MY INTP needs some kicking in the teeth!

[sharadtriyama]

1. He won't make plans
2. He won't make plans to make plans
3. He won't execute the plans he makes
4. He won't explain what he is thinking
5. He is evasive and passive aggressive
6. He is random

:mad:

He is gonna regret soon!

[sharadtriyama]

Can anybody here explain this kind of behaviour and how the hell normal human beings are expected to coexist with such bovine immobile vegetation?

[rainfall]

*yawn*

[sharadtriyama]

Whoa! 9 people have viewed this but not one has responded..what a useful lot! :theclap: :theclap:

[sharadtriyama]

*yawn*

You think I did not anticipate that response? Bwahaha!

[rainfall]

*scratches ass*

Troll.

[sharadtriyama]

*scratches ass*

*Offers soap to wash up..* Also wash your towel which has not been washed in a century! You can also bathe sometimes! :)

[Night]

1. He won't make plans
2. He won't make plans to make plans
3. He won't execute the plans he makes
4. He won't explain what he is thinking
5. He is evasive and passive aggressive
6. He is random

:mad:

He is gonna regret soon!

He sounds resistant to being dominated.

Chances are, his autonomy is outweighing his need to justify his behavior to you. Believe me, if he is an NT, he has plans.

As an xNTJ, I can identify with some of your apparent frustration. Relax a bit. Conveying an openness to his rationale could elicit a reciprocal response.

Vary your communication style. Modify your "ideal" so that it becomes a passive aspect of your plan - changing context can counter his need to oppose your hand. Wax passive with aggressive so as to understand the variant strategies for human thought.

Domination should be subtle when dealing with the intelligent.

[sharadtriyama]

*scratches ass*

Troll.

Troll responder!

[rainfall]

*Offers soap to wash up..* Also wash your towel which has not been washed in a century! You can also bathe sometimes! :)

Dear Hustler, I sincerely support your proposition to ban this entj user named "sharadtriyama". I am looking forward to the thread you're going to make about her.


1. He won't make plans
2. He won't make plans to make plans
3. He won't execute the plans he makes
4. He won't explain what he is thinking
5. He is evasive and passive aggressive
6. He is random

:mad:

He is gonna regret soon!
LOL WHAT A LOSER! DUMP HIS LAZY ASS!


Whoa! 9 people have viewed this but not one has responded..what a useful lot! :theclap: :theclap:

LOL I KNOW FUCKING LOSERS RIGHT?

[sharadtriyama]

He sounds resistant to being dominated.

Chances are, his autonomy is outweighing his need to justify his behavior to you. Believe me, if he is an NT, he has plans.

As an xNTJ, I can identify with some of your apparent frustration. Relax a bit. Conveying an openness to his rationale could elicit a reciprocal response.

Vary your communcation style. Modify your "ideal" so that it becomes a passive aspect of your plan - changing context can counter his need to oppose your hand. Wax passive with aggressive so as to understand the variant strategies for human thought.

Domination should be subtle when dealing with the intelligent.

In other words, I should be manipulative and diplomatic and make it seem like I don't really care for stuff which in reality I might be dying for... yeah this works with him at times. Sometimes it seems like he is deliberately passive to get me flared up... but perhaps he is not even thinking so much about how I feel!

Pah! All these mind games make my mind boggle! Why can't people just do what is required and get along?!

[sharadtriyama]

Dear Hustler, I sincerely support your proposition to ban this entj user named "sharadtriyama". I am looking forward to the thread you're going to make about her.


Dear rainfall and hustler.. I ask you to go get a life outside of internet forums! :happpy:

[rainfall]

Dear rainfall and hustler.. I ask you to go get a life outside of internet forums! :happpy:

I am sorry. That is impossible. That would require making plans. I don't make plans.

[Night]

but perhaps he is not even thinking so much about how I feel!

Do not assume that his concern for you overshadows his concern for himself.

[Night]

In other words, I should be manipulative and diplomatic and make it seem like I don't really care for stuff which in reality I might be dying for

If you want to "win", you'll revise your systems as necessary.

Do not remain stagnant in how you perceive a situation - especially when the situation isn't to your liking.

[sharadtriyama]

Do not assume that his concern for you overshadows his concern for himself.

I'm assuming that his concern for himself is overshadowing his concern for me. Then, of course, I know it is not always like that... he is just made that way.. There is not much that can be done about him except get exasperated!


If you want to "win", you'll revise your systems as necessary.

Do not remain stagnant in how you perceive a situation - especially when the situation isn't to your liking.

I'm aggressive, direct and straightforward. I'm not pushy and I know that. I'm extra-careful with not being pushy because I know he might feel suffocated by it. He either completely shuts me out or does what I call 'stonewalling'. You cannot elicit any response from him thereafter. I sometimes wonder why I hang on.. perhaps it is for the nicer things about him.. erm.. which I'm not able to recollect just now! :rolleyes:


I am sorry. That is impossible. That would require making plans. I don't make plans.

Er.. how about imagining the future in an optimistic manner and imagining the events that led up there.. in that process you might see what you're supposed to be doing!

[rainfall]

Er.. how about imagining the future in an optimistic manner and imagining the events that led up there.. in that process you might see what you're supposed to be doing!

No.

[Darklord]

Break up. He'd be happier, and you might, too.

...Or, you could try posting some stuff to make it seem you do not hate your boyfriend, this forum in general, and every single member on it in particular. The information required to actually get an overview of the situation, for instance...


[Imagines the future in an optimistic manner, in the process realizing that the only thing required to get there is for humanity to change its entire nature. Piece of cake.]



Another garbage post for another garbage thread.

[MongolianFireOil]

Based on your first post, you must be one hell of a looker for him to stick around as long as he has.

I wish fortunato would reply to this, he can put into words what others can't in a non-offensive way.

ok, your authoratative. intp's are rebellious and push away people like that much in the way you've described him

Your condescending. This is fine except you don't back anything up with facts. Constructive critisism is awesome, how else do you grow? but what you do just sucks.

Like I said, you must be one hell of a looker.

[sharadtriyama]

...Or, you could try posting some stuff to make it seem you do not hate your boyfriend, this forum in general, and every single member on it in particular. The information required to actually get an overview of the situation, for instance...


I'm not sure I got that! :huh:

[sharadtriyama]

Based on your first post, you must be one hell of a looker for him to stick around as long as he has.



Insufficient data to judge me by. I'm surprised you can say such things with so much vehemence and conviction without even going through the other posts. Or am I?

[charred_heart]

To prove that this is not just another made-up member by MacGuffin, tell us what you were doing yesterday.

[sharadtriyama]

To prove that this is not just another made-up member by MacGuffin, tell us what you were doing yesterday.

huh? :huh:

[ThirtyFour]

1. He won't make plans
2. He won't make plans to make plans
3. He won't execute the plans he makes
4. He won't explain what he is thinking
5. He is evasive and passive aggressive
6. He is random

:mad:

He is gonna regret soon!

What I do when this happens between my bf and myself is just give up for awhile. I make my own plans and do my own thing and eventually he realizes the only way he'll get to spend time with me is if he makes plans with me because I'm too busy to just sit around waiting for him to come over.

[Hexchild]

Unlike rainfall, I'll assume this is not a troll thread. Though I have to admit it is tempting to draw that conclusion.

I hope the following gives you a bit of insight into the INTP mind. Do keep in mind though, that the only INTP I truly know is myself. What I've stated here may be untrue for other INTPs, but to keep the text free from clutter I won't add qualifiers to every sentence.



1. He won't make plans
2. He won't make plans to make plans
3. He won't execute the plans he makes
4. He won't explain what he is thinking
5. He is evasive and passive aggressive
6. He is random

Sounds like a typical INTP, except point 4, for which I can think of a few possibilities:

1) He's been pushed pretty far toward the edge already, and sees no point in trying to explain things to someone who won't listen.

2) He actually does try to explain and you dismiss his explanations as nonsense, therefore not acknowledging them as the explanations you seek.

3) You demand that he give you answers before he knows them himself.



Can anybody here explain this kind of behaviour and how the hell normal human beings are expected to coexist with such bovine immobile vegetation?

In my experience, normal human beings tend to coexist just fine with INTPs.



In other words, I should be manipulative and diplomatic and make it seem like I don't really care for stuff which in reality I might be dying for... yeah this works with him at times. Sometimes it seems like he is deliberately passive to get me flared up... but perhaps he is not even thinking so much about how I feel!

INTPs tend to be independent, original thinkers. Being manipulative will most likely backfire on you in the end. Substantially. Sooner or later he'll realize you've been doing so. In fact we tend to be so repulsed by being manipulated that even if you aren't doing so and he suspects you are, it'll still backfire on you. :thumbdow:

By the way, your "this works with him" comment gives me the impression that you are already prone to being manipulative. If you are, then I sincerely hope this relationship you have crashes and burns.

Diplomatic, on the other hand, is definitely the thing to be. As well as honest. If you want to make an INTP do something, forget it. You can suggest it, and if he considers it a good idea, he might make a decision to follow your suggestion. Or he might decide to take a completely different route, because he considers it a better one in some way. Or he might conclude that it isn't worth it for whatever reason. This freedom of choice is extremely important, and the distinction between "tell" and "ask" is very significant. Simply put, it's a matter of respect.

As for being passive, that's the way he is. Don't try to change that, because if you were to succeed in that, it's very likely he'd end up being chronically miserable (even more than is natural for the average INTP, that is).

That said, we're great at coming up with new ideas, alternatives, possibilities etc. but we often don't feel motivated to implement them, so as Ps we sometimes do need a gentle push to get started with things. And I do mean gentle. Running us over like a bulldozer is not a good idea.



I'm aggressive, direct and straightforward.

Direct and straightforward is good. Most people aren't and it drives us crazy sometimes. Aggressive can be good too if wisely channeled. Otherwise it's destructive, plain and simple.



I'm not pushy and I know that. I'm extra-careful with not being pushy because I know he might feel suffocated by it. He either completely shuts me out or does what I call 'stonewalling'. You cannot elicit any response from him thereafter.

Considering what you've said so far, it seems unlikely that you aren't pushy, whether you believe it or not. More likely you're just less pushy than you normally would be. It's possible you might have managed to go below his tolerance threshold, though.

You should be aware that when we shut someone out like that, it's our last defense against being too stressed out to function properly. That doesn't mean that your pushiness is the sole reason for it. Other stress factors probably weigh in as well.



Er.. how about imagining the future in an optimistic manner and imagining the events that led up there.. in that process you might see what you're supposed to be doing!


Pah! All these mind games make my mind boggle! Why can't people just do what is required and get along?!

Highlighted what is probably his main issue with you. I wouldn't be surprised if you're driving him crazy with all these opinions on how things should be.


It doesn't seem likely he likes mind games any more than you do (although I don't know him, so I can't be sure). And the way you seem to try to get him to do things the way you want him to probably looks like mind games to him.

[sharadtriyama]

What I do when this happens between my bf and myself is just give up for awhile. I make my own plans and do my own thing and eventually he realizes the only way he'll get to spend time with me is if he makes plans with me because I'm too busy to just sit around waiting for him to come over.

yeah i do that too but sooner or later I begin to miss him whereas he never misses me! :unsure:

[cafe]

In other words, I should be manipulative and diplomatic and make it seem like I don't really care for stuff which in reality I might be dying for... yeah this works with him at times. Sometimes it seems like he is deliberately passive to get me flared up... but perhaps he is not even thinking so much about how I feel!

Pah! All these mind games make my mind boggle! Why can't people just do what is required and get along?!
Maybe he is overwhelmed by all that is required of him and has shut down. He's probably feeling pressured and afraid and maybe a little intimidated by you.

If what you are doing is not working, why not try something else? It's kind of a no brainer, right?

My advice: back off.

If you are not already married, do not marry this guy even if you have to get some people upset with you. You can find someone more suitable for you than he is. Someone ambitious and decisive and motivated. It may be a stink now, but down the road, everybody will see how right you were.

If you are already married and it is not acceptable to dissolve the marriage, be thankful that you have a man that will never try to dominate you. Make plans for yourself independently unless they directly effect your husband. He doesn't care if you change jobs, get another degree, etc as long as it doesn't effect him (cross-country move, less money, etc). He just wants you to be happy so you will STFU.

Plans that involve both of you, break down the decision to three options you would find acceptable. Present these options to him at a relaxed time and in a calm, non emotional, impassive way. Tell him your opinions on the pros and cons of each choice. Explain to him that you realize those are not all of the options and that if he has more options he'd like to discuss you are interested in what he has to say (then if he does, be respectful to his ideas even if they seem silly.) Give him a deadline (allow some time for him to miss it without putting you in a bad situation). Allow him to email you his decision or discuss the situation via email if it makes him more comfortable.

If he does not give you a decision within a few days after the deadline tell him that you are making the decision and which option you are choosing. Let him know that since you have not heard anything back, that you are assuming that all the options you suggested are acceptable to him and that you will go ahead unless he voices an objection either spoken or written by a certain date.

Some INTPs are late bloomers and it can take awhile for them to figure out what they want to do and go for it. I was able to just drift with my husband until that happened, but I'm unusually non-materialistic and I'm not particularly ambitious, so it wasn't a huge deal. I considered it an investment in the long term success and happiness of my marriage. It's not the kind of thing every woman can do, so if you can, just try the other stuff.

If you cannot find a way to back off and let him be somewhat autonomous and get him on your team, he will hate you and may take perverse pleasure in sabotaging you. You do not want that.

He's probably never going to be a dominant, take charge kind of guy. It takes a little getting used to, but if you can adjust yourself to it, it's pretty darn wonderful to have a laid-back, low-maintenance man to come home to.

