The nature of poetry

[Arioch]

This is more a question then anything else

What is poetry?

Describe poetry to someone who has never heard it before.

Does it have rules?

What is it's nature?

[songbird36]

Good question.

I will have lots to say when I get some time..

[Serotonin]

The original conception of poetry was one which contained iambic meter and rhyme. Throughout centuries, these properties were deemed to be to restrictive to many poets, and now many poems are free flowing and amorphous.
My definition would of a poem would be:
A form of literature which is short, sparse, and pithy and can be interpreted in both a literal and metaphorical sense.

I guess the pithy part can be jettisoned for "Rime of the Ancient Mariner".

[cjs55]

Poetry becomes meaning/art by invalidating earlier conceptions of word meanings and replacing them with new ones, either by linear association or rhythmic energy.

[Sackanaka]

Poetry is a means of fully manipulating the linguistic aspect of perception and letting it leak into multiple facets of the conscious and unconscious mind. It follows the rules similar to that of a potential river forming from a flood of various causes and form, which in turn can take a multitude of paths yet must remain cohesive enough to cut its own course and not get lost in the muddle. Poetry's nature is that which combines the inner emotions often difficult to express via conventional discourse and utilizes the full spectrum of the characteristics of a language with a precise focus and delivers an accurate representation of the intended product: a poem.

[snarled]

"Poetry is what gets lost in translation." - Robert Frost

[CreativeChaos]

I have a book called "Writing the Natural Way", by Gabriele Rico, Ph.D., that I just love and adore. It is my "textbook" for writing, Period. But a lot of the writing is poetic, rather than prose. I have a very loose interpretation of what poetry is. When Zedo repremanded one of my poems as lacking in meter, I was like "what meter?" It's the subtle meanings and plays on words that I like. I have just discovered the Spontaneous Poetry thread and am having lots of fun on it.

[Eileen]

The original conception of poetry was one which contained iambic meter and rhyme. Throughout centuries, these properties were deemed to be to restrictive to many poets, and now many poems are free flowing and amorphous.
My definition would of a poem would be:
A form of literature which is short, sparse, and pithy and can be interpreted in both a literal and metaphorical sense.

I guess the pithy part can be jettisoned for "Rime of the Ancient Mariner".


I was going to say... short? sparse? pithy? The Odyssey?

[Eileen]

Ahem. *puts on English teacher pants*


Poetry is a type of compressed and rhythmic language that uses imagery and figures of speech in order to appeal to emotions and imaginations.


Poetry is a puzzle; that's what I love about it. You have to read a poem more than once to appreciate it, and you have to take your time and think about all the different ways a word can be interpreted. :) *swoon* I love poetry.


It had rules, once, but the Modernists broke them.

[Serotonin]

I was going to say... short? sparse? pithy? The Odyssey?

A worthy exception. Your "compressed" descriptor was more along the lines of the word I was looking for.

[CreativeChaos]

I don't know. But I'm beginning to see a type and "what is poetry" correlation. (of course, I see type everywhere).

Since I am INFP, I don't have structure or rules (P) and I like the "meaning" of a poetry rather than the "intelligence" in terms of compressed words of a poem. If the poem has multiple meanings, or has conveyed meaning in a way that is beautiful and unique, then I LIKES.:D

[CoHo]

To be honest, I'm pretty clueless when it comes to poetry.

I can critique paintings, short stories, novels, movies, songs and sculptures but I HATE critiquing poetry.

There is something overly emotional about the subject that makes it rather difficult to enjoy. That and almost everyone thinks they are a poet and it is very difficult to find something that I can truly relate to (no my love isn't a cup of nails, and yeah, it isn't a bowl of egg salad either).

With that said, I do consider music lyrics very poetic and they can be moving:



To much walkin' shoes worn thin
too much trippin' and my soul's worn thin
time to catch a ride
it leaves today, her name is what it means
to much walkin', shoe's worn thin


I think for me I need to hear the words in context, like the lyrics above. Maybe it is because I’m not good at poetic reading, usually in my brain I don’t pause at the correct points, or I don’t put emphasis on the correct words.

So I rarely enjoy any poetry, but I would enjoy a good Beatnik. But finding a good Beatnik isn’t easy.

[CreativeChaos]

To be honest, I'm pretty clueless when it comes to poetry.

I can critique paintings, short stories, novels, movies, songs and sculptures but I HATE critiquing poetry.

There is something overly emotional about the subject that makes it rather difficult to enjoy. That and almost everyone thinks they are a poet and it is very difficult to find something that I can truly relate to (no my love isn't a cup of nails, and yeah, it isn't a bowl of egg salad either).

With that said, I do consider music lyrics very poetic and they can be moving:



I think for me I need to hear the words in context, like the lyrics above. Maybe it is because I’m not good at poetic reading, usually in my brain I don’t pause at the correct points, or I don’t put emphasis on the correct words.

So I rarely enjoy any poetry, but I would enjoy a good Beatnik. But finding a good Beatnik isn’t easy.

