moderators make and inevitably leads to more unrest and ill will in the forum as a whole which In my estimation, is exactly the opposite of what any group of moderators/administrators should be trying to achieve. This kind of bullshit only leads to chaos.


However Hermione takes the opinion that if you live by the sword than you die by the sword.

So If I can set it up here is a poll.

what do you think?

[apple]

However Hermione takes the opinion that if you live by the sword than you die by the sword. So If I can set it up here is a poll.

what do you think?

That's only because I suspect Hermione uses this tactic on the posters whom she can't get a last word in with. Otherwise, I think Hustler's quite fair. Of course, Limey's a lovable nut. :)

[Ashi, K?]

Oh, I don't mind one bit, in fact I think this system will keep us safe from threats.

*smiles for the hidden camera*

[Melody]

hey this gives me a great idea. why not publicize the madmin logs (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=21362) wooo

[mancroft]

I am shocked and horrified that such things as "Miserable Users" exist.

[Ivy]

I voted in protest because both of the other options departed from my "this is a forum, it is only a forum, if it had been real life you would not have been able to be such a punk" approach to forum life.

Even though it is just a forum, "official" consequences get voted on and reasoned out. Evidently this is an unofficial consequence, more in the category of "playful antagonization" than "well-reasoned punishment." Kind of like messing around with aviators and such. Would anyone protest if the aviator guy had been added to the Miserable usergroup? Personally, I don't classify Limey alongside aviator guy (and neither avatar-changing nor miserable-user-dubbing is something I'd get into myself, but then again, I am not an INTP, either). But there are different opinions on that across the forum.

[Karl]

If your "miserable" things are true they really don't make sense to me. Warnings, suspensions, and then bannings, I say. Not arbitrary punishments.

As I'm a moderator on another forum, I am perhaps more sympathetic to the administration than I might otherwise be. However, I do think the reasons should be clearly stated and people able to ask questions. (you don't have to answer anyway!) That way people get an idea of what they can't do... because how do I know I won't repeat something if I don't know what it was?

Edit: A few seconds shows that they are, indeed, procedure on this forum.

Oh, and avatar changing is a horrible idea. People get antsy about that kind of thing. I mean, I thought the Groucho Marx thing was funny, but the fact that it might be amusing to some people doesn't justify doing what feels like a violation of privacy to many.

[charred_heart]

Oh, I don't mind one bit, in fact I think this system will keep us safe from threats.

*smiles for the hidden camera*yay for National Security!


I am shocked and horrified that such things as "Miserable Users" exist.go back to Cuba

[venerationOFrabbits]

...

what do you think?

I think you did not heed the warning that was Limy's public flogging. :stop: :censor: yourself and take a couple of these :pornstar: :pornstar:.

[ApeTheDog]

Obviously the moderators know better than we do what kind of forum they would, sorry, I mean... we would like to have. We. Not them. They look after them, em... ourselves.

Long live the moderators!

[nonperson]

Isn't this typical INTP behaviour? We don't like following rules, but we like drawing up rules (and designing structures) for others to follow???

When I set up ESFPcentral we won't have any of this crap.............

http://www.sfgoth.com/~ldyousel/richard/images/swat-09.jpg

[Architectonic]

hey this gives me a great idea. why not publicize the madmin logs (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=21362) wooo

What an excellent idea! :highfive:

[MacGuffin]

What an excellent idea! :highfive:

I proposed this at one point.

The only problem is the modbox is often used to blow off steam about some users rather than actually following through on the torture. Revealing this would lead to bad feelings. We have enough Fe explosions as it is.

Opening up the process also makes it more political, you would see members lobbying certain madmins they view as favorable.

Keeping it hidden makes the madmins monolithic, deal with one of us, deal with us all.

[Architectonic]

Opening up the process also makes it more political, you would see members lobbying certain madmins they view as favorable.

What is wrong with that?

Note: there is a difference between showing the whole modbox and just showing the list of the most recent moderator actions.


Keeping it hidden makes the madmins monolithic, deal with one of us, deal with us all.

Note to self: divide and conquer....

[Hermione]

Obviously the moderators know better than we do what kind of forum they would, sorry, I mean... we would like to have. We. Not them. They look after them, em... ourselves.

Long live the moderators!


clap clap. thank you, Ape

Oh, did I just hear 'off with her head' , again? god, how boring.

Well of course. First thing I learned. Still don't believe it though, and won't bother memorizing the motto, thank you. SO not the girl scout type. But yeah, people do what they do and we just work around them.

[Rajah]

Note: there is a difference between showing the whole modbox and just showing the list of the most recent moderator actions.Are you asking for the former or the latter?

[Ivy]

I wouldn't be averse to making the logs of actions public, except that some of them are private, and rightly so I think for the members' sake. If you got an infraction would you want it broadcast to the entire forum? And if only some moderator actions are made public, who decides which ones? For things like this to go public, all usergroup and permissions issues would have to go public, right? That would mean supplying a handy list of all the forum members who answered the age verification question at registration, indicating that they are very young. I, for one, am not comfortable with that.

[Marston]

I am delighted and envious that such things exist.

[Hermione]

That's only because I suspect Hermione uses this tactic on the posters whom she can't get a last word in with. Otherwise, I think Hustler's quite fair. Of course, Limey's a lovable nut. :)

Rather negative and all that for an nf fuzzy type person and all.
Just so you realize not everything goes wrong for everyone , I have continued to always get the last word in. But yah, my friends most always let me have my say, that's how we do friendship. I listen to them and they let me talk a little. It's simply marvelous. You must try it. Usually win most of the battles, too. Of course, I only go for a couple of battles. It's so wearing, drama. Don't you think? I mean, don't you think?

[Spring]

I guess that explains why I'm no longer able to get through to some of my old forums. Miserable member eh...what will they think of next?

[Karl]

Hell, it is their forum. They don't need to create a forum ideal to us. It just needs to be good enough that we keep posting, and, realistically, they can do whatever they want once they get there.

[Hustler]

Hell, it is their forum. They don't need to create a forum ideal to us. It just needs to be good enough that we keep posting, and, realistically, they can do whatever they want once they get there.

So this means you're not going to leave in protest?


Back to the drawing board, I guess...

[Karl]

So this means you're not going to leave in protest?

Of course not. I like this forum. And anyway, you're nowhere near having a large scale forum revolt on your hands. When people set up an alternative web forum and everyone who posts here posts there too, and a lot of people there quit here, then you know you've crossed the line and kept going. But you're safe now.

However announcing why mods/admins are doing things and allowing people to question it would be a step away from that line...

[nfinityi]

Does that make Ivy a Protest Warrior? (http://protestwarrior.com/) :sick:

[Hustler]

Of course not. I like this forum. And anyway, you're nowhere near having a large scale forum revolt on your hands. When people set up an alternative web forum and everyone who posts here posts there too, and a lot of people there quit here, then you know you've crossed the line and kept going. But you're safe now.

However announcing why mods/admins are doing things and allowing people to question it would be a step away from that line...

People have already tried that. Three or four times, maybe more. I wish that the INTJs would do that, what with one of their rank being the "victim" and another being a vocal opponent of INTPc's corrupt administrative practices. But, ironically, they can't get their shit together like the INTPs can in order to make that happen.

[Anonymous]

Whoever keeps the place running can do whatever the fuck they want to do with it as long as they keep it legal, end of story. There's no need to do secret punishments. If they wanted, they could make it so that the mandatory skin is neon pink, the words "you", "are", and "the" are automatically changed to "u", "r", and "teh", and delete all punctuation. Would this help membership? Of course not, but hell, "should" and "shouldn't" is really out of the picture.

Unless they started making INTPc a profit center. Then "should" and "shouldn't" would come back in, but only in regards to profit.

[V Profane]

I, for one, am shocked. Shocked and appalled, and possibly even thinking of the children.

[Karl]

People have already tried that. Three or four times, maybe more. I wish that the INTJs would do that, what with one of their rank being the "victim" and another being a vocal opponent of INTPc's corrupt administrative practices. But, ironically, they can't get their shit together like the INTPs can in order to make that happen.

Yeah, but they haven't been successful like I described.

It is pretty hard to get a forum established and I can't imagine doing it myself without a wide base of support from extremely trustworthy people. You haven't upset enough people to create that base yet, and I'm not claiming you ever will. Plus, I think most people simply aren't up to doing that, and the more people you upset, the more likely it is to upset someone who is up to it.

An INTJ forum actually wouldn't be bad though...

About the corruption accusation... you also have to understand that people do not have the same information you do, and NTs aren't the type to accept that the authorities are interpreting the information well, so they don't have to. Too bad web forums only work as a dictatorship. If you can figure out how to take steps on your own terms to show people that you aren't corrupt, it'll help, although of course you can never completely satisfy the community.

[apple]

Yeah, but they haven't been successful like I described.

It is pretty hard to get a forum established and I can't imagine doing it myself without a wide base of support from extremely trustworthy people. You haven't upset enough people to create that base yet, and I'm not claiming you ever will. Plus, I think most people simply aren't up to doing that, and the more people you upset, the more likely it is to upset someone who is up to it.

An INTJ forum actually wouldn't be bad though...

About the corruption accusation... you also have to understand that people do not have the same information you do, and NTs aren't the type to accept that the authorities are interpreting the information well, so they don't have to. Too bad web forums only work as a dictatorship. If you can figure out how to take steps on your own terms to show people that you aren't corrupt, it'll help, although of course you can never completely satisfy the community.

:lol: Have you checked out the INTJ forum?

[Autumn]

This kind of abuse of power always disgusts me. I'm disappointed. Power makes people crazy. Anywhere, anytime. INTPs are no exception. Most likely I'm no exception. (I still hate to be a human.)

(Btw. I noticed weeks (months?) ago that INTPc gives server error way too many times. However I'm not perceiving the other symptoms (yet) though. Also most of the time I lurk without logging in and I'm having dynamic IP, so this must effect everyone else browsing from Hungary. Sorry, Shimpei :))

[Spring]

I actually left a forum because this was how they decided to deal with me. At least that is what I am guessing they did. I had difficulty accessing the forum from my laptop and if I use any other computer and log into my account, then that computer can no longer access the forum without those kinds of problems. I created a new account with a different computer and no problems. So I guess they have got it down to the point where they can apply these settings not only to accounts and IPs but even computer addresses.

