Kids Today (A Long Rant That May or May Not Be Interesting)

[Eileen]

God.

At risk of sounding SJ, kids today really suck. Maybe it's just the population I teach, because I do believe that there are social reasons for certain behavior patterns in certain populations, but good effin' Lord.

I can appreciate aversion to authority, but I cannot abide RUDENESS! If a kid politely asked what the purpose of an assignment was and expressed his skepticism about its value, I really do think that I could handle that, but that is simply not what I face every day! I face swearing and talking back and this one kid who has this habit of talking to people who are passing in the hallway and declaring my class BORING to them (he's alseep when I do my more engaging activities, often, or doesn't participate in the particularly engaging activities I assign even if he's awake). I am no prude, but it shocks me what comes out of these kids' mouths, and how little regard they have for how it may affect anyone else.

And I try to teach them critical thinking, but so many of them are either unwilling to learn (they don't see the point, and won't listen to reason about it) or actually seem like they don't have any of the tools they need to even BEGIN thinking critically. I believe they can learn (as our ILT coach says "All children can learn") but I doubt that many of them will (contrary to the rest of her phrase, "All children WILL learn"). It's hard to maintain any kind of optimism for the future when you teach a bunch of kids who are clearly going to end up either dead or in jail by 25.

Part of this is just par for the course, I guess, and maybe it will get better with time, but I really thought (this is idealistic) going into education, I would be able to make some kind of positive difference, and I really believed that kids would rise to high expectations... but I don't think I have, and I don't think they do.... not as much as I'd hoped, anyway. I can blame lots of things for the latter, though. They've never been expected to achieve by their parents, many teachers, or peers... so my expectations seem unreasonable.

And then there are all the problems with the system, which I won't go into. I love public school and I am committed to seeing it to a better end, but it's failing everybody right now.

Oh, and there is a total lack of ability to take any kind of responsibility for ones actions. Is this a teenager thing that they'll grow out of? Possibly. Do I see it in their parents? I do indeed.

Today I hate my job and I don't know if I'll ever be able to love it, and if I don't, I will feel (irrationally) that I have failed myself and those who I am supposed to serve. But how can I serve someone who will not receive the service?

This is very rambly and probably excessively NF for this setting, and I am very tired, and I have 12385798325987345 papers to grade, and I don't want to go to school tomorrow.

[Edmond Zedo]

Just give grades based on your hate.

[Eileen]

Just give grades based on your hate.

Hahahahahahahaha, I should assign a value of 0 for the terms "LITTLE MOTHERFUCKING ASSHOLE" in integrade that will show up on their progress reports.

[Edmond Zedo]

indiejade? What? Mothertrucker?

[Eileen]

Yeah, it's too bad that I would totally get fired if I uttered many of the things that go through my head every day in fourth period, even though students are allowed to say whatever they're thinking at the time because apparently restraint is not a necessary skill...

ehhhh... they're teenagers, and the ones who don't grow out of that will probably get shot in the face by one of their peers, so... survival of the fittest?



Damn, I for real should just go to bed tonight.

[indie]

?

I've missed you, Zedo.

;)

[Edmond Zedo]

Why thank you. :)

[mgb]

I would just stick the really bad ones in the back with their desks facing the corner. If they won't participate, fuck'em (not literally, that might get you in a lot of trouble).

Keep the door closed so they aren't look outside the room. Leave their learning up to them...make them choose between boring activites or fun one based on the attitude of the group. Turn class into something closer to basic training.

[Nyairj]

There's actually a very simple, effective way to deal with troublemakers.

First, get rid of your ruler. You need one of these (http://www.imi3d.com/html/tnclub.jpg).

Next, get the cutest bunny you can find. Like this little guy (http://animal-world.com/encyclo/featured_pets/Critters/Luna/luna2.jpg). Bring him to class and introduce everyone to the new class pet. Undoubtly, everyone will go on and on about how adorable he is, and how cute his nose is, and those precious little eyes. And they'll want to pet him, of course. But before they close in, you'll come down on him with your new ruler. Splat. :)

Do not wash your ruler off. Use it every day while instructing the class. Not as a threat, mind you; it'll just serve as a reminder that there are alternatives to good behavior.

[Eileen]

LMAO.

That is a really cute bunny. Just... so cute.

Hahahahahahahaha.

I need some INTP administrators, yo.

[mgb]

The best way I've seen of teaching was Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter.....and Spring.

Treat the kids the way they treat others. That may involve using the rulers.

[Star]

Oh, please don't let this make you become classist.. I attended a poor public high school and (I know this sounds cliche but it's true) I really don't know who I'd be today if it hadn't been for the teachers, who cared enough to treat me as if I might be more than a criminal or a soon-to-be welfare mom.

It's such an important job. I almost wish I could be INFJ and do it myself! (Almost. :D )

Maybe you could look around and try to find just one or two shy kids who really need you? That's probably what I'd do.. I have a really soft spot for introverted kids. The rest I'd rather have in a jar on my desk, though. :)

[songbird36]

There are a lot of kids like the ones you describe at my sons' school (which is fairly low decile). It is depressing I must admit - these seem to be kids without any drive, ambition, imagination, or real sense of where they might end up in life.

I have been exposed to these children first hand through doing parent help at the school. They are difficult to teach, help or motivate, and they are often rude, sullen or cheeky. On occasion they are over-sexualised for their age as well (which is possibly worse than any of the above).