[sharadtriyama]

Sounds like a typical INTP, except point 4, for which I can think of a few possibilities:

3) You demand that he give you answers before he knows them himself.
Yeah I do this or else he will never start thinking about the answer!


In my experience, normal human beings tend to coexist just fine with INTPs.
Are you sure? :mellow:


INTPs tend to be independent, original thinkers. Being manipulative will most likely backfire on you in the end. Substantially. Sooner or later he'll realize you've been doing so. In fact we tend to be so repulsed by being manipulated that even if you aren't doing so and he suspects you are, it'll still backfire on you.
Yeah if you react to straightforward questions and requests one need not get into all that trouble of manipulation! It is not like I WANT to do it!!


By the way, your "this works with him" comment gives me the impression that you are already prone to being manipulative. If you are, then I sincerely hope this relationship you have crashes and burns.

It is not fun to be manipulating in order to get what you want... if you get it without manipulation life would be so much easier right? I've been pushed to manipulate at times.


Diplomatic, on the other hand, is definitely the thing to be. As well as honest. If you want to make an INTP do something, forget it. You can suggest it, and if he considers it a good idea, he might make a decision to follow your suggestion. Or he might decide to take a completely different route, because he considers it a better one in some way. Or he might conclude that it isn't worth it for whatever reason. This freedom of choice is extremely important, and the distinction between "tell" and "ask" is very significant. Simply put, it's a matter of respect.
Yeah right! And what happens to what I might consider important or what I might think is better or what I might think is worth it? Goes down the drain eh? Because? The INTP is god. Is that right? As long as he does not explain why he has accepted or ditched an idea, how can I be convinced enough to agree with him?


That said, we're great at coming up with new ideas, alternatives, possibilities etc. but we often don't feel motivated to implement them, so as Ps we sometimes do need a gentle push to get started with things. And I do mean gentle. Running us over like a bulldozer is not a good idea.
Ok! I'll keep that in mind.


You should be aware that when we shut someone out like that, it's our last defense against being too stressed out to function properly. That doesn't mean that your pushiness is the sole reason for it. Other stress factors probably weigh in as well.
Yeah he has other stress factors. That's true.


And the way you seem to try to get him to do things the way you want him to probably looks like mind games to him.
Hmm.. I'll think about that ..but like I said earlier if I can get what I want at the first request (or an explanation why it is not possible) I'd be happier than having to play mind games to get a mere "yes" or "no"!

[Nocapszy]

1. He won't make plans
2. He won't make plans to make plans
3. He won't execute the plans he makes
4. He won't explain what he is thinking
5. He is evasive and passive aggressive
6. He is random

:mad:

He is gonna regret soon!

What arrogance. You dwarf even my own egotism with "He is gonna regret soon"

Are you sure he is?

[Nocapszy]

Here's a good idea, go and ACTUALLY kick him in the teeth. That might get him going. Maybe he's like a windup toy. Stick a key in his back and twist. That'll get him going....

[digesthisickness]

What arrogance. You dwarf even my own egotism with "He is gonna regret soon"

Are you sure he is?

exactly what i was thinking. from how she's describing his actions, it sounds like if another girl were to show some interest in him at this point, he'd be open to the possibility. and, judging by every post she's made, i wouldn't blame him.

[sharadtriyama]

exactly what i was thinking. from how she's describing his actions, it sounds like if another girl were to show some interest in him at this point, he'd be open to the possibility. and, judging by every post she's made, i wouldn't blame him.
I'd pity the poor girl! :rofl:


Here's a good idea, go and ACTUALLY kick him in the teeth. That might get him going. Maybe he's like a windup toy. Stick a key in his back and twist. That'll get him going....

Sounds good to me but it would be difficult because it would be difficult to get him to decide on meeting me so I can kick him!


What arrogance. You dwarf even my own egotism with "He is gonna regret soon"

Are you sure he is?

I mean one would regret the loss of teeth and 30 days at the ortho's won't they? Of course, it is difficult to say in his case... he might wait to see if it is a good idea to start regretting!

[booyalab]

1. He won't make plans so?


2. He won't make plans to make plans so?


3. He won't execute the plans he makes so?

4. He won't explain what he is thinking so?

5. He is evasive and passive aggressiveso?

6. He is randomso?


:mad:
He is gonna regret soon!
when you present him with the list of doom? oh no! Let me guess what his response will be, perhaps passively aggressively evading you by randomly walking out the door with no explanation?

[sharadtriyama]

Maybe he is overwhelmed by all that is required of him and has shut down. He's probably feeling pressured and afraid and maybe a little intimidated by you.
I'm sure he has not started thinking about how he feels!!!!


My advice: back off.

If you are not already married, do not marry this guy even if you have to get some people upset with you. You can find someone more suitable for you than he is. Someone ambitious and decisive and motivated. It may be a stink now, but down the road, everybody will see how right you were.
*Sigh* Despite everything he is phenomenally attractive to me as a person!


If he does not give you a decision within a few days after the deadline tell him that you are making the decision and which option you are choosing. Let him know that since you have not heard anything back, that you are assuming that all the options you suggested are acceptable to him and that you will go ahead unless he voices an objection either spoken or written by a certain date.
He has already slipped 18 deadlines if I'm not wrong! And I surely need him in order to get ahead with the decisions I have made for us and obviously I can get a buffalo to run a sprint than get him to make a decision. Should I quit? :mellow:


He's probably never going to be a dominant, take charge kind of guy. It takes a little getting used to, but if you can adjust yourself to it, it's pretty darn wonderful to have a laid-back, low-maintenance man to come home to.
He is so low-maintenance, I feel under-utilized! :(

[sharadtriyama]

when you present him with the list of doom? oh no! Let me guess what his response will be, perhaps passively aggressively evading you by randomly walking out the door with no explanation?

Wasn't that an easy guess? You guys prolly do that all the time and you're unconcerned about the resulting hair loss in the other parties involved! :stupid:

[charred_heart]

huh? :huh:it's a simple question. What were you doing yesterday?

[sharadtriyama]

it's a simple question. What were you doing yesterday?


Lots of things... :-\

[booyalab]

You still haven't offered any reasons as to why the guy should change his personality for you. Would you change yours for him? Obviously not.

[Xenolith]

This thread is drawing flak from all quarters.

[digesthisickness]

I'd pity the poor girl! :rofl:

that attitude right there (which i'm sure you share with him on a regular basis), is why i wouldn't blame him.

you won't think it's so funny when it happens.

so far, the only motive i've seen for you to really care and want to know about his thoughts, perceptions, etc. is so you can get what you want.

that's not exactly conducive to feeling loved.

[sharadtriyama]

You still haven't offered any reasons as to why the guy should change his personality for you. Would you change yours for him? Obviously not.

I so have. Or else he'd be history!

[sharadtriyama]

that attitude right there (which i'm sure you share with him on a regular basis), is why i wouldn't blame him.

you won't think it's so funny when it happens.

so far, the only motive i've seen for you to really care and want to know about his thoughts, perceptions, etc. is so you can get what you want.

that's not exactly conducive to feeling loved.

It is difficult to know him in the first place... and to know him for interacting and exchanging ideas is near impossible... what do I want? Have you asked that question yet?

I want him to spend more time letting me know him and understand him so we can exchange some ideas and thoughts.. he never lets that happen... so what I want is to know his thoughts and perceptions and I'm not looking to get something by way of knowing his thoughts and perceptions!

[Jennywocky]

I'm aggressive, direct and straightforward. I'm not pushy and I know that. I'm extra-careful with not being pushy because I know he might feel suffocated by it.

Ah gee... I'd hate to see you when you're not pushy.

Honestly, I am already annoyed by the aggression you are showing in your thread and am just chalking this up to typical "EJ" vs "IP" personality conflict.

Basically, if he wants to stay with you, he'll have to learn to accept your aggression and annoyance; and you're going to have to be willing to accept a lot more of what you label "passivity." Maybe you two aren't really suited to each other?

Because seriously, things won't change much. And especially not in the short-term. Maybe he is not assertive enough by nature for you to be in a happy LTR with.

[Hexchild]

Yeah I do this or else he will never start thinking about the answer!

I can't be sure, but you're probably dead wrong about this. If he's anything like me, he's probably got too many options to sift through before he can reach a decent decision. That's what his mind is good at, after all -- to come up with alternatives.

Being that pushy about it pretty much amounts to negative reinforcement (http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/proj/nru/nr.html).




In my experience, normal human beings tend to coexist just fine with INTPs.

Are you sure? :mellow:

Very.

There are exceptions, of course.



Yeah if you react to straightforward questions and requests one need not get into all that trouble of manipulation! It is not like I WANT to do it!!

It is not fun to be manipulating in order to get what you want... if you get it without manipulation life would be so much easier right? I've been pushed to manipulate at times.

From my point of view, that's a pretty shitty attitude because why you manipulate should have no relevance, no exceptions. There are always options. If you are really sure you can't get along with him to some extent without being manipulative, then what the hell are you doing with that guy?

Then again, maybe you just need to learn to consider some things as unobtainable out of principle, even if they could be had with those means.


But it's your life, so I'm not going to go judgemental on you just because you disagree with me on how to live it.



Yeah right! And what happens to what I might consider important or what I might think is better or what I might think is worth it? Goes down the drain eh? Because? The INTP is god. Is that right? As long as he does not explain why he has accepted or ditched an idea, how can I be convinced enough to agree with him?

Your reaction is unnecessarily extreme, since I'm pretty sure few INTPs place themselves very far above or below anyone else on an importance scale.

Did it occur to you that people can and will have different opinions that might actually be equally good and plausible? You don't have to agree on everything.

In those cases where you really do have to agree on things to get anywhere (ie. where you are both involved in the result), you should probably discuss and agree. Sit down with him and address the issues. It will work best if you do it calmly and without any sign of emotional outburst or pressure, or he might be reluctant to. And of course, you need to respect that he might know better in some cases, just as much as you might.


As for his not explaining himself to you when you ask, that's not very good. He does need to do that if he wants the two of you to get along. The only thing you can do about it, though, is try to find out why, and then try to help motivate him to start talking.

And no, gunpoint is not going to cut it.



Yeah he has other stress factors. That's true.

Maybe you should try to help him out with those?



Hmm.. I'll think about that ..but like I said earlier if I can get what I want at the first request (or an explanation why it is not possible) I'd be happier than having to play mind games to get a mere "yes" or "no"!

Perhaps you need to practice on your patience. He may need a lot of time before he feels secure enough in his own opinion to state it. And even then it may depend on things, and he will need to express that in order to feel that he's been fair to you.

[cafe]

I'm sure he has not started thinking about how he feels!!!!


*Sigh* Despite everything he is phenomenally attractive to me as a person!


He has already slipped 18 deadlines if I'm not wrong! And I surely need him in order to get ahead with the decisions I have made for us and obviously I can get a buffalo to run a sprint than get him to make a decision. Should I quit? :mellow:

Well, the trick is, if it's not his idea, he's probably not going to take any action. He won't mind if you do, though.

Even if something is his idea, it doesn't mean he is going to take action. Sometimes he just likes the idea.

I know it's frustrating. You can feel like you are swinging in the breeze all alone and like you are taking all the heat while he just hides away in his head.

If you push him, he digs in his heels and if you don't he just sits there. You end up being the bad guy either way, either with him for being pushy or with the people you have to deal with because he will not.

You have to come up with some form of riding it out with him (which possibly includes years and even decades of him not knowing what he wants to do or working up the nerve to do it) while acting independently on your own to make yourself happy and managing not to feel too resentful about it.

This came as sort of a rude awakening for me. I had to realize that my husband's way of showing support was to give intellectual assent that my idea was not a bad one and to stay out of my way. He does not show support actively the way I would.

I took over ten years for my husband to find something that could financially support us. He still has not decided what he really wants to do. He is very overqualified for the job he has now, but it pays the bills and he does not hate it, so that is good enough for me. Hopefully he will eventually decide on something and he will love it and it will pay okay. I will be very happy for him. In the meantime, I'm happy with him and I'm happy for me.

He is a wonderful, decent, hard-working man and I don't regret marrying him for a minute, but that part was hard. He is more decisive now that he is in his mid-thirties and he has learned the price of letting life make decisions for you, but he really did have to learn it on his own. Nothing I could say or do had any impact.

[digesthisickness]

what do I want? Have you asked that question yet?

try to stay focused on breaking one spirit at a time.

[Nocapszy]

I mean one would regret the loss of teeth and 30 days at the ortho's won't they? Of course, it is difficult to say in his case... he might wait to see if it is a good idea to start regretting!

Well, I don't know if he WOULD regret it because then he'll get a lawyer and sue you for a lot of money.

That's not what you meant. The teeth quip was a joke. I know that, you know what.

You meant he's going to regret it because your'e going to leave him. I'm telling you he probably won't mind.

[sharadtriyama]

Ah gee... I'd hate to see you when you're not pushy.

Honestly, I am already annoyed by the aggression you are showing in your thread and am just chalking this up to typical "EJ" vs "IP" personality conflict.

Basically, if he wants to stay with you, he'll have to learn to accept your aggression and annoyance; and you're going to have to be willing to accept a lot more of what you label "passivity." Maybe you two aren't really suited to each other?

Because seriously, things won't change much. And especially not in the short-term. Maybe he is not assertive enough by nature for you to be in a happy LTR with.
I think the aggressive person keeps reacting, ranting and trying to make amends the way I am and the passive person, well, who knows what the hell he is thinking!? :unsure:

[sharadtriyama]

Well, I don't know if he WOULD regret it because then he'll get a lawyer and sue you for a lot of money.