That's just speculation on my part but if it's true then times have changed quite a bit since I use to mod. I could never punish a person unless they very clearly broke some rules, for which I would warn them and make the possible punishment clear. And once I had to suspend or ban a member, they knew for how long and for what reason. The only reason conceivable for this kind of treatment would be to get rid of a member without making a big scene.

There isn't any opportunity for atonement or for someone to learn what they have done wrong so they don't repeat the same mistake, just "we don't like you, we won't tell you, we just hope you have a bad enough time that you go away." It's sort of like internet forums are becoming like high school. It's very sad that we have to resort to labeling and segregating, but human beings, especially people who have been persecuted this way, never learn to move beyond it.

[MadamI'madaM]

I, for one, think people around here take Limey's posts (and themselves) way too seriously.

Not that I haven't seen him be a prick just for the sake of it, but he only ever takes advantage of people's sensitivity after they got butthurt over a little joke.

and as for the sadistic usergroup business, it's terribly reminiscent of a vengeful dungeonmaster casting "vertigo" or something

roll the 7-sided die to access the server...Muah Ha Ha Ha:devil:

[ApeTheDog]

I would like to know who else is in that usergroup. If we can know that, I'm willing to change my opinion of this being unfair and settle for Limey staying in.

[Karl]

I actually left a forum because this was how they decided to deal with me. At least that is what I am guessing they did. I had difficulty accessing the forum from my laptop and if I use any other computer and log into my account, then that computer can no longer access the forum without those kinds of problems. I created a new account with a different computer and no problems. So I guess they have got it down to the point where they can apply these settings not only to accounts and IPs but even computer addresses.

That's just speculation on my part but if it's true then times have changed quite a bit since I use to mod. I could never punish a person unless they very clearly broke some rules, for which I would warn them and make the possible punishment clear. And once I had to suspend or ban a member, they knew for how long and for what reason. The only reason conceivable for this kind of treatment would be to get rid of a member without making a big scene.

There isn't any opportunity for atonement or for someone to learn what they have done wrong so they don't repeat the same mistake, just "we don't like you, we won't tell you, we just hope you have a bad enough time that you go away." It's sort of like internet forums are becoming like high school. It's very sad that we have to resort to labeling and segregating, but human beings, especially people who have been persecuted this way, never learn to move beyond it.

And this is how it should be. Warnings, suspensions, and bannings. Stick to the tried and true methods of punishment! (sorry, couldn't resist)

But really, I'm with spring here. None of this secretive passive agressive stuff. Tell people what's what, warn them, and if they still don't listen to you, kick their ass out the door. None of this 9/10ths of the way stuff.

[V Profane]

I, for one, think people around here take Limey's posts (and themselves) way too seriously ... roll the 7-sided die to access the server...Muah Ha Ha Ha:devil:

:theclap:

I don't believe that Limey was ever really trolling or anything, just being contrary or challenging. Yes, this is INTP central, but surely someone who's of another type who has persevered for that long deserves a bit of leeway; in the interest of keeping things lively?

[Spring]

I think Limey was being rather absurd and rude. Had it been my forum, I would have warned him and then suspended or banned him. Now weak minded people are going to be paranoid that they are in this user group. Come to think of it...

Why did this page take so long to load...

I don't think the search function was working too well for me either...

I also got a lot of page errors today....

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!

j/k

[Jennywocky]

I, for one, am shocked. Shocked and appalled, and possibly even thinking of the children.

You have children??? :sadbanana:

[V Profane]

You have children??? :sadbanana:

Not my children, the children. :stupid:

[cafe]

I'm pretty sure my children don't care about any of this. It's just a boring old forum that their mom is into. All that weird personality stuff I won't shut up about. :p

I personally find it kind of passive aggressive, but not surprising. :rolleyes:

[xNTP]

Unless he got some warning, it sounds fucked up that he should get banned for being contrary. This isn't a democracy, and that's fine, but if this starts to happen more often, people could start becoming (more) self-conscious posters, which could eventually start to diminish post quality.

[stopharian]

:lol: Have you checked out the INTJ forum?

The INTJ Forum is only weeks old...Go back and check out posts from the early days of this place (2004) they ere happy to have 25 posters.

[ApeTheDog]

people could start becoming (more) self-conscious posters, which could eventually start to diminish post quality.

Yeah, because we need more "what is your favourite hamburger topping" polls.

[V Profane]

Yeah, because we need more "what is your favourite hamburger topping" polls.

I think being self conscious about expressing a potentially controversial or contrary opinion, rather than vocalising a vacuity, is Edahn's concern.

[Melody]

I wouldn't be averse to making the logs of actions public, except that some of them are private, and rightly so I think for the members' sake. If you got an infraction would you want it broadcast to the entire forum? And if only some moderator actions are made public, who decides which ones? For things like this to go public, all usergroup and permissions issues would have to go public, right? That would mean supplying a handy list of all the forum members who answered the age verification question at registration, indicating that they are very young. I, for one, am not comfortable with that.if a mod decides to place someone in some usergroup, then it should be visible. specific actions could be hardcoded at the sourcecode level so that e.g. a nonmod would not see the specific action of someone being placed in the Very Young usergroup, but would be able to see all other usergroup actions. while regular posters would not be able to see everything, all madmins being able to is important


If you got an infraction would you want it broadcast to the entire forum?yes. i pointed out in another thread how publicizing the logs would automatically take care of this thread (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=20252), and it would prevent things like this pussy guatanamo bay-like abuse against innocent Limey

[MacGuffin]

if a mod decides to place someone in some usergroup, then it should be visible. specific actions could be hardcoded at the sourcecode level so that e.g. a nonmod would not see the specific action of someone being placed in the Very Young usergroup, but would be able to see all other usergroup actions. while regular posters would not be able to see everything, all madmins being able to is important

That sounds like SJ work.

Meh.


yes. i pointed out in another thread how publicizing the logs would automatically take care of this thread (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=20252), and it would prevent things like this pussy guatanamo bay-like abuse against innocent Limey
Oh, you were doing so well until that second-to-last word.

[Karl]

That sounds like SJ work.

Meh.

Running a forum is very logistical, actually...


Oh, you were doing so well until that second-to-last word.

Everyone seems convinced that Limey was just dissenting and didn't do anything wrong, so having things be more clear could fix that too. (and I'm actually assuming the administration probably has a good reason)

[MacGuffin]

Everyone seems convinced that Limey was just dissenting and didn't do anything wrong, so having things be more clear could fix that too. (and I'm actually assuming the administration probably has a good reason)

I would be amazed if anyone could attach a word like dissent to any of Limey's posts.

Go ahead and try! I'd love to see it.

[Melody]

That sounds like SJ work.

Meh.manual modding = SJ work. automatic things like public madmin logs = NP



Oh, you were doing so well until that second-to-last word.think i was being serious there do ya. i've observed limey being a... how do you say... overconfrontational prick? i don't see him as "innocent." however, just as with guatanamo bay, there's a reason we have courts and crap, and it isn't to bastardize the system by throwing it out the window as soon as we find a "really bad" person

[MacGuffin]

manual modding = SJ work. automatic things like public madmin logs = NP
But you mentioned coding dammit!

[stopharian]

I wouldn't be averse to making the logs of actions public, except that some of them are private, and rightly so I think for the members' sake. If you got an infraction would you want it broadcast to the entire forum? And if only some moderator actions are made public, who decides which ones? For things like this to go public, all usergroup and permissions issues would have to go public, right? That would mean supplying a handy list of all the forum members who answered the age verification question at registration, indicating that they are very young. I, for one, am not comfortable with that.

I dont think that it necessarily follows that you would have to make young usergroup public just to satisfy the demands of transparency. Keep that one private. its really a separate issue.

As to whether or not infrations should be public. Absolutely. No question. Why wouldnt they be. It protects both the users and the moderators and serves as a basis for what kind of conduct is allowed. Apparently I got "an infraction" today. I'm not even sure Im allowed to make it public. It was sent in a PM right, so is it another infraction to make it known that I got an infraction. additionally how do I know that I really got an infraction and that this isnt just some cowboy madmin pestering me at their whim without any of the other mods admins knowing about it. I dont. I have'nt the first clue.

[MacGuffin]

There are currently 30 usergroups (soon to decrease in number).

[V Profane]

I would be amazed if anyone could attach a word like dissent to any of Limey's posts.

Go ahead and try! I'd love to see it.

Really?

1. To differ in opinion or feeling; disagree.
2. To withhold assent or approval.

n.

1. Difference of opinion or feeling; disagreement.
2. The refusal to conform to the authority or doctrine of an established church; nonconformity.
3. Law. A justice's refusal to concur with the opinion of a majority, as on a higher court. Also called dissenting opinion.

That doesn't apply to any of Limey's posts?

[stopharian]

(and I'm actually assuming the administration probably has a good reason)

why would you assume that. If they did wouldnt they state the reasoning in the banned and the damned and then purgatorize him for a while or whatever.

More likely they didnt....why else would they nefariously attach crap settings to limey's account without telling anyone including him?

It seems like you would have to assume that they had NO good reason.

[MacGuffin]

Really?

1. To differ in opinion or feeling; disagree.
2. To withhold assent or approval.

n.

1. Difference of opinion or feeling; disagreement.
2. The refusal to conform to the authority or doctrine of an established church; nonconformity.
3. Law. A justice's refusal to concur with the opinion of a majority, as on a higher court. Also called dissenting opinion.

That doesn't apply to any of Limey's posts?

Considering the general lack of content, it would be hard. Still, go ahead and try.


why would you assume that. If they did wouldnt they state the reasoning in the banned and the damned and then purgatorize him for a while or whatever.

More likely they didnt....why else would they nefariously attach crap settings to limey's account without telling anyone including him?

It seems like you would have to assume that they had NO good reason.
So you'd rather we ban him?

Opinion noted.

[apple]

I think being self conscious about expressing a potentially controversial or contrary opinion, rather than vocalising a vacuity, is Edahn's concern.

[deleted by Rajah]

[Jennywocky]

As to whether or not infrations should be public. Absolutely. No question. Why wouldnt they be. It protects both the users and the moderators and serves as a basis for what kind of conduct is allowed.

I lobbied for a list of who was banned and why. (The Banned and Damned List.) So the madmins gave it to us. I think that was valuable.

