Paul, Catholics, and that blasted human flesh.

[Eileen]

Another thread was degenerating (or perhaps evolving) to this topic, and I think it deserves its own thread. I'm hesitant to post it due to lack of interest by most INTPs (and this IS an INTP board, after all), but it's a topic that some people showed some interest in another thread in pursuing, so I'm posting it. If it falls flat, it falls flat. My apologies in advance if it offends somehow. I'm hoping that we can discuss this in a more academic/less religious way if possible.


Historically and currently, Catholicism is wrought with body and sex issues. These issues manifest themselves in the following ways (and perhaps more): possibly sexual neuroses and/or misconduct; celibate ascetic and clerical lifestyles; early renunciations of sex within marriage (no longer common); gender roles in the church; gender roles in marriage; anti-birth control, abortion, and homosexuality stances (these are all related); Eucharist (has interesting implications for the body); reverence for the Blessed Virgin Mother; family values; and probably more that just aren't coming to me right now.



As I see it, these issues may be influenced by the following: history, dogma/doctrine, theology, scripture, structure, and leadership. Maybe throw in ritual to that mix--though I think probably these issues play out ritually, so... eh, we'll see where the discussion goes. I would like to set up one very specific parameter: It is okay to argue that there is use of mind control or brain washing; that assertion is fine, but you should substantiate that statement with evidence from history, dogma/doctrine, theology, scripture, structure, and leadership.


Some questions to get the ball rolling (we shouldn't be limited to these)...

What about Catholicism leads to these "issues" about the body and sex?
What effects did culture have on Catholicism as it developed its body/sex issues over the last 2000 years?
What do you think the Bible says (and do you see contradictions)?
Do you perceive a self-hatred in St. Paul that centers around the body?



And here is a verse from Galatians 3, which probably was part of baptismal rites in the very early Church:


For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (v. 27-28)




If you have studied/read up on this topic (whether it's the body and sex in Catholicism, Catholic theology, Church history, or whatever), what have you read?

[Thermo]

I am very interested in Paul (even though I detest him so far), Historical Jesus, the bible and religion in general. I will post more later.

[Shai Gar]

dont really give much of a crap about him. i like that he brought pork and other meats to christianity but i can't honestly say anything else nice about the person or teh issue. sex has nothing to do with the church, and the church is just an institution for keeping people down and taking their cash

[Eileen]

I am very interested in Paul (even though I detest him so far), Historical Jesus, the bible and religion in general. I will post more later.

What do you believe about authorship of the Bible? Do you believe that all the epistles attributed to Paul were written by him?

[earwax]

I find it ironic that most xians do not really follow the teachings of Jesus. They follow the teachings of Paul.... And Paul's original goal was to destroy Christianity. Maybe he succeeded.

[Eileen]

I find it ironic that most xians do not really follow the teachings of Jesus. They follow the teachings of Paul.... And Paul's original goal was to destroy Christianity. Maybe he succeeded.

Ahhhhhh----but a VERY important question is, what did Paul teach and not teach? What was Paul's frame of reference as a Christian (or, as you claim, a non Christian)?


Examining authorship of the Epistles can be really illuminating. I will try to find some links later. Some scholars are saying that Paul didn't write all that was attributed to him, and you can tell by the worldview that each epistle reveals.

[Thermo]

What do you believe about authorship of the Bible? Do you believe that all the epistles attributed to Paul were written by him?

I do not believe in literal interpretation of every word of the bible. I do believe Paul wrote most of his letters himself. I also don't claim to be an expert on Paul. I just know the basics so I am interested to hear your point of view.


I find it ironic that most xians do not really follow the teachings of Jesus. They follow the teachings of Paul.... And Paul's original goal was to destroy Christianity.

I don't know if his original goal was to destroy christianity, I think he misunderstood it because they had different cultural backgrounds and lived about a generation apart. Its unfortunately that Paul's christianity rests the negative - sexual denial, worldly denial in general, and self-loathing. Jesus' christianity was about economic and spiritual justice loving God and how to live a good life.

[Eileen]

I do not believe in literal interpretation of every word of the bible. I do believe Paul wrote most of his letters himself. I also don't claim to be an expert on Paul. I just know the basics so I am interested to hear your point of view.



I have to go attend to work duties (it's reading day at the mall and the schools are supposed to show up--stuuuupppiiiidddd, why I can't I have my Saturday OFF?), but I will get out my books on this topic and address it more fully at a later time.

