Atheists do you want to not exist?

[CoHo]

I've always had a hard time with this question.

The concept of non-existence is frightening. It means that everything you have done, every action you take is truly meaningless. Sure you can build a legacy, you can even be famous and remembered with great fondness. But in the long run it doesn't matter. It won't matter because you wont exist to understand it.

Non-existence isn't floating around, it is the lack of sentience. You don't think, you don't hear, you don't see, smell, touch. You are nothing.

If we become nothing, why amount to anything at all? Or why even bother to exist in the first place?

I enjoy life, but I could easily sell everything I own and live for a month in pure drug induced ecstasy. Why not? If I'm going to cease why bother with the 8 hours of pointless work? Why strive to save up enough to go on that great vacation?

In Ringworld The Engineers the main character gets this implant called a wire. Basically it is a device that hooks directly to the pleasure sensor in his brain. Once people get this they pretty much die in a few months from starvation. They are so blissfully happy that they just let everything else disappear. To be honest, if I was offered such a device I don’t think I would say no.

I'm not going to include any suggestions about religion. I'm not suggesting that an after-life (especially those planned out in the top religions) are better alternatives. I just wonder what keeps you going if you know that eventually this will all cease to matter?

[garak]

The idea of non-existence scares me too, but what keeps me from blowing my head off in despair is:

1. life lasts a long time for most people, and probably will for me too
2. being alive is generally enjoyable

[cjs55]

Not a fullblown atheist but don't believe in an afterlife either...

If living for a month in drug-induced ecstacy is really better than the rest of the years of existence you may have for you, then I would say do it. But I don't buy that...human beings usually have something that drives them forward to exist, because of that drive you want to prolong said existence. For me, I don't think life is about happiness or sensory pleasure (although these things are great), I think its about wisdom and understanding. I on an extremely deep level enjoy this, it makes me want to continue living. If you have nothing at all like this to keep you going, I could see trouble...

The idea of non-existence doesn't bother me in the slightest (nor should it bother anyone). When you say that every action you take is truly meaningless...its not meaningless when you are in existence. And thats all there is. You seem to be implying that there has to be an end-game for our lives that makes everything worthwhile. Everything has to be worthwhile in and of itself, in our life, because thats all there is. In a sense, if you believe that after death we utterly cease to exist, life then becomes eternal to us and all that matters is ones psychic eternal living self...period.

So work may suck. But if its worth it to get other things in life, then do it. If its not, then don't. You'll figure it out one way or another. I wouldn't make any hasty decisions about inducing non-existence, but thats just because of the drive beneath my life that continues me...life is life.

[CreativeChaos]

I just wonder what keeps you going if you know that eventually this will all cease to matter?

The thought of non-existance does not bother me at all. I won't be there to miss it.

You are having difficulty seeing the meaning in everyday life. Don't you matter to your children, your loved ones, your spouse? It is how you affect those around you that makes a difference. Yes we, your spouse, your children, the suffering, will all be gone in 100 years.

BUT, YOU will have mattered to THEM. And THAT is what truly matters. That you have taken your life and made life easier for others in existance around you.

[Serotonin]

Sure you can build a legacy, you can even be famous and remembered with great fondness. But in the long run it doesn't matter. It won't matter because you wont exist to understand it.
That seems selfish. Of course you won't exist to see your legacy. But your children and children's children will.
And the amazing legacies we have already inherited from the dear departed are more than enough to satisfy the inquisitive mind. This quote I think sums it up:

"We shed as we pick up, like travellers who must carry everything in their arms, and what we let fall will be picked up by those behind. The procession is very long and life is very short. We die on the march. But there is nothing outside the march so nothing can be lost to it. The missing plays of Sophocles will turn up piece by piece, or be written again in another language. Ancient cures for diseases will reveal themselves once more. Mathematical discoveries glimpsed and lost to view will have their time again."
Tom Stoppard, Arcadia

[cjs55]

This is all interesting...I think this sort of issue is a result of a mixture both atheism and individulism seen in western culture. If we saw ourselves as more of a part of a whole, we would not have any concern with this. But instead we define things based on how they effect us, not on how they effect the whole (which I wouldn't just include humanity in, but all of nature).

But because of this individualism we keep destroying the world around us and then wonder why our lives are meaningless....

[CoHo]

I’ve been trying to think objectively about the concept of life for the last few years and I keep running into the same problem.

Just like these posts the main answers I find are:

Live for the greater good

I just don’t get it! I don’t consider myself selfish, but at the same time I don’t understand this whole “greater good” concept. Why even bother? If we are going to cease to exist and our children will cease to exist and eventually our planet will cease and with that our humanity then why bother? What’s the point to churn out generation after generation?

If the individual’s life has no purpose but to serve the greater good, why does a group of individuals suddenly have a greater good? What is that greater good?

Live for the now


For me, I don't think life is about happiness or sensory pleasure (although these things are great), I think its about wisdom and understanding. I on an extremely deep level enjoy this, it makes me want to continue living.

But just like you say cjs55 you enjoy wisdom and understanding. So it obviously makes you happy. Everything that you enjoy is enjoyable because it makes you happy. Doesn’t that mean that life is purely about achieving happiness?

[MasterMerk]

Eh? To me, nothing is beautiful. I'm not afriad of death, though I'm not exactly living with a gun against my skull.

Accomplishment is.. Odