Mental powers/Logic forever versus secularity

[Tlalocone]

Hi! Fellow Intps and 'Guests' who are interested in 'deep-menthal' and logic issues. I am suggesting a topic which is 'biting' me for almost a decade(I am 23).

This problem of mine is the question whether an average human or mainly an Intp can really be victorious over some earthly/phisical/?devilish?/'dark-human-side' things such as war, terrorism, violance, greed for money and/or power and things like these by using menthal/logical powers-which we Intps, at least usually, have- ?

I think and even believe that yes, we can even if the rest of the world would not agree with this.


http://worldkids.net/jaguar/humor/spock.gif


http://www.ethbib.ethz.ch/aktuell/galerie/jung/Jung-comet.jpg



http://www.beingalivela.org/news0204/images/Socrates.jpg



These famous Intps would probably agree.(Or not at all? Who knows?)

[booyalab]

Try engaging a terrorist in logical discourse while he blows up a bus filled with small children.

[Zero Angel]

I certainly think so, but it would be very difficult. For example, people want money so they can be secure, people fight wars so they can be secure (getting resources, or piece of mind). There seems to be a lot of major negative things done out of feelings of inadaquacy or insecurity. As if there was something missing. Thats what it all seems to come down to anyways.

Just as if we are all struggling to dominate, the resources are getting used up faster and faster, and we have to work harder. Honest work doesnt seem to work by itself. The 1960s really was a golden age, but after the major population booms, resources started becoming difficult to get in spite of the technological advances of the following centuries. Costs go up, and people have to work harder to maintain their qualities of life to match population growth. So in that, it seems that some have to take shortcuts to achieve their goals.

The price of oil for example, would be a good reason, or hidden agenda, to start a war on another country. The fight against terrorism doesnt really eliminate terrorism because it is so decentralized. Yet i'm sure Bush's strategic planners already knew about this. So why fight a war which ends up with a death toll that exceeds that of the WTC attacks? For the long term security of having low prices for oil in the future, and for the long term security of those who are investing in that oil. For more security.

And thats what people seem to be afraid of! That the world will end if they're not surely anchored, secure and adaquate.

However, I with the populations steadily increasing, people will never be able to achieve total security because they will always find reasons to fight each other, to step up competition on resources, to undermine each other for their own gains.

You'd have to find a way to give others these securities so they don't have to fight for them, For example, It would take major technological breakthroughs (ie: Fusion Power) to ease the stresses of life to allow for cooperation, and in that, it might allow for major paradigm shifts to occur. Either that, or a major world war or epidemic to wipe out much of the population. But the way I see it, it would be extremely difficult, but probably not impossible for this to happen.

I tend to speak on a different and sometime inaccurate way (recently), so lets see what others have to say.

[Ascending]

Forgive me but...
menthal/logical? You passing out mints?

At the moment it seems there are too many powerful people set on the opposite. From your premise it seems we would have to start some sort of secret society and rise through power through subtle manipulation.

*Cough* http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=2524&page=1&pp=10

Kidding about the manipulation of course. :whistle:

[booyalab]

Presuppositions people have are mainly derived from things other than reason. Reason is a means to an end, it doesn't guarantee that the end will always be the same. This is how equally intelligent people can have completely different views about the world. Hitler was a genius. So the only way you'll 'reason with' people is if their views already compliment your own, or if they share your premises.

[songbird36]

Presuppositions people have are mainly derived from things other than reason. Reason is a means to an end, it doesn't guarantee that the end will always be the same. This is how equally intelligent people can have completely different views about the world. Hitler was a genius. So the only way you'll 'reason with' people is if their views already compliment your own, or if they share your premises.

Yeah and for that reason the question posed can be answered resoundingly in the "negative".

Case closed for the affirmative.

[Geoff]

Yeah and for that reason the question posed can be answered resoundingly in the "negative".

Case closed for the affirmative.

Well, agreed that it would be very difficult. Might sometimes work, with a bit of luck if you get the right people on side. Reason is never enough.

But like Booyalab says, you cant reason with a suicide bomber at the point of impact.

I'd be tempted to say that Reason is a critical factor in trying to solve some of the worlds problems, so that simple good intention does not end up misguided (ask the supporters of Nazi Germany who were hoping to make their society a better place after the Weimar republic failure). Big crossover into ethics though, which is also critical.

You probably need every MBTI type to work together. Do we have landing permission for the flying pics, ground control?

-Geoff

[Edmond Zedo]

It's not reason which makes war. One could have the greatest rational mind in history and kill someone for a ham sandwich. For reasons unrelated to reason.

[Bluehaze]

It's not reason which makes war. One could have the greatest rational mind in history and kill someone for a ham sandwich. For reasons unrelated to reason.That is definitely true. I think we are all forgetting that a ham sandwich can be incredibly tasty. My tastebuds know no logic.
;P

[Tlalocone]

Reply to member called Ascending because of the misunderstanding:

No, friend I am ABSOLUTELY:rant: !!!!!!!! AGAINST ANY secret society , I just thought as an Intp that it should not be illogical to 'believe' in the positive end even though things in the world should have a very different(-negative feeling and existential-)way:blink: :shock: :)

[Tlalocone]

Well, fellow Intps I have to admit I was not only reasoning for only logical reasons I just new in this forum and as a new comer I thought that I should try to obtain a 'universal' language (subculture?) among Intps. That is why i focused on logic because i thought that at least this could be our(INTP) common communication starting ground.

When I was writing this thread I wanted to bring in religion(the topic of real faith) in this thread but I also thought that as a newcomer member on this site that would be too provocative and it would seen as too non-Intp behavior.

So summaring all this you were Really right because logic may be overridden by temptations and earthly weeknesses.

Though I think at least at end Logic and Faith(and God's help) hand in hand could be victorious over terrorists, dictators, bad governments, military wars against anything, secret sociaties, dark religions and so on

We might just experience the notion 'the last days' and the 'signs of the times'(written in the Bible).

Of course it might not be true...but what if it is true? Should we all say:" Well, this recent, Modern world goes in the obliviously wrong direction, so we should accept it agree with as :If you can't beet them join them..." I think it would be rather cinical although my views are probably to naive and idealistic to be somewhat 'cool' and acceptable.

We are different but we humans all have the same origin, whether we call it God or not we all have the same lineage(descendance).

Thanks guys for I'm greatful for your tenet, those opinions helped me.
:)