Tangential, but perhaps fundamental: What do you believe about authorship of the four canonical Gospels?

[Thermo]

I have to go attend to work duties (it's reading day at the mall and the schools are supposed to show up--stuuuupppiiiidddd, why I can't I have my Saturday OFF?), but I will get out my books on this topic and address it more fully at a later time.

I am working, too. I am configuring routers, firewalls and switches for work.


Tangential, but perhaps fundamental: What do you believe about authorship of the four canonical Gospels?

I believe in historical analysis of the bible to get at what our best guess is of Jesus' actual words. I do believe in the theory of the gospel of Q. I like to read AN Wilson and Crosan. I don't believe the four Gospels are the only gospels since we have the gnostic gospels and the authors had ulterior motives in writing them.

[Thermo]

I posted this in another thread and meant to post here.

Paul isn't as bad as I remembered. He basically says, hey its good to be celebate, but if you can't do it get married rather than live a lie.

http://biblegateway.com/passage/?se...31;&version=31;
Corinthians 7:8-9
8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Obviously, the modern catholic church has ignored Paul's direct advice and chosen that celebacy is a requirement not an option. The result is a massive number of actively gay priests.

http://www.reformed.com/pub/rc.htm
[17] In Mt. 19:12 Jesus Christ teaches that celibacy is voluntary. In 1 Cor. 7:8-9 Paul says that celibacy is a gift. If people are having trouble controlling their sex drive, they should get married. “In one of the very few studies based on hard data—1,500 interviews between 1960 and 1985—Maryland psychologist Richard Sipe, a former priest, concluded that about 20 percent of the 57,000 U.S. Catholic priests are homosexual and that half of them are sexually active. But since 1978, Sipe believes, the number of gay priests has increased significantly; other therapists think the true figure today may be closer to 40 percent” (Kenneth L. Woodward, “Gays in the Clergy: Homosexual Priests,” Newsweek, Feb. 23, 1987, p. 58).

[Biff_Loman]

I think I'm developing an e-crush on Eileen.

Eileen: hey, don't sweat it, I develop crushes easily and get over them easily.

[Eileen]

I think I'm developing an e-crush on Eileen.

Eileen: hey, don't sweat it, I develop crushes easily and get over them easily.

Nah, I don't sweat it. I'm flattered. If people get crushes on me, I don't generally hear about it (and can be generally--probably somewhat intentionally--oblivious about it), so it's nice to hear sometimes. :)



Paul isn't as bad as I remembered. He basically says, hey its good to be celebate, but if you can't do it get married rather than live a lie.

Right on.

Paul's context is something like this: He believed that the Kingdom was at hand. He probably thought that the second coming would come in his lifetime, and so there was little point to procreation. Mainstream Jewish thought at the time was that sex was simply for procreation. Since there was no point to try to procreate, since the world was going to end shortly, there was no point to having sex....


Aaaaaannnddd.....

In Roman society, sex was a playing-out of power dynamics. Homosexual behavior was common between masters and slaves. That was not all that controversial in and of itself--it was natural for the master to penetrate the slave. What would be scandalous would be the slave penetrating the master, because that would put the master beneath the slave in a power relationship.

The same thing obviously applies to women also. Men were more powerful than women, and it was seen to play out NATURALLY in the act of sex.



So, when early Christians were baptized, something similar to Galatians 3:27-28 was recited. "In Christ there is ... neither male nor female." Sex works to engender a person, period--but particularly, it worked in Roman culture to engender and either empower or surpress the power of individuals--sex made people SOCIALLY UNEQUAL. Herein lies the first Christian issue with sex and the body.


Getting back to Thermo's post, Paul did claim that celibacy was the way to go (for some of these reasons that I've mentioned) but that if it was necessary, marriage could be a good thing. The reason it could be good is that it could keep a Christian from sinning. Better to have sex with one's wife than with a prostitute. It kept lust in check, hopefully. So, you could have sex within marriage if it kept you from falling prey to lust, but you really weren't supposed to enjoy it. Later on, St. Augustine would write "On the Good of Marriage" (I think that's the title) that expands on this idea.



--I actually should have started out by asking what Jesus's "family values" are in the Bible... it can be terribly shocking and uncomfortable to find out.

--And here is a link to a wiki about Authorship of the Pauline epistles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Pauline_epistles


:rolleyes: I'm lecturing--you know you're a teacher when... I'm hoping that once I make these assertions, someone will either contest them or discuss them...

[C.J.Woolf]

Good lecture, Eileen. I first encountered those ideas in Elaine Pagels' Adam, Eve, and the Serpent. All of her books are worth reading, if you haven't already.

[Thermo]

http://www.worldandi.com/newhome/public/2004/april/mtpub2.asp

Fusing Greek Philosophy with religion...maybe more INTPs will be interested with this.

[Eileen]

Good lecture, Eileen. I first encountered those ideas in Elaine Pagels' Adam, Eve, and the Serpent. All of her books are worth reading, if you haven't already.

Pagels is hot! ;)

Actually, it was one of my texts for a class I took on Christianity and the construction of gender. We only had to read a couple of chapters, though, so at some point I'll get around to reading the whole thing. My good friends are reading some of her books at our church (the one I don't get to go to now because I"m two and a half hours away these days) and discussing them. I am terribly envious!

[Lee]

Wow :blink: this is all way beyond me with my meagre knowledge of religions, previously I have only been interested in religion from a more sociological perspective (avoiding facts). But this is really quite interesting, even if I am having difficulty keeping up.

[Thermo]

Another Paul passage in Acts I have always wondered about is....

"11When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in human form!” 12Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker. 13The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates because he and the crowd wanted to offer sacrifices to them."

Obviously at face value a bunch of Greeks thought the "Apostles" were gods. I always felt like there was something more to this passage.

[Thermo]

I remember the passages that made me despise Saint Paul as only a hedonist and epicurian can!

Corinthians
5:1 It is said, in fact, that there is among you a sin of the flesh, such as is not seen even among the Gentiles, that one of you has his father's wife.

5:2 And in place of feeling sorrow, you are pleased with yourselves, so that he who has done this thing has not been sent away from among you.

5:3 For I myself, being present in spirit though not in body, have come to a decision about him who has done this thing;

5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you have come together with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,

5:5 That this man is to be handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may have forgiveness in the day of the Lord Jesus.

5:6 This pride of yours is not good. Do you not see that a little leaven makes a change in all the mass?

5:7 Take away, then, the old leaven, so that you may be a new mass, even as you are without leaven. For Christ has been put to death as our Passover.

5:8 Let us then keep the feast, not with old leaven, and not with the leaven of evil thoughts and acts, but with the unleavened bread of true thoughts and right feelings.

5:9 In my letter I said to you that you were not to keep company with those who go after the desires of the flesh;

5:10 But I had not in mind the sinners who are outside the church, or those who have a desire for and take the property of others, or those who give worship to images; for it is not possible to keep away from such people without going out of the world completely:

5:11 But the sense of my letter was that if a brother had the name of being one who went after the desires of the flesh, or had the desire for other people's property, or was in the way of using violent language, or being the worse for drink, or took by force what was not his, you might not keep company with such a one, or take food with him.

5:12 For it is no business of mine to be judging those who are outside; but it is yours to be judging those who are among you;

5:13 As for those who are outside, God is their judge. So put away the evil man from among you.

[Thermo]

You told me you wanted to talk about Saint Paul. I thought I posted some good quotes, but you threw me away for other threads. I am very very hurt. :(

[Eileen]

I do. It's just the school week and it's hard for me to commit to threads that I have to get out my books to do. :) Also, if I pursue this thread, I will get totally wrapped up with it and I won't do the work I have to do at home. I am still interested; I just have to wait till later in the week.

[Eileen]

Alright, Thermo, to be honest I have no idea what you want me to respond to. If you're going to post scripture, you interpret it and I'll respond. You say that those passages make you "despise Saint Paul as only a hedonist and epicurian can" but you offer no annotations to explain that position.

I will say this: hedonism and epicurianism have never had any rightful place in Christianity. That much is obvious.

[Star Cannon]

According to David Icke, the conspiracy theorist person who wrote "the Children of the Matrix" and a whole barrel of other books...

Christianity is nothing but a cult based on the worship of serpents and sexual imagery.

I;m going to sum it up in a nut-shell: Icke says that religion was fabricated as an mind control thing.

I myself think the celibacy of the catholic church is to create dysfunctional individuals.

[Eileen]

According to David Icke, the conspiracy theorist person who wrote "the Children of the Matrix" and a whole barrel of other books...