That's not what you meant. The teeth quip was a joke. I know that, you know what.

You meant he's going to regret it because your'e going to leave him. I'm telling you he probably won't mind.
1. He'll never decide on going to a lawyer until it is time for him to naturally lose his teeth.
2. I know he won't mind. Coz he lets life screw him and does not do anything about it... so losing me would be one more thing he'll passively watch.

[stopharian]

You list yourself as an ENTJ and him as an INTP.

It might help if you shed a little bit of light on how you came to understand these labels.

Is MBTI something that you yourself are familiar with, or is it something that your S.O. explained to you?

How much do you understand about the way that ENTJs operate, and conversely how much do you understand about the ways that INTPs operate?

Give us a little more genuine background and I am willing to take a stab at giving you a bit of honest advice/feedback/

[MacGuffin]

1. He won't make plans
2. He won't make plans to make plans
3. He won't execute the plans he makes
4. He won't explain what he is thinking
5. He is evasive and passive aggressive
6. He is random
I like him already.

[sharadtriyama]

I can't be sure, but you're probably dead wrong about this. If he's anything like me, he's probably got too many options to sift through before he can reach a decent decision. That's what his mind is good at, after all -- to come up with alternatives.

I'd be glad if he came up with anything at all!





what the hell are you doing with that guy?
I too am beginning to wonder! :wub: :unsure:



It will work best if you do it calmly and without any sign of emotional outburst or pressure, or he might be reluctant to.
It is not working... I know all his responses now.
1. We'll see about that!
2. I'm not sure!
3. I don't know.
4. I need time.
5. I have not started thinking about that yet.

Please use the above 5 sentences in different permutations and combinations and as answers to subsequent questions that might follow from these answers.
Example:
1. I need time. How much time? I don't know.
2. I have not started thinking about it yet. When will you start? I'm not sure.
3. We'll see about that. What are you planning to do? I don't know.
4. I don't know. When will you find out? I need time.

Sometimes I think he is a robot who needs some reprogramming for repetitive sentences.

[MacGuffin]

Just break up with him.

[sharadtriyama]

You list yourself as an ENTJ and him as an INTP.

It might help if you shed a little bit of light on how you came to understand these labels.

Is MBTI something that you yourself are familiar with, or is it something that your S.O. explained to you?

How much do you understand about the way that ENTJs operate, and conversely how much do you understand about the ways that INTPs operate?

Give us a little more genuine background and I am willing to take a stab at giving you a bit of honest advice/feedback/

I am familiar with MBTI for the past couple of years. I used to be INFP. I have changed over time.

I don't know what you expect from me. Be clearer. Of course, I'm not planning on giving an MBTI discourse to convince you.

My friend has taken the test and he tested INTP. And I have also observed the same about him.

[sharadtriyama]

Just break up with him.

:mellow:

[Nocapszy]

I'd be glad if he came up with anything at all!





I too am beginning to wonder! :wub: :unsure:



It is not working... I know all his responses now.
1. We'll see about that!
2. I'm not sure!
3. I don't know.
4. I need time.
5. I have not started thinking about that yet.

Please use the above 5 sentences in different permutations and combinations and as answers to subsequent questions that might follow from these answers.
Example:
1. I need time. How much time? I don't know.
2. I have not started thinking about it yet. When will you start? I'm not sure.
3. We'll see about that. What are you planning to do? I don't know.
4. I don't know. When will you find out? I need time.

Sometimes I think he is a robot who needs some reprogramming for repetitive sentences.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it really sounds like he's taking advantage of you. He sounds like a real con artist. How well do you know him? Sounds like he's just going to continue asking for more time until you end it with him.

It reminds me of what Leonardo Da Vinci did. He would sign a contract to a family and live in their home telling them he would do great art for them while he lived there. At times he had no intention of working and would stay and do nothing until they kicked him out. Classic con artistry.

Advise end relationship.

[sharadtriyama]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it really sounds like he's taking advantage of you. He sounds like a real con artist. How well do you know him? Sounds like he's just going to continue asking for more time until you end it with him.

It reminds me of what Leonardo Da Vinci did. He would sign a contract to a family and live in their home telling them he would do great art for them while he lived there. At times he had no intention of working and would stay and do nothing until they kicked him out. Classic con artistry.

Advise end relationship.

Do I see light at the end of the tunnel? That is some practical advice with examples!

Technically, the relationship is as good as dead. It needs to be officially declared as ended. Unless, he soon decides to read this thread (I've asked him to and he said he'll see if he can) and make amends.

[MacGuffin]

Do I see light at the end of the tunnel? That is some practical advice with examples!

Technically, the relationship is as good as dead. It needs to be officially declared as ended. Unless, he soon decides to read this thread (I've asked him to and he said he'll see) and make amends.
DEAR INTP BOYFRIEND,

Run, do not walk, to the nearest exit.

[Hexchild]

It is not working... I know all his responses now.
1. We'll see about that!
2. I'm not sure!
3. I don't know.
4. I need time.
5. I have not started thinking about that yet.

Please use the above 5 sentences in different permutations and combinations and as answers to subsequent questions that might follow from these answers.
Example:
1. I need time. How much time? I don't know.
2. I have not started thinking about it yet. When will you start? I'm not sure.
3. We'll see about that. What are you planning to do? I don't know.
4. I don't know. When will you find out? I need time.

Sometimes I think he is a robot who needs some reprogramming for repetitive sentences.

Sounds like he's been shutting you out for a long time already, and started systemizing it subconsciously.

While he's giving you those bulk answers his mind is probably focused on a revolutionary new power source that nobody is ever going to hear about, or solving the problem with world hunger in a way that would cause huge controversy, or counting the amount of flies in the ceiling and then factorizing the result. Anything that gets his mind off the constant pressure from the world outside his mind, always keeping him down.

[Hexchild]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it really sounds like he's taking advantage of you. He sounds like a real con artist. How well do you know him? Sounds like he's just going to continue asking for more time until you end it with him.

It reminds me of what Leonardo Da Vinci did. He would sign a contract to a family and live in their home telling them he would do great art for them while he lived there. At times he had no intention of working and would stay and do nothing until they kicked him out. Classic con artistry.

Advise end relationship.

...or consciously, I'll grant you that. :rofl:

[sharadtriyama]

DEAR INTP BOYFRIEND,

Run, do not walk, to the nearest exit.

He'll think about that!

[sharadtriyama]

Sounds like he's been shutting you out for a long time already, and started systemizing it subconsciously.

While he's giving you those bulk answers his mind is probably focused on a revolutionary new power source that nobody is ever going to hear about, or solving the problem with world hunger in a way that would cause huge controversy, or counting the amount of flies in the ceiling and then factorizing the result. Anything that gets his mind off the constant pressure from the world outside his mind, always keeping him down.

This is scary! Damn ... how hypocritical! Why can't people tell you in the face that they are not interested instead of wasting your time and theirs?

[Hexchild]

This is scary! Damn ... how hypocritical! Why can't people tell you in the face that they are not interested instead of wasting your time and theirs?

Did he ever try to?

[Lurker]

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah bovine immobile vegetation?

Thanks for the new usertitle! :highfive:

[sharadtriyama]

Did he ever try to?
He sometimes tells me on my face that he won't do something. It is for sure that he has kept me in uncertainty when it comes to our relationship because I'm expecting a solid "NO" from him if he thinks it won't work out, so that I can go ahead and live my life the way I want to. He has not been able to say that and he has also been unable to say "Yes" and go ahead with it. He earlier messed around with a "Yes" and wasted a lot of my time... with my own intelligence I figured that the "Yes" does not mean effort or proactivity or progress to him. It is probably just an English word or something to him.

[Darklord]

This is scary! Damn ... how hypocritical! Why can't people tell you in the face that they are not interested instead of wasting your time and theirs?

I don't know... Courtesy? Not wanting to offend? Attempting to be diplomatic? Trying to get a point across without using excessive force? Having experienced a few clashes with you before and realized that it's just not worth it? Giving rote answers because he just doesn't care anymore? Feeling vindictive and resentful? Actually intending to do what he said he would, but never getting around to it or forgetting about it?
Frankly, if I was giving out those answers I would have to be pretty miserable and just hoping that the other party would break up so that I wouldn't have to.

[Hexchild]

He sometimes tells me on my face that he won't do something. It is for sure that he has kept me in uncertainty when it comes to our relationship because I'm expecting a solid "NO" from him if he thinks it won't work out, so that I can go ahead and live my life the way I want to. He has not been able to say that and he has also been unable to say "Yes" and go ahead with it. He earlier messed around with a "Yes" and wasted a lot of my time... with my own intelligence I figured that the "Yes" does not mean effort or proactivity or progress to him. It is probably just an English word or something to him.

Having a thought and putting it into action are different things. To me at least (and presumably most INTPs), the difference can mean a world of mental effort. How big that gap between thought and action is depends on the stress level. So the more pressure is felt, the harder it gets to actually do something.

It has nothing to do with not being interested.

I made a post a while back about this phenomenon, here (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=728572&postcount=29).

[Nocapszy]

This is scary! Damn ... how hypocritical! Why can't people tell you in the face that they are not interested instead of wasting your time and theirs?

What's hypocritical about it?

He's lazy in his everyday demeanor, why wouldn't he be lazy in expressing himself to you?

[sharadtriyama]

I don't know... Courtesy? Not wanting to offend? Attempting to be diplomatic? Trying to get a point across without using excessive force? Having experienced a few clashes with you before and realized that it's just not worth it? Giving rote answers because he just doesn't care anymore? Feeling vindictive and resentful? Actually intending to do what he said he would, but never getting around to it or forgetting about it?
Frankly, if I was giving out those answers I would have to be pretty miserable and just hoping that the other party would break up so that I wouldn't have to.

Who is playing mind games now? If one wants others to be straightforward, one should be like that right?

[sharadtriyama]

What's hypocritical about it?

He's lazy in his everyday demeanor, why wouldn't he be lazy in expressing himself to you?

I really need to get in touch with you to disillusion me with your wise counsel!

[Decoy^]

DEAR INTP BOYFRIEND,

Run, do not walk, to the nearest exit.Pretty neat how this post has gone from a pointless post about problems with dealing with a boyfriend, to an attempt at solving personal differences/difficulties over an online forum. It's rather delightful to watch, preferably with popcorn. Hope the dirty laundy comes out soon.

Oh, and dear INTP boyfriend. Do as MacGuffin says. Should it be to late however and the shit has hit the fan, duck and cover. Then follow the lights to the nearest emergency exit...

[MongolianFireOil]

try to stay focused on breaking one spirit at a time.

:theclap: lalalalalalala

[Ellipsis]

umm how about a different angle....what do you like about your INTP?

[sharadtriyama]

Pretty neat how this post has gone from a pointless post about problems with dealing with a boyfriend, to an attempt at solving personal differences/difficulties over an online forum. It's rather delightful to watch, preferably with popcorn. Hope the dirty laundy comes out soon.

Oh, and dear INTP boyfriend. Do as MacGuffin says. Should it be to late however and the shit has hit the fan, duck and cover. Then follow the lights to the nearest emergency exit...

Wow! Here comes the ancient mariner with age-old knowledge, equipped with the awareness and alertness of a true judge! Pah @ expert opinions!

[Darklord]

Who is playing mind games now? If one wants others to be straightforward, one should be like that right?

Mind games?

I admit, some of my own inclinations and expectations are hypocritical. Probably, some of his are, too. In fact, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a single person that has lived on this planet that was not hypocritical in any way, ever.

The truth is, he probably thinks he is walking a "golden middle road" between being too pushy and holding back too much.

[sharadtriyama]

umm how about a different angle....what do you like about your INTP?

The way he blurts out his love and tries to cover up!

[Oculus Sinister]

I am terrified by you. Could it be your INTP has a type B personality and that your type A personality is OUT OF ITS FUCKING MIND?. :highfive:

[sharadtriyama]

I am terrified by you. Could it be your INTP has a type B personality and that your type A personality is OUT OF ITS FUCKING MIND?. :highfive:

He can also be Type A at times but not when it comes to relationships!

Yeah I believe in constant effort, intensity and improvisation. I cannot tolerate laziness!

[Night]

I don't know... Courtesy? Not wanting to offend? Attempting to be diplomatic? Trying to get a point across without using excessive force? Having experienced a few clashes with you before and realized that it's just not worth it? Giving rote answers because he just doesn't care anymore? Feeling vindictive and resentful? Actually intending to do what he said he would, but never getting around to it or forgetting about it?
Frankly, if I was giving out those answers I would have to be pretty miserable and just hoping that the other party would break up so that I wouldn't have to.

I love this statement. Well said, Darklord.

[sharadtriyama]

I love this statement. Well said, Darklord.

Yes I appreciate his psychological insights too but then sometimes one needs to stop thinking too much in all directions and start acting!

[Hexchild]

I cannot tolerate laziness!

That settles it then. You are incompatible.

[Delilah]

That settles it then. You are incompatible.

That's been obvious since the first post.

[Night]

Yeah I believe in constant effort, intensity and improvisation. I cannot tolerate laziness!

I retract my earlier advice.
You need to change. Unless you are embellishing (probable), your personality seems severe and inflexible.


I don't imagine you experience much success with vertebrates?

[Hexchild]

That's been obvious since the first post.

I just like to keep an open mind.

[Delilah]

I just like to keep an open mind.

You are much kinder than I.