I blame the parents almost entirely. While this may sound harsh, the buck actually does stop at parents, whatever anyone may say to the contrary. Even children from the most economically deprived backgrounds can be given options, opportunities, and dedicated time and attention from their parents (assuming the parents are not otherwise engaged in sex, substance abuse, or other such diverting activities)..

[Nyairj]

You're not the only teacher with kids that drive you up the wall. I haven't looked into it, but there's probably a good deal of information from experts and teachers who have been in your situation that could help you. Maybe it would help to read up on child psychology. Perhaps you could ask other teachers at the school about their experiences.

I don't know a whole lot about this stuff, but here's my best shot anyway.

In Influence, Robert B. Cialdini writes that people (including perhaps rambunctious children) are ruled by what is called the Reciprocation Principle. Basically, when someone does something for you, you feel obligated to return the favor. This works regardless of whether they like you or not, and you can often get a large favor in return for a small one.

Perhaps you could come up with an excuse to, say, get the class pizza. Don't make them earn it; just give it to them. It is best to do it on a holiday or other special occasion, so they don't suspect that you are trying to bribe them.

Make them like you. Cialdini reveals the secret of Joe Girard, "the world's greatest salesmen": he sent a special greeting card to his former customers every month. All he wrote was "I like you", and his name. The cost of the cards was nothing compared to the huge profits he raked in.

Maybe you could try something like what Girard did. At the beginning of the year, get them to tell you their birthdays, and make sure to give them cards on those days. Give them cards on Christmas or any other time you feel its appropriate. This makes them like you and it is especially effective because it incorporates the reciprocation principle.

When they do something good, make sure to compliment them. Even the bad kids.

Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends & Influence People has some tips that might be helpful. For example, he suggests giving the other person a reputation to live up to. You might find this example particularly relevant to you:


"When Mrs. Ruth Hopkins, a fourth-grade teacher in Brookyln, New York, looked at her class roster the first day of school, her excitement and joy of start a new term was tinged with anxiety. In her class this year she would have Tommy T., the school's most notorious 'bad boy'. His third-grade teacher had constantly complained about Tommy to colleagues, the principal and everyone else who would listen. He was not just mischievous; he caused serious discipline problems in the class, picked fights with the boys, teased the girls, was fresh to the teacher, and seemed to get worse as he grew older. His only redeeming feature was his ability to learn rapidly and master the school work easily. Mrs. Hopkins decided to face the 'Tommy problem' immediately. When she greeted her new students, she made little comments to each of them: 'Rose, that's a pretty dress you are wearing.' 'Alicia, I hear you draw beautifully.' When she came to Tommy, she looked him straight in the eyes and said, 'Tommy, I understand you are a natural leader. I'm going to depend on you to help me make this class the best class in the fourth grade this year.' She reinforced this over the first few days by complimenting Tommy on everything he did and commenting on how this showed what a good student he was. With that reputation to live up to, even a nine-year-old couldn't let her down--and he didn't."

There's more if you find any of this relevant or useful or interesting. It's getting late here, though, so it's time for me to get to bed.

[Eileen]

Welp.

It's about 4 AM teacher time (which is actually last hour of sleep time) and I've spent the whole evening vomiting up everything I've eaten in the past 24 hours! So I will be calling the school secretary at seven AM and saying, "Stomach flu! Sub! NOW!" and then I will dart in and get my plans together and then come back here and vomit some more.

While I hate vomiting, there is a part of me that wonders if some great cosmic force out there wanted to give me the day off.

(There isn't really a part of me that wonders that. I'm horribly nauseated and unhappy. But I'm glad I can get a sub so that I don't have to be horribly nauseated, unhappy, and with the students who suck.)

(Although I must say now that I'm not quite as bitter as I was about things--I do have mostly nice kids this semester who enjoy learning and are engaged in the process in a useful way. I just have about ten or so in fourth period who suck hard.)

[Utopmk]

Hey, teacher, leave those kids alone! All in all it’s just another brick in the wall.

(this isn't how i really feel, but I just couldn't resist. :) )

[Arioch]

"Youth today love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority, no respect for older people, and talk nonsense when they should work. Young people do not stand up any longer when adults enter the room. They contradict their parents, talk too much in company, guzzle their food, lay their legs on the table and tyrannize their teachers"

Now, can anyone tell me who said this quote and when?

[Eileen]

"Youth today love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority, no respect for older people, and talk nonsense when they should work. Young people do not stand up any longer when adults enter the room. They contradict their parents, talk too much in company, guzzle their food, lay their legs on the table and tyrannize their teachers"

Now, can anyone tell me who said this quote and when?

A quick Google query would suggest Socrates, 500 BC, about the youth of Athens.


..sigh. :) Sounds like my day at BHS. But not today. 'Cause I'm sick.

[glassmoon]

Nyairj - I think you have good advice but I think there can be a drastic change in the kids behaviour without a change in their homes. I learned this after reading Children: The Challenge.

By the way, one of the most useful psychology books I've ever read was Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends & Influence People, it's practical and easy.

[ApeTheDog]

Two words: Strip Teaching.

[floid]

My daughter uses the public school system as a babysitter for her children so that they will be "out of her hair".

Truth be told, so do many other parents.

Expel the kids who show "no interest in learning" and force their parent(s) to deal with them on a daily basis for a while.