HHmmmm... I would expect SPs and SJs to say what you just did. They would be more in tune with lyrics, because it is more "sensate". Less to ponder on "abstract" meanings. That's curious that your brain doesn't pause at the correct points or puts emphasis on the correct words.

[Ka.avik]

Throughout centuries, these properties were [...] restrictive
I believe japanese haiku is older than your 'throughout centuries' -- and while next to impossible in english, is still poetry.

Haiku poetry can work in english if each "poem" is a stanza of a larger poem.

BTW, when taking english in college, it sticks in my head that haiku was defined as primarily being 6-8-5, but all those stupid beer commercials assume it's always been 5-7-5. Can someone clue me in...? is there really only one form of haiku...one of the attempts at the form in college garnered the response that the writer should choose a different format, since the almost-great poetry was being mangled by the restrictions she'd placed on herself...

[Ka.avik]

To much walkin' shoes worn thin
too much trippin' and my soul's worn thin
time to catch a ride it leaves today,
her name is what it means
to much walkin', shoe's worn thin My logical mind has always gone sproiinngggg when I hear that song. it's a cool song, but how can the content of the variable be initialized to the end-user's interpretation thereof?

How can her name be what means?!?http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/ng_mad.gifhttp://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/ranting.gifhttp://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/mad.gif

[CreativeChaos]

My logical mind has always gone sproiinngggg when I hear that song. it's a cool song, but how can the content of the variable be initialized to the end-user's interpretation thereof?

How can her name be what means?!?http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/ng_mad.gifhttp://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/ranting.gifhttp://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/mad.gif



Quote:
To much walkin' shoes worn thin
too much trippin' and my soul's worn thin
time to catch a ride it leaves today,
her name is what it means
to much walkin', shoe's worn thin

Heh! Silly! I don't know this song, but it's a fun puzzle, a play on words. My guess is that she has a name that means something. Not just a name with no meaning, like Nicole. David means "my beloved" for example. Cindy (my name) is a nickname for Cynthia which is an acient Greek "Goddess of the Moon". That doesn't really MEAN anything. "my beloved" DOES mean something. So to me, it is an implication that she has a MEANINGFUL name and what is implied but not said is that she IS what her name means, or she is like what her name means. I'm glad you pointed that out. It's NEAT! :)

[Philo]

It had rules, once, but the Modernists broke them.

Not to argue with an English teacher, but I'm not so sure I agree with this. Wasn't Frost & Elliot modernist (it's been a while)? Ginsberg? Modern poetry seems to have a rythm and structure to their work, though it may be more subtle than the past.

[Philo]

Haiku poetry can work in english if each "poem" is a stanza of a larger poem.

Well, Haiku is actually derived from the first three lines of the Tanka style, which has the form 5-7-5-7-7, so in a way you're right. However, if you mean that haiku can't stand on it's own (i.e. it needs other stanzas), I have to disagree. A well crafted haiku, which adheres to the "rules", is a thing of beauty.



BTW, when taking english in college, it sticks in my head that haiku was defined as primarily being 6-8-5, but all those stupid beer commercials assume it's always been 5-7-5. Can someone clue me in...? is there really only one form of haiku...one of the attempts at the form in college garnered the response that the writer should choose a different format, since the almost-great poetry was being mangled by the restrictions she'd placed on herself...

The "counting syllables" form is the traditional Japanese definition, IIRC, but Japanese syllables don't translate to English. Most modern haiku poets I know don't use it, or do so rarely, and there are several "definitions" around now. One is that the lines of poem should be "short-long-short". I have another definition at home that puts the number of words at 9-13 and the number of syllables under 17. This was actually derived by a haiku poet that spent the time to analyze haiku that was accepted for print by various journals.

There are a few other "rules", such as the use of kigo (season words), but none of the "rules" are really such. Most haiku poets I know treat them more as guidelines.

Oh yeah, in case you haven't guessed, I'm into haiku. :blush:

[Eileen]

Not to argue with an English teacher, but I'm not so sure I agree with this. Wasn't Frost & Elliot modernist (it's been a while)? Ginsberg? Modern poetry seems to have a rythm and structure to their work, though it may be more subtle than the past.

I was just joking, actually; I know I made it sound like the Modernists didn't follow any rules. It depends on the rule you're talking about as to which Mondernist broke it. Sometimes rules are about subject matter. Frost broke some of those rules (though lots of people don't realize that because all they know is "The Road Not Taken" and "Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening"), as did Eliot. Eliot also played a lot with structure. Playing with structure doesn't mean that there IS no structure; it's just different than "traditional." These poets had structure in their work, but it was structure that they developed, not what was just prescribed. OR--like Yeats in "Leda and the Swan," they worked within the confines of the sonnet structure but did funky stuff with it (slightly altering meter sometimes). I think Claude McKay (maybe? I can't remember for sure right this second) also played with the sonnet form.