[charred_heart]

Lots of things... :-\like what? Tell me the biggest event of your day

[sharadtriyama]

like what? Tell me the biggest event of your day

I played Neopets, went to a friend's place and then went to the mall and had a veggit patty sub... yesterday was a holiday because North India celebrated a festival called Diwali (The South Indian Deepavali was on the day before yesterday)

[booyalab]

Yes I appreciate his psychological insights too but then sometimes one needs to stop thinking too much in all directions and start acting! And where has that brought you in your relationship? Maybe you need to do less emoting acting and more thinking.

Speaking of which....this thread is more of a rant.

[Ivy]

hey, I have a friend from India, maybe you know each other!

[sharadtriyama]

hey, I have a friend from India, maybe you know each other!

Indian population is the highest in the world!

[HilbertSpace]

Dear Lady Macbeth,

It seems to me that you require a man who is pliable; one which you may mold according to your wishes; one that will take the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and still come back, undaunted.

With this in mind, I humbly suggest:

http://www.mrbill.com/MrBill.jpg

[stopharian]

Indian population is the highest in the world!


2nd highest

[sharadtriyama]

And where has that brought you in your relationship? Maybe you need to do less emoting acting and more thinking.

Speaking of which....this thread is more of a rant.

Emoting = acting??? <_< I don't get the connection!!

[Decoy^]

Wow! Here comes the ancient mariner with age-old knowledge, equipped with the awareness and alertness of a true judge! Pah @ expert opinions!I am no ancient mariner, have offered you no expert opinions and I am certainly no judge. I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt, as I think many INTPs do. According to your type, you are the judging one here, and that is apparently much of the problem between you and the unfortunate target of your attention/love.

All I was saying is that you are a true moron. Posting two ridiculous posts, with no apparent purpose other than complaining and stirring the crowd. If you thought of it as advice, you read too much into it.

You could have gotten much more constructive responses, if you had started this thread in a constructive way.

[sharadtriyama]

Dear Lady Macbeth,

It seems to me that you require a man who is pliable; one which you may mold according to your wishes; one that will take the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and still come back, undaunted.

With this in mind, I humbly suggest:

http://www.mrbill.com/MrBill.jpg


Yeah he is cute but I hope he is not INTP!

[Ivy]

Indian population is the highest in the world!

NO! Really? Tell me more! *chin on hands*

But seriously I thought China was higher, albeit not by much and probably not for long.

[charred_heart]

I played Neopets, went to a friend's place and then went to the mall and had a veggit patty sub... yesterday was a holiday because North India celebrated a festival called Diwali (The South Indian Deepavali was on the day before yesterday)the mentioning of deepavali clears your name. So! You are just an obnoxious person, and not a prank played by one of the mods!

relief.

[stopharian]

How did you 2 meet sharadtriyama?

[sharadtriyama]

I am no ancient mariner, have offered you no expert opinions and I am certainly no judge. I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt, as I think many INTPs do. According to your type, you are the judging one here, and that is apparently much of the problem between you and the unfortunate target of your attention/love.

All I was saying is that you are a true moron. Posting two ridiculous posts, with no apparent purpose other than complaining and stirring the crowd. If you thought of it as advice, you read too much into it.

You could have gotten much more constructive responses, if you had started this thread in a constructive way.

How much of this constructive response would you have contributed to? Probably none.

Speaking of being judgmental, you're the one who has been using words like "moron", "ridiculous" etc which show that you have judged me as well as my thread. If you don't want to participate, you're welcome to beat the hell out of here! You won't be missed. I have received constructive responses if you have not noticed. Of course, you'd have been too busy making up your I-argue-for-the-heck-of-it posts.

[stopharian]

I dont speak any Indian Languages.....is there a shortened form of your name we could use?

[Nocapszy]

Dear Lady Macbeth,

It seems to me that you require a man who is pliable; one which you may mold according to your wishes; one that will take the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and still come back, undaunted.

With this in mind, I humbly suggest:

http://www.mrbill.com/MrBill.jpg

Interesting how someone so unbudging requires such strict change from another. Can anyone think of another reason why EJs are hated by all Ps on some level?

[sharadtriyama]

How did you 2 meet sharadtriyama?

He wrote to me after reading my blog, claiming that he was very impressed by it.

[stopharian]

post the address for your blog

[sharadtriyama]

NO! Really? Tell me more! *chin on hands*

But seriously I thought China was higher, albeit not by much and probably not for long.

If I'm not wrong, India exceeded China's population ages back!

[attila_the_hunny]

Your guy sounds miserable. Unfortunately Ps drag ass in bad relationships, so do him a favor (and yourself?) and break up with him.

[sharadtriyama]

post the address for your blog

http://risenphoenix.wordpress.com

He wrote to me in February, 2007.

[MacGuffin]

the mentioning of deepavali clears your name. So! You are just an obnoxious person, and not a prank played by one of the mods!

relief.
You think we don't know about Hindu (or is it Jainism) holidays?

[MacGuffin]

If I'm not wrong, India exceeded China's population ages back!
You are wrong, by several hundred million.

[Ivy]

the mentioning of deepavali clears your name. So! You are just an obnoxious person, and not a prank played by one of the mods!

relief.

You're too quick to be satisfied, charred_heart. I've already said I have a friend from India, from Tamil Nadu in South India, and I'm familiar with Deepavali.

[Decoy^]

How much of this constructive response would you have contributed to? Probably none.

Speaking of being judgmental, you're the one who has been using words like "moron", "ridiculous" etc which show that you have judged me as well as my thread. If you don't want to participate, you're welcome to beat the hell out of here! You won't be missed. I have received constructive responses if you have not noticed. Of course, you'd have been too busy making up your I-argue-for-the-heck-of-it posts.I would have contributed nothing, because I have nothing to contribute. And I never claimed to have, and yet that doesn't justify you coming onto this board and acting like an ass.
And I perfectly well know that I have judged you. I said so, it was the whole and obvious point of my last post. I said I give people the benefit of the doubt. But there is no doubt left, you are acting like a fool. And with each response, reinforce that impression.

I initially posted just to throw in a sarcastic remark or two, mostly all this thread was ever good for. Now though, I feel we have a good dialogue going here. Care to tell me that I have judged you again? That I am not contributing to the thread? That I should beat the hell out of here? Come on, let me have it. Kick my teeth in...
:banana:

[sharadtriyama]

I would have contributed nothing, because I have nothing to contribute. And I never claimed to have, and yet that doesn't justify you coming onto this board and acting like an ass.
And I perfectly well know that I have judged you. I said so, it was the whole and obvious point of my last post. I said I give people the benefit of the doubt. But there is no doubt left, you are acting like a fool. And with each response, reinforce that impression.

I initially posted just to throw in a sarcastic remark or two, mostly all this thread was ever good for. Now though, I feel we have a good dialogue going here. Care to tell me that I have judged you again? That I am not contributing to the thread? That I should beat the hell out of here? Come on, let me have it. Kick my teeth in...
:banana:

Hahaha! Grow up kid.. I came here with a purpose to understand someone who is very important to me. And it is left to me to know whether or not I achieved that purpose. I don't understand how you hope to benefit out of threads on an internet forum unless you subscribe to some "click each thread for 10 cents" service. Anyway, I have better things to do than argue with babies! Thanks for your uncalled for presence. You can continue to remain irrelevant but I will not continue to respond.

[amazingkae]

Let the flying circus monkey LIVE! I predict in no time at all she will usurp the fame status of both CTG and the androgynous fruit that shall not be named.

Perhaps the mods could hook her up with TodayMe. He seemed motivated... and the riveting interaction with him would offer a poignant solution to her situation.

=))

[AKULACLASS]

I am from the Indian subcontinent and a male so I understand your background better than the other posters. I'm not going to use too much MBTI theory in my reply.

Let me explain this to you as simply as I can. INTPs are the odd men out. We are different from most other people. We are not motivated by the things that motivate others. We don't react like others would react in the same situation. And most importantly, we do not think like most people do.

I will use my self, as a part-INTP, to explain INTPs to you. I am passive to a point. My ISTJ and ISFP parents push me (as young college student) to do things that are expected in the Indian community. I ignore them. I spent my time musing about their motivations and while they rant and rave about the sacrifices they made to give me a 'Western' education. They tell me that I am not competitive. I ignore them.

I am not motivated by the fear of ostracization by the community. I am not very motivated by money. I am strong P so I have very little motivation and that will always be the case. I go into my room and I analyze world politics and economics and (if I have the equipment) tinker with little electronic gadgets. I practice martial arts. I read. I ponder philosophy. I think and I dream. I do not get along with my parents or siblings at all because we live too close together. I will never be very close to them and they will never understand me.

Are you beginning to understand? We're very, very, very passive (We rarely take the initiative). We don't think, act or behave the way other people do. And we are very independent.


I think you have a right to know what's going on if you are in a relationship with this INTP. This you should expect from him. You need to go about it in a gentle way though. Do not manipulate. Do not threaten. That will only make him defensive or force him to withdraw. Do not violate his sovereignty. That is the one thing that will force an INTP to become aggressive.

I would also like you to know that you come across as very aggressive and pushy. I would never enter into a relationship with anyone with these character traits. Aggressive people are just repulsive to me. I don't deny that I can very aggressive (unlike most INTPs but then I'm not fully INTP) but only under special (undesirable) circumstances.

You are direct and pushy and you probably have joint goals and aims that this fellow probably will not share. Can you live with that? Your relationship is probably doomed and if it is not, it will require a lot of patience on both your parts. An INTP who compulsively brushes of your suggestions with bland "I'll think about it"'s has probably withdrawn from your aggressiveness. I don't think that this is a good match.

INTPs do get along with most non INTP people if they are just acquaintances or colleagues. However, if you've read the family relationships threads, you will know that INTPs rarely get along with people they can't relate to when living in close proximity. There's just too much friction. Being E/J is a major difference and the only way it could be worse is if you were an S.

[sharadtriyama]

Let the flying circus monkey LIVE! I predict in no time at all she will usurp the fame status of both CTG and the androgynous fruit that shall not be named.

Perhaps the mods could hook her up with TodayMe. He seemed motivated... and the riveting interaction with him would offer a poignant solution to her situation.

=))

I have often noticed INTPs try to act like they are taking a different stance from the rest and they are doing this by being objective and looking at a situation from outside. Most often, they end up amusing me by their lonely outcry against something that other people think of as something else... I have observed this trend before. Is this behaviour kindled by a compelling need to stand out from the crowd?

[stopharian]

heres my best quick guess.


you 2 arent on the same wavelength in basic fundamentals like life course, goals, desires, etc.

INTPS can certainly be indecisive and prone to inaction to their own detriment. But part of the problem between you and he is that you are seeing things on a black and white level with regards to his inaction. YOu are just seeing it as laziness rather than a manifestation of a real philosophy that he holds.

I dont know if I wanna take the time to explain but lemme give you a quick example.

My father is an ISTJ and his newish wife is an ESTJ. He describes her as a motivated "goer". I find her to be odious. while she is generally quite pleasant to me I have the utmost disrespect for her. Why? Because she is always doing something. she needs to be doing something which she believes to be furthering her life along. As a Result all I see her ding is polishing the paint off of her new car, vacuming the carpet after the maids have been by, fertilising the lawn about 6 times a year and making plans to get a bigger house, bigger car, better this that or whatever.

As an INTP I find that incredibly shallow. she is do caught up in the motions of life that to me she has no life.

I am the kind of person who wants to work to live, not live to work.

I want the ability to be spontaneous so that I can enjoy my experience of life and rigid plans steal that from me.



Now of course my personal philosophy can hamstring me and lead me into lots of problems when it is applied irrationally or to broadly, I have to admit that plans and action are needed in daily life, but I see these things as inconveniences that might be carried out by braindead slave if I had some at my command. It gauls me to no end when people make statements that this is the "normal" way to be or the only way to be.



perhaps you might think about your philosophy of life, which seems to tend toward the regimented and planned, and see if there arent parts of that philosophy which are robbing you of joy just as your INTPs inaction and inability to plan are robbing him. you might get along better.


by the way. you were never an INFP.

[sharadtriyama]

I am from the Indian subcontinent and a male so I understand your background better than the other posters. I'm not going to use too much MBTI theory in my reply.

Let me explain this to you as simply as I can. INTPs are the odd men out. We are different from most other people. We are not motivated by the things that motivate others. We don't react like others would react in the same situation. And most importantly, we do not think like most people do.

I will use my self, as a part-INTP, to explain INTPs to you. I am passive to a point. My ISTJ and ISFP parents push me (as young college student) to do things that are expected in the Indian community. I ignore them. I spent my time musing about their motivations and while they rant and rave about the sacrifices they made to give me a 'Western' education. They tell me that I am not competitive. I ignore them.

I am not motivated by the fear of ostracization by the community. I am not very motivated by money. I am strong P so I have very little motivation and that will always be the case. I go into my room and I analyze world politics and economics and (if I have the equipment) tinker with little electronic gadgets. I practice martial arts. I read. I ponder philosophy. I think and I dream. I do not get along with my parents or siblings at all because we live too close together. I will never be very close to them and they will never understand me.

Are you beginning to understand? We're very, very, very passive (We rarely take the initiative). We don't think, act or behave the way other people do. And we are very independent.


I think you have a right to know what's going on if you are in a relationship with this INTP. This you should expect from him. You need to go about it in a gentle way though. Do not manipulate. Do not threaten. That will only make him defensive or force him to withdraw. Do not violate his sovereignty. That is the one thing that will force an INTP to become aggressive.

I would also like you to know that you come across as very aggressive and pushy. I would never enter into a relationship with anyone with these character traits. Aggressive people are just repulsive to me. I don't deny that I can very aggressive (unlike most INTPs but then I'm not fully INTP) but only under special (undesirable) circumstances.

You are direct and pushy and you probably have joint goals and aims that this fellow probably will not share. Can you live with that? Your relationship is probably doomed and if it is not, it will require a lot of patience on both your parts. An INTP who compulsively brushes of your suggestions with bland "I'll think about it"'s has probably withdrawn from your aggressiveness. I don't think that this is a good match.

INTPs do get along with most non INTP people if they are just acquaintances or colleagues. However, if you've read the family relationships threads, you will know that INTPs rarely get along with people they can't relate to when living in close proximity. There's just too much friction. Being E/J is a major difference and the only way it could be worse is if you were an S.

Well I agree with most of the things you've said here. If you've been following this thread, it was he who tried to contact me in the beginning. Even now, he can tell me that this will not work out, so I can go ahead with other things. Why can't he try even once and why am I supposed to bear the brunt of his passivity? Also because he is not emotional he is not hit by the consequences. Whatever! Going by the number of people here who think this won't work out, I must reconsider my current outlook in this relationship. Personally. I have wasted a lot of time in this.. in your lingo I might be "pushy" but in my mind I'm just "living" as much as I can within the time I have been provided with. And I cannot afford to let some losers take my time and presence for granted.

Thanks everyone! I got to be going now.. catch you all later, if necessary! Bye!

[Decoy^]

Hahaha! Grow up kid.. I came here with a purpose to understand someone who is very important to me. And it is left to me to know whether or not I achieved that purpose. I don't understand how you hope to benefit out of threads on an internet forum unless you subscribe to some "click each thread for 10 cents" service. Anyway, I have better things to do than argue with babies! Thanks for your uncalled for presence. You can continue to remain irrelevant but I will not continue to respond.Yes mother, you're welcome! I hope to see more of your charming personality around here. And I do hope you will consider responding to me at some point, else I grow lonely. Like this nut here:

http://www.warrenfasteners.com/ford-hex-weld-nut-6-proj.gif
See how lonely it is, please don't forget about the good times we had...

*Signing off thread*

[stopharian]

dont mistake feelings and emotions.


Feeling in the case of MBTI means making judgements based upon interpersonal dynamics.

INTPs like everyone else have emotions and sometiems they are incredibly emotional and sensitive.

In Love, their love will often be quite child like and pure, and they are gnerally very loyal people.

Beliving that your friend does not have emotions simply because he isnt expressing them could be a bad mistake.

[songbird36]

Look, she's wasting her valuable time here INTPs...you are taking far too long to deliver any useful advice. Soundbites, please..

[AKULACLASS]

I do believe she has gone.














Rejoice! We have saved an INTP brother from certain doom! :banana: :theclap:

[stopharian]

Her green light is still on. shes gonna snip your balls off and serve them at next year's diwali feast for that last comment.

[stopharian]

What part of India are you from Akulaclass?

[Ariel]

I do believe she has gone.














Rejoice! We have saved an INTP brother from certain doom! :banana: :theclap:

Yes, the woman has left the building. She was quite a bear, wasn't she? The multitude of exclamation points was hurting my brain.

But...

Somehow, her experiences and our responses perturb me. I don't know why.

Still, I want that little green light of hers to turn gray.

[Darklord]

Yeah he is cute but I hope he is not INTP!He's smiling.


I thank you for the praise of my psychological insight, and Night for his kind words, too.


Pushing him into decision-making is likely to make him feel nervous and hemmed-in, because he hasn't gotten all the information he needs to make a decision and because the option to change his mind has been removed. While it is advisable to try to nudge him in this direction, do not attempt to force him, as that is more likely to make him lock up and "drag his feet" in resentment.

If it, against all probability, should work, he is likely to do the famed INTP trick of bottling everything up and then, without warning, explode. And that explosion might take the form of shouting, unstoppable rage, running off and coming back only after quite a while, if ever - or, at the very worst, if his will is strong and the aggravation not too severe, which would provide him with fewer "triggers", it could end up in violence against himself or others. Keep in mind that the last would only be in truly extreme situations, and he may not have the necessary qualities.

A valid approach might be to try to give him a logical reason to do something now such as, "If you don't do this, this and this is gonna happen then and then." What would not work is "You have to do this NOW, or else...!" Ask him to do these things, give him a good reason to, and thank him when he's done, and you might see results. Consider hugs if what he did was more than expected. I know we are good at hiding our emotions, and that he might seem uncomfortable, but as long as you're alone, he is more likely to be overwhelmed, but pleasantly surprised, than he is to feel embarrassed, or like his privacy has been intruded.

You also need to give the guy space. An hour here and there to do whatever he wants to alone and without disturbance would probably make him more pliable in the remaining hours. You might even "plan" some downtime for him when you have something else to do, like meeting friends or participating in an organization.


Please note that all this is directed at you (Although you might let him in on the last point). This is because you are the person posting in this thread, not him.

[Karl]

Wow.

This guy is reminding me of how I often act towards my father... There's been one or two times he's come out and said that he doesn't care about my side, although when he's done lecturing me he diplomatically asks for my "rationalization" of my actions.

Last time he said that I told him that I generally act according to my rationalization, so it would make sense for my rationalization to justify my actions, sense that was the qualifier for my actions in the first place.

I am learning that he doesn't care about my side, and that I just need to sit there and listen to him for a while and then tell him that I'm not longer going to sit and listen, but he's free to do it again tomorrow. And all the while I'm either laughing in my head about his silly ideas, like how if I want to be treated like an adult, I need to act like (his idea of) an adult, or I'm furiously going over my highly detailed and complex plains for the future, which I have not shared with him, because I know he couldn't handle it. Even though I'd like his logistical input, I know I'd only be getting more cooperative-traditionalistic BS.

By the way, part of the reason my plans are so complex is because I made sure at every step there'd be an exit door, and at every step I'd have a good idea of what my choices for the next step are. In my complex plans, I'm committing to absolutely nothing, although I am increasing my options.

Edit: I do not think OP is necessarily an ENTJ. She said she "changed" from an INFP. One cannot change from an INFP into an ENTJ, so I see no reason to assume she is an ENTJ. Why, she might even be an ESFJ.

[digesthisickness]

1. He won't make plans
2. He won't make plans to make plans
3. He won't execute the plans he makes
4. He won't explain what he is thinking
5. He is evasive and passive aggressive
6. He is random

:mad:

He is gonna regret soon!


Can anybody here explain this kind of behaviour and how the hell normal human beings are expected to coexist with such bovine immobile vegetation?


Whoa! 9 people have viewed this but not one has responded..what a useful lot! :theclap: :theclap:


You think I did not anticipate that response? Bwahaha!


*Offers soap to wash up..* Also wash your towel which has not been washed in a century! You can also bathe sometimes! :)


In other words, I should be manipulative and diplomatic and make it seem like I don't really care for stuff which in reality I might be dying for... yeah this works with him at times. Sometimes it seems like he is deliberately passive to get me flared up... but perhaps he is not even thinking so much about how I feel!

Pah! All these mind games make my mind boggle! Why can't people just do what is required and get along?!


Dear rainfall and hustler.. I ask you to go get a life outside of internet forums! :happpy:


I'm assuming that his concern for himself is overshadowing his concern for me. Then, of course, I know it is not always like that... he is just made that way.. There is not much that can be done about him except get exasperated!



I'm aggressive, direct and straightforward. I'm not pushy and I know that. I'm extra-careful with not being pushy because I know he might feel suffocated by it. He either completely shuts me out or does what I call 'stonewalling'. You cannot elicit any response from him thereafter. I sometimes wonder why I hang on.. perhaps it is for the nicer things about him.. erm.. which I'm not able to recollect just now! :rolleyes:



Er.. how about imagining the future in an optimistic manner and imagining the events that led up there.. in that process you might see what you're supposed to be doing!


Insufficient data to judge me by. I'm surprised you can say such things with so much vehemence and conviction without even going through the other posts. Or am I?


Yeah if you react [the way i want] to straightforward questions and requests one need not get into all that trouble of manipulation! It is not like I WANT to do it!!

Yeah right! And what happens to what I might consider important or what I might think is better or what I might think is worth it? Goes down the drain eh? Because? The INTP is god. Is that right? As long as he does not explain why he has accepted or ditched an idea, how can I be convinced enough to agree with him?

Hmm.. I'll think about that ..but like I said earlier if I can get what I want at the first request (or an explanation why it is not possible) I'd be happier than having to play mind games to get a mere "yes" or "no"!


I'd pity the poor girl! :rofl:



Sounds good to me but it would be difficult because it would be difficult to get him to decide on meeting me so I can kick him!



I mean one would regret the loss of teeth and 30 days at the ortho's won't they? Of course, it is difficult to say in his case... he might wait to see if it is a good idea to start regretting!


I'm sure he has not started thinking about how he feels!!!!

He has already slipped 18 deadlines if I'm not wrong! And I surely need him in order to get ahead with the decisions I have made for us and obviously I can get a buffalo to run a sprint than get him to make a decision. Should I quit? :mellow:


Wasn't that an easy guess? You guys prolly do that all the time and you're unconcerned about the resulting hair loss in the other parties involved! :stupid:


1. He'll never decide on going to a lawyer until it is time for him to naturally lose his teeth.
2. I know he won't mind. Coz he lets life screw him and does not do anything about it... so losing me would be one more thing he'll passively watch.


I'd be glad if he came up with anything at all!





I too am beginning to wonder! :wub: :unsure:



It is not working... I know all his responses now.
1. We'll see about that!
2. I'm not sure!
3. I don't know.
4. I need time.
5. I have not started thinking about that yet.

Please use the above 5 sentences in different permutations and combinations and as answers to subsequent questions that might follow from these answers.
Example:
1. I need time. How much time? I don't know.
2. I have not started thinking about it yet. When will you start? I'm not sure.
3. We'll see about that. What are you planning to do? I don't know.
4. I don't know. When will you find out? I need time.

Sometimes I think he is a robot who needs some reprogramming for repetitive sentences.


He can also be Type A at times but not when it comes to relationships!

Yeah I believe in constant effort, intensity and improvisation. I cannot tolerate laziness!


Yeah he is cute but I hope he is not INTP!


How much of this constructive response would you have contributed to? Probably none.

Speaking of being judgmental, you're the one who has been using words like "moron", "ridiculous" etc which show that you have judged me as well as my thread. If you don't want to participate, you're welcome to beat the hell out of here! You won't be missed. I have received constructive responses if you have not noticed. Of course, you'd have been too busy making up your I-argue-for-the-heck-of-it posts.


He wrote to me after reading my blog, claiming that he was very impressed by it.


I have often noticed INTPs try to act like they are taking a different stance from the rest and they are doing this by being objective and looking at a situation from outside. Most often, they end up amusing me by their lonely outcry against something that other people think of as something else... I have observed this trend before. Is this behaviour kindled by a compelling need to stand out from the crowd?


Well I agree with most of the things you've said here. If you've been following this thread, it was he who tried to contact me in the beginning. Even now, he can tell me that this will not work out, so I can go ahead with other things. Why can't he try even once and why am I supposed to bear the brunt of his passivity? Also because he is not emotional he is not hit by the consequences. Whatever! Going by the number of people here who think this won't work out, I must reconsider my current outlook in this relationship. Personally. I have wasted a lot of time in this.. in your lingo I might be "pushy" but in my mind I'm just "living" as much as I can within the time I have been provided with. And I cannot afford to let some losers take my time and presence for granted.

Thanks everyone! I got to be going now.. catch you all later, if necessary! Bye!

on the off-chance that the INTP in question actually still gives a shit, i'm going to attempt to show you something. in bold, i've marked, just in the few moments you graced us with your presence, every time you either belittled him directly or indirectly by belittling his (and other's) INTP type.

if you did it this much in this short amount of time, so easily, so flippantly, and lacking any concern as to how you sound and what effect it may have, then i imagine you do the same with him daily.

any person, no matter what type, when confronted with attacks like these, will eventually go into self-preservation mode and begin to defend their heart and mind by not caring anymore.

it seems to me that he probably really did care about you at some point, but after the initial "love is blind" idealization stage wore off between you, he may no longer be able to ignore your actions any more than you can ignore his, and now you've come to the point where your differences are screaming to be heard, but neither of you are communicating the way the other needs.

if you really care about him, instead of concentrating so much on how you see him, be brave, and take a moment to look closely at what i bolded and really see yourself through his eyes.


yeah i do that too but sooner or later I begin to miss him whereas he never misses me! :unsure:

in all honesty, would you miss you?

[mancroft]

in all honesty, would you miss you?

:rofl:

[fresh]

1. He won't make plans
2. He won't make plans to make plans
3. He won't execute the plans he makes
4. He won't explain what he is thinking
5. He is evasive and passive aggressive
6. He is random

:mad:

He is gonna regret soon!

Read the type description, asshole! ;)

[rainfall]

You folks are still at it. I want to give this one passage another go. So.


Er.. how about imagining the future in an optimistic manner and imagining the events that led up there.. in that process you might see what you're supposed to be doing!

In my most optimistic manner, I see myself fit to do as little as possible. I enjoy not having to do anything. In this world, I should be doing as little as possible. As long as I have enough to eat, I do not see any need to make any plans. I am perfectly content and happy without plans, not having a plan is relaxing. I just want to wake up to another day, without having to go anywhere or do anything. I want to see sun playing with trees and spend a perfectly useless day firing away at intpc, or something. Or maybe sleeping.

[Toonia]

Human beings in general have a fundamental need for privacy and personal space. This need is greater in some types than others. INTPs would be among the types who need more privacy and space than others. When this is intruded upon, it is a violation of the person. Having control over what information we share with others is basic human dignity. Every relationship requires respecting a degree of autonomy and distance.