You might then observe more parents doing their job.
The kids might learn respect.
Pick up some ethics, maybe even the beginning of "personal integrity".
After a while the idea of going to school and "learning something" might appeal to them.

At any rate it would keep the "disciplinary problems" at home with their parents where they belong and the "learners" in school where they belong.

There probably aren't any politicians with the guts to do it but it would make a difference and change public schools from being day care centers for lazy parents to being educational institutions again.

JMHO

[cjs55]

Yeah, this is a permanent condition of some children.

Doesn't mean it isn't annoying, but it isn't new either. Of course, when I was in High School, I was also an egotistical asshole (note, I say nothing about myself after High School =p). Only difference between me and other kids is that a) I was smarter than most of them, and b) I didn't like making my teachers feel bad. Thus I was never vocal about any opinions I may have had about how much the teacher or the class sucked ass. That said, I'm sure I made them feel bad anyways by my general apathy in HS.

[Eileen]

Yeah, this is a permanent condition of some children.

Doesn't mean it isn't annoying, but it isn't new either.

I know that it's not new, but where I am, it's rampant and I do think on the increase, and there are certain problematic things in place (at least where I am) that make it such that teachers really can't effectively deal with the problem children.


Expel the kids who show "no interest in learning" and force their parent(s) to deal with them on a daily basis for a while.

Sounds good, except that we can't leave any children behind, even the ones who want to be left behind. We're constantly working on drop-out prevention because we can't "leave them behind" and in the process we leave everyone behind. It's tragic, really.

[mgb]

Hey, teacher, leave those kids alone! All in all it’s just another brick in the wall.

(this isn't how i really feel, but I just couldn't resist. :) )

Poor CC will never get that.

[Claverhouse]

Two words: Strip Teaching.

That is one awesome thought.


[ Although I can think of some amongst my teachers from whom it would have been less welcome than others. ]



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[indie]

Oh, please don't let this make you become classist.. I attended a poor public high school and (I know this sounds cliche but it's true) I really don't know who I'd be today if it hadn't been for the teachers, who cared enough to treat me as if I might be more than a criminal or a soon-to-be welfare mom.

Very true for me as well, deepsky. . . as "cliche" as it sounds when you're an adult, those things matter a lot when you're that age. Keeping a strong, decent public school program is very important to the future of America. It shouldn't matter what background/family life a person comes from when it comes to education.

[Eileen]

Very true for me as well, deepsky. . . as "cliche" as it sounds when you're an adult, those things matter a lot when you're that age. Keeping a strong, decent public school program is very important to the future of America. It shouldn't matter what background/family life a person comes from when it comes to education.

:) Of course I believe this.

(I also believe that we have a ways to go before we have a "strong, decent public school program" but I AM committed to public schools as a concept and want to see them work better for all students.)

[indie]

Agreed: public schools as a concept still have a long way to go. I was mostly referring to the widespread (Republican) notion that schools should be privatized . . . that, IMO, would be incredibly damaging. :) I'll blame it on my ever-present philosophy that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, moreso today than ever.

[Edmond Zedo]

I'll blame it on my ever-present philosophy that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, moreso today than ever.
Not ever, mon amie. Ancient Rome took it to the max.

[songbird36]

I haven't seen a discussion of parents and parenting techniques enter this thread once (apart from when I raised it).

I don't think schools can, or should be expected to, right all the social wrongs and inadequacies in parenting and upbringing that exist in their students. Schools need to have a way of dealing with and responding to the needs of difficult students, but they can't be educators, parents and psychiatrists all rolled into one. There simply isn't the time or resources, and I don't think schools are well equipped to do this anyway, even if time and resources were available.

Parents have the primary responsibility (regardless of socio-economic status) not to raise violent and socially irresponsible teenagers. In poor areas they need more help and support in achieving this goal. I'm sick of teachers suffering stress and burnout and leaving the profession because of this problem.

[Eileen]

I believe floid mentioned parenting a bit.


I do agree, though, about parenting. It's just beyond frustrating.

You mention that poor areas may need help with this--how should this play out? Who should help?

[Sackanaka]

I'm not sure if it was implied earlier, but also gotta take into consideration that for some children, school is the salvation from the problems at home. As if the public school teachers didn't have enough on their backs :/

Has anyone mentioned about the "No-Child-Left-Behind" Act? is it still being imposed? I saw the name mentioned but not the Act itself being discussed. From what I know, that's gonna fuck up the entire school system, unless segregation is the key to nationwide salvation. Schools with low test-scoring students get less funding, and that's supposed to raise moral in the real world How? :/ Too idealistic thinking I think. Or is there more logic behind it?
Also, some bricks in the wall are more supportive than others in an imperfect, unbalanced structure ;)

[Nyairj]

I haven't seen a discussion of parents and parenting techniques enter this thread once (apart from when I raised it).

I don't think schools can, or should be expected to, right all the social wrongs and inadequacies in parenting and upbringing that exist in their students. Schools need to have a way of dealing with and responding to the needs of difficult students, but they can't be educators, parents and psychiatrists all rolled into one. There simply isn't the time or resources, and I don't think schools are well equipped to do this anyway, even if time and resources were available.

Parents have the primary responsibility (regardless of socio-economic status) not to raise violent and socially irresponsible teenagers. In poor areas they need more help and support in achieving this goal. I'm sick of teachers suffering stress and burnout and leaving the profession because of this problem.

I agree that parents are primarily responsible for their children's behavior. It's an uphill battle, though. There are no qualifications necessary to become a parent and nobody likes being told that they are raising their children the wrong way. If you try to get them to change their ways, it's likely they'll just become defensive and obstinate. The government could provide more aid to low income families with programs like Head Start, but attitudes and parenting styles are difficult to change.

I'm not sure what the best way of dealing with problem students is. Psychology works very well with adults, though, and I don't see why it wouldn't be effective with students as well. I don't think that teachers are obligated to use it, but it would probably be a great help to them and the students.

[Sackanaka]

Take it or leave it, but the manga GTO (http://www.angelfire.com/geek/tetrisnomiko/gto/gto.html) may help to inspire certain attitudes and strategies when dealing with students. It's translated in English and can be read at any Borders/Barnes&Noble/Waldenbooks and is definitely worth the read-thru if you have both time and patience for "cartoons."

[Eileen]

Has anyone mentioned about the "No-Child-Left-Behind" Act? is it still being imposed?

Yup. It's being imposed without adequate funding! ROCK!



I agree that parents are primarily responsible for their children's behavior. It's an uphill battle, though. There are no qualifications necessary to become a parent and nobody likes being told that they are raising their children the wrong way.


It's true. Here's a major problem where I'm teaching: the students are breeding lke crazy. Girls get pregnant all the time, it's normal, and they get LOTS AND LOTS of attention for it. These kids are the nth generation children of teen parents. Now, I don't want them to feel SHAME, exactly, but it's not something I think they ought to be proud of either, and many of these girls are. I think it's because, in part, they don't believe that they can produce anything else great besides a child. So 14-18 year olds are having children, and of course they don't know what to do with them! In the best situations, their mothers raise their babies, but obviously their mothers weren't particularly effective parents, so we can only pray that they've grown up since popping out babies in high school.

And the school's response? ABSTINENCE WEEK! Don't even get me started.

[ApeTheDog]

That is one awesome thought.
[ Although I can think of some amongst my teachers from whom it would have been less welcome than others. ]

Hehe. It works either way. With them, it could be: answer right, or I WILL strip.

I can imagine how frustrating this must be though, and the problem should be taken more seriously by the government. It all weighs down on the teachers shoulders.

Perhaps you could organise a strike, I don't know...

[heeroyuy]

As a student (junior) currently in highschool, I'm not sure which level you're teaching at, but here are some general things to avoid alienating the students who do wish to be there:

1) Do not bastardize the Socratic method. I've had one too many discussions where no one wanted a real opinion, but instead a simple regurgitation of a classic societal principle without any debate of what would truly be best, or what "best" was in this case. One teacher I'm so fed up with that I now refuse to "save" her from forcing the other students to say it. She'll shoot me sharp glances, "Travis, do you have anything to say about this?" "Not at all." If you hold a discussion, make sure you don't leave a student's dissenting opinion out until you've fully addressed it, or you WILL alienate people like me.

2) For students who are truly interested in the information, concentrate more on learning than the workload. Put alot more weight onto tests than homework. Come up with a snappy name for it the administration will love, like "personal grading weight adjustment: specialized learning," might try to put a word like synergy in there.

3) The students who are impolite, remove them or threaten them with disciplinary action. Follow through. I realize they don't give the teachers much power, this is a "fit the mold" area, but I know you have _some_ leeway.

4) Don't obsess over groupwork too much, if a kid wants to work alone on a group project, _let them_. One thing I know that always makes me want to work less is when I end up in a class I don't know anyone, or don't like anyone, and become stuck in a group full of lazy fools who just want me to do all the work. It ends up that no one does the work, as I'm so bitter that I just don't care what grade I get anymore.

Those would be my recommendations :)

[Biff_Loman]

Eileen: my twelve weeks of practice teaching made me want to die. I never even applied for any teaching jobs.

My suggestion is that you quit. If you turn out like other former teachers I have met, you won't second-guess yourself. I recently mentioned to someone I met that I'd rather have my teeth pulled out than teach. She just nodded and replied: "I know what you mean. I tried it."

As for making a difference. . . Regardless of how much potential there is for you to influence your students, how long will it take before you make a decision to benefit yourself? When will the day come when you simply have to acknowledge that you're not happy because your career sucks? There's nothing selfish about deciding against the masochistic exercise that is teaching.

[Dman]

Perhaps you're just ranting after all, but it sounds as if you're getting jaded. You need to continue to reflect on your situation and what first motivated you to become a teacher. If you are burning out, but stay in your position, you will only add to the problem. We all remember the teachers who were burned out, and the resulting education we received from them.

From the "Breakfast Club" - Dick Vernon: 'Each year these kids get more and more arrogant...These kids turned on me...' Carl the Janitor: 'C'mon Vern, the kids haven't changed - you have.'

Of course lack of parental involvement is the key issue here. That's a fact that has to be acknowledged and dealt with. I went to biz school with a HS teacher, and he expressed many of the same concerns you have. He said the single largest factor determining a kid’s success was how involved the parents were, hands down. He would find out which students were obviously lacking in this area but had potential, and he would get in the parents faces (diplomatically of course). He’d call them, arrange meetings, send stuff home to them that needed to be returned. He’d force them to get involved. Most parents WANT to be involved, they just don’t know how or they don’t make it a priority (I’m too busy). Make them get involved, make them pay attention. That’s all you can do.

