Not caring about people?

[SolitaryWalker]

How do you go about concealing the fact that you dont care about those you're environed by and maintain contact strictly to further your impersonal goals?

How does this strategy ensure cooperation of others that you need to receive?

[Madrigal]

Were you hugged as a child?

[puzzled-observer]

How do you go about concealing the fact that you dont care about those you're environed by and maintain contact strictly to further your impersonal goals?

How does this strategy ensure cooperation of others that you need to receive?

I think this is more of the ENTP's shtick. I'm not very good at pretending to care.

[SolitaryWalker]

I think this is more of the ENTP's shtick. I'm not very good at pretending to care.

Neither am I, I am trying to learn.

Advice?

[helium]

How do you go about concealing the fact that you dont care about those you're environed by and maintain contact strictly to further your impersonal goals?

I don't, and it's charming. Other people think this way too. Rather than pretend I'm not engineering a situation to meet my needs, I tell other people how I do it and why. It's genuine and normal. What's funny is I'm now better at it than some of the other types who knew they were doing it all along but who never questioned it.



How does this strategy ensure cooperation of others that you need to receive?

Hiding it will not ensure cooperation. It will make you look foolish.


Were you hugged as a child?

He's not still? I am under the impression that he has hope.

[MacGuffin]

How do you go about concealing the fact that you dont care about those you're environed by and maintain contact strictly to further your impersonal goals?

How does this strategy ensure cooperation of others that you need to receive?

This post makes me think of one of three things:

1) severe emotional retardation
2) sociopathic tendencies
3) autistic spectrum disorder

[Jennywocky]

If you don't actually feel positive emotion (i.e., help others want to reach their goals or have general feelings of goodwill/kindness), you can take the schtick of "rub my back and I'll rub yours."

Many people do operate that way, and actually that's how basic networking works. Some people in your network genuinely like you, others are amenable to saying, "Hey, I am a resource for you, and I expect you to be a resource for me when I need it." Not a hard-ass agreement, just a casual, "Hey, let's be mutual benefactors."

Some people are fine with that sort of relationship, and you don't have to pretend to 'care' more than you do. Also, Helium's right in the sense that pretending you care when you don't often can be figured out, and then you just come off as a manipulator.

As far as "ensuring" cooperation? Well, you can't ensure anything, to be honest. Other people choose to help you or deny you, so you're rather stuck.

If you're interested in maintaining amiable professional relationships:
(1) Don't lecture or give them information that is irrelevant to their current need.
(2) Don't pretend you know more than they do, or try to show them up.
(3) Don't feel like you have to know the answer if they come to you; if you can't help, just say, "I wish I could help you, but I don't know the answer" and point them to someone else, if you can.
(4) Treat them with respect.

Mostly common sense relational stuff, actually.

[SolitaryWalker]

I don't, and it's charming. Other people think this way too. Rather than pretend I'm not engineering a situation to meet my needs, I tell other people how I do it and why. It's genuine and normal. What's funny is I'm now better at it than some of the other types who knew they were doing it all along but who never questioned it.



Hiding it will not ensure cooperation. It will make you look foolish.



He's not still? I am under the impression that he has hope.

I prefer to be blunt and let them know my business is strictly impersonal.

Yet with certain SFJs this just wont fly. They wont bend to any degree. You either act in a way they want you to act, or they refuse the cooperation should they be given a chance.

Our approaches are very similar, and they tend to be successful notwithstanding a few SFJ dominated radically conservative environments.

Now that is what I want to have this skill for, as nothing else works. Just like my ESFJ mother used to say 'who needs your truth or honesty just be pleasant, thats all anyone would everwant from you. Nobody cares about any of that stuff, its all moot.'

[SolitaryWalker]

If you don't actually feel positive emotion (i.e., help others want to reach their goals or have general feelings of goodwill/kindness), you can take the schtick of "rub my back and I'll rub yours."