From my understanding and experience, INTPs are one of the most logical types. Because of this, much of their behavior is the result of their reasoning. This suggests that when an INTP does not share personal thoughts, they have a reason for that choice. There is a good chance it is a logical reason. Using coersion and other irrational tactics to pressure the INTP into changing their choice can be an outright violation. From my experience I wouldn't expect any INTP to share all their thoughts with me, but that makes it more gratifying at those times they choose to share. It then means more.

It seems like this issue of space and intrusion has been coming up various places online recently. It just put me in thought of a few things.

[Hermione]

Excellent summation , Toonia. The coersion issue is huge here, this thread. The bending to another's will I will not do anyway anyhow. It all has to be thought out, or at least given some personal and also objective consideration, then any final result is still only tentative and doesn't always require an action to be taken.

Often the hardest thing to do is to do nothing, to not overreact to peoples' attempts to control. Attempts at control are insulting. They fly in the face of stubborn independence which is just who I am anyway. I can't imagine being a 'boyfriend' in this type of thing and not just running away.

[Nocapszy]

on the off-chance that the INTP in question actually still gives a shit, i'm going to attempt to show you something. in bold, i've marked, just in the few moments you graced us with your presence, every time you either belittled him directly or indirectly by belittling his (and others) INTP type.

if you did it this much in this short amount of time, so easily, so flippantly, and lacking any concern as to how you sound and what effect it may have, then i imagine you do the same with him daily.

any person, no matter what type, when confronted with attacks like these, will eventually go into self-preservation mode and begin to defend their heart and mind by not caring anymore.

it seems to me that he probably really did care about you at some point, but after the initial "love is blind" idealization stage wore off between you, he may no longer be able to ignore your actions any more than you can ignore his, and now you've come to the point where your differences are screaming to be heard, but neither of you are communicating the way the other needs.

if you really care about him, instead of concentrating so much on how you see him, be brave, and take a moment to look closely at what i bolded and really see yourself through his eyes.



in all honesty, would you miss you?


That's quite a challenge miss. Asking an E__J to look in the mirror?

That's 3 doors down from suicide. 2 if they're a T.

[digesthisickness]

That's quite a challenge miss. Asking an E__J to look in the mirror?

That's 3 doors down from suicide. 2 if they're a T.

oh, well. just in case he still cares and was open in the beginning, but eventually came to the conclusion (through living this thread) that he just couldn't please her no matter what the hell he did, and is now reacting by simply 'shutting up' and not saying anything (either to keep from being scolded like an insubordinate child yet again and/or to annoy her because he's sick of being scolded), i thought i'd give it a try.

either way, it's annoying how so many people climb up on that cross and honestly think they're sacrificing when really they're taking the easy road. it doesn't take any effort at all to be self-centered and demanding. that's easy. hell, i plan on doing that later.

love comes into play when you choose the harder road and take a good, hard, merciless look at yourself and then proceed from there.

depending on how much you care, you either put up or shut up.

[MacGuffin]

From India to Norway, the beat remains the same...

I AM ENTJ AND I WILL BEAT SHIT OUT OF EVERY INTP I MEET! (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=847)

:headphone:

[Nocapszy]

either way, it's annoying how so many people climb up on that cross and honestly think they're sacrificing when really they're taking the easy road. it doesn't take any effort at all to be self-centered and demanding. that's easy. love comes into play when you choose the harder road and take a good, hard, merciless look at yourself and then proceed from there.


Wait a minute... so would that mean that I can only experience love when I'm with someone who's next to impossible to get along with by my standards, but I do it anyway, they're sick and require transplants, or any other thing that would stand in the way of a positive relationship?

I suppose that would explain all the divorces in america.

American view is apparently: Love = Hate.

Huh. Who'd'a' thought?

(Don't PM me I'm fully aware of what I'm doing)

[rainfall]

take a good, hard, merciless look at yourself and then proceed from there.


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

*scratches eyes out*

[Nocapszy]

From India to Norway, the beat remains the same...

I AM ENTJ AND I WILL BEAT SHIT OUT OF EVERY INTP I MEET! (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=847)

:headphone:

Same person?

[MacGuffin]

Same person?

Oh no. Universal was a one of a kind.

[rainfall]

Oh no. Universal was a one of a kind.

You should have kept him around. Like a caged lion or something. Wait a minute... It has an e-mail...

[MacGuffin]

You should have kept him around. Like a caged lion or something. Wait a minute... It has an e-mail...
A lengthy stay in Purgatory? I am always up for that. :vader:

[dissonance]

i didn't read this whole thread but this girl seems more like an ESTJ than ENTJ.

saying shit like "the way it should be" etc.

[sharadtriyama]

on the off-chance that the INTP in question actually still gives a shit, i'm going to attempt to show you something. in bold, i've marked, just in the few moments you graced us with your presence, every time you either belittled him directly or indirectly by belittling his (and other's) INTP type.

if you did it this much in this short amount of time, so easily, so flippantly, and lacking any concern as to how you sound and what effect it may have, then i imagine you do the same with him daily.

any person, no matter what type, when confronted with attacks like these, will eventually go into self-preservation mode and begin to defend their heart and mind by not caring anymore.

it seems to me that he probably really did care about you at some point, but after the initial "love is blind" idealization stage wore off between you, he may no longer be able to ignore your actions any more than you can ignore his, and now you've come to the point where your differences are screaming to be heard, but neither of you are communicating the way the other needs.

if you really care about him, instead of concentrating so much on how you see him, be brave, and take a moment to look closely at what i bolded and really see yourself through his eyes.



in all honesty, would you miss you?

Some people here don't get SARCASM! Luckily, my boyfriend does. So I'm saved. He never thinks of such exagerrations by me, to be belittling.

[digesthisickness]

Some people here don't get SARCASM! Luckily, my boyfriend does. So I'm saved. He never thinks of such exagerrations by me, to be belittling.

yes, yes. he adores you. can't get enough of you, thinks you're a real riot, and is missing you terribly right now while you're on this forum asking for advice.

[Nocapszy]

Some people here don't get SARCASM! Luckily, my boyfriend does. So I'm saved. He never thinks of such exagerrations by me, to be belittling.

Well then you two are perfect for one another. A pair of delusional idiots.

As much as I'd like to leave it with just that, I can't help myself but ask, again:


Are you sure?


Luckily, my boyfriend does. So I'm saved.

I'm not. Know why? I'll let you in on a little secret, here's the thing: Sarcasm is one thing - what you did was attempt psycho-murder in the first degree. Well, I guess that's not really a secret.

I'm surprised you can even read my posts with your head in your ass. Doesn't it hurt your back to arch it over like that? I guess it does or else you wouldn't have made this thread.

[Nocapszy]

Uh, just out of curiosity, why would you start a thread, give an extremely vague description of the situation, and the argue with us because we don't understand your relationship?

[Nocapszy]

i didn't read this whole thread but this girl seems more like an ESTJ than ENTJ.

saying shit like "the way it should be" etc.

I wasn't going to say anything but yeah I think so too.

[fresh]

Uh, just out of curiosity, why would you start a thread, give an extremely vague description of the situation, and the argue with us because we don't understand your relationship?

Apparently you don't know the devilish depths of the chaotic, vulgar ENTJ mind. ;)

[dissonance]

yeah there's no way she's ENTJ

[sharadtriyama]

I wasn't going to say anything but yeah I think so too.

In response to all of your comments above, "Get sober and come back with sensible stuff. I'll wait!"

[sharadtriyama]

Why are all these people who don't understand a thing about this thread, here? Is it because they generally like to type stuff around? Just wondering...

[Nocapszy]

Apparently you don't know the devilish depths of the chaotic, vulgar ENTJ mind. ;)

She's not an ENTJ, and I DO understand exactly what's going on here.

[Nocapszy]

In response to all of your comments above, "Get sober and come back with sensible stuff. I'll wait!"


Why are all these people who don't understand a thing about this thread, here? Is it because they generally like to type stuff around? Just wondering...

Did you even read what I said?

Seriously, did you? It's not our fault we don't understand. You gave minimal information. How could we understand everything about your relationship?

Added: I'm not sure you even know what's going on here. However, I may have figured it out - you like verbal/literary combat, and intentionally gave too little information for anyone to get a grip on your relationship so you could fight with them as soon as they said anything. Hopefully you'll find another good forum to go to once you get banned from here. Definitely don't go to the real world with that attitude though. They'll throw you in prison for resisting arrest when you don't comply with the police officers request.

Hell, I bet you could get yourself arrested in an interchange as simple as you asking for directions from a cop.

[cafe]

I think you are not actually in love with the INTP. You are in love with his potential and the person you think he can be when you have shaped him into something more like yourself. You are in love with an imaginary person. You should find someone who is closer to that imaginary person than the INTP is.

[digesthisickness]

i want to blow the person that changed the name of this thread. so, heads up whoever you are.

[Shoot!]

God only knows that if I was dating someone like you, I'd be thrilled if you told me it was over.

[bluebell]

Why are all these people who don't understand a thing about this thread, here? Is it because they generally like to type stuff around? Just wondering...

We all understand perfectly well. And no, we're not going to tell you how to change him. Either you love him as he is now, or you don't.

[fresh]

She's not an ENTJ, and I DO understand exactly what's going on here.

Disagree on both fronts. ;)

[Nocapszy]

Disagree on both fronts. ;)

K
;)

[dissonance]

Disagree on both fronts. ;)

how is she ENTJ?

[MacGuffin]

I liked the original title...

[Shoot!]

This topic is now about...pumpkin pie.

Mmm mmm, I love that pumpkin pie.

[helium]

Oyu llrecay rea uncofeds tuboa het amtviooisnt fo PINsT. Ytr esaiknpg shi gguaelna.

[digesthisickness]

I liked the original title...

*whew*

[sharadtriyama]

Did you even read what I said?

Seriously, did you? It's not our fault we don't understand. You gave minimal information. How could we understand everything about your relationship?

I was not arguing with you at all.. in fact I appreciated your counsel in the beginning. I was refuting decoy's accusations because he was judging me very superficially, like a lot of other people here.

It is ok to be aggressive and initiate action in life. Just because, you're all passive it does not mean it is the best way to be...

If you have decided to wear a filter that will make me look like some cantankerous, loud, pushy female then you pretty much won't see anything else. A lot of people have this sort of a wrong perception about me because text-on-screen does not have a voice or a tone. I'm a very soft-spoken person in reality and half the rude things I say are said in jest. Anyway, that is beside the point.

I understand this thread requires people to analyze my nature as well but I feel people can refrain from ad hominem attacks. If you think I'm wrong there are polite ways to put them across... of course I'm not here to sermonize.

I returned to read some of your valuable points again and I was pretty surprised by the after effects (bitching, to be precise).

[MacGuffin]

*whew*
Threatening violence against INTPs is how we identify ENTJs!

[sharadtriyama]

I understand that this forum is a mere tavern moderated by a bunch of hooligans who hang out with their own rigid notions about the way things are. I saw both my signature removed and my post title edited.

Reminds me of these lines:
"If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools"

[MacGuffin]

I understand that this forum is a mere tavern moderated by a bunch of hooligans hang out with their own rigid notions about the way things are. I saw both my signature removed and my post title edited.
I am wearing a hoodie.

Your signature was removed by a rogue program (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=24566).

[Nocapszy]

I understand that this forum is a mere tavern moderated by a bunch of hooligans hang out with their own rigid notions about the way things are. I saw both my signature removed and my post title edited.

Reminds me of these lines:
"If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools"

LOL!

Talk about irony huh?

[Nocapszy]

I understand that this forum is a mere tavern moderated by a bunch of hooligans hang out with their own rigid notions about the way things are. I saw both my signature removed and my post title edited.

Reminds me of these lines:
"If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools"

You signature was removed because it was inaccurate. Same applies with the title. Corrections needed to be made.

[fresh]

Threatening violence against INTPs is how we identify ENTJs!

Threatening violence against this INTP is how I identify potential kink partners. ;)

[MacGuffin]

Threatening violence against this INTP is how I identify potential kink partners. ;)
"I will violate you with a 2x4"

Now what?

[Shades of Gray]

I think you are not actually in love with the INTP. You are in love with his potential and the person you think he can be when you have shaped him into something more like yourself. You are in love with an imaginary person. You should find someone who is closer to that imaginary person than the INTP is.

I was thinking exactly the same thing. Sadly, you can't change him. He is the way he is. Love him for who he is, or you'll never be happy.


i want to blow the person that changed the name of this thread. so, heads up whoever you are.

:popcorn:


We all understand perfectly well. And no, we're not going to tell you how to change him. Either you love him as he is now, or you don't.

Yeah, all of us here identify with him. We understand him and accept him. Look into yourself and see if you can do the same. It may not be possible.


Oyu llrecay rea uncofeds tuboa het amtviooisnt fo PINsT. Ytr esaiknpg shi gguaelna.

Hahahahaha! :clown:

[amazingkae]

Wow....

Edit: I do not think OP is necessarily an ENTJ. She said she "changed" from an INFP. One cannot change from an INFP into an ENTJ, so I see no reason to assume she is an ENTJ. Why, she might even be an ESFJ.

She may also be a LUNATIC and off her banana MEDS.

LOL

[Nocapszy]

"I will violate you with a 2x4"

Now what?

Now look him up on google maps and fulfill the potential he assigns you.

[sharadtriyama]

She may also be a LUNATIC and off her MEDS.

LOL

Yeah... ever read Ward No. 6 by Chekhov?

[Sojourner]

I understand that this forum is a mere tavern moderated by a bunch of hooligans who hang out with their own rigid notions about the way things are.

Would you care to link some examples? I don't feel like reading through all 94,561,008.3 pages of rantage.