He likened teaching to golf – most of the time your dissatisfied with your results, and wonder why you keep playing the frustrating game, but then you hit that one sweet one, that one that makes a difference, and that’s what keeps you coming back for more. If you keep your passion, your enthusiasm to make a difference in some kid’s life, you will make it come true – even if it’s only 1 out of 100 it’s worth it. If you lose that desire, you’ll become another bitter drone of a teacher, further alienating and disillusioning the kids.

[mgb]

As a student (junior) currently in highschool, I'm not sure which level you're teaching at, but here are some general things to avoid alienating the students who do wish to be there:

1) Do not bastardize the Socratic method. I've had one too many discussions where no one wanted a real opinion, but instead a simple regurgitation of a classic societal principle without any debate of what would truly be best, or what "best" was in this case. One teacher I'm so fed up with that I now refuse to "save" her from forcing the other students to say it. She'll shoot me sharp glances, "Travis, do you have anything to say about this?" "Not at all." If you hold a discussion, make sure you don't leave a student's dissenting opinion out until you've fully addressed it, or you WILL alienate people like me.

2) For students who are truly interested in the information, concentrate more on learning than the workload. Put alot more weight onto tests than homework. Come up with a snappy name for it the administration will love, like "personal grading weight adjustment: specialized learning," might try to put a word like synergy in there.

3) The students who are impolite, remove them or threaten them with disciplinary action. Follow through. I realize they don't give the teachers much power, this is a "fit the mold" area, but I know you have _some_ leeway.

4) Don't obsess over groupwork too much, if a kid wants to work alone on a group project, _let them_. One thing I know that always makes me want to work less is when I end up in a class I don't know anyone, or don't like anyone, and become stuck in a group full of lazy fools who just want me to do all the work. It ends up that no one does the work, as I'm so bitter that I just don't care what grade I get anymore.

Those would be my recommendations :)

You have to watch that you don't throw the babies out with the bath water. Some of those kids with attitude problems actually have a lot of potential and you just need to find a way to tap it. Some are just pains in the ass.

[songbird36]

It's true. Here's a major problem where I'm teaching: the students are breeding lke crazy. Girls get pregnant all the time, it's normal, and they get LOTS AND LOTS of attention for it. These kids are the nth generation children of teen parents. Now, I don't want them to feel SHAME, exactly, but it's not something I think they ought to be proud of either, and many of these girls are. I think it's because, in part, they don't believe that they can produce anything else great besides a child. So 14-18 year olds are having children, and of course they don't know what to do with them! In the best situations, their mothers raise their babies, but obviously their mothers weren't particularly effective parents, so we can only pray that they've grown up since popping out babies in high school.

And the school's response? ABSTINENCE WEEK! Don't even get me started.

Yeah I've heard that the "Purity pledge" type idea is catching on fast in the U.S as a substitute for proper sex education and advice on contraception.

I watched a TV doco on this recently, and in the Bible belt town where this was being preached, there was one of the highest rates of teen pregnancy in the entire State.

Evidently chastity on its own isn't a realistic aim.

[indie]

I'm not sure if it was implied earlier, but also gotta take into consideration that for some children, school is the salvation from the problems at home.

Exactly.

Some students think of school as an "escape" hatch in their inside-out world, where their parents are unreliable and the only thing that they can hope for is the future itself . . . for me (being personal and sentimental here) school was my ladder out of a hellish existence, it was the only thing that kept me going and knowing that there really was something "better" out there than being homeless or living in foster homes.

Public school teachers have enough on their plates, true, but they also have an opportunity to make a difference . . . I think that's why a lot of them choose to teach. As Dman said, being a teacher is a lot like golf . . . where "most of the time you're dissatisfied with your results, and wonder why you keep playing the frustrating game, but then you hit that one sweet one, that one that makes a difference, and that’s what keeps you coming back for more."

JMO, from a societial viewpoint. . .. The opportunity to obtain an education is as valuable as the education itself, for it is with access to opportunity that the weak are able to become strong.

[songbird36]

But make a difference to what Indie? Sure they can make a difference to the learning opportunities offered to a poor or deprived kid (and perhaps through their own ingenuity can even imbue that child with a love of learning for its own sake) but what I think they can't do (or be expected to do) is correct deficiencies in parenting that are so deep rooted in the child or teen's background that they have profoundly affected the child's behaviour and value systems.

That is too big an ask.

[Eileen]

My suggestion is that you quit.

Well, given that it is my first year, I think I'll stick it out for a while longer and see if it gets better. I love TEACHING; I just really suck at discipline AND I have difficult students.



Perhaps you're just ranting after all, but it sounds as if you're getting jaded. You need to continue to reflect on your situation and what first motivated you to become a teacher. If you are burning out, but stay in your position, you will only add to the problem.


I agree with your statement re: burnout teachers. However, I think I'm more tired than jaded. I can see myself burning out for a while, though, and doing something else. I suspect that I might always come back to teaching, though. When teaching is good, it's amazing. When it's bad, it's horrible. I go through a lot of highs and lows all in one day.

I really was just ranting. I've started out in a very difficult place with merely nominal administrative support, no parental involvement, and a (consequently) very hard-to-reach student population.

[Biff_Loman]

My apologies if my recommendation was, uh, premature.

[Eileen]

My apologies if my recommendation was, uh, premature.

:) It's okay. Some days I feel like quitting, but I am told this is normal during one's first year. This semester is soooooooooooooooooooooooo.... much better than last semester. THIS semester, I only have one bad class, as opposed to three last semester (we're on the 4x4 block, incidentally, so I only have 3 classes).

[CoHo]

Do your students ever have to evaluate you? This is done in the colleges and I can't stand it! It's always crap like "the teacher came in drunk again" blah blah blah!

[cjs55]

lol!!

[songbird36]

Well, given that it is my first year, I think I'll stick it out for a while longer and see if it gets better. I love TEACHING; I just really suck at discipline AND I have difficult students.



I just want to stop at this point in the thread and say this: I really, really admire you and what you are doing there Eileen. You are doing something that really *does* make a difference to this world and to the next generation (in contrast to people like me who make our living doing dry, technical pursuits).

I just hope and pray that you'll inspired to continue down this path, and that things will, in time, seem easier (or at least more manageable) for you.

[Geoff]

I just want to stop at this point in the thread and say this: I really, really admire you and what you are doing there Eileen. You are doing something that really *does* make a difference to this world and to the next generation (in contrast to people like me who make our living doing dry, technical pursuits).

I just hope and pray that you'll inspired to continue down this path, and that things will, in time, seem easier (or at least more manageable) for you.

I couldnt agree more. I enjoy teaching adults, it is part of my job - by way of technical lectures and quite a lot of one on one training. It is hard at times to get through the "I just dont understand" "I dont have time to learn" "Why does it matter if I dont know how to do it".
I can just imagine how hard this would be when you add teenage angst and hormones.
I too admire you for what you are doing. The world needs teachers who actually care about the system and its results. If they become too jaded to care about either, the results are appalling.

-Geoff

[indie]

But make a difference to what Indie? Sure they can make a difference to the learning opportunities offered to a poor or deprived kid (and perhaps through their own ingenuity can even imbue that child with a love of learning for its own sake) but what I think they can't do (or be expected to do) is correct deficiencies in parenting that are so deep rooted in the child or teen's background that they have profoundly affected the child's behaviour and value systems.

I didn't say that they should correct deficiencies in parenting. . . my post was a roundabout way of thanking EileenINFJ for doing what she does; my way of saying I'm glad that there are people like her in the world.

[Dman]

I didn't say that they should correct deficiencies in parenting. . . my post was a roundabout way of thanking EileenINFJ for doing what she does; my way of saying I'm glad that there are people like her in the world.

Right. People like Eileen can cause kids who think they are not good or interested in anything, open their eyes and potentially change them from being a burden on society to a contribution to society. That kind of difference - showing them a path where they don't have to end up like their parents or as another statistic from a broken home, that they can be educated and successful regardless of their background. The hard part is that sometimes the results do not show up for years, but it doesn't mean she isn't changing lives now.

Perhaps what she can do to prepare for a seemingly inevitable burnout down the road is continue higher education and plan on eventually becoming a university professor. K-12 kids definitely need inspirational teachers to help them along their way, but as those teachers begin to tire of the discipline involved, they can transition into a university setting where the focus is strictly on education...

[Zero Angel]

Dont worry too much about sounding SJ, my dad's an INFJ and he can easily be mistaken for an SJ (for his spirituality and practicality, or an SP due to his artistic virtuosity and even NT due to his logic at times!). INFJ sounds like a potentially wonderful temperament to have!

Thanks for presenting your point of view Eileen. I always thought the school system could use more improvement, and i've even tried to start a discussion with some of our local teachers re: that, but have been met with much resistance without any rationale.

When I was in school, it seemed like there were only a few teachers that actually gave a damn, but its an eye opener to see what kind of problems they have to go through. Especially when you've been teaching for years, I suppose its a different set of students each year, and it feels hopeless to focus too much on any of them. If there were many more teachers like you, then it wouldnt be so hard on anyone, but there isnt unfortunately, but you should look on the bright side and take pride in the fact that you're one of the few who actually tries to make a difference. You probably get a lot of respect from the students who do acknowledge your good qualities.

Cheers up :cheers:

[songbird36]

Yes. teachers are one of the professions I admire the most. The teachers at my sons' school (which is a Decile 3, out of 10), are absolutely fantastic. They are 100% committed, enthusiastic, kind, and innovative.

I take my hat off to them completely as they deal with difficult situations cheerfully and calmly, where I would probably do my nut.

[kruT]

How to take care of kids in school:
T-Shirt guns. They serve a dual purpose. A t-shirt for a good deed. And for a bad deed... a T-Shirt. :devil:

[QrioCT]

teaching is actually harder than it looks to the kids. i didnt know how hard it was until i tried it myself once.
the thing is, some kids dont really expect themselves to do good at school and dont expect themselves to care. and, what grade do you teach again?

[Miss Anthropic]

There's actually a very simple, effective way to deal with troublemakers.

First, get rid of your ruler. You need one of these (http://www.imi3d.com/html/tnclub.jpg).

Next, get the cutest bunny you can find. Like this little guy (http://animal-world.com/encyclo/featured_pets/Critters/Luna/luna2.jpg). Bring him to class and introduce everyone to the new class pet. Undoubtly, everyone will go on and on about how adorable he is, and how cute his nose is, and those precious little eyes. And they'll want to pet him, of course. But before they close in, you'll come down on him with your new ruler. Splat. :)

Do not wash your ruler off. Use it every day while instructing the class. Not as a threat, mind you; it'll just serve as a reminder that there are alternatives to good behavior.
Ok, I'm trying really hard not to take that personally....

