Do rapists and murderers go to heaven?

[CreativeChaos]

I just read this statement by Corporate Whore, and it started me thinking. A lot of religious people get some sense of satisfaction that there will be justice in "the after life". Because, of course, justice not always served in this life. There are so many unjust things that happen. People do get away with murder. What do you think about when you think about that happening? Would you not wish justice to be served? Don't you think that "theoretical" murderer, deserves punishment? What in the world IS this sense of justice that we have anyway?

[alex]

Title's question: Supposedly if you were to join the club after doing some raping, you'd still get to hang out and have potluck suppers in a city of gold.


People do get away with murder. What do you think about when you think about that happening?Depends who murdered whom.


Would you not wish justice to be served? Don't you think that "theoretical" murderer, deserves punishment?What do you mean by "theoretical murderer"?



What in the world IS this sense of justice that we have anyway?
I think it's a more complex defense mechanism. If something has caused harm in the past and we were unable to stop it then, we may band with others to destroy it because it is probably a threat to other members of the community. Or maybe by ourselves if we see ourselves stronger than the victim (eg. young or old family members, friends, etc.)

[Geoff]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Depends upon your theology, if you believe in a heaven, what the answer is.

If you ask a catholic, a divorcee will burn in hell yet a multiple murderer who says 'sorry' will have eternal paradise.

I find that kind of twisted.

-Geoff

[Architectonic]

Well if we are talking about rape and murder in the deliberate sense, then I don't believe they should go to heaven, regardless of whether they confess/have faith afterwards or not.

But I don't believe in heaven anyway, I as believe it is a entirely selfish concept.

[Thermo]

A lot of religious people get some sense of satisfaction that there will be justice in "the after life".

A more interesting question is Why would an all loving God send those murders and rapists to hell for eternity without chance for redemption?

[Shai Gar]

noone goes to hell for eternity without a chance for redemption, bar the chihauha. but that dog spawned from hell even before satan fell

[Aryan]

Everything that comes from human is the work of humans !
It ultimately depends on what we think and doesnt actually matter whether a god, or heaven or hell, or ... exists or not, happens or not, etc.

So if you are thinking something, i guess its what you are thinking, and not what really is!
Especially in matters like this.

[CreativeChaos]

Title's question: Supposedly if you were to join the club after doing some raping, you'd still get to hang out and have potluck suppers in a city of gold.

Depends who murdered whom.

What do you mean by "theoretical murderer"?


I think it's a more complex defense mechanism. If something has caused harm in the past and we were unable to stop it then, we may band with others to destroy it because it is probably a threat to other members of the community. Or maybe by ourselves if we see ourselves stronger than the victim (eg. young or old family members, friends, etc.)

Hmmm... I've read through these posts and maybe I should clarify my thoughts. I was trying to get at "what is justice?" Justice has been a part of all relgions and all cultures. We use pleasure and pain to train our children, even if that pain is purely emotion, like witholding our approval.

But what of those who do committ horrible atrosities and get away with it? The "theorectical murderer" is someone who commits a horrible crime, let's say he/she tortured and then finally murdered someone, and was never found out. We can only "theorize" because we of course would not know about these murders. Yet we know they happen, because we find the corpses, but not the murderer.

I think alex's last commint was very good. It is a complex defense mechanism for society. We are "social animals" and have to live as a society. So certain deeds must be punished, and stopped. But what if you knew you could get away with something? What about those who know they can murder and get away with it? Some religious thinking is that "well at least God knows and they will get their just reward". Well, if you are atheist, like myself, you do not believe this person gets his just reward. So, dosn't that bother you?

When you are watching a movie, like the "General's Daughter" where the woman was gang raped, but the father had her not say, because it would ruin the armies image. But he was found out in the end. What if the movie plot left us where the bad guy never gets caught? Wouldn't that be very disturbing?

[Aryan]

If God sent murderers to hell, then all our patriots and martyrs would be in hell ? Wouldn't they ?

I agree with Alex, (nice point Alex)! thats its a more complex defense mechanism for social animals like us.

[mgb]

Actually, Christian religion provides the way out of everything. The only sin you go to hell for is suicide because it's the only one you can't repent from.

There is a pretty long history of the Catholic Church letting people buy their way out of purgatory, which is actually how Luther got his idea to take on the Church (and make them prove that they in fact ran purgatory).

If you believe in that stuff, Jesus died for our sins, including murder.

I believe that the idea of an afterlife is an effective tool for keeping the masses at bay, because it might be shitty in this life, but don't worry, the afterlife will be amazing.

[Biff_Loman]

If the murderers kill the rapists, and the rapists rape the murderers, 's' all good.

[Arioch]

If the murderers kill the rapists, and the rapists rape the murderers, 's' all good.

Hmm.. but if the rapists rape the murderers before they murder then they might be justified for murdering the rapists.

However if the murderers murdered the rapists before they raped then we have zombie killers on the run and few people actually want that.

Maybe we should... aha! The solution is for the rapists to rape the murders who wil then murder the rapists and then the murders will murder themselves and everyone can just go to hell!

Everyones happy

[jimkopelli]

The solution is for the rapists to rape the murders who wil then murder the rapists and then the murders will murder themselves and everyone can just go to hell!


Wouldn't that fall under double suicide, causing them to both go to hell anyway?

[Edmond Zedo]

I believe that the idea of an afterlife is an effective tool for keeping the masses at bay, because it might be shitty in this life, but don't worry, the afterlife will be amazing.
Y'all got that right. (Don't tell the religionnaires.)

[Edmond Zedo]

I just read this statement by Corporate Whore, and it started me thinking. A lot of religious people get some sense of satisfaction that there will be justice in "the after life". Because, of course, justice not always served in this life. There are so many unjust things that happen. People do get away with murder. What do you think about when you think about that happening? Would you not wish justice to be served? Don't you think that "theoretical" murderer, deserves punishment? What in the world IS this sense of justice that we have anyway?
I think it would be absolutely hilarious if there were only Satan and the most vicious sinners and nonbelievers were doomed to eternal pleasure, while the pious got to haul rocks around. Hilarious, but sad in a way.

[Falling Star]

Actually, Christian religion provides the way out of everything. The only sin you go to hell for is suicide because it's the only one you can't repent from.


you can repent as your falling down the side of the building.

[Architectonic]

I believe that the idea of an afterlife is an effective tool for keeping the masses at bay, because it might be shitty in this life, but don't worry, the afterlife will be amazing.

Really? what an insightful comment.

May I also add that it is a somewhat selfish concept. - It is ME who goes to heaven or hell based on my actions (or I guess family members in some religions). To me it is a way of keeping those who would otherwise be morally challenged at bay.

Apparently knowledge that your own actions are just and that you are not harming anyone else is not good enough, they need some selfish reward or punishment to keep them from sin.

But unfortunately the sword cuts both ways - people may become athiests (or worship the devil or whatever) and therefore believe that heaven and hell don't apply and it does not matter if they sin. Further, there are those who believe that if they confess or become reborn, then their injust sins will no longer matter. Therefore there is the possibility of those who may be content with injust actions. (provided they are not caught)

I think instead people should concentrate on the REAL effects of their actions in their own lifetime and beyond.
But I guess many people are empathetically and morally challenged.....

[Architectonic]

you can repent as your falling down the side of the building.

Repenting your sins doesn't really count until after you have sinned. The sin is the actual moment when you die, as opposed to the attempt. Or is attempted suicide a sin also? :huh:

[earwax]

Repenting your sins doesn't really count until after you have sinned. The sin is the actual moment when you die, as opposed to the attempt. Or is attempted suicide a sin also? :huh:

No, the sin is in the thought...

Matthew 5:28 "But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

I can't believe I actually looked up a bible scripture. :eek:

[Geoff]

The thought is also a necessity for sin in the law too (Mens Rea). At least criminal law, anyway.

-Geoff

[CreativeChaos]

Hmmm... I've read through these posts and maybe I should clarify my thoughts. I was trying to get at "what is justice?" Justice has been a part of all relgions and all cultures. We use pleasure and pain to train our children, even if that pain is purely emotion, like witholding our approval.

But what of those who do committ horrible atrosities and get away with it? The "theorectical murderer" is someone who commits a horrible crime, let's say he/she tortured and then finally murdered someone, and was never found out. We can only "theorize" because we of course would not know about these murders. Yet we know they happen, because we find the corpses, but not the murderer.

I think alex's last commint was very good. It is a complex defense mechanism for society. We are "social animals" and have to live as a society. So certain deeds must be punished, and stopped. But what if you knew you could get away with something? What about those who know they can murder and get away with it? Some religious thinking is that "well at least God knows and they will get their just reward". Well, if you are atheist, like myself, you do not believe this person gets his just reward. So, dosn't that bother you?

When you are watching a movie, like the "General's Daughter" where the woman was gang raped, but the father had her not say, because it would ruin the armies image. But he was found out in the end. What if the movie plot left us where the bad guy never gets caught? Wouldn't that be very disturbing?

Gee! I wish people would respond to this more. I just put heaven in as a lark. I really wanted to see a discussion of justice. And what do you think about the lack of it. The title of this was just a larky example.

[melancholeric]

Gee! I wish people would respond to this more. I just put heaven in as a lark. I really wanted to see a discussion of justice. And what do you think about the lack of it. The title of this was just a larky example.
If you want discussion of justice, why mention heaven or hell? Religion, particularly Abrahamic religions have nothing to do with our concept of "justice".

Now Christians come and argue that we can't understand "divine justice" and "God works in mysterious ways".

Go read Leviticus and see what's gods definition of justice. Stoning stubborn children to death and other equally humane rules...

[CreativeChaos]

If you want discussion of justice, why mention heaven or hell? Religion, particularly Abrahamic religions have nothing to do with our concept of "justice".

Now Christians come and argue that we can't understand "divine justice" and "God works in mysterious ways".

Go read Leviticus and see what's gods definition of justice. Stoning stubborn children to death and other equally humane rules...

Because heaven and hell (or some dirivitive therof) are the ways most people deal with the lack of justice in this world. However, since a lot of you, including myself are aethists, how do YOU deal with injustice?

(Now I wish I had never put heaven in the thread title. I'd change it if I could.)

[CoHo]

The title of this was just a larky example.

larky?!

[CreativeChaos]

larky?!

Heh! You know! As a lark. A joke. Off the cuff. Just for fun. :devil: I AM atheist, you know.

[earwax]

Because heaven and hell (or some dirivitive therof) are the ways most people deal with the lack of justice in this world. However, since a lot of you, including myself are aethists, how do YOU deal with injustice?

(Now I wish I had never put heaven in the thread title. I'd change it if I could.)

Sorry, I tend to take questions at face value. ;P

It's true, I don't believe in heaven or hell. And justice (or lack thereof) is an interesting question. Wish I had an answer...

Heard a lot of theories...
"What goes round comes round",
"The measure you give is the measure you shall recieve"...

Don't see much evidence to support them.