[Shades of Gray]

It is ok to be aggressive and initiate action in life. Just because, you're all passive it does not mean it is the best way to be...

It is the best way for us to be. Luckily, not everyone is like us, or not much would get done in the world.

There is a need for all types. Trying to change one type into another is an excercise in futility.


I returned to read some of your valuable points again and I was pretty surprised by the after effects (bitching, to be precise).

This was a very nice post. If you had started out this way, I'm positive you would have recieved a much better dialogue. :wub:

[sharadtriyama]

Would you care to link some examples? I don't feel like reading through all 94,561,008.3 pages of rantage.

Don't. The door is that way.

[Sojourner]

Don't. The door is that way.

O_o

Well, that's nice. I suppose if you hadn't been primed into a state of defensive oversensitivity, you would have been less likely to interpret my comment as an attack.

But as you wish.

-exit-

[Water Bird]

It is ok to be aggressive and initiate action in life. Just because, you're all passive it does not mean it is the best way to be...


And just because you're more aggressive doesn't mean that aggession is the best way to be either. There can be no all-inclusive superlatives regarding behavior. Different things work for different people, providing them with the 'best' way of functioning in their personal lives. For people with different approaches to life to co-exist, there must be an acceptance that the ways of those other than themselves are valid. Only then can the two sides work to find common ground and found a partnership. If either party treats the other like a misguided child that only needs to 'see the light' of their argument, it means that there is no real respect for that person as an individual capable of making their own decisions. Without respect there can be no equality, and without equality a true relationship can never exist.

[Marston]

If you have decided to wear a filter that will make me look like some cantankerous, loud, pushy female then you pretty much won't see anything else.

My bad.

[Karl]

I kind of want to talk to the INTP now to see his side.

Ha, INTP Central now does relationship counseling...

[Shoot!]

My bad.

My bad, as well.:highfive:

[sharadtriyama]

And just because you're more aggressive doesn't mean that aggession is the best way to be either.

No I did not say that. I was only defending myself.

[Nocapszy]

It is ok to be aggressive and initiate action in life. Just because, you're all passive it does not mean it is the best way to be...



No I did not say that. I was only defending myself.

Yes you did.

and How is that defense?

[Nocapszy]

I kind of want to talk to the INTP now to see his side.

Ha, INTP Central now does relationship counseling...

Hardly...

[Nocapszy]

Are you seriously trying to convince the members of this forum that your particular view of the relationship is unflawed, and that we're insane for even bothering to question whether you've come to grips with the situation as it is?

Sorry, I can't pwn you anymore - I have to go buy a hot dot. It's past dinner time.

[sharadtriyama]

Hardly...

:gm: Actually, I feel like I ran away from a lone mad elephant and walked into a herd of mad elephants!

[Sojourner]

[And now I really can't resist commenting...]

Greetings, fellow mad elephants.

[Karl]

:gm: Actually, I feel like I ran away from a lone mad elephant and walked into a herd of mad elephants!

And we have another user title.

[Sojourner]

Of course you wouldn't descend to identifying yourself as "one of a herd of mad elephants", would you...

[Karl]

No I did not say that. I was only defending myself.

Okay, INTP Central is doing one of two things.

1. Being pissed off at your insults towards INTPs or your INTPs. And you may be joking, but you remind me of enimen.


I joke when I say I'm best
in the booth, but a lot of truth is said in jest

2. Trying to give you another perspective. People aren't going to try to give you your perspective because you already have that.

You do sound like many ESTJ's, but the fact that you're posting here makes me think that you really are interested in the other perspective, unlike many ESTJs. A lot of people are guessing that too, and so they're trying to clarify , like so many NTs do, so we can help you make a more informed decision.

[Karl]

Of course you wouldn't descend to identifying yourself as "one of a herd of mad elephants", would you.

Maybe if this was an ENTP forum.

[Kelric]

I think you are not actually in love with the INTP. You are in love with his potential and the person you think he can be when you have shaped him into something more like yourself. You are in love with an imaginary person. You should find someone who is closer to that imaginary person than the INTP is.

I couldn't agree more. Sharadtriyama, if you really, really want to be with this guy, I think you're going to have to be willing to give quite a bit more than you have told us you're willing to.

You mentioned way up above that:

Sometimes it seems like he is deliberately passive to get me flared up... but perhaps he is not even thinking so much about how I feel!

Did you consider that to him, he probably thinks that you're being aggressive just to control him and forcing him into things that he's not ready to decide (running roughshod over him as you're doing so)? Have you considered that you may not be thinking about how he feels? As others have mentioned, it's almost a certainty that your aggressiveness is amplifying the very responses that are annoying you so much. If you're going to have any chance with this guy, you need to tone things back. Don't overwhelm him with a slew of questions and demands. *Pick your battles* - don't nitpick over every little thing, and don't expect him to make decisions quickly or do everything you want simply because you want him to. Just because he doesn't always say a lot doesn't mean that he's a blank slate and wants you to tell him what to do/think (it's likely that this is exactly what he does NOT want). If he says that he doesn't know what he wants on an issue that's really important to you, tell him that it's important to you and ask him to think about it and then check back in a few days.

As you've seen, confronting him with expectations of a decisive resolution is only going to make him withdraw - confronting him again is NOT going to help. If you can't live with this and accept him for who he is, you should end things and look for someone more like yourself - and I have to say that seems to be what you want. There's nothing wrong with wanting that, but trying to shoehorn him into your views of how he should be isn't going to work - in that case you're both going to wind up miserable if one of you doesn't break it off.

Folks here have given you a lot of information (even the posts you've ridiculed have been right on target). From what you've told us, I have to agree with others that you and this guy simply aren't compatible - it's possible that you *could* make things work if you're both willing to change a lot, but that doesn't seem like the case. Sometimes things just aren't right and moving on is the best option for both.

[amazingkae]

Yes you did.

and How is that defense?

Ever been to a zoo? Caged monkeys like to throw poop.

I'm serious.

There is no explanation other that it has to do with class--not type--of people. To these particular E psychological profiles, there is no why--only doo.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And NO, OP. The remarks are horribly undermining, hurtful, and not at all funny. An INTP may be accustomed to feigning agreement with the humor, but we KNOW that ultimately it is NOT FUNNY because it is deeply rooted in your fundamentally ugly and self-centered exploitation style opinion of truth.

Digest hit the nail head on (she's astute). I'm going to light a candle and say a prayer for your INTP to easily get away from you and out of this situation with as few CLAW MARKS you will inevitably try to put on.

I recommend he learns to just smile, nod, and agree with you and no matter what it is you say reply, "I agree with you totally. You are right. Whetever you want." or, "It's all good." [Meanwhile, roughing in the exit plan.] Then, with any luck he'll also learn very shortly to say with force and meaning, "Have a nice day elsewhere."

Maybe he'll do another successful INTP ploy and find a way to deposit you around some other love interest to divert you limited capacity for loyalty and respectful intention. The weather is getting chilly and the holidays are coming. Sounds like the perfect time for him to get motivated to take you out somewhere he can get rid of you.

One last word of advice... Don't worry OP--there are men in the world JUST LIKE YOU. Find one, and he will appreciate the abuse. An INTP will never be the type for you to manipulate and use. We are running on a different sort of emotional juice.

[Anonymous]

1. He won't make plans
2. He won't make plans to make plans
3. He won't execute the plans he makes
4. He won't explain what he is thinking
5. He is evasive and passive aggressive
6. He is random

:mad:

He is gonna regret soon!

Is he an untouchable? Are you an untouchable?

[Karl]

*Pick your battles*

Speaking of battles...

Most of the time you can get an INTP to do what you want if you can make him or her that feel like that it's their idea... They're not doing because they have to, but because their logical analysis (maybe you supplied some info or a new perspective, but certainly their analysis) is in the affirmative. Although they'll probably still need to "sleep on it." This doesn't mean to be pushy or repetitive, just make your point.

If he cares about you as much as he probably does to stick with you, he would probably do some things even without the logical analysis. I know there's a few people who could do that to me. But if you use it too much it'll really backfire. I can't even see using that more than twice a year, if it must be done at all.

Really, you might read the INTP profile on this site if you haven't.

I'll even supply you the link.

http://www.intpcentral.com/?mode=content&action=profile

[AKULACLASS]

What part of India are you from Akulaclass?

The south. Kerala to be exact.

________________________________________________________________________


I understand that this forum is a mere tavern moderated by a bunch of hooligans who hang out with their own rigid notions about the way things are. I saw both my signature removed and my post title edited.

Reminds me of these lines:
"If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools"


Don't. The door is that way.


Here is a hint for you Sharad: If you want the help and/or advice of someone, do not insult them! Perhaps you are jesting, but your posts from the very beginning have been, as I said before, aggressive.

The first post itself could be paraphrased as: "My INTP doesn't do what I want. He's going to get beaten up real bad".

A post on an internet forum cannot carry jests and emotions across to its readers, only words. So be polite. We are not trying to attack you, but if we think that someone is simultaneously asking advice of us and insulting us....

Many posters have said this before: We are passive yet independent. We are thinkers more than doers. Accept us for who we are or move on. You cannot change us. We are who we are. Just as you are who you are.

You are rigid and you see the world as a list of things to do. I sympathize with you on his passiveness but he will not change. You will probably not get along with this fellow in a long term relationship.

Please do not single-handedly try to beat down all the posters in this forum. That only hardens our view of your aggressiveness and ultimate incompatibility with this poor, poor, poor man (God rest his Soul).

[digesthisickness]

truthfully, i think what pisses you off the most isn't that he is passive, but that he's not. if he really was, you'd be in heaven.

[amazingkae]

Cheers to Digest... from the upscale class representing the best of E! *wub her* SEE? The OP person's type is not so much MBTI but based in genetics, free will, and upbringing. Prayers, candles... all we need now is a voodoo doll and an incantation from Hermione to help the INTP break free.

ADDING: INTPs are never passive; we're simply delaying swift and decisive action while calculating.

[Sojourner]

OP = original poster? I was getting curious...

[digesthisickness]

Cheers to Digest... from the upscale class representing the best of E! *wub her* SEE? The OP person's type is not so much MBTI but based in genetics, free will, and upbringing. Prayers, candles... all we need now is a voodoo doll and an incantation from Hermione to help the INTP break free.

INTPs are never passive; we're simply delaying swift and decisive action while calculating.

aww :wub:

[demagogic_schizoid]

Reminds me of these lines:
"If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools"

:grin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFuHIGd92r0

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim,
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same:.
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build'em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings,
And never breathe a word about your loss:
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much:
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

[Sojourner]

I find that poem to be infinitely insulting to women. :D

We had to memorize it in sixth grade...

[demagogic_schizoid]

I find that poem to be infinitely insulting to women. :D

We had to memorize it in sixth grade...

it would be, it was written in the 1920's or something, and Rudyard Kipling was an upper class Englishmen, which pretty much destined him to be a racist misogynist.

Parts of it are good though.

[amazingkae]

That was HYSTERICAL! Thank you for the thespian youtube poetry slam production...


:grin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFuHIGd92r0

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much:
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! [/I]

[Sojourner]

Sadly, when I saw the title of the Youtube video, I immediately thought "Interactive Fiction".

>.>


it would be, it was written in the 1920's or something, and Rudyard Kipling was an upper class Englishmen, which pretty much destined him to be a racist misogynist.
And a jingoist, let's not forget. I like pointlessly pointing these things out.


Parts of it are good though.
Of course. Talk about impossible expectations, eh?

[demagogic_schizoid]

And a jingoist, let's not forget. I like pointlessly pointing these things out.

and an unapolagetic imperialist, may I add.

your turn.

[V Profane]

Fuck, you go out on a 48 hour bender, and miss a totally bat shit insane thread like this. You just can't win.

[Sojourner]

and an unapolagetic imperialist, may I add.

your turn.
Hm. I think we've covered everything that I wrote about in my seventh-grade report...

[fresh]

Fuck, you go out on a 48 hour bender, and miss a totally bat shit insane thread like this. You just can't win.

What? This thread isn't bat shit insane by INTP standards and I think it's kinda bor...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

[Karl]

OP = original poster? I was getting curious...

I've always assumed it did.


I like pointlessly pointing these things out.

Pointless pointing is a favorite passtime of mine.

[Water Bird]

As long as we're talking poetic advice, it's good to remember that later in life Kipling himself essentially decided that his poem 'If' (a classic pre-war piece in the heroic style) was a load of crap. After his son died in WWI he changed his tune, coming out with pieces like Gethsemane (http://home.clara.net/stevebrown/html/expeience_of_war/kipling_gethsemane.htm).

[demagogic_schizoid]

As long as we're talking poetic advice, it's good to remember that later in life Kipling himself essentially decided that his poem 'If' (a classic pre-war piece in the heroic style) was a load of crap. After his son died in WWI he changed his tune, coming out with pieces like Gethsemane (http://home.clara.net/stevebrown/html/expeience_of_war/kipling_gethsemane.htm).

That doesn't make the advice bad in itself. Many thinkers don't live up to the htings they say or even stand by them forever, this can't invalidate the writings in itself.

of course "If" shouldn't be taken in exactly the way he meant it, because he meant it in a British Army 1920's "shoot the brown people" type manner. Perhaps the impossibility of that victorian era derived moral code of no sex and stiff upper lip was what drove him to ruin in later life - too much repression leads to immoderate outpouring, etc. However, that doesn't mean nothing from the poem can be salvaged by the reader.

[Sojourner]

Is it a load of crap?

[Water Bird]

of course "If" shouldn't be taken in exactly the way he meant it, because he meant it in a British Army 1920's "shoot the brown people" type manner.