I have concerns, though, about making all the details transparent. As was stated before, most of the time people don't even want all of their details to be made public record. And besides, what is this, SJCentral? (I didn't think it was.)

If you are worried about "rogue" madmins wantonly shooting people, I am assuming that INTPc works the same as MBTIc; and when someone gets an infraction, all the madmins are aware of it. (And this is totally aside from the fact of potential infractions being discussed ahead of time when possible/appropriate, so that the majority/all of the madmins are in support of the action being taken.)

I do not know what the hell is going on with the Miserable group. I assume it's more due to the nature of INTPc -- less an abuse of power, more the "tone of the forum" where people are just screwing around.


Apparently I got "an infraction" today. I'm not even sure Im allowed to make it public. It was sent in a PM right, so is it another infraction to make it known that I got an infraction.

If you post the actual PM you got, yeah, you'll probably get another infraction. You're just not allowed to quote it.... you hardened criminal from another world, you...!

[stopharian]

Considering the general lack of content, it would be hard. Still, go ahead and try.


So you'd rather we ban him?

Opinion noted.


Not exactly, My vote in the poll was that Arbitrary punishments AND Secret punishments rip apart the fabric of the forum.

[MacGuffin]

Not exactly, My vote in the poll was that Arbitrary punishments AND Secret punishments rip apart the fabric of the forum.

We'll do a better job of keeping things secret then.

[Spring]

We'll do a better job of keeping things secret then.

Please do. This forum should be run like the Bush Administration. A need to know basis only and even then only after we hound you for several days! ;)

I'm still not convinced that this isn't some ploy by the mods to get people like me riled up for no good reason.

[V Profane]

Considering the general lack of content, it would be hard. Still, go ahead and try.

Aww hell naw! I'm bannable on those grounds.

{edited by MacG - sorry that quote was edited earlier}

[!diom]

I don't care about Limey, and I wouldn't sympathize with anyone who found themselves in such a group (not even myself).

Unless, of course, you can find a truly decent person whose self-esteem somehow relies on the esteem handed down to them by the madmins.

[C.J.Woolf]

The warning/infraction function is a tool for notifying members and also a tool for notifying other madmins, so that everyone knows the score. I don't think of a warning/infraction as a secret punishment; rather, it's a form of private message. A bit of good management advice says praise publicly and reprimand privately.

If you want to publicize a warning/infraction (without quoting PMs, of course), we can't prevent that. Who knows, appealing to the court of public opinion might start a constructive discussion about forum administration and have a good outcome. But given the circumstances, it probably won't.

[V Profane]

madmins.

Everytime somebody uses that term, I involuntarily think of MST3K (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRJPmajStCQ).

[Melody]

The warning/infraction function is a tool for notifying members and also a tool for notifying other madmins, so that everyone knows the score.everyone except the normal members, who would be the ones to actually benefit from the knowledge

[MacGuffin]

everyone except the normal members, who would be the ones to actually benefit from the knowledge

How?

[C.J.Woolf]

everyone except the normal members, who would be the ones to actually benefit from the knowledge
I should have said "every madmin, and the warned member" instead of "everyone".

How would other members benefit from this knowledge?


[Crossposted with Mac. You're too goddamn fast!]

[Melody]

cuz then members learn what deviance is and isn't. for example, apple up there probably didn't know insulting members directly is something of a no-no. he likely received a PM, but any observing newbies remain newbies as they aren't made aware of any of it

i'm not so sure those should be public anyway. a "warning" isn't really an "action," and is a bit different than putting someone in a castrated usergroup

[edit]i can't really say either way atm. if they were public people could see the warning history, which would support the madmins in some cases

[MacGuffin]

cuz then members learn what deviance is and isn't. for example, apple up there probably didn't know insulting members directly is something of a no-no. he likely received a PM, but any observing newbies remain newbies as they aren't made aware of any of it

What is this for then?

http://forums.intpcentral.com/faq.php

[!diom]

Everytime somebody uses that term, I involuntarily think of MST3K (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRJPmajStCQ).

Ya know.. HilbertSpace would make a good madmin.

[Melody]

What is this for then?

http://forums.intpcentral.com/faq.phplol. i been a member for quite a while. you could even say i've been a member for "4 years," if you will. and this is the first time i've ever seen that page. i know i'm never gonna read it. i don't think any normal citizen ever reads the fatass lawbooks either

in keeping with "deviant" in its sociological connotations, people learn more by seeing a car pulled over by a cop than they do by reading anything. so what are the lawbooks for then? they're the backbone of the system, but that's not where people learn behavior

[MacGuffin]

lol. i been a member for quite a while. you could even say i've been a member for "4 years," if you will. and this is the first time i've ever seen that page. i know i'm never gonna read it. i don't think any normal citizen ever reads the fatass lawbooks either

in keeping with "deviant" in its sociological connotations, people learn more by seeing a car pulled over by a cop than they do by reading anything. so what are the lawbooks for then? they're the backbone of the system, but that's not where people learn behavior

So people don't acknowledge the existence of speed limit signs until they see someone pulled over... interesting.

[Melody]

what's the "speed limit sign" equivalent of apple's above offense?

[MacGuffin]

what's the "speed limit sign" equivalent of apple's above offense?

http://forums.intpcentral.com/faq.php ?

Or are we arguing in circles now?

[Melody]

that faq is a fatass lawbook no one is going to read. it is far from a "speed limit sign"

[MacGuffin]

that faq is a fatass lawbook no one is going to read. it is far from a "speed limit sign"

It takes a minute to read.

[Melody]

and yet, no one is going to read it

[apple]

What is this for then?

http://forums.intpcentral.com/faq.php

I don't recall insulting anyone in the comment that Rajah erased. I simply made an observation of one member's preference over another.

However, I think defending oneself from another member's attacks is perfectly reasonable.

[MacGuffin]

and yet, no one is going to read it

This sounds like an argument for secretive and arbitrary punishment.

How is reading that faq any less of a burden than reading a mod log and piecing together how someone crossed the lines?

[MacGuffin]

I don't recall insulting anyone in the comment that Rajah erased. I simply made an observation of one member's preference over another.

However, I think defending oneself from another member's attacks is perfectly reasonable.

If you really believe this, you will be having problems around here.

[apple]

If you really believe this, you will be having problems around here.

I was really agreeing with this post.

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=710304&postcount=42

Am I not allowed to express an opinion then?

[MacGuffin]

I was really agreeing with this post.

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=710304&postcount=42

Am I not allowed to express an opinion then?

I thought you didn't like people stalking you around the forums? Why invoke their names then?

[apple]

I thought you didn't like people stalking you around the forums? Why invoke their names then?

I see you have dodged the answer like a true lawyer.

Answer me first. :grin:

[MacGuffin]

I see you have dodged the answer like a true lawyer.

Answer me first. :grin:

If your "opinion" is just a thinly disguised attack, then no, you can't.

[apple]

If your "opinion" is just a thinly disguised attack, then no, you can't.

It wasn't an attack at all. To refresh your memory I had written in response:

{I know what it was - MacG}

A simple opinion. Not the usual "Dear Apple" attacks someone launches on the forum.

[MacGuffin]

It wasn't an attack at all. To refresh your memory I had written in response:

{I know what it was - MacG}

A simple opinion. Not the usual "Dear Apple" attacks someone launches on the forum.

Please try harder, you aren't impressing anyone.

[C.J.Woolf]

cuz then members learn what deviance is and isn't. for example, apple up there probably didn't know insulting members directly is something of a no-no. he likely received a PM, but any observing newbies remain newbies as they aren't made aware of any of it
If it happened more often then I might agree, but we have given warnings or infractions to very few members. I guess the rest (like you) intuitively pick up on what is deviance and what isn't, without the aid of the FAQ.

[Ellipsis]

Here is my view....

Yes, the system is unfair and yes Mods can go crazy with power but I think if we where to open the system up we will be having much more problems then there are now...with half the posts being about how this or that is unfair .....just look at this thread....9 pages already and a whole bunch of feuds starting between members....sorry I think these stupid arguments on this Forum are just a way to have "action" on a forum that is overly agreeable.....anyway....I am enjoying this particular argument between apple and MacG back to the show people thank you for your time....

:popcorn:

[Melody]

This sounds like an argument for secretive and arbitrary punishment.

How is reading that faq any less of a burden than reading a mod log and piecing together how someone crossed the lines?iono, but something tells me one would be read more than the other. this also goes back to...


So people don't acknowledge the existence of speed limit signs until they see someone pulled over... interesting.that's actually correct. they wouldn't. imagine if everyone went twice as fast as the speed limit and no one got pulled over. while the lawbooks may be the "backbone," the real "horse's mouth" is the policemen and courts themselves. the faq is a general declarative exposition i.e. boring. the logs would show what actually transpired. maybe boring for some, but again i'm sure many, many more people would read it than the faq. it's not something people are going to do in their spare time, it'll be something they'll be curious enough to do after a particular event

anyways this gets away from the reason for making the logs public. like i said above somewhere, i'm not sure "warnings" should be made public, and don't really think it's necessary. the real goal is the psychological implications of just having that info public. people don't even have to actually read the logs for them to fulfill their primary purpose, and they may have other benefits beside that (like taking care of that banned thread)

[MacGuffin]

iono, but something tells me one would be read more than the other. this also goes back to...

that's actually correct. they wouldn't. imagine if everyone went twice as fast as the speed limit and no one got pulled over. while the lawbooks may be the "backbone," the real "horse's mouth" is the policemen and courts themselves. the faq is a general declarative exposition i.e. boring. the logs would show what actually transpired, maybe boring for some, but again i'm sure many, many more people would read it than the faq. it's not something people are going to do in their spare time, it'll be something they'll be curious enough to do after a particular event

anyways this gets away from the reason for making the logs public. like i said above somewhere, i'm not sure "warnings" should be public, and don't really think it's necessary. the real goal is the psychological implications of just having that info public. people don't even have to actually read the logs for them to fulfill their primary purpose, and they may have other benefits beside that (like taking care of that banned thread)

I think you are dead wrong about the logs.

Here are the last 15 entries:

Post Edited
Post Edited
Post Edited
Post Edited
Thread moved to 'The Emporium'.
Post merged from multiple posts
Poll Edited
Thread split to threadid 24371.
Post Edited
Thread title changed
Thread moved to 'MBTI Talk'.
Post Edited
Thread moved to 'Personal Threads'.
Thread moved with redirect to 'The Local Pub'.
Thread moved to 'Moved Threads'.