Many people do operate that way, and actually that's how basic networking works. Some people in your network genuinely like you, others are amenable to saying, "Hey, I am a resource for you, and I expect you to be a resource for me when I need it." Not a hard-ass agreement, just a casual, "Hey, let's be mutual benefactors."

Some people are fine with that sort of relationship, and you don't have to pretend to 'care' more than you do. Also, Helium's right in the sense that pretending you care when you don't often can be figured out, and then you just come off as a manipulator.

As far as "ensuring" cooperation? Well, you can't ensure anything, to be honest. Other people choose to help you or deny you, so you're rather stuck.

If you're interested in maintaining amiable professional relationships:
(1) Don't lecture or give them information that is irrelevant to their current need.
(2) Don't pretend you know more than they do, or try to show them up.
(3) Don't feel like you have to know the answer if they come to you; if you can't help, just say, "I wish I could help you, but I don't know the answer" and point them to someone else, if you can.
(4) Treat them with respect.

Mostly common sense relational stuff, actually.

.
Treat them with respect.

This is an integral part of radical Ti ethic endorsed by helium and myself. A few certain SFJs may disagree, especially the folks I'll need to pretend to care about.

.
(3) Don't feel like you have to know the answer if they come to you; if you can't help, just say, "I wish I could help you, but I don't know the answer" and point them to someone else, if you can..

This is projection. I am surprised I am hearing this from an INT...This is rare among even INTs with a low self-esteem. So on that note your claim is not relevant.

The reason I would answer their question is not because I care about them but because this may help me work through my thought experiment. I'd prefer to think about it privately, yet if I think that walking it outloud will help me figure something out I will take advantage of the opportunity. But you have a good suggestion. Saying this


.
("I wish I could help you, but I don't know the answer" and point them to someone else, if you can..

Is one way to convince them that you care about them (by acting as they want you to), as you seem to intend that as a polite reservation. To add to that it would be prudent to purposefully hold back even if you do know the answer as this tends to be more consistent with their rituals. The most important part is not what you say, but rather how you say it. You have to make sure you do it exactly as they want you to. This tends to be very difficult to reconcile with anyone who has an inner being of some kind. Accomplishing this is the salient question of the Opening Post. One that seems to have eluded your scope.

(2) .
("Don't pretend you know more than they do, or try to show them up...

Thats projection. Recall how used to tell me that when you were young, you had a terribly low self-esteem and that is why you had to convince others of your cleverness. A sound INTP will share knowledge to further his thought-experiments, what others think of him will hold very little weight.

(1) .
("Don't lecture or give them information that is irrelevant to their current need.

This is a good advise.

All of your points are sound, if you abide by them, you likely will succeed at SFJs cooperating with you. Though my problem is not only to receive their cooperation, but also stay true to my internal agenda. You have not shown how the latter and the former could be reconciled.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

When I say I want to learn how to pretend to care about people, I do not imply that I care about noone. What I imply is the obvious. Certain people, like the aforementioned SFJs will not have a close relationship with me yet will insist that I act like I care about them. I do not think that caring about them is fitting at all, as they themselves dont even expect me to, they just want to see their ritual fulfilled.

As for my take on not caring about people, the following scenario will resemble that of what many other INTPs here have going on.

I care deeply about one person...2-3...more..on a moderate level...a few more..only very slightly...the rest I keep around almost exclusively for the sake of furtherance of my impersonal interests.

So, no this is not, by any means a protestation against 'caring about people' in general. Moreover, genuinely caring about those people is not likely to aid your cause as they want to be 'cared for' in one particular way. Your way will likely be unacceptable. So, no I am not asking how I can care about people, I dont have a problem with that,what I have a problem with is figuring out how I can do their ritual the 'right way'.



Many people do operate that way, and actually that's how basic networking works. Some people in your network genuinely like you, others are amenable to saying, "Hey, I am a resource for you, and I expect you to be a resource for me when I need it." Not a hard-ass agreement, just a casual, "Hey, let's be mutual benefactors.".

Thats just too easy. The situation you seem to have in mind is one that I wouldnt even bother asking for help about. Thats the one you could easily get around with your radical T ethic. Most off balance 'SFJs' will not agree to this.

.
" Not a hard-ass agreement, just a casual, "Hey, let's be mutual benefactors.".

You're definitely onto something. Though when you deal with such people I envisage, I dont think it would be okay to say 'hey i am resource for you when you need me, and vice versa', because in the eyes of such SFJs it does not create the proper image of you caring about them. Unless of course you could say it properly, then they wont even pay attention to what you said. So, my question is---how do you say it 'properly'?

[Karl]

I think I do mostly care about people. That's definitly subservient to some other things though, like being able to be independent. If I have my independence taken away by someone, sometimes I have to stop myself from not viewing them as a person.

edit:

If you don't actually feel positive emotion (i.e., help others want to reach their goals or have general feelings of goodwill/kindness),

I usually have the "reality is now more logical/useful/efficient/better/etc" feeling. Which isn't a happy feeling, but it's usually a self supporting feeling. Although if I really like someone I can be very altruistic. That's only true with... two people, I think.

[SolitaryWalker]

I think I do mostly care about people. That's definitly subservient to some other things though, like being able to be independent. If I have my independence taken away by someone, sometimes I have to stop myself from not viewing them as a person.

How do you manage to show it to SFJs in a way they want to see it. What you will give them will not be recognized as 'genuine caring' unless it is presented the way they want it.

[Jennywocky]

Note, first of all, that the post I was responding to was very general in nature and didn't specify SFJ types.


This is projection. I am surprised I am hearing this from an INT...This is rare among even INTs with a low self-esteem. So on that note your claim is not relevant.

What? You have completely lost me.

Part of growing up is learning when to stop walking around with an intellectual chip on one's shoulder. You're not an intellect, you're a human being with some intellectual resources. If you don't know the answer, tell them you don't know the answer; bs'ing your way around will lose you respect in the long term.

(If I misunderstood this, forgive me... but people who can't admit the limits of their knowledge really have a rough time ahead of them.)


The reason I would answer their question is not because I care about them but because this may help me work through my thought experiment. I'd prefer to think about it privately, yet if I think that walking it out loud will help me figure something out I will take advantage of the opportunity. But you have a good suggestion. Saying this is one way to convince them that you care about them (by acting as they want you to), as you seem to intend that as a polite reservation.

Actually, I don't have any ill will towards people and actually like to help them, if I can. Only people who are overly dependent or intrusive annoy me, but it's nice to actually be able to contribute to someone else's situation. (Sort of like me taking time to answer your post, now that I think of it, even though you usually annoy the hell out of me with your over-rationalizations.)


To add to that it would be prudent to purposefully hold back even if you do know the answer as this tends to be more consistent with their rituals. The most important part is not what you say, but rather how you say it. You have to make sure you do it exactly as they want you to. This tends to be very difficult to reconcile with anyone who has an inner being of some kind. Accomplishing this is the salient question of the Opening Post. One that seems to have eluded your scope.

If my advice is useless to you, please feel free to ignore it.

However, the difficulty you have with people becomes more and more clear to me, the longer you talk. You're making this a lot harder than it has to be, on yourself and others.

Basically the rule of thumb is, "Just act like a normal human being."




Thats projection. Recall how used to tell me that when you were young, you had a terribly low self-esteem and that is why you had to convince others of your cleverness. A sound INTP will share knowledge to further his thought-experiments, what others think of him will hold very little weight.

Ah, gee... SW, SW, SW.

I don't know whether to despise you or laugh at you.


All of your points are sound, if you abide by them, you likely will succeed at SFJs cooperating with you. Though my problem is not only to receive their cooperation, but also stay true to my internal agenda. You have not shown how the latter and the former could be reconciled.

Maybe, if you stretch yourself a little, you can be creative and find a way to twist things around and get it to work for you.


When I say I want to learn how to pretend to care about people, I do not imply that I care about no one. What I imply is the obvious. Certain people, like the aforementioned SFJs will not have a close relationship with me yet will insist that I act like I care about them. I do not think that caring about them is fitting at all, as they themselves don't even expect me to, they just want to see their ritual fulfilled.

I get the feeling you've always got a few specific SFJs in mind that you tend to generalize into anyone with Fe as a dominant factor in their personality. That's a shame. Most of your generalizations simply aren't indicative. You should step outside your situation, it's really clouding your judgment of others and making it difficult for you to learn how to cope.


I care deeply about one person...2-3...more..on a moderate level...a few more..only very slightly...the rest I keep around almost exclusively for the sake of furtherance of my impersonal interests.

So, no this is not, by any means a protestation against 'caring about people' in general. Moreover, genuinely caring about those people is not likely to aid your cause as they want to be 'cared for' in one particular way. Your way will likely be unacceptable. So, no I am not asking how I can care about people, I dont have a problem with that,what I have a problem with is figuring out how I can do their ritual the 'right way'.

I'd be more concerned with caring about people appropriately, rather than learning how to attempt to manipulate a few SFJ types who you're forced to deal with currently, who you can't make headway with. If they're truly dysfunctional, there's no point in dealing with them, you'll never win. I'd worry more about getting your head straight for the "general world" and getting out there into the real world ASAP.


Most off balance 'SFJs' will not agree to this.

Stop expecting to have a deep connection with off-balance SFJs. That's your first mistake. (Well, besides over-intellectualizing everything as a method of control.) Take what you can get out of them, and let the rest go.


You're definitely onto something. Though when you deal with such people I envisage, I dont think it would be okay to say 'hey i am resource for you when you need me, and vice versa', because in the eyes of such SFJs it does not create the proper image of you caring about them. Unless of course you could say it properly, then they wont even pay attention to what you said. So, my question is---how do you say it 'properly'?

In my most significant relationship, I can't even say I learned to play off the ISFJ. Her demands and my demands were at odds. She had to change, and I had to change in order to make any sort of connection. I doubt there is anything you can do if the SFJ is unreasonable. Because nothing you do will ever make them happy. It will always come off as fake, because you won't be emotive enough, or "concerned" enough, or spontaneous enough in your comments of love and caring. They're looking for something to a large degree that you cannot give, and have to learn to accept your approximation as a sign you care.

Of course, if you don't care, I wouldn't even bother. I'm not really interested in telling you how to relate to people you don't really give a damn about, and who you want to somehow manipulate to get what you want from them. You're twenty, right? If it's your mom or other relatives you're forced to live with, get out of the house as soon as you can, and then you don't have to put up the pretense. It's a waste of time, right now, until you get enough space to see clearly what "normal/healthy SFJs" are like... and when you're dealing with dysfunctional/unreasonable people, they'll drag you down like a drowning animal if you try to engage too closely.

[Karl]

How do you manage to show it to SFJs in a way they want to see it. What you will give them will not be recognized as 'genuine caring' unless it is presented the way they want it.

Either I don't do it, or or I try to be polite and thank them when they do something for me. (edit: Oh, and moving a box for them or something goes a long way) Most SFJs I've seen aren't TOO picky about this, although there's some SJs who'll always think you don't appreciate them if you don't obey them in every way. For those people there's not much you can do. The way I see it, it's their insecurity and they need to fix it or it'll stay that way.

[Spartan26]

Neither am I, I am trying to learn.

Advice?Love you enemies. Seriously, go out of your way to help improve the lives of people you can't stand or who are really against you and you'll be surprised at the greater appreciation shown to you and how much you'll appreciate the "marginal" people around you.

If you don't really have the opportunity to do this, because honestly, most of my life I've been w/out people I hate, just smile at people and ask them two or three things about them or their day. It's little but really it's part of the conditioning behavior that'll make you actually give a sh#t about others.

#3 just be polite. That's all I ever want out of anyone anyway.

[Zephyrus055]

SW,

Is there anyone in this world who you give a shit about, feel emotionally invested in, and would pay a rather high cost to help them?

I know, for example, I do not care much for my family. However, I would go through a great deal for those who are my friends. They are the replacement of my family, and they are people I can actually communicate with.

[SolitaryWalker]

SW,

Is there anyone in this world who you give a shit about, feel emotionally invested in, and would pay a rather high cost to help them?

I know, for example, I do not care much for my family. However, I would go through a great deal for those who are my friends. They are the replacement of my family, and they are people I can actually communicate with.

Go back and read this more carefully.

This thread is not about 'how to care for people in general', but about how to deal with severely neurotic SFJs you're bound to professionally.

And I believe your question has been answered in my second partof the response to Fortunato.

[SolitaryWalker]

Either I don't do it, or or I try to be polite and thank them when they do something for me. (edit: Oh, and moving a box for them or something goes a long way) Most SFJs I've seen aren't TOO picky about this, although there's some SJs who'll always think you don't appreciate them if you don't obey them in every way. For those people there's not much you can do. The way I see it, it's their insecurity and they need to fix it or it'll stay that way.


I am afraid this is not an option in the situation, I've envisaged because you're bound to those people professionally.

[Karl]

I am afraid this is not an option in the situation, I've envisaged because you're bound to those people professionally.

I don't know your people, but there's some people it's impossible to please without fully submitting your individuality to them, and even then there'll be some discontent.

Unless you're a skilled manipulator, there's not much you CAN do in that situation.

Hard to say anything more without knowing your SFJs.

[helium]

Let me set my record straight, since my name's been invoked a couple of times. :)

I'm all for being bluntly honest. I don't tell someone I care if I don't, not even just to make peace. Nevertheless, I think using SFJ or any other label to excuse oneself from being civil is childish. I mean, it's easy to preempt anyone with a genuine compliment. Just pick something. Surely you can say, "I noticed that you did your hair differently today," or "My computer comes in the same shade as your handbag." Whatever.

Here's the tricky part. You need to smile. Don't get toothy and stupid. Just smile however you feel like smiling. Trust me. Wry smile? Fine. Happy smile? Great. I'm smiling at you because I don't have to hate you because I can use you instead? Perfect.

Now, will you run into some royal assholes that are simply going to fuck your day up? Yes. But you can minimize those without faking, without being impolite, without pretending to care, all while caring about what you're investing in yourself.

[SolitaryWalker]

Unless you're a skilled manipulator, there's not much you CAN do in that situation.

Hard to say anything more without knowing your SFJs.


Yes, exactly the situation I am dealing with requires that you be one. That is why I am asking for advice.

[SolitaryWalker]

Let me set my record straight, since my name's been invoked a couple of times. :)

I'm all for being bluntly honest. I don't tell someone I care if I don't, not even just to make peace. Nevertheless, I think using SFJ or any other label to excuse oneself from being civil is childish. I mean, it's easy to preempt anyone with a genuine compliment. Just pick something. Surely you can say, "I noticed that you did your hair differently today," or "My computer comes in the same shade as your handbag." Whatever.

Here's the tricky part. You need to smile. Don't get toothy and stupid. Just smile however you feel like smiling. Trust me. Wry smile? Fine. Happy smile? Great. I'm smiling at you because I don't have to hate you because I can use you instead? Perfect.

Now, will you run into some royal assholes that are simply going to fuck your day up? Yes. But you can minimize those without faking, without being impolite, without pretending to care, all while caring about what you're investing in yourself.

I always want to be blunt. I derive much gratification from knowing the truth and speaking the truth, I am uncomfortable when I dont stay loyal to that maxim.

I hate Fe cant. Yet, with the SFJs I am dealing with, you have to express just the kind of the cant they want to see in order to get their cooperation. I am afraid this wont work


Here's the tricky part. You need to smile. Don't get toothy and stupid. Just smile however you feel like smiling. Trust me. Wry smile? Fine. Happy smile? Great. I'm smiling at you because I don't have to hate you because I can use you instead? Perfect..

Because its just too general, they will want to see a more specific way of emoting. What I am trying to do is figure out what kind of cant they want to see and how to convince them that ive bought into it, without being untrue to myself.

[Karl]

Yes, exactly the situation I am dealing with requires that you be one. That is why I am asking for advice.

So you want to know how to be a good manipulator? Well, first step is to start viewing other people as less than human and more as commodities to be used at your disposal. Have I lost you yet? I hope so.



Because its just too general, they will want to see a more specific way of emoting.

Any idea what they want?

[SolitaryWalker]

So you want to know how to be a good manipulator? Well, first step is to start viewing other people as less than human and more as commodities to be used at your disposal. Have I lost you yet? I hope so.?

That goes against my principles. What I want to accomplish is somehow prevent them from knowing that I am buying into their rituals without being dishonest. And I really dont like to lie. Becoming a good manipulator wont work for me. I need to pull off a subtlety here---making no effort to deceive them, but somehow appearing in line with their rituals. This isnt a form of dishonesty because rituals are what they are, just behaviors to be carried out. I want to know how I can figure out what they want to see and do one of the following

(1)avoid the rituals without losing their cooperation
(2)perform them without compromising my principles



Any idea what they want?

Thats exactly what I am trying to figure out. Their rituals are radically subjective.

[helium]

I always want to be blunt. I derive much gratification from knowing the truth and speaking the truth, I am uncomfortable when I dont stay loyal to that maxim.

Being blunt and speaking truth are different beasts. And I was pretty specific about all the ways you can smile to convince someone that you're paying attention (it's all of them, by the way, though paying attention works even better). You don't have to buy into anything; you don't have to like what a person says to get along with him; you don't have to violate your principles. Of course, not pretending to be a computer helps too. I mean, if you're going to put on an act, put on a good one.

[Karl]

Thats exactly what I am trying to figure out. Their rituals are radically subjective.

That'd be a starting place. You cant buy into their rituals to please them (now doesn't that like a nice and altruistic reason even though it's not?) if you don't know what their rituals are. And if it's difficult to figure them out when you know them in person, I expect it's impossible for a third party to figure it out over a web forum.

I'll be interested if anyone here comes up with a solution though.

[SolitaryWalker]

That'd be a starting place. You cant buy into their rituals to please them (now doesn't that like a nice and altruistic reason even though it's not?) if you don't know what their rituals are. And if it's difficult to figure them out when you know them in person, I expect it's impossible for a third party to figure it out over a web forum.

I'll be interested if anyone here comes up with a solution though.

Now my problem is after I have figured them out is---abiding by them just to please them is explicitly against my principles. What I need is a way to get around their rituals. Or somehow carry through with them without going against the grain of who I am.

[Spartan26]

I was thinking about this a little at work. I'll have to look back but did you say specifically what it is you really have problems with? I work w/a couple of ESJ's and there's a communication problem. Of course I don't like to explain what I feel is obviously. They need everything spelled out. I get really upset that they can't seem to follow the simplest dots.

I feel micromanaged when I do this. It especially sux because neither are my boss. I don't really know the best way to deal w/them. Trying to explain things sometimes takes too much time/energy. I don't like listing things out then that sets a precedent in their mind of how things are always supposed to work. Why create my own prison, eh? One thing I can do is give two scenarios and then let them choose. But generally it's two choices that I wouldn't have a problem w/either. Like, "I was going to call them and have them re-invoice. Unless you think I should just hold it until it comes due?" If I were to say something like "Hey, what do you think I should do about this invoice?" and leave an open option and THEN try to explain...Oh please, forget it.

But telling people what you're planning to do before hand then they might do the same for you and that might open up communication. You do this enough people start asking you what you're doing. That could create space for you. Look for things you can do independently. They tend to hate that stuff and if they see how productive you are at it they'll start feeding you more.