School Segregation

[Dman]

This is based upon something I read in the news today.

It’s a fair assumption to say that we all have a right to a decent, fair education, particularly if we have to pay taxes for it.

However, what’s the story with certain areas, say with large Hispanic populations in the US for example, and white parents moving their kids out of public schools that are becoming predominantly Hispanic and into other public schools with a larger ratio of whites?

There are arguments that it is essentially becoming a “segregated” school system. The claim by white parents is that schools with large Hispanic populations tend to have much slower learning systems and thus poor educational qualities due to the non-english speaking students. This is backed up by school test score averages.

So is the US public school system effectively creating and/or contributing to a sub-class of people? The Hispanic kids are Americans too, and their parents pay taxes, don’t they deserve the same quality of education? Or is it their problem.

I’m trying to be objective, but personally, I wouldn’t send my child to a school with poor performance issues, regardless of what the cause was. Sadly, I do believe that due to the non-english speaking students and cultural barriers, my child would be at a huge disadvantage going to a school with a large Hispanic population. Is that racist? Is it "right" to move kids to a different school district because of this?

[garak]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Flight

I think money is a large part of it. White people make more money on average, and so predominantly white schools are bound to be "better." That's how it is where I live, and I live in freaking Iowa. The schools in my ~100k pop. city have a reasonable minority population, and they are "ok" schools. The schools in the ~30k pop (much whiter, and richer) town next door are "nicer." Although they're also full of snobs, but I guess that is predictable.

I don't really see how it's anyone's "fault." People tend to stick with people similar to themselves; it's just human nature. Look at us and our little INTP haven.

[Boneca]

I don't really see how it's anyone's "fault." People tend to stick with people similar to themselves; it's just human nature. Look at us and our little INTP haven.That's interesting. If there was a school for only NT's, wouldn't we send our children there (provided they were NT's too)? I bet we would, and we wouldn't care at all if it would lower the standard of normal schools.

It is quite a moral issue though. Is it right to let your child suffer in order to be less egoistic?

[Geoff]

I am not sure I would want to segragate my children on MBTI type (if I had any!). I think they are best exposed to the full breadth of human society. I would prefer them to be familiar with all kinds so that they can then function in the multi type environments (work etc) later that they will have to cope with!

I suppose an ideal situation would be a mixed school for type but where some types were selected for different learning methods.

-Geoff

[Eileen]

This is a big issue.

We don't have segregated schools--nominally. But it is interesting how districts are drawn. I teach at a school that is no less than 60% black, 5% hispanic, and the rest caucasian. It's a poor, low performing school. The kids have no school pride at all. It's really (excuse my NFness) heartbreaking. All these years later, I wonder what our little black children would say when given that psychological test in which they are told to label black and white dolls "good" or "bad."

My county will potentially be separating our three high schools into specialized schools for academics, occupations, and technology. All would have a default college track for all students, I think. It may be a postive thing, but it will be a logistical nightmare... and I really fear that almost all of the black boys in the county are going to end up at the occupational school, and that this is just a thinly veiled "white flight" opportunity.



I really feel that the problem of slow learning systems isn't schools having high percentages of minority students. Instead, one problem is having not enough teachers and too many very large classes. The smaller the class, the easier it is to allow students to work at their own paces and achieve to their best ability. The larger the class, the more the teacher has to keep up with in terms of grading and dealing one on one with students. Also, classroom management of 30 kids is a WHOLE LOT different than classroom management of say, 18-24. That has a lot to do with learning, too. Another problem is what has already been mentioned--money. Schools should be funded equally, but they are not. This is visible in my county.


Ugh, there is so much more to say, but I don't have the energy to say it. I am very much an idealist when it comes to education, and I am very unwilling to let go of that. But so frequently, I see it used as a way to maintain this dysfunctional way of living and relating to each other rather than as a way of growing and changing the world. Our black boys are in serious trouble; I see it every day, and it's very frustrating. They need to see that education is a way for them to change their situations, but I can only imagine that it's very difficult to see that right now. Their needs just are not being addressed and they KNOW that they are going to an inferior school. This is horrible because it is unjust, but I believe that also, it will only cause problems for everyone else, because if the drop out rates of these young black men keep increasing, so will their incarceration rates. It's bad for the economy and for relations between Americans.