Gotta love that historical context! :rofl:


However, that doesn't mean nothing from the poem can be salvaged by the reader.

Naturally. I actually really like the poem. I just thought that, since we were looking at advice that Kipling came up with, it would be pertinent to note that his ideas and ideals evolved quite a bit after this point.

[Sojourner]

What's more important to us, the particular advice Kipling came up with - or Kipling himself? Because the evolution of his ideals is insignificant if we're focusing on each poem as a separate work instead of as a part of Kipling's life.

[That was very badly phrased.]

Basically, what's more important in the interpretation of a work: the author or the work itself?

[demagogic_schizoid]

As far as I can tell, both water Bird and Sojourner have made relevant and intelligent comments illuminating mine, and our collective, understanding of Kipling. It's interesting to develop an understanding of Kipling's evolution as a thinker, but at the same time to not let this cloud our analysis of "If". As far as I can tell everyone so far has agreed on this. In fact it's one of the best conversations I've had on intpc. Group hug. :)

oh, and, join my cult please.

kidding!

[Toonia]

This person can't be real, right? The reference comparing INTPs to a crazy herd of elephants put me over the top. This has to be a scam. :huh:

If it isn't, then wow. Nah, can't be real.

[Xenolith]

Well she does fit the ENTJ description.

- Their enthusiasm for verbal debates can make them appear argumentative
- Tendency to be challenging and confrontational
- Tend to get involved in "win-lose" conversations
- Tendency to have difficulty listening to others
- Tendency to be critical of opinions and attitudes which don't match their own
- Extremely high standards and expectations
- Not naturally in tune with people's feelings and reactions
- May have difficulty expressing love and affection, sometimes seeming awkward or inappropriate
- Can be overpowering and intimidating to others
- Tendency to want to always be in charge, rather than sharing responsibilities
- Can be very harsh and intolerant about messiness or inefficiency
- Tendency to be controlling
- If unhappy or underdeveloped, they may be very impersonal, dictatorial, or abrasive
- Tendency to make hasty decisions

You have no business being with an INTP.

[booyalab]

ENTJs and INTPs can be workable, but this girl has character fllaws that make her incompatible with that particular INTP, who probably has character flaws too. Relationships shouldn't be painful.

[Delilah]

No offense intended, but It seems her character flaws make her incompatible with the vast majority of the population.

[booyalab]

No offense intended, but It seems her character flaws make her incompatible with the vast majority of the population.
no, I think she would be perfect for a guy who's an even bigger control freak than she is.

[V Profane]

character fllaws

I lol'd!

[Lurker]

Dear OP, Shut the fuck up!

Thanks. :)

(Was that assertive enough?)

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=77156&rendTypeId=4

[booyalab]

I like Lurker's idea.

[Delilah]

no, I think she would be perfect for a guy who's an even bigger control freak than she is.

I still envision a murder plot somehow...........

[Lurker]

I like Lurker's idea.

:highfive:

[Water Bird]

Hi all,

Just wanted to clarify that I'm not beating on 'If' here. And when we're just looking for the meaning of a group of words, the context isn't always necessary. In poems that are giant metaphors it might be. And at other times you need to look at the historical context to know what the heck the poet was talking about. For example, many stanzas of Ginsberg's 'Howl' don't mean much unless you know something about the Beat counterculture of the 1950s. On the other hand, most of Frost's poems need no such background.

'If' doesn't require context to understand. The only reason I pointed it out is that the poem is intended to be advice to readers, and the message Kipling wished to convey clearly changed later in his life. I just thought that Kipling himself might have wanted people to know that there was a 'version 2.0' of his personal philosopy, so to speak, especially since he was so keen on the sharing of ideas. He grew to resent the heroic ideal because his son was killed in battle, and thus distanced himself from everything connected with it. That doesn't mean there was nothing good or useful to be taken from that ideal, including the poetry inspired by it.

Anyway, this has all gotten horribly off topic, and I promise I'll shut up about it now. I just wanted to try to give an honest answer to Sojourner's nifty question:


Basically, what's more important in the interpretation of a work: the author or the work itself?

'Cause questions and debates about things like that make me happy. See icon for further details.

[Xenolith]

Hi all,

Just wanted to clarify that I'm not beating on 'If' here. And when we're just looking for the meaning of a group of words, the context isn't always necessary. In poems that are giant metaphors it might be. And at other times you need to look at the historical context to know what the heck the poet was talking about. For example, many stanzas of Ginsberg's 'Howl' don't mean much unless you know something about the Beat counterculture of the 1950s. On the other hand, most of Frost's poems need no such background.

'If' doesn't require context to understand. The only reason I pointed it out is that the poem is intended to be advice to readers, and the message Kipling wished to convey clearly changed later in his life. I just thought that Kipling himself might have wanted people to know that there was a 'version 2.0' of his personal philosopy, so to speak, especially since he was so keen on the sharing of ideas. He grew to resent the heroic ideal because his son was killed in battle, and thus distanced himself from everything connected with it. That doesn't mean there was nothing good or useful to be taken from that ideal, including the poetry inspired by it.

Anyway, this has all gotten horribly off topic, and I promise I'll shut up about it now. I just wanted to try to give an honest answer to Sojourner's nifty question:



'Cause questions and debates about things like that make me happy. See icon for further details.

The train derailed and ran off a cliff.

[Limey]

Since my loony bun is fine Benny Lava, I too, speak several Indian languages, including every Punjabi swear word!

I hope this isn't another offshoring to India offer, christ, (Vishnu, whomever) if one more call center, heads over there and I have to ask for level 2 support one more time...

Please don't offshore INTPc administration or you'll have to deal with Ashok or Karmjit or Sukhvinder every time you want to raise an issue and they'll just open the vBulletin manual to try and answer a user complaint.

[Ivy]

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=3256

[Oso Mocoso]

Hey, if we got the OP's mailing address, could we order her a doormat as a group gift from Amazon.com?

I think she'd love that.

--Oso

[helium]

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you; [...]

I always loved this poem. For what I do for my wife, her father, when he first met me, compared me to Gunga Din. I thought it was very flattering.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Hi all,

Just wanted to clarify that I'm not beating on 'If' here. And when we're just looking for the meaning of a group of words, the context isn't always necessary. In poems that are giant metaphors it might be. And at other times you need to look at the historical context to know what the heck the poet was talking about. For example, many stanzas of Ginsberg's 'Howl' don't mean much unless you know something about the Beat counterculture of the 1950s. On the other hand, most of Frost's poems need no such background.

'If' doesn't require context to understand. The only reason I pointed it out is that the poem is intended to be advice to readers, and the message Kipling wished to convey clearly changed later in his life. I just thought that Kipling himself might have wanted people to know that there was a 'version 2.0' of his personal philosopy, so to speak, especially since he was so keen on the sharing of ideas. He grew to resent the heroic ideal because his son was killed in battle, and thus distanced himself from everything connected with it. That doesn't mean there was nothing good or useful to be taken from that ideal, including the poetry inspired by it.

Anyway, this has all gotten horribly off topic, and I promise I'll shut up about it now. I just wanted to try to give an honest answer to Sojourner's nifty question:



'Cause questions and debates about things like that make me happy. See icon for further details.

you didn't join my group hug?

Anyway, I think you were correct to add what you did about Kipling: I found it interesting. I's true that we should emphasize the flaws in the poem as a rallying call for young men to be "heros" in the way RK would have wanted - the example of his son's death trying to exemplify that romantic and impossible vision of a "man", and RK's own U-turn on this, is a symbolic example to show that the ideals of that generation, which RK was promoting, were an apology for a disastrous system.

At the same time, like you acknowledged, in a different social context, some of the advice can still be good. After all, that generation of people did make a hell of a lot of progress in certain areas (ie laying the foundations for a fully capitalist global economy for the first time in human history) even if it was slanted in favour of a colonial elite. To defeat their bad points, you have to learn from them too - ie we shouldn't "throw the baby out with the bath water". ;)

[Limey]

I always loved this poem. For what I do for my wife, her father, when he first met me, compared me to Gunga Din. I thought it was very flattering.

You know he was more likely trying to insult though, right?

...to which the only response should be "ooga booga, were da white women at?"

[Water Bird]

demagogic_schizoid: Group hug. :)

Since this thread has MPD anyway.

[rainfall]

Well done people. Another new member bullied.

[helium]

You know he was more likely trying to insult though, right?

...to which the only response should be "ooga booga, were da white women at?"

I don't think either of them were trying to insult, actually. I know her father wasn't insulting me -- he was clear about that. I'm also pretty sure that Kipling had seen an unabashedly similar giving and unselfish attitude when writing Gunga Din. I assume you've read it more than once, yes?

[amazingkae]

I always loved this poem. For what I do for my wife, her father, when he first met me, compared me to Gunga Din. I thought it was very flattering.

I just KNEW I remembered you from somewhere... :gm:

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/sam_jaffe_as_gunga_din_1.jpg

"You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!"

v.

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/diwali4.jpg

THAT WOMAN.

Battle of good and evil live on INTPC Saturday Night Fights... EPIC.

[Karl]

Well done people. Another new member bullied.

At least it was mutual this time.

[Oso Mocoso]

At least it was mutual this time.

Did the mean Indian lady pick on you, Mr. Marx, founder of Communism?

There, there. Do you want to talk about it?

--Oso

[Karl]

Did the mean Indian lady pick on you, Mr. Marx, founder of Communism?

There, there. Do you want to talk about it?

--Oso

Well, no. I didn't troll either. I did see her pick on a few members of INTPC, as well as criticize INTPs as INTPs.

[helium]

I just KNEW I remembered you from somewhere... :gm:

Battle of good and evil live on INTPC Saturday Night Fights... EPIC.

:rofl:

One fight at a time, plz! Kthx!

:happpy:

[Limey]

I don't think either of them were trying to insult, actually. I know her father wasn't insulting me -- he was clear about that. I'm also pretty sure that Kipling had seen an unabashedly similar giving and unselfish attitude when writing Gunga Din. I assume you've read it more than once, yes?

I'm going to have to chalk that one up to another hilarious American - British common people separated by a common language I guess.

I just know that people in my grandfather's generation would call it someone based on their skin tone and level of servitude.
"OI! Gunga din! Char Wolla! where's my fuckin receipt" and other charming inner-city conversations.

If Gunga din is an honorable man in your experience then fantastic, keep at that, I'll reserve the right to find it amusing.

[helium]

If Gunga din is an honorable man in your experience then fantastic, keep at that, I'll reserve the right to find it amusing.

Oh, I get the reference, of course. I'm familiar with the history. The person who made the comparison is VERY familiar with both Europe and servitude, having escaped from Nazi Germany. He's also an expert on European and Middle Eastern near and ancient history. Nevertheless, I feel certain the attitude Kipling expresses in his poem is noble and honorary (and perhaps honorable as well).

Do you believe the tone of the poem is otherwise? If so, in what way?

[Limey]

Oh, I get the reference, of course. I'm familiar with the history. The person who made the comparison is VERY familiar with both Europe and servitude, having escaped from Nazi Germany. He's also an expert on European and Middle Eastern near and ancient history. Nevertheless, I feel certain the attitude Kipling expresses in his poem is noble and honorary (and perhaps honorable as well).

Do you believe the tone of the poem is otherwise? If so, in what way?

The poem, the stories, the memoirs and ultimately Kipling himself have nothing to do with social interpretation, use of a colloquialism and what I'm generally referring to in reference to your story about your father-in-law calling you that name.
I'm not looking to get into Kipling semantics, I know what the name means, it's just that your version is different. It's.....cute.

[fresh]

Well she does fit the ENTJ description.

- Their enthusiasm for verbal debates can make them appear argumentative
- Tendency to be challenging and confrontational
- Tend to get involved in "win-lose" conversations
- Tendency to have difficulty listening to others
- Tendency to be critical of opinions and attitudes which don't match their own
- Extremely high standards and expectations
- Not naturally in tune with people's feelings and reactions
- May have difficulty expressing love and affection, sometimes seeming awkward or inappropriate
- Can be overpowering and intimidating to others
- Tendency to want to always be in charge, rather than sharing responsibilities
- Can be very harsh and intolerant about messiness or inefficiency
- Tendency to be controlling
- If unhappy or underdeveloped, they may be very impersonal, dictatorial, or abrasive
- Tendency to make hasty decisions

You have no business being with an INTP.

I disagree. Under their rough, curt surfaces they're saccharin. They can be intimidating, or else just amusing if you've got a steady mind. Not for everybody, especially those who value their time and mental health more than cheap, chaotic thrills. ;)

[sharadtriyama]

It was clear that a lot of people here think "avoidant behaviour" and "escapism" are the ideal ways to be... which is why I kept seeing them talk proudly about their own capabilities to "ignore", "run away", "run to the exit" etc. They also seem to think it is a very obvious and workable solution to problems in life. I found them advocate it to my friend who is their so-called fellow INTP.

Yeah I have one word for them. "Chicken"!

[Limey]

It was clear that a lot of people here think "avoidant behaviour" and "escapism" are the ideal ways to be... which is why I kept seeing them talk proudly about their own capabilities to "ignore", "run away", "run to the exit" etc. They also seem to think it is a very obvious and workable solution to problems in life. I found them advocate it to my friend who is their so-called fellow INTP.

Yeah I have one word for them. "Chicken"!

I could really go for some Chicken Tandoori with poppadoms right now and real mango chutney - not the crap they get here in the US. Real puree'd mango.

No Pakora though, my nickname for years was Gorah Pakora, mainly because I can't stand them - they're the Indian equivalent of quiche or Bacon Flan.