Exciting huh?

[Melody]

well, i quote myself

it's not something people are going to do in their spare time, it'll be something they'll be curious enough to do after a particular event

[edit]also, if the logs are made sortable, people can sort by, say, bannings [which is how that banned thread would be made useless]

[edit2]bannings are interesting!

[Rajah]

It wasn't an attack at all. To refresh your memory I had written in response:

{I know what it was - MacG}

A simple opinion. Not the usual "Dear Apple" attacks someone launches on the forum.
Apple, I did not say it was an attack. I said it was a provocation. Multiple times (and publicly) you have asked the madmins to protect you from attacks by forum members. And specifically, the one you referenced in your post. You cannot blatantly provoke someone in that fashion, on one hand, and demand they leave you alone, on the other.

If you'd prefer to have your post reinstated, please let me know, so that I can ignore your subsequent, and inevitable, request to have people stop "picking" on you.

[apple]

Apple, I did not say it was an attack. I said it was a provocation.

Did you send me a PM about this matter? I have not received it.


If you'd prefer to have your post reinstated, please let me know, so that I can ignore your subsequent, and inevitable, request to have people stop "picking" on you.

Then I request you also delete all of edahn's posts that mention me as well, since they are more blatant provocations.

[MacGuffin]

Did you send me a PM about this matter? I have not received it.
I really have no idea why some of you prefer draconian formal punishments to these informal ones.

You want a warning?


Then I request you also delete all of edahn's posts that mention me as well, since they are more blatant provocations.
That is the past, this is the present.

[Rajah]

Did you send me a PM about this matter? I have not received it. No. It's called reading. And if you'd read my reason at the bottom of your deleted post, you'd see I wrote "Provocation."


Then I request you also delete all of edahn's posts that mention me as well, since they are more blatant provocations.No. You were the one requesting to be left alone, and now you're the one who invited an attack out of nowhere. I'm honestly dismayed by that behavior, apple.

[apple]

You were the one requesting to be left alone, and now you're the one who invited an attack out of nowhere. I'm honestly dismayed by that behavior, apple.

Well, I hope we're talking about the same thing, but I've sent you a PM on the matter. Apologies if there was some sort of misunderstanding. :)

[djm]

that faq is a fatass lawbook no one is going to read. it is far from a "speed limit sign"

In fairness I did read it when I signed up, and it did not take long. It's only polite if you enter a 'society' that you take the trouble to learn the accepted norms.

That's why I dislike this secret hampering process, where is the mention of it. It is (and I accept I am being somewhat melodramatic) reminiscent of the prisoner renditioning scandal in the EU. Having said that I do see a funny side to the miserable group, and if I was mod I would be tempted to use it on a few people - power corrupts.

For the record I see how Limey can wind people up, but a lot of it is humerous. Maybe brummy humor doesn't travel well (which is a worry for me). But then as I am never bothered by confrontation (I can give as good as I get) perhaps I am not a good yardstick. He may well put off more sensitive souls from posting though which would be a shame.

I would rather he had gone through the stated disciplinary process, which is transparent.

[Hustler]

[edit2]bannings are interesting!
No, they're not. I just banned a couple of accounts mere minutes ago. Want to know who?

Bynctulty
MukolakorovH

Ever heard of them? I didn't think so. They're spambots. In fact, somewhere around 1300 of our 1334 banned users are spambots. The other 34 are CTG.

[Ivy]

and 7 of the CTGs are also todayme. Don't ask me how that's possible- that guy bends time and space or something.

[Melody]

bannings may not be interesting... but for some reason there is still a thread by the madmins on it "The Banned and the Damned (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=20252)"

i'm actually surprised we get that many bots. well... a few k over a few years is pretty good i guess. if the captcha is good they have to sign up manually, which sounds like the case. that's a different story tho, since if the list is made sortable it could be sorted not just by action ("banned") but also by reason ("spambot") and if a simple search capability is in place the spambot bannings could be filtered out entirely

[Hustler]

that's a different story tho, since if the list is made sortable it could be sorted not just by action ("banned") but also by reason ("spambot") and if a simple search capability is in place the spambot bannings could be filtered out entirely
This has already been done for you. It's the very thread you mentioned. We don't post every banned spambot there (obviously), but we do post all other bans.

EDIT: Also, there have been more than 1334 banned users over the years. Some spam accounts have been deleted, and there have been some pruning events in the past to thin out the total userbase which may have caught some spam accounts.

[Melody]

yea, but bannings aren't the only thing the logs would note. this thread is/was about limey's punishment, which was carried out in secret even w/ respect to him

[ajblaise]

i'll say...Limey's a ****** and i'm glad that they messed with him a little bit, and to me, when ******'s get fucked around with, it's always funny and well and probably humanitarian in the broad scope.

I pretty much agree with Poll choice 1 (assuming i like those in control), but Poll choice 2 is right.


Here's a pic a friend took of me pissing on the Secret Prison, you can kinda see Limey just starring at my wiener from inside that trailer, but his face is hard to make out:

http://www.passcal.nmt.edu/~bob/passcal/catscan/images/3778.jpg

[dubbeltop]

INTPc Sets up Secret Prisons To Torture Members

Limey just got glued.......

Glued to death that is.....

Anyway this is a whole new set of tools for the administration to use.......whats next ??

[venerationOFrabbits]

.......whats next ??

who's next?

[Architectonic]

What is this for then?

http://forums.intpcentral.com/faq.php

To please the SJs?
Seriously, rules and how they are applied in practise is often divergent.


Exciting huh?

So you'll have no issues with making it public then?

[Ferrus]

I'm convinced I've been in this group for at least temporary periods.

[djm]

I'm convinced I've been in this group for at least temporary periods.

This has pressed my paranoid button too I confess, especially as it has taken me three attempts to post this.

I don't think you will have been 'miserabled' though.

[Jennywocky]

I think you are dead wrong about the logs.
Here are the last 15 entries:
Post Edited
Post Edited
Post Edited
Post Edited
Thread moved to 'The Emporium'.
Post merged from multiple posts
Poll Edited
Thread split to threadid 24371.
Post Edited
Thread title changed
Thread moved to 'MBTI Talk'.
Post Edited
Thread moved to 'Personal Threads'.
Thread moved with redirect to 'The Local Pub'.
Thread moved to 'Moved Threads'.
Exciting huh?

!!! omg -- you posted the Secret Logs !!!

[INFIDEL! The Evil Must Be Driven From Among Us!]

[LastRailway]

!!! omg -- you posted the Secret Logs !!!

[INFIDEL! The Evil Must Be Driven From Among Us!]

:rofl:

[stopharian]

I think you are dead wrong about the logs.

Here are the last 15 entries:

Post Edited
Post Edited
Post Edited
Post Edited
Thread moved to 'The Emporium'.
Post merged from multiple posts
Poll Edited
Thread split to threadid 24371.
Post Edited
Thread title changed
Thread moved to 'MBTI Talk'.
Post Edited
Thread moved to 'Personal Threads'.
Thread moved with redirect to 'The Local Pub'.
Thread moved to 'Moved Threads'.

Exciting huh?

Total red herring!!!

Im sure number 16 was a revealing move by the administration hence its exclusion from the list.

[nonperson]

Hans plays with Lotte, Lotte plays with Jane
Jane plays with Willi, Willi is happy again
Suki plays with Leo, Sacha plays with Britt
Adolf builds a bonfire, Enrico plays with it
-Whistling tunes we hid in the dunes by the seaside
-Whistling tunes we piss on the goons in the jungle
It's a knockout
If looks could kill, they probably will
In games without frontiers-war without tears
Games without frontiers-war without tears

Jeux sans frontieres

Andre has a red flag, Chiang Ching's is blue
They all have hills to fly them on except for Lin Tai Yu
Dressing up in costumes, playing silly games
Hiding out in tree-tops shouting out rude names
-Whistling tunes we hide in the dunes by the seaside
-Whistling tunes we piss on the goons in the jungle
It's a knockout
If looks could kill they probably will
In games without frontiers-wars without tears
If looks could kill they probably will
In games without frontiers-war without tears
Games without frontiers-war without tears

Jeux sans frontieres

...........whoops wrong thread............or is it??????????????

You lot need something to worry about...........

[C.J.Woolf]

Total red herring!!!

Im sure number 16 was a revealing move by the administration hence its exclusion from the list.
Wrong. It was number 0. :grin:

[Jen]

Whether he went on with the diary, or whether he did not go on with it, made no difference. The Thought Police would get him just the same. He had committed? would still have committed, even if he had never set pen to paper? the essential crime that contained all others in itself. Thoughtcrime, they called it. Thoughtcrime was not a thing that could be concealed forever. (I.1)

The Thought Police (thinkpol in Newspeak) are the secret police of Oceania in George Orwell's dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four. It is the job of the Thought Police to uncover and punish thoughtcrime and thought criminals, using psychology and omnipresent surveillance from telescreens to find and eliminate members of society who were capable of the mere thought of challenging ruling authority. The government attempts to control not only the speech and actions, but also the thoughts of its subjects, labeling unapproved thoughts with the term thoughtcrime, or, in Newspeak, crimethink.

"People simply disappeared, always during the night. Your name was removed from the registers, every record of everything you had ever done was wiped out, your one-time existence was denied and then forgotten. You were abolished, annihilated: vaporized was the usual word."
- George Orwell, 1984, Book 1, Chapter 1

[Lurker]

Whether he went on with the diary, or whether he did not go on with it, made no difference. The Thought Police would get him just the same. He had committed? would still have committed, even if he had never set pen to paper? the essential crime that contained all others in itself. Thoughtcrime, they called it. Thoughtcrime was not a thing that could be concealed forever. (I.1)

The Thought Police (thinkpol in Newspeak) are the secret police of Oceania in George Orwell's dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four. It is the job of the Thought Police to uncover and punish thoughtcrime and thought criminals, using psychology and omnipresent surveillance from telescreens to find and eliminate members of society who were capable of the mere thought of challenging ruling authority. The government attempts to control not only the speech and actions, but also the thoughts of its subjects, labeling unapproved thoughts with the term thoughtcrime, or, in Newspeak, crimethink.

"People simply disappeared, always during the night. Your name was removed from the registers, every record of everything you had ever done was wiped out, your one-time existence was denied and then forgotten. You were abolished, annihilated: vaporized was the usual word."
- George Orwell, 1984, Book 1, Chapter 1

Ok, now. Let's not get carried away. ;)

[helium]

[...] thoughtcrime [...]

Then it turned into action -- unnecessary, obnoxious action -- and people got tired of it. (And it wasn't even me.) The End.

[ajblaise]

Ok, now. Let's not get carried away. ;)

she can't hear you. she's been at camp inst. 451 for a few hours now.

[stopharian]

Ok, now. Let's not get carried away. ;)

I think that was what she was trying to say.

[Ivy]

Perhaps it's time for all sides to reel back the rhetoric, non? This isn't an Orwellian dystopia, but we can try to be decent to each other nonetheless.

I shut up now. :)

[nonperson]

Perhaps it's time for all sides to reel back the rhetoric, non? This isn't an Orwellian dystopia, but we can try to be decent to each other nonetheless.

I shut up now. :)

..... Penal Colony is a story about the last use of an elaborate torture and execution device that carves the sentence of the man on his skin in a flowery script before letting him die, all in the course of twelve hours. As the plot unfolds, the narrator learns more and more about the machine, including its origin, and original justification. from Well-wicked-pedia

Sounds familiar.......

[Rhu]

...but we can try to be decent to each other nonetheless.

To quote another A-grade piece of literature:

"Be excellent to each other, and... party on, dudes."
--Abe Lincoln

[nonperson]

To quote another A-grade piece of literature:

"Be excellent to each other, and... party on, dudes."
--Abe Lincoln

Most excellent dude!

[Rhu]

Most excellent dude!

*air guitar*

[Ivy]

Strange things are afoot at the Central K...

[ajblaise]

Perhaps it's time for all sides to reel back the rhetoric, non? This isn't an Orwellian dystopia, but we can try to be decent to each other nonetheless.

*hears Everyday People in the background as he reads*

that was beautiful ivy

[stopharian]

Perhaps it's time for all sides to reel back the rhetoric, non? This isn't an Orwellian dystopia, but we can try to be decent to each other nonetheless.

I shut up now. :)


Thats just the sweet little ISFJ in you wanting some closure and reconciliation.

Im over it, but as a group there are probably posters just stumbling into the forum now after a long weekend and just becoming aware of the juicy details. There might be people forming opinions on this tomorrow. INTPs might never come to a consensus as a group as to when a topic needs closure. They have to do it individually

There will probably be closure fairly soon but the sad thing about the interweb is that there is never any reconcilliation. We're all strangers who owe nothing to one another and so we will endlessly back up our own position.

No, wounds are never healed in cyberspace.

[Rajah]

No, wounds are never healed in cyberspace.:( That sounds so sad.



:hug:

[nonperson]

No, wounds are never healed in cyberspace.

No, but they can hear you scream thanks to VOIP!

[Skelly Keymeleon]

Hmmmm.
I believe that if a person is to learn anything from a punishment there should be a letter sent to the persons mailbox. Atleast stating the factual information as to why they HAVE BEEN PUNISHED so THEY CAN LEARN.
By the way my mailbox is empty?

[stopharian]

Hmmmm.
I believe that if a person is to learn anything from a punishment there should be a letter sent to the persons mailbox. Atleast stating the factual information as to why they HAVE BEEN PUNISHED so THEY CAN LEARN.
By the way my mailbox is empty?


Dont feel left out. I just PM'd you a warning.

[nonperson]

Do re-offenders get assassinated by the Kitten?

[MadamI'madaM]

Dont feel left out. I just PM'd you a warning.

Impersonating a mod?

Off to the fraudulent usergroup!:devil:

[nonperson]

Dont feel left out. I just PM'd you a warning.

I was going to do this, but was scared I would get a PM from a Mod' about stalking......

[stopharian]

Impersonating a mod?

Off to the fraudulent usergroup!:devil:

It wasnt a warning concerning the Forum, it was just a general warning on principle.

[MadamI'madaM]

It wasnt a warning concerning the Forum, it was just a general warning on principle.

concerning thinly veiled cries for attention, I presume?

EDIT: just kidding, please don't put me in the hole :puppy:

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z286/americanpsychonaut/it-puts-the-lotion-on-its-skin.jpg

[Hustler]

Hmmmm.
I believe that if a person is to learn anything from a punishment there should be a letter sent to the persons mailbox. Atleast stating the factual information as to why they HAVE BEEN PUNISHED so THEY CAN LEARN.
By the way my mailbox is empty?

We're not here in the capacity of schoolteachers or parents or prison wardens. We're not in the business of teaching people lessons through punishment. We're vindictive assholes with super accounts and nuke buttons who have conspired to create an e-dystopia with ourselves as the omnipotent overlords. Duh.

[Limey]

<wades through the murky lag and incessant timeouts <refresh refresh refresh> to make a final point>

It takes a special kind of incompetent "vindictive asshole" to actually turn one of the least popular, and I might add, non-INTP members into a fucking martyr!
How failure and fuckup is that?
:stupid:

The whole debacle here absolutely reeks of the result of lesser types primary processing functions.
I don't know if it's a claim to fame that some INTPs "pwn" Passive Aggressive on behalf of the others to the point that you could almost generalize on them for it as a collective, but I wouldn't claim it when describing MBTI to a newb if I were INTP.

I feel sorry for the well adjusted INTPs, the ones with lives, who have a significant other that likes them and they like with hobbies and a job that they enjoy, without any overriding caveats to their MBTI type, which some obviously live behind.

INTPs coming here, for like-minded, primarily NT conversation, (my reason) are going to be very sorely disappointed when they find that the SJ permeates every level of the world, both real and virtual, logical and physical.

All MBTI types can be all things and for any of those people with an overriding, delimiting, caveat creating attribute, all bets are off as to whether they can even do anything [right].

There is no "cool INTP hangout for like-minded people to get together" even if you keep all of the people out that are honest about their type, hell even if you keep out the people that were honest. There's enough diversity, ranging from easily hurt feelings/innocence abused to psychotic skater boy via uber nerd and mini Malcolm-X that it becomes apparent that the emperor has no clothes.

A quick closing one-liner for the F types and some of the NTs that might as well have been another type, or as usual, didn't get any of my past subtlety, irony or sarcasm:

We're like snowflakes - everyone is unique, paradoxically, just like every-fucking-body-else.

<now do I twirl, show my palms or just turn and walk from the dim and into the sunshine?>
I'm going outside, wish me luck ;-)

[ajblaise]

i didn't read his post but i genuinely smiled when i saw that he had made a post in this thread.

[Hustler]

Wow, that was a huge display of emo-drama for an INTJ.

[apple]

Wow, that was a huge display of emo-drama for an INTJ.

:lol: Yes, seems more likely of an INFJ

[ajblaise]

:lol: Yes, seems more likely of an INFJ

just because somebody cries semi-a lot doesn't make them an INFJ.

[apple]

just because somebody cries semi-a lot doesn't make them an INFJ.

I was commenting on Limey's particular sense of humor actually.

[kuranes]

Strange things are afoot at the Central K...

Indeed

[Madrigal]

I want to congratulate stopharian on such a brilliant title for this thread!

[nonperson]

I have just read Limey's post. What he says about snowflakes is wrong! :sadbanana:

They can be identical! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow)

Have I gone off topic? Had this sudden INTP urge to correct inaccuracies........






PS: Sorry to have referenced Well-wicked-pedia twice in one day.

[stopharian]

I want to congratulate stopharian on such a brilliant title for this thread!

Thank you Madam, but really, you are too good to me. I do my best, but surely I don't deserve all the praise that you heap upon me.

[FineLine]

Disclaimer: I'm just putting my own spin on things, in my own shorthand. Please try to roll with it. Try not to get hung up on whether I'm using every term exactly right in the clinical sense. INFPs use hyperbole and technical liberties to make their points. Again, please try to roll with it.

IMO, a lot of conflict comes down to Slippery Slope thinking (aka P thinking) versus Good/Bad thinking (aka J thinking).

Example 1:

As an INFP, my Fi gives me strong internal values and a sense that some things are very good and other things are very bad. Thus I apply Good/Bad thinking when I condemn overt typism in the posts of others or come to the defense of maligned types or functions. Thus, Fi = G/B. On the other hand, my Ne likes to roam far and wide in order to set up rambling spiderwebs of logic, and my Ne has no problem using minor amounts of typism as a rhetorical device to make a point in a debate, with the proviso that my version of typism is in a good cause and doesn't qualitatively match the kind of crude typism that others indulge. Thus I apply Slippery Slope thinking when I use typism myself for a good cause: Ne = SS.

Engaging in G/B criticism of typism in one context and SS use of typism in another context is petty hypocrisy, of course. But most people understand where I'm coming from and give me a pass on it. Then again, sometimes someone will call me on it. Let's say there is a hypothetical instance where someone uses Fe G/B thinking to accuse me of subtle typism even while I am making a case against crude typism elsewhere on the message board. It happens occasionally.

(I'll come back to that situation later.)

Example 2:

Ti gives INTPs a strong sense of procedures to follow and tools to use when analyzing a situation. In the mind of a Ti, some analytical tools and procedures are clearly good and some are clearly bad. Thus, Ti = G/B. On the other hand, the Ne of INTPs believes in expediency when handling a chaotic outer world and can justify the use of crude devices as an intermediate step toward the achievement of a logically sound end. Thus we get a situation where INTPs profess a desire to run a message board democratically and transparently, but also secretly (or sometimes not-so-secretly) use harassment and bullying to achieve their ends. One can understand their predicament. Pushing out the fluff will help achieve a logically sound goal of bringing about a good debate environment for the people posting content, and the Miserable User function is right there as part of vBulletin. (Ne = SS)

But the MU function is not the most democratic thing in the world. And any INTPs who fear being on the receiving end (or see someone they like being harassed by it) may well cease to care about the goal and be impelled for personal reasons to focus only on the damage being done to democracy (Ti G/B). IOW, some INTPs view the situation through Ne SS and think that bullying of fluff posters for a noble cause is fine; other INTPs view the same situation through the prism of Ti G/B and deplore the damage being done to the noble instrument of democracy, no matter what the cause.

Resolving the issue:

There is a real-world model for reconciling the conflict of G/B outlook versus SS outlook. The business world has to cope with the demands of both outlooks simultaneously at all times, and businesses have widely-accepted models and procedures for addressing these conflicts and resolving them. INxPs traditionally don't like the "corporate model," but it does work.

In short, you create avenues to address both G/B and SS outlooks. You serve the G/B outlook by publishing procedures and policies and by keeping everything as transparent as possible. Meantime, you serve the SS outlook by publishing codes of conduct and mission statements that are forward-looking and serve as justification for prodding behavior in certain directions, and you create multiple levels of appeals so that a problem can be looked at from a couple different angles.

Transparency is maintained by keeping the structure and policies transparent (if not necessarily all of the individual proceedings for resolving conflicts) and sticking to it religiously. Meantime, corporate inertia can be maintained in a given direction via clearly stated codes of conduct and mission statements that are kept in front of the users, nanny-fashion if need be.

Again, INxPs traditionally don't like the "corporate model." Thus, my description of this model might represent a solution, or it might sound so repellent that it will induce people to support the admins in their use of the Miserable Users function.

But I will end by pointing out the fundamental difference between the way INTP-c is currently run and the corporate model. INTP-c is currently run in a spirit of ad hoc (Ne SS) thinking. The corporate model, on the other hand, is a more balanced model that seeks to get rid of the abuses of ad hoc thinking while still maintaining the positives of long-range planning (in the form of forward-looking corporate inertia). Here are the abuses of ad hoc thinking, from a post of mine over at MBTI-c:


"Worse yet, when they are working in a large corporate structure or in a bureaucracy, bad bosses put the corporation at risk. Bad bosses yell at subordinates, engage in discrimination, ignore harassment situations occurring in their department, deny their employees access to benefits promised to them, etc."

The rest of the post is probably worth reading in light of what I've said:

http://www.mbticentral.com/forums/49885-post33.html

By way of summary, let me show how I would use the "corporate" approach to settle the hypothetical problem I mentioned in Example 1, where I was accused of typism.

It's tempting to fire back at the other party and accuse him of hypocrisy in return: I could accuse him of fomenting ill-will by sniping and nitpicking at petty hypocrisies and warn him that I can do the same to him in return if it gets down to a feud. IOW, I accuse him of the hypocrisy of being an anal-retentive gadfly (G/B outlook) even as he professes to speak for noble causes (SS outlook).

But the corporate model says that the G/B outlook and the SS outlook can, in fact, be reconciled (or at least can learn to live together). So the high road is to admit that he's right: I did, after all, engage in petty hypocrisy. Furthermore, I could have made that same rebuttal in the original post without such an overt typist snipe in the first place. I just made the snipe to get my creative juices going; it could have been removed or tone down after I framed the rest of the rebuttal. IOW, I can give him the G/B point, and the rest of my original SS rebuttal will still stand unharmed. Meantime the admins are free to prod him a bit and beat him up with the code of conduct if gadflying turns out to be a trend with him.

The essence of the corporate model is to allow room for both the anal-retentive G/B outlook and the free-floating hyperbolic SS outlook. They just make a little room for each other and agree to disagree.

In conclusion, let me just repeat the Disclaimer: I'm just putting my own spin on things, in my own shorthand. Please try to roll with it. Try not to get hung up on whether I'm using every term exactly right in the clinical sense. INFPs use hyperbole and technical liberties to make their points. Again, please try to roll with it.

Oh yeah, and I don't have any comment on the poll. I can deplore the ad hoc approach and the lack of transparency while acknowledging the legitimacy of wanting to cultivate the message board nanny-fashion and help it reach a higher potential. (Again, a mission statement and a code of conduct would help make that happen in a more transparent fashion.)

Just my INFP two cents, of course.

[Hustler]

Just my INFP two cents, of course.

Two cents? A two cent post is maybe three or four lines long. Yours was more like a C-note.

[FineLine]

Yours was more like a C-note.

So.... is that a compliment or an insult? :ph34r:

:smooch:

[Hustler]

So.... is that a compliment or an insult? :ph34r:

:smooch:
Let's just say I'm a big fan of brevity. And also NT-style (detached) communication.

[stopharian]

So.... is that a compliment or an insult? :ph34r:

:smooch:


Hustler is Anti non INTPs ........If it were left totally up to him the forum would be a bunch of INTPs silently online at the same time similar to the chatroom.

[Hustler]

Hustler is Anti non INTPs ........If it were left totally up to him the forum would be a bunch of INTPs silently online at the same time similar to the chatroom.
Yeah, that's some brilliant analysis, guy, because the INTPs never fucking post. Ever. If it weren't for the non-INTPs, there wouldn't be a single thread around here.

[FineLine]

Hustler is Anti non INTPs ........If it were left totally up to him the forum would be a bunch of INTPs silently online at the same time similar to the chatroom.

I know. I was just horsing around. You work with what you've got. :)

[booyalab]

I proposed this at one point.
A few people have, as I recall. ( <_< )



The only problem is the modbox is often used to blow off steam about some users rather than actually following through on the torture. Revealing this would lead to bad feelings. We have enough Fe explosions as it is.
Well if it was publicized, then that insular ranting would have to cease. Problem solved.





Keeping it hidden makes the madmins monolithic



*SEEM monolithic, PART of the time, to MOST people

[s0978]

Even though it is just a forum, "official" consequences get voted on and reasoned out. Evidently this is an unofficial consequence, more in the category of "playful antagonization" than "well-reasoned punishment." Kind of like messing around with aviators and such.

This early post summed up my outlook on the whole Miserable Users issue quite nicely.

As far as this recent to-do about forum management at INTPc- some of you want more transparency with/ involvement in moderation here. I think that's valid. It's your community.

But there's an existing management structure in place, and you have to work with us. In my time here, I've never seen sensationalist complain threads work- they just turn you into a joke. Why not try specific suggestions which are well-reasoned propositions.

Regarding public mod logs- I don't quite see the benefit, particularly weighed against the inevitable tedium of pointless arguments about minor thread moves. But I appreciate the idea as a thought-out concrete proposition. This is how one would get an idea for change taken seriously.

[booyalab]

I think that's valid. It's your community.



This issue has popped up before and this "it's your community" idea has not always been the general consensus among the madmins, and I sincerely doubt that it's the consensus now.

[s0978]

This issue has popped up before and this "it's your community" idea has not always been the general consensus among the madmins,

Agree. But I think we're much closer to it than before, say, than when you were a mod.*

And I don't mean to say I'm advocating a majority-rules system, more that I think the team in place is not quite as authority-loving as some seem to want to believe.


*edit- haha, not because you are no longer modding.

[Hustler]

Well if it was publicized, then that insular ranting would have to cease. Problem solved.
I used to be all for that. Now I don't care. It would create a bunch of new problems, but it would probably be a fun experiment, too. One caveat is that it would have to be publicized from that point forward; the old Modbox threads would have to be shipped off to cold storage, never to be heard from again. This is because people have been posting there over the years with the assumption that the information there is semi-private. It would be a violation of their trust that their posts were made under some degree of confidence if they were to all be made public.

Ultimately, to those who want more transparency, this seems better than it actually would be. Some exchanges would just be taken to PM, with resolutions presented to the entire Modbox and, as such, made public to the entire community. It's simply human nature to not want to go around offending and upsetting everyone around (I'm a rare exception, which I'm sure contributes to how I wouldn't mind it all being public anyway), and sometimes discussions on whether someone needs to be sent to Purgatory, or banned, be promoted to moderator, and so on contain some harsh criticisms. Those would likely start taking place more in PMs and less in threads.

All that said, I would have no trouble having a Modbox where only madmins could post but that everyone (except guests and Purgatorians) could view. I doubt it will happen, and I've lost the enthusiasm for the idea to actually try and make it happen, but if it does, that's fine.

[stopharian]

This early post summed up my outlook on the whole Miserable Users issue quite nicely.

As far as this recent to-do about forum management at INTPc- some of you want more transparency with/ involvement in moderation here. I think that's valid. It's your community.

But there's an existing management structure in place, and you have to work with us. In my time here, I've never seen sensationalist complain threads work- they just turn you into a joke. Why not try specific suggestions which are well-reasoned propositions.

Regarding public mod logs- I don't quite see the benefit, particularly weighed against the inevitable tedium of pointless arguments about minor thread moves. But I appreciate the idea as a thought-out concrete proposition. This is how one would get an idea for change taken seriously.

The one thing that I have never seen here is a mission statement or a cohesive written description of what is trying to be achieved here with a forum. Additionally the philosophies of the Madmins individually about what a forum is and how it should be administered to work towards that goal seem totally varied and sometimes at odds with one another.

Perhaps if the madmins themselves were at least on the same page as to what a forum actually is and what they were trying to achieve they would have a better idea about how to carry these things out.

[Hustler]

The one thing that I have never seen here is a mission statement or a cohesive written description of what is trying to be achieved here with a forum. Additionally the philosophies of the Madmins individually about what a forum is and how it should be administered to work towards that goal seem totally varied and sometimes at odds with one another.
It's all about the journey, not the destination.


Perhaps if the madmins themselves were at least on the same page as to what a forum actually is and what they were trying to achieve they would have a better idea about how to carry these things out.
I prefer the chaotic approach. It's more organic and allows for more possibilities and, being optimistic by nature, I prefer more possibilities.

[stopharian]

It's all about the journey, not the destination.


I prefer the chaotic approach. It's more organic and allows for more possibilities and, being optimistic by nature, I prefer more possibilities.

Then you're golden

Lets go with it!!!

[C.J.Woolf]

Well if it was publicized, then that insular ranting would have to cease. Problem solved.
It would go to PMs then.

[Rajah]

The one thing that I have never seen here is a mission statement or a cohesive written description of what is trying to be achieved here with a forum. Additionally the philosophies of the Madmins individually about what a forum is and how it should be administered to work towards that goal seem totally varied and sometimes at odds with one another.

Perhaps if the madmins themselves were at least on the same page as to what a forum actually is and what they were trying to achieve they would have a better idea about how to carry these things out.Mission statement? Cohesive written description? Christ, it's a forum of people talking. INTP people. You know, not Js who'd actually ask for such nonsense. The forum will continue to shape itself, depending on who the posters are. It's been working pretty well that way for a few years. Problems only arise when someone tries to impose their own structure on the forum.

And just to reassure you, the madmins are working together pretty well, actually. Fights? Nil.

[stopharian]

Mission statement? Cohesive written description? Christ, it's a forum of people talking. INTP people. You know, not Js who'd actually ask for such nonsense. The forum will continue to shape itself, depending on who the posters are. It's been working pretty well that way for a few years. Problems only arise when someone tries to impose their own structure on the forum.

And just to reassure you, the madmins are working together pretty well, actually. Fights? Nil.

Just from my observations, I think that if you asked each of the madmins what they actually thought a forum was and what they thought their purpose was here, you might be flabergasted by the differences in their replies. Im not saying that there is any dissent or fighting amongst the madmins. Just that consciously or subconsciously they might be working to achieve opposite goals with out realizing it.

The only reason that this occurs to me is because of my involvement in another web forum where I had over 4,000 posts(the only reason that I dont post there now is because it is a forum for expats in Shanghai and my life is not there) anyway my involvement in that forum (it was a similarly sized forum with generally a similar constituency and tenor which might seem counterintuitive until you think about how many ESJs actually post on web forums) has given me the opportunity to see the differences in administration styles between there and here, and additionally between the styles of moderation here. My guess is that amongst the Administration here you dont all even share the same basic definition of what forum means. Dont fall intothe trap of thinking that a forum of people talking means the same thing to every person, even INTPs.

Kind of off the topic but this is probably why I have been totally in shock at the SJ nature of this INTP forum. Most of the personalities on an Expat forum in a foreign country are at least as divisive as the personalities here. The posters are all confident business types wanting to blow off steam or people who are interesting and different enough to find themselves in a foreign culture. However, although there were warnings given, somehow they were able to run a web forum without letting it descend into chaos and at the same time in my entire time posting there they never ever banned a single established member(non bot) or limited someone to posting in purgatory.

[Dr. Haight]

I deleted the Miserable Users usergroup and I uninstalled the hack.

Now. . . STFU!


Thank you. And, I love you guys. :)

[stopharian]

I deleted the Miserable Users usergroup and I uninstalled the hack.

Now. . . STFU!


Thank you. And, I love you guys. :)

Doctor ...we havent always seen eye to eye, but I got to give a hand to somebody who speaks the language of productive action.

Thanks for all your hard work.

[Karl]

Yay.

Oh, and many pages ago Stopharian asked why I thought they had a good reason. My experience moderating is part of it, more often than not, the admins were in the right, but a lot of non-mods/admins didn't understood why. There's also the extreme leniency of this forum, as exemplified by, say, this topic. I would have locked this topic before it was a page long, made a topic that can't be replied to explaining why Limey had been acted against, and start up a discussion about the miserable group in the secret mod forum I'm sure they have. Or perhaps I would have deleted this and made a more objective poll with no replies allowed asking whether people were supportive or unsupportive of the miserable user group, if I needed more information.

I haven't seen any evidence of a corrupt administration. I do think some improvements could be made, one of which just has been made.

[stopharian]

Yay.

Oh, and many pages ago Stopharian asked why I thought they had a good reason. My experience moderating is part of it, more often than not, the admins were in the right, but a lot of non-mods/admins didn't understood why. There's also the extreme leniency of this forum, as exemplified by, say, this topic. I would have locked this topic before it was a page long, made a topic that can't be replied to explaining why Limey had been acted against, and start up a discussion about the miserable group in the secret mod forum I'm sure they have. Or perhaps I would have deleted this and made a more objective poll with no replies allowed asking whether people were supportive or unsupportive of the miserable user group, if I needed more information.

I haven't seen any evidence of a corrupt administration. I do think some improvements could be made, one of which just has been made.

All good reasons why your forum no longer exists and you still havent graduated high school.

Edited to add: your political bent doest support your ability to see evidence of corruption, arent you the guy who posted the Chinese Comunist Party's reasoning as evidence of the corruption of the Dali Lama.

[Stoned_Rider]

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/sexy_stewie.gif

[Rajah]

Doctor ...we havent always seen eye to eye, but I got to give a hand to somebody who speaks the language of productive action.

Thanks for all your hard work.Good Lord, stopharian, do you want an SJ administration or not? Pick one already!


:hug:

[Ivy]

cue the Benny Hill theme music!

(PS it was all my idea guys you can thank me in PMs)

(PPS not really!)

[stopharian]

Good Lord, stopharian, do you want an SJ administration or not? Pick one already!


:hug:

Sorry life is just more complex than all that. You gotta know when to hold em and know when to fold em.

edited to add: :hug:

[Rajah]

Sorry life is just more complex than all that. You gotta know when to hold em and know when to fold em.

edited to add: :hug:
:highfive:

[Karl]

All good reasons why your forum no longer exists and you still havent graduated high school.

I don't really consider the forum "mine," it's one head administrator's. And it still exists, although I am still a mod.

About high school, I'm sure in a year my understanding of how one should administer a web forum will suddenly explode, and I will become fully enlightened like yourself.



Edited to add: your political bent doest support your ability to see evidence of corruption, arent you the guy who posted the Chinese Comunist Party's reasoning as evidence of the corruption of the Dali Lama.
[/quote]

Um, no. I did try to say that their justification of going in on the grounds of corruption wasn't totally invalid, although they're not that uncorrupt themselves. I wasn't defending either side.

[Hermione]

Yay.

Oh, and many pages ago Stopharian asked why I thought they had a good reason. My experience moderating is part of it, more often than not, the admins were in the right, but a lot of non-mods/admins didn't understood why. There's also the extreme leniency of this forum, as exemplified by, say, this topic. I would have locked this topic before it was a page long, made a topic that can't be replied to explaining why Limey had been acted against, and start up a discussion about the miserable group in the secret mod forum I'm sure they have. Or perhaps I would have deleted this and made a more objective poll with no replies allowed asking whether people were supportive or unsupportive of the miserable user group, if I needed more information.

I haven't seen any evidence of a corrupt administration. I do think some improvements could be made, one of which just has been made.

Excuuze me, the 'extreme leniency of this forum ... exemplified by this topic' . Where in the world have you grown up dear? Let me guess, you got adopted by my ex-husband . geez , what world are you in? Oh, and so so sorry and all, too.

Anyway, just from reading this one little paragraph of yours, I'm so so glad you don't say, run a country or something. wow

[MacGuffin]

My favorite toy is gone!

:cry:

[stopharian]

Excuuze me, the 'extreme leniency of this forum ... exemplified by this topic' . Where in the world have you grown up dear? Let me guess, you got adopted by my ex-husband . geez , what world are you in? Oh, and so so sorry and all, too.

Anyway, just from reading this one little paragraph of yours, I'm so so glad you don't say, run a country or something. wow

You have to admit hell make a fine commie. Reminds me of my run ins whith chinese secret police.

[Ivy]

Hermione, have you been on any other forums? This one actually is quite open and lenient, compared to some I've participated in. Not as much as others, true, but you make it sound like this place is tightly locked down which I don't think is the case.

[apple]

Let's just say I'm a big fan of brevity. And also NT-style (detached) communication.

I just want the bottom line. :grin:

[Ferrus]

This one actually is quite open and lenient, compared to some I've participated in. Not as much as others, true, but you make it sound like this place is tightly locked down which I don't think is the case.
This much I agree - and the only forums I've been to that were more lenient tended to be a little smaller.

I think the point Hermione and others are trying to express though is that whilst this place lacks formal restrictions there are a great deal of 'non-spoken' and latent control.

[Karl]

Excuuze me, the 'extreme leniency of this forum ... exemplified by this topic' . Where in the world have you grown up dear? Let me guess, you got adopted by my ex-husband . geez , what world are you in? Oh, and so so sorry and all, too.

Anyway, just from reading this one little paragraph of yours, I'm so so glad you don't say, run a country or something. wow

Democracy works a lot better in real life than it does in a webforum. I wish you (you in the plural) would stop trying to generalize my political views by using my understanding of how a webforum should be run...

[Architectonic]

This much I agree - and the only forums I've been to that were more lenient tended to be a little smaller.

The problem with too much lenience is that it degenerates into this:

http://www.dasmusik.net/forums/

[Zero Angel]

DUGG

[stopharian]

Democracy works a lot better in real life than it does in a webforum. I wish you (you in the plural) would stop trying to generalize my political views by using my understanding of how a webforum should be run...

Uhm but you keep doing it to yourself..

You dont believe that democracy works in real life so how can we take your statement seriously.

Additionally you outlined specific steps that you would have taken which I think the lions share of people can agree would have blown this forum apart like a tinder keg.


My take is that Hermione was reacting to your post more specifically than to her view of this forum.

[Karl]

You dont believe that democracy works in real life so how can we take your statement seriously.


... I just said I did believe democracy works in real life.



Additionally you outlined specific steps that you would have taken which I think the lions share of people can agree would have blown this forum apart like a tinder keg.


That has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with democracy.

[int]

My favorite toy is gone!

:cry:

Lol. Well just so it doesn't seem like anyone is left hanging, there was no madmin objection when Haight said he was going to get rid of the Usergroup.

[Melody]

Lol. Well just so it doesn't seem like anyone is left hanging, there was no madmin objection when Haight said he was going to get rid of the Usergroup.heh. not after everyone knows of its existence, there wouldn't be

[Ferrus]

The problem with too much lenience is that it degenerates into this:

http://www.dasmusik.net/forums/
The problem with that forum seems more to be that it is full of morons. Maybe I am being uncharitable here. Oh well.

[Hermione]

Hermione, have you been on any other forums? This one actually is quite open and lenient, compared to some I've participated in. Not as much as others, true, but you make it sound like this place is tightly locked down which I don't think is the case.

No, no not at all. It was my reactive genetic-make up that just doesn't go with a lot of authoritarian style so much in anything, in any arena at all. Tends to make things worse to be very uh, parental in style with adults, and to be extremely harsh with children even, same thing. Which is , what he was pointing at with admiration I do believe.

And no, I haven't been as I have said several times. As far as 'attitude, style, uh structure' in this forum. I have not said my thawts so much as just that not so sure it is all black and white at all. Very gray area. When I am presented therefore with 'it's all white, it's very pale by comparison' , I will normally say, no gray perhaps even dark gray at times. See? It simply isn't as simple as all that , this issue.

[int]

heh. not after everyone knows of its existence, there wouldn't be


"And so it goes."

[MacGuffin]

*secretly reinstalls M.U.*

[Jen]

Disclaimer: I'm just putting my own spin on things, in my own shorthand. Please try to roll with it. Try not to get hung up on whether I'm using every term exactly right in the clinical sense. INFPs use hyperbole and technical liberties to make their points. Again, please try to roll with it.

IMO, a lot of conflict comes down to Slippery Slope thinking (aka P thinking) versus Good/Bad thinking (aka J thinking).

Example 1:

As an INFP, my Fi gives me strong internal values and a sense that some things are very good and other things are very bad. Thus I apply Good/Bad thinking when I condemn overt typism in the posts of others or come to the defense of maligned types or functions. Thus, Fi = G/B. On the other hand, my Ne likes to roam far and wide in order to set up rambling spiderwebs of logic, and my Ne has no problem using minor amounts of typism as a rhetorical device to make a point in a debate, with the proviso that my version of typism is in a good cause and doesn't qualitatively match the kind of crude typism that others indulge. Thus I apply Slippery Slope thinking when I use typism myself for a good cause: Ne = SS.

Engaging in G/B criticism of typism in one context and SS use of typism in another context is petty hypocrisy, of course. But most people understand where I'm coming from and give me a pass on it. Then again, sometimes someone will call me on it. Let's say there is a hypothetical instance where someone uses Fe G/B thinking to accuse me of subtle typism even while I am making a case against crude typism elsewhere on the message board. It happens occasionally.

(I'll come back to that situation later.)

Example 2:

Ti gives INTPs a strong sense of procedures to follow and tools to use when analyzing a situation. In the mind of a Ti, some analytical tools and procedures are clearly good and some are clearly bad. Thus, Ti = G/B. On the other hand, the Ne of INTPs believes in expediency when handling a chaotic outer world and can justify the use of crude devices as an intermediate step toward the achievement of a logically sound end. Thus we get a situation where INTPs profess a desire to run a message board democratically and transparently, but also secretly (or sometimes not-so-secretly) use harassment and bullying to achieve their ends. One can understand their predicament. Pushing out the fluff will help achieve a logically sound goal of bringing about a good debate environment for the people posting content, and the Miserable User function is right there as part of vBulletin. (Ne = SS)

But the MU function is not the most democratic thing in the world. And any INTPs who fear being on the receiving end (or see someone they like being harassed by it) may well cease to care about the goal and be impelled for personal reasons to focus only on the damage being done to democracy (Ti G/B). IOW, some INTPs view the situation through Ne SS and think that bullying of fluff posters for a noble cause is fine; other INTPs view the same situation through the prism of Ti G/B and deplore the damage being done to the noble instrument of democracy, no matter what the cause.

Resolving the issue:

There is a real-world model for reconciling the conflict of G/B outlook versus SS outlook. The business world has to cope with the demands of both outlooks simultaneously at all times, and businesses have widely-accepted models and procedures for addressing these conflicts and resolving them. INxPs traditionally don't like the "corporate model," but it does work.

In short, you create avenues to address both G/B and SS outlooks. You serve the G/B outlook by publishing procedures and policies and by keeping everything as transparent as possible. Meantime, you serve the SS outlook by publishing codes of conduct and mission statements that are forward-looking and serve as justification for prodding behavior in certain directions, and you create multiple levels of appeals so that a problem can be looked at from a couple different angles.

Transparency is maintained by keeping the structure and policies transparent (if not necessarily all of the individual proceedings for resolving conflicts) and sticking to it religiously. Meantime, corporate inertia can be maintained in a given direction via clearly stated codes of conduct and mission statements that are kept in front of the users, nanny-fashion if need be.

Again, INxPs traditionally don't like the "corporate model." Thus, my description of this model might represent a solution, or it might sound so repellent that it will induce people to support the admins in their use of the Miserable Users function.

But I will end by pointing out the fundamental difference between the way INTP-c is currently run and the corporate model. INTP-c is currently run in a spirit of ad hoc (Ne SS) thinking. The corporate model, on the other hand, is a more balanced model that seeks to get rid of the abuses of ad hoc thinking while still maintaining the positives of long-range planning (in the form of forward-looking corporate inertia). Here are the abuses of ad hoc thinking, from a post of mine over at MBTI-c:



The rest of the post is probably worth reading in light of what I've said:

http://www.mbticentral.com/forums/49885-post33.html

By way of summary, let me show how I would use the "corporate" approach to settle the hypothetical problem I mentioned in Example 1, where I was accused of typism.

It's tempting to fire back at the other party and accuse him of hypocrisy in return: I could accuse him of fomenting ill-will by sniping and nitpicking at petty hypocrisies and warn him that I can do the same to him in return if it gets down to a feud. IOW, I accuse him of the hypocrisy of being an anal-retentive gadfly (G/B outlook) even as he professes to speak for noble causes (SS outlook).

But the corporate model says that the G/B outlook and the SS outlook can, in fact, be reconciled (or at least can learn to live together). So the high road is to admit that he's right: I did, after all, engage in petty hypocrisy. Furthermore, I could have made that same rebuttal in the original post without such an overt typist snipe in the first place. I just made the snipe to get my creative juices going; it could have been removed or tone down after I framed the rest of the rebuttal. IOW, I can give him the G/B point, and the rest of my original SS rebuttal will still stand unharmed. Meantime the admins are free to prod him a bit and beat him up with the code of conduct if gadflying turns out to be a trend with him.

The essence of the corporate model is to allow room for both the anal-retentive G/B outlook and the free-floating hyperbolic SS outlook. They just make a little room for each other and agree to disagree.

In conclusion, let me just repeat the Disclaimer: I'm just putting my own spin on things, in my own shorthand. Please try to roll with it. Try not to get hung up on whether I'm using every term exactly right in the clinical sense. INFPs use hyperbole and technical liberties to make their points. Again, please try to roll with it.

Oh yeah, and I don't have any comment on the poll. I can deplore the ad hoc approach and the lack of transparency while acknowledging the legitimacy of wanting to cultivate the message board nanny-fashion and help it reach a higher potential. (Again, a mission statement and a code of conduct would help make that happen in a more transparent fashion.)

Just my INFP two cents, of course.

That was impressive :theclap:

If you don't mind my asking, what is it that you do career wise?

[Park]

That was impressive :theclap:

If you don't mind my asking, what is it that you do career wise?

FL is a radio commercial script writer. At 500$ pr. transmitted sec. he knows how to bring in the cash.

[venerationOFrabbits]

FL is a radio commercial script writer. At 500$ pr. transmitted sec. he knows how to bring in the cash.

He's also an older gentleposter, which is nice.

[Park]

He's also an older gentleposter, which is nice.

Hey, FL is one of my favorite INFP posters. His posts takes a little longer but usually allways contain something valuable.

[FineLine]

That was impressive :theclap:

If you don't mind my asking, what is it that you do career wise?


FL is a radio commercial script writer. At 500$ pr. transmitted sec. he knows how to bring in the cash.


He's also an older gentleposter, which is nice.


Hey, FL is one of my favorite INFP posters. His posts takes a little longer but usually allways contain something valuable.


:grin: Thanks for the compliments. And Park isn't so far off. In my field we tend to get paid by the word. Lots of words = lots of $.

My field is foreign languages, and I'm an executive at a big international organization. Basically I'm just a glorified translator in the organization's Support Services. But across the years I've been moving up into the management ranks, and so occasionally I have to put on my jacket and tie and take on some executive-level project or other.

So mostly I'm about foreign languages. But I'm also increasingly playing around with executive-level administrative and leadership functions, and I'm gaining more appreciation for what those functions can accomplish in an organizational setting.

[Hermione]

Well it's just too bad you're so nice and all, too, FL. We could use your skillz here. The translator/mediator thing would be nice.

Until that post comes available though, I think we just continue to 'slug it out' the best we can.

Getting thrown in the tower isn't so bad actually. More time to think straight and much less 'feedback' (vapid fucking critcism) and all that. Sometimes nothing works for me better than the F word though, so I just live with the consequences of being all that.

There are those things in life.
And yeah, if the victim so chooses to pursue me rabidly, I will go to the 'way in your face' response, too.

Oh, and 'vaporizing' people works well, too. I try not to do that to the federal types. Prison system prolly wouldn't work out for me. And to be arrested by the homeland security people who are all on-line predators and all sorts of wankers like that. ewww

So much of my normal life is spent mediating and being patient and even kind. Yes, really. Well, they pay me to do that and unfortunately I excel alot at my job.

[Spring]

*secretly reinstalls M.U.*

You really should. What we don't know can't hurt us. Well unless we piss you off. ;)

[FineLine]

Well it's just too bad you're so nice and all, too, FL. We could use your skillz here. The translator/mediator thing would be nice.

Until that post comes available though, I think we just continue to 'slug it out' the best we can.

Eh. I'm not looking for a steady position. I just figured I would parachute in and offer a different perspective. But aside from that, I'm content to depart from the playing field here at INTP-C and watch from the sidelines while you guys do your INTP thing together. :banana:

I do most of my posting over at MBTI-C.

[FineLine]

*secretly reinstalls M.U.*

:lol:

Incorrigible bastards.

[chicane]

Keeping the punishment a secret will not be efficient because people will not know why they are being punished, so it wouldn't deter or discourage the behavior...which is what the administrators want at the first place, no?

[nonperson]

Keeping the punishment a secret will not be efficient because people will not know why they are being punished, so it wouldn't deter or discourage the behavior...which is what the administrators want at the first place, no?

Bless your little cotton doggie socks!

[MacGuffin]

I say bring it back.

[FineLine]

Like I said--incorrigible. Unrepentant, irredeemable, and hopeless.

:happpy:

[Limey]

i'll say...Limey's a ****** and i'm glad that they messed with him a little bit, and to me, when ******'s get fucked around with, it's always funny and well and probably humanitarian in the broad scope.

I pretty much agree with Poll choice 1 (assuming i like those in control), but Poll choice 2 is right.


Here's a pic a friend took of me pissing on the Secret Prison, you can kinda see Limey just starring at my wiener from inside that trailer, but his face is hard to make out:

http://www.passcal.nmt.edu/%7Ebob/passcal/catscan/images/3778.jpg

My face was laughing, it wasn't that cold.

[Qfwfq]

So are any of these forms of prosecution still in practice, or is my computer just as slow as Limey's hounds?

(I mean he's poking his shriveled meat through the gate and everything)