I know this is a rambling, incoherent mess. Sorry.

[Boneca]

I am not sure I would want to segragate my children on MBTI type (if I had any!). I think they are best exposed to the full breadth of human society. I would prefer them to be familiar with all kinds so that they can then function in the multi type environments (work etc) later that they will have to cope with!

I suppose an ideal situation would be a mixed school for type but where some types were selected for different learning methods.

-GeoffMy analogy obviously didn't work on you. Which, I suppose, is a good thing. If everybody thought like you, the issue with segregated schools wouldn't exist (because poor hispanic kids are certainly a part of human society too).
Now's the only problem that a lot of people don't think that way.

Edit; Eileen, I understand your dilemma. I would feel the same way if I were in your situation, as T-ish insensitive as I am. However, I am glad that at least somebody cares about this situation - indifference is the worst enemy.

[Geoff]

I actually went through the state school system here, but one that practices segregation on intelligence. It's a grammar school system. So at the age of 10/11 you take some exams and the top 10% are so are sent to the grammar school. And the remaining 90% are sent to secondary modern school. The grammar school (which I was sent to) was single sex (boys, obviously). It is a mixed blessing. If you are very able then being surrounded by a talented peer group is a great thing. It worked for me. If you were on the border then being bottom of the class all the time, when in a full spectrum system you would still be in the top, say, 15% must suck.
My area is so white and traditional that the grammar school -selecting purely on exams without knowledge of type/background/culture/colour (the marking was anonymous)-that out of a 1,000 students there must have had less than 10 who were not traditional white caucasian.

-Geoff

[Dman]

I actually went through the state school system here, but one that practices segregation on intelligence. It's a grammar school system. So at the age of 10/11 you take some exams and the top 10% are so are sent to the grammar school. And the remaining 90% are sent to secondary modern school. The grammar school (which I was sent to) was single sex (boys, obviously). It is a mixed blessing. If you are very able then being surrounded by a talented peer group is a great thing. It worked for me. If you were on the border then being bottom of the class all the time, when in a full spectrum system you would still be in the top, say, 15% must suck.
My area is so white and traditional that the grammar school -selecting purely on exams without knowledge of type/background/culture/colour (the marking was anonymous)-that out of a 1,000 students there must have had less than 10 who were not traditional white caucasian.

-Geoff

That sounds cool, but the problem with intelligence is that it can be measured in such a way as to promulgate the problem. The kids coming from poor or difficult backgrounds are not going to be getting the same level of education as others, so when the "intelligence" tests roll around, these kids don't do well, and get shoved to the bottom.

That's the problem here. The kids that need the most help and the most resources are the ones receiving the least. The kids not speaking english need more time invested to bring them up to speed ASAP in order to have the same opportunities. Yet it is the privileged kids in the wealthier neighborhoods that get the bulk of the resources and the new books, computers, etc.

And it's easier for us who are educated and better off to understand this, which is why we move our kids to the better schools. The newly migrant parents and/or uneducated parents do not understand this, and so the cycle continues...another contribution to the gap between the wealthy and poor

[Eileen]

I suppose an ideal situation would be a mixed school for type but where some types were selected for different learning methods.

-Geoff


The problem I see with this (and this assumes that I am actually getting what you're saying) is that while everybody has learning preferences and it's good for teachers to differentiate instruction to meet those preferences, it's very, very important that students are given opportunities to learn in the ways that they don't prefer so that they can develop their abilities. This is why I give group work often. I HATED it when I was in school, but learning to work in a group is a really, really important skill. And challenging visual learners, for example, to learn via auditory presentation (with the help of visual aides or graphic organizers) can teach them to THINK in a different way. A lot of people really look at learning preferences all wrong, in my opinion. It's important to differentiate so that you appeal to AND challenge individual learners. Kids would do well to learn to examine the world in a variety of ways, rather than what is simplest for them.