Christianity is nothing but a cult based on the worship of serpents and sexual imagery.

I;m going to sum it up in a nut-shell: Icke says that religion was fabricated as an mind control thing.


I refer you back to the original post in which I requested this parameter of discuission:


I would like to set up one very specific parameter: It is okay to argue that there is use of mind control or brain washing; that assertion is fine, but you should substantiate that statement with evidence from history, dogma/doctrine, theology, scripture, structure, and leadership.

So far, there's little to no substantiation, just one really random criticism and then an unsubstantiated summary of someone making the claim that there is mind control/brainwashing. This is a very simple argument to make and requires little, if any, critical thinking or actual knowledge.



I myself think the celibacy of the catholic church is to create dysfunctional individuals.

In general, people do not start up religions simply to damage human beings. It may happen as a result, but people get involved with religion or other spiritual endeavors in order to find truth. The early Christians were trying to find truth; whether YOU think they found it is irrelevant--they were seeking it. Celibacy in the Catholic church may lead to dysfunctionality, but the INTENT is and was for people to be like God and to eliminate the politics of sex in which one person is more powerful than the other. I won't deny that it has caused problems, but I will deny that the intent of it is TO cause problems.

[Lee]

According to David Icke, the conspiracy theorist person who wrote "the Children of the Matrix" and a whole barrel of other books...

Christianity is nothing but a cult based on the worship of serpents and sexual imagery.

I;m going to sum it up in a nut-shell: Icke says that religion was fabricated as an mind control thing.

I myself think the celibacy of the catholic church is to create dysfunctional individuals.

David Icke says lot's of things, most of which are not worth listening to.

[Thermo]

Alright, Thermo, to be honest I have no idea what you want me to respond to. If you're going to post scripture, you interpret it and I'll respond. You say that those passages make you "despise Saint Paul as only a hedonist and epicurian can" but you offer no annotations to explain that position.

Ok.


I will say this: hedonism and epicurianism have never had any rightful place in Christianity. That much is obvious.

Why is Jesus always eating or doing food related miracles then? Personally, I think Jesus probably liked to get drunk once in a while. I will have to think about proving that.

[songbird36]

Historically and currently, Catholicism is wrought with body and sex issues. These issues manifest themselves in the following ways (and perhaps more): possibly sexual neuroses and/or misconduct; celibate ascetic and clerical lifestyles; early renunciations of sex within marriage (no longer common); gender roles in the church; gender roles in marriage; anti-birth control, abortion, and homosexuality stances (these are all related); Eucharist (has interesting implications for the body); reverence for the Blessed Virgin Mother; family values; and probably more that just aren't coming to me right now.


If you have studied/read up on this topic (whether it's the body and sex in Catholicism, Catholic theology, Church history, or whatever), what have you read?

Not only was Paul a self hater, but he was a rampant misogynist as well. He thought that women's flesh was a form of spiritual and intellectual corruption for right thinking men. I have no doubt that he developed these ideas through his association with the Corinthians who had similar ideas.

[Eileen]

Ok.



Why is Jesus always eating or doing food related miracles then? Personally, I think Jesus probably liked to get drunk once in a while. I will have to think about proving that.

Aside from the wedding at Cana (a miracle Jesus did somewhat begrudgingly), Jesus's food miracles were about feeding the hungry (I include the Eucharist in that body of miracles), not about indulging and eating/drinking just for the sake of eating/drinking.

[Eileen]

Not only was Paul a self hater, but he was a rampant misogynist as well. He thought that women's flesh was a form of spiritual and intellectual corruption for right thinking men. I have no doubt that he developed these ideas through his association with the Corinthians who had similar ideas.

You can definitely see misogyny in Timothy, but that's one of the most contested of the epistles in terms of authorship. If you look at verses from the Corinthians against verses from the Timothies, there are some subtle and important differences. This is not to say that Paul was not sexist, because I think he often was in spite of himself and his beliefs about Christ's impact on the Christian body, but in Timothy (can't remember which one right now), the author prattles on and on about how women have no right to teach and should stay quiet, and in one of the Corinthians, the author insists that women wear headcoverings... while prophesying and teaching. Pretty important difference, I'd say. Both Corinthians are undisputed as far as authorship, and the Timothies are very disputed. That's not to say that the Corinthians don't have their icky misogynistic-seeming moments, though.