Modernists, who all knew the rules and could write in the traditional forms, started to play with them in ways that were so significant that I think poetry hasn't been the same since. I think there are probably still rules, but to some extent, I think people are mostly making up their own rules of poetry these days.


[edited for a terrible mistake! :)]

[CreativeChaos]

:sick:
I was just joking, actually; I know I made it sound like the Modernists didn't follow any rules. It depends on the rule you're talking about as to which Mondernist broke it. Sometimes rules are about subject matter. Frost broke some of those rules (though lots of people don't realize that because all they know is "The Road Less Travelled" and "Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening"), as did Eliot. Eliot also played a lot with structure. Playing with structure doesn't mean that there IS no structure; it's just different than "traditional." These poets had structure in their work, but it was structure that they developed, not what was just prescribed. OR--like Yeats in "Leda and the Swan," they worked within the confines of the sonnet structure but did funky stuff with it (slightly altering meter sometimes). I think Claude McKay (maybe? I can't remember for sure right this second) also played with the sonnet form.

Modernists, who all knew the rules and could write in the traditional forms, started to play with them in ways that were so significant that I think poetry hasn't been the same since. I think there are probably still rules, but to some extent, I think people are mostly making up their own rules of poetry these days.

Geeze! What rules? I HATE rules! ESPECIALLY when it comes to poetry. HOw can you stick RULES to a creative process? Yuck!!! :sick:

Haven't you guys seen "Dead Poet's Society"? THAT's poetry.

[Eileen]

:sick:

Geeze! What rules? I HATE rules! ESPECIALLY when it comes to poetry. HOw can you stick RULES to a creative process? Yuck!!! :sick:

Haven't you guys seen "Dead Poet's Society"? THAT's poetry.



:rolleyes:

Yes, yes, rules are bad, that's why the Modernists were the way they were. Rebels! Libertines!


I actually don't think rules are bad, and I think that the really brilliant poets have been the ones who know all the rules and which ones to break for emphasis or effect. It also takes a hell of a lot more skill to write a good sonnet, sestina, pantoum, or whatever than it does to write a bunch of stream of conscious long winded stuff. I value a free verse and everything, particularly if the language is clever, but I'm still more impressed with "Leda and the Swan" (follows sonnet form and brilliantly breaks rules for emphasis and metaphor) than I am with anything Walt Whitman ever wrote (though I can enjoy Whitman too--especially "When I Heard the Learn'd Astronomer"--lol, not a poem for INTPs!).

[Philo]

:sick:

Geeze! What rules? I HATE rules! ESPECIALLY when it comes to poetry. HOw can you stick RULES to a creative process? Yuck!!! :sick:


Would you prefer the term "guidelines"? :D

I don't see the "rules" as a hinderance. In fact, in the best poetry you never really see the adherence; it's a very subtle thing. In terms of writing, the "rules" can actually drive the creative process, IMO. The trick is to figure out how to write outside the box while staying within it. :blink:

[Ka.avik]

Oh yeah, in case you haven't guessed, I'm into haiku. :blush: never would have guessed Philo
you are a fount of haiku knowledge
thank you for your words


What is poetry? art is useless, needed
no neccess'ty: natural'ty.
poetry is art.

and for clarification, I'm pulling that from a comic-book on what are comics
wherein the author explains his definition of art: anything that you choose
to do, that has nothing to do with survival, or survival-like behavior
(such as grooming for success, which is only about surviving better), is art.
The furniture you choose, which table has your knicknacks, the way you
tap your hands on the steering wheel. It's all art.

To use the full sentances of essay-form, to which I'm more accustomed,
I'll begin by explaining that art is a useless activity that you simply must
do. You gain nothing, ostensibly, by performing your acts of art, but it seems
natural, nonetheless to create/perform your works of art.

what is poety? poetry is art -- with words ;-)

[Ka.avik]

Heh! Silly! I don't know this song, but it's a fun puzzle, a play on words. My guess is that she has a name that means something. Techically CC, I think what you're saying is that her name means what her name is. What STP says is just the reverse: that her name is what her name means.

But I can agree that you have chosen a viable end-point. Another might be that, in grand poetic fashion, they've chosen to use half-sentances that can be finished through careful examination of the rest of the song. To wit:
Her name is what it means {...to be free...} or {to be in love}
... or something. However, and since I can't by any means make out all the words I'm just guessing, I don't believe that it works out that way; I only say this because it would be, y'know, poetic.

But, there are so many other ways of proposing what you suggest without
leaving the observer in such a quandy as to the meaning...such as, her name depicts her or her name defines her, or she is what her name means, which could easily be shortened to she is her name. If you wanted to be poetically backwords, I'd even allow her name means her (or, her name means who she is).

But, insomuch as poetry is meant to convey a meaning (as with any speech it is assumed thusly, salesman and polititians aside), Stone Temple Pilots have failed in this wise:
I don't have a clue what picture they're trying to draw with theses words.

name what means her is it
name what her means is it
is name her what means it
what name is it her means
name means is it her what
what means is it her name (whee! that was fun)