[Geoff]

There is no easy win of course. The grammar/secondary modern system has largely disappeared in the UK. i was lucky (?) enough to live in one of the last few places in the UK that it remains. Most of the UK runs a comprehensive system much akin to the mixed sex state high school system in the US.

Advantages to both, but I enjoyed the standard of kids I schooled with from 11 to 18. i was never exposed to drugs, very few fights, the strugglers holding the school back. I do fully accept that the strugglers were never exposed to the high fliers either, so it is entirely selfish of me to see the experience as a plus. My sister who did not 'make' grammar school no doubt suffered reduced expectations for her school examinations as a result of having an underperforming peer group. What can you do?

-Geoff

[Geoff]

The problem I see with this (and this assumes that I am actually getting what you're saying) is that while everybody has learning preferences and it's good for teachers to differentiate instruction to meet those preferences, it's very, very important that students are given opportunities to learn in the ways that they don't prefer so that they can develop their abilities. This is why I give group work often. I HATED it when I was in school, but learning to work in a group is a really, really important skill. And challenging visual learners, for example, to learn via auditory presentation (with the help of visual aides or graphic organizers) can teach them to THINK in a different way. A lot of people really look at learning preferences all wrong, in my opinion. It's important to differentiate so that you appeal to AND challenge individual learners. Kids would do well to learn to examine the world in a variety of ways, rather than what is simplest for them.

Yes, that is indeed what I meant. I would like to see children typed and encouraged to learn in a system that works for them. I do passive learning (simply just reading and memorising) so much better than, say, an interactive group session. I can do both, but the reading is faster for me. I can see how certain children would benefit from a choice of systems. You would need a big school to be able to cater to these choices however.

-Geoff

[Eileen]

Yes, that is indeed what I meant. I would like to see children typed and encouraged to learn in a system that works for them. I do passive learning (simply just reading and memorising) so much better than, say, an interactive group session. I can do both, but the reading is faster for me. I can see how certain children would benefit from a choice of systems. You would need a big school to be able to cater to these choices however.

-Geoff

Yeah, but my point was that a situation like that could lead children to become overly dependent on the "easy" method of learning for them, rather than stretching themselves and practicing thinking in different ways. So what I was trying to assert was not that we should give children a choice of learning systems (which would look like, I guess, a classroom with all intrapersonal learners) but that we SHOULD have a mix of students who all think and learn in different ways in order to promote growth. (What my county is doing--this high schools of choice thing--is about choosing a career track, so they'd be choosing their curriculum, not their learning style preferences--though I'm sure there's some correlation there).

[Geoff]

Ah yes, I hadnt really thought this through, as I only teach adults, and mix between one and one highly technical discussion - like a highbrow 'intellectual' learning, through to public speaking in a presentational style. So I dont reallly know about the 'kids' stuff.

Perhaps you are right, people should challenge their preconceptions on learning so that they can live in a rounded world. But then you must set against it the need to make the best of your skills. How do you propose setting a balance between someone who learns best by reading, and poorly in a group... do you force them to group so that they learn group even though they lose out on the opportunity to learn by book?
I dont know the answer...

-Geoff

[Eileen]

Perhaps you are right, people should challenge their preconceptions on learning so that they can live in a rounded world. But then you must set against it the need to make the best of your skills. How do you propose setting a balance between someone who learns best by reading, and poorly in a group... do you force them to group so that they learn group even though they lose out on the opportunity to learn by book?
I dont know the answer...

-Geoff

In my ideal classroom--which currently doesn't exist for a number of reasons, including this is my first year of teaching, I suck at classroom management, AND I have no classroom of my own to manipulate as I see fit--there would be a great deal of choice and a GREAT, GREAT deal of assessment of learning styles. The main way I balance those individual needs now is by giving them multiple opportunities to learn the same material. And as a high school English teacher, I teach concepts (irony, cause and effect, etc), not individual works, so I can do different activities with different works that appeal to different learners. It's basically all about making them work a whole lot. I could be doing this better, come to think of it...