[Miss Anthropic]

I know that it's not new, but where I am, it's rampant and I do think on the increase, and there are certain problematic things in place (at least where I am) that make it such that teachers really can't effectively deal with the problem children.



Sounds good, except that we can't leave any children behind, even the ones who want to be left behind. We're constantly working on drop-out prevention because we can't "leave them behind" and in the process we leave everyone behind. It's tragic, really.
I just love the concept of "No child left behind" but if your test scores aren't up to par we will cut your funding--to make sure everybody is left behind at the same place. Now that makes sense!

I taught at a private school for awhile and while it was considerably better than the public school, the middle schoolers were still a pain in the ass. Get out of teaching that age group....teach at a community college or something where the people who are there want to be there. If you can't naturally wangle the children to do what they need to do, you are expending too much of your energy and should probably do something different to save your sanity.

[Eileen]

I just love the concept of "No child left behind" but if your test scores aren't up to par we will cut your funding--to make sure everybody is left behind at the same place. Now that makes sense!


If you can't naturally wangle the children to do what they need to do, you are expending too much of your energy and should probably do something different to save your sanity.


Gah. NCLB sucks. I'm at a low funded, low performing school. It's better than it was. Evidently it was thisclose to being taken over by government drones and "fixed." Then the test scores went up and things were better.




Anyway, so today, I had a really good day. My bad class (fourth period) was astoundingly good--talkative, but totally manageable, and the bad kids weren't even absent. They were just... good. It was a nice day, very different than about three Mondays ago when I nearly had a riot on my hands and left school with a horrible stabbing headache that didn't leave me for a full six days.


And these are the days that make teachers keep teaching. I've taught kids who are easy to teach--they're great, but they don't need me so much as these kids who don't believe that they can learn ... it is a whole lot harder, and a whole lot more discouraging... but there are days when it's great. I have more bad days than good ones, but that is slowly petering out...

[songbird36]

Hey that's great Eileen - that's fantastic in fact (hey..do I sound like an INFJ now)!

I had a really strong intuition that things would begin to get easier for you. If you haven't already seen it, you need (and I say *need* deliberately here) to go and see a wonderful movie called "Les Choristes". It's a French film with subtitles about a music teacher in a boys' reform school in the 1940s.

You will be totally inspired by that movie. I was. I managed to pick up a few French words in it too which I was equally pleased about!

[relaxo]

...
I can appreciate aversion to authority, but I cannot abide RUDENESS! If a kid politely asked what the purpose of an assignment was and expressed his skepticism about its value, I really do think that I could handle that, but that is simply not what I face every day! I face swearing and talking back and this one kid who has this habit of talking to people who are passing in the hallway and declaring my class BORING to them (he's alseep when I do my more engaging activities, often, or doesn't participate in the particularly engaging activities I assign even if he's awake). I am no prude, but it shocks me what comes out of these kids' mouths, and how little regard they have for how it may affect anyone else.

And I try to teach them critical thinking, but so many of them are either unwilling to learn (they don't see the point, and won't listen to reason about it) or actually seem like they don't have any of the tools they need to even BEGIN thinking critically. I believe they can learn (as our ILT coach says "All children can learn") but I doubt that many of them will (contrary to the rest of her phrase, "All children WILL learn"). It's hard to maintain any kind of optimism for the future when you teach a bunch of kids who are clearly going to end up either dead or in jail by 25.

... They've never been expected to achieve by their parents, many teachers, or peers... so my expectations seem unreasonable.

And then there are all the problems with the system, which I won't go into. I love public school and I am committed to seeing it to a better end, but it's failing everybody right now.

Oh, and there is a total lack of ability to take any kind of responsibility for ones actions. Is this a teenager thing that they'll grow out of? Possibly. Do I see it in their parents? I do indeed.

Today I hate my job and I don't know if I'll ever be able to love it, and if I don't, I will feel (irrationally) that I have failed myself and those who I am supposed to serve. But how can I serve someone who will not receive the service?
...


What else can we expect from our recent culture? Our culture tells people to disobey any sort of authority, whether that authority is justified or not. Authority is always bad, we are told. What were you expecting, children to realize that some authority is justified? It's even taught by teachers in school. Children have no respect for their parent's authority either, because it is authority. It has little to do with any sort of logic.

Cirtical thinking? Our culture now teachs the message that to agree with the majority is to be an idiot. Any old thought will do, as long as it isn't held by the majority, especially adults.

Our culture now teaches that our very culture is bad. Other cultures are superior to ours we are told. Why would children who are taught this want to participate in our society?

They are taught pride is bad. Selfishness is bad. Why should a child try to achieve anything then? They are told it is bad.

The concept of equality is hammered into our recent culture. Why would a gifted child try to be more sucessful then their peers?
I was embarrassed in school because of my high grades. It wasn't fair, other kids weren't as smart. Eventually I stopped doing as much to lower my grades so I would be equal.

Feelings are often taught to be more important then thinking. Some thinking is "not nice". Have some feelings, your logic is hurting other people's feelings.

Many schools now do not fail children. Everyone passes. It's not nice to hold a child back, it just hurts them, and punishment is bad. Sometimes particiaption is more important than work. Intentions more important than results. This is our culture. Why would a child produce results when they are guaranteed the prize in the end?

We are taught it is not nice to single out exceptional students. Our culture even teaches that exceptional people are not that great anyway, the common ordinary person is just as good, if not better. Things such as success are ridiculed. Conspiracies and alterior motives are always behind success apparently.

The final insult is the blame game. The individual can't help what they do. It's because of society, their parents, their teachers, TV, government, businesses, rock music, genetics, etc...
All of these have an influence on a young mind, and an old one. Individual responsibility is rarely taught by our society.
In the end the individual makes choices or they do not (which is a choice itself). You are responsible for your choices and must suffer the consequences or rewards of your choices or you will never ever learn.

Given all of the current cultural biases against logic, authority, success and responsiblity, what can we reasonably expect from children?

If you take a puppy and smack it for peeing on the carpet it will eventually stop. It is not nice to smack puppies. There is a choice however. Smack the puppy, or live with piss covered carpet. You can try to find a different solution, but if you do not smack it while you are trying to find a nicer solution, it is going to piss on your carpet. By the time it is old, if you never found a solution, you are going to have to put it too sleep if you do not want piss covered carpets any more.

Human beings are much more than puppies. Human beings can understand concepts of logic, success and responsibility. You can either enforce those ideals, or enforce the idea that they are not important.

p.s. if you hate your job, get out of it. You do not need to sacrifice your happiness for the sake of anyone or any ideal. It is your life, every second of it. Contrary to our current culture, your life belongs to you and no one else. make yourself happy first.

[Dman]

The concept of equality is hammered into our recent culture. Why would a gifted child try to be more sucessful then their peers?
I was embarrassed in school because of my high grades. It wasn't fair, other kids weren't as smart. Eventually I stopped doing as much to lower my grades so I would be equal.

Yes. I was in this same boat; upon entering junior high, I quickly realized that it was “bad” to be smart, i.e. a nerd. Only if your social status was very high in other regards, such as you were the football quarterback, was it ok to be intelligent. Even then you had to be socially careful. Thus, the rest of us either accepted our status as nerds and were subject to constant torment, or like you and I, we “dumbed” ourselves down to try to fit in.

However, I think that may be more a product of popular cultural values rather than the concept of equality. We want to fit in because we want to be liked, not equal. Our culture does often reward the eccentrics, the entrepreneurs. But the social pressure at school is to have friends and be cool, or else get picked on. It’s a pecking order. Unfortunately in this order intelligence is not valued as much as pop music stars and movie stars and sports figures. Thus people with these traits are idolized and cool, not the quiet smart guys and gals.

[songbird36]

I used to get "brainbox" a lot at the low decile primary chool I went to.

It's an epithet that somehow has stuck in my brain over the years..

[relaxo]

Unfortunately in this order intelligence is not valued as much as pop music stars and movie stars and sports figures. Thus people with these traits are idolized and cool, not the quiet smart guys and gals.

but this is an example of what I am talking about.
Pop music stars and movie stars and sports figures should be idolized for their achievements, along side great intellects and successful business people, like Bill Gates and Martha Stewart.

Instead large portions of society put down one group or the other. the scorn against business people is well accepted as normal now.
"Intellectuals" putting down sports figures and movie stars is well accepted.

If you're not intelligent in school, who can you look up to? If you are intelligent, who can you look up to?

With success such as above comes wealth. The contempt against wealth is well accepted in society, always has been.
So it is bad to be wealthy, but to be wealthy one has to be successful at something.
What is a kid to do with such confusing messages? Wealth is bad. Success creates wealth. What's the point in achieving anything?


I forgot to mention guilt that society uses as well. How dare you live comfortable when there are starving people somewhere in the world?
To show solidarity, some people starve themseleves for 24 hours once a year to releave their guilt. Others blindly give money away.
To a child, pumped full of guilt, why should they get an education when children elsewhere do not? How many kids would drop out of school for the chance to help other children somewhere else in the world? most would, ignoring the fact that they will grow up uneducated for the sake of someone else.

[Eileen]

p.s. if you hate your job, get out of it. You do not need to sacrifice your happiness for the sake of anyone or any ideal. It is your life, every second of it. Contrary to our current culture, your life belongs to you and no one else. make yourself happy first.


I don't really hate my job. I was just emoting. Emote, emote, emote.


Today we had a knife incident. This apparently mentally unbalanced chick cut another kid. We heard her coming down the hall cussing, but my two worst kids who would have jumped up and left the room weren't there, so we all just kind of looked at each other incredulously until a kid suggested that I shut the door. I was happy (and already on my way to) oblige. Apparantly lots of crap went down on the hall today while I had the door shut. Amazing. I was pleased with my kids for not being idiots. I feel sorry for my fellow English teacher in whose class the girl got out her knife. However, better him than me. He used to work at an alternative school, so he knows how to deal with shit like that. I do not.

[INTerloPer]

Although you may often feel like you're beating your head against a brick wall while trying ot get through to your class, know that you ARE making a difference. I was always able to recognize and appreciate teachers who cared about thier jobs (as opposed to those who did it for - what? the status? certainly not the money...), but never could I express to them how meaningful was their lack of apathy. Keep in mind that the students who are most likely to be positively affected by you are also the least likely to let you know what a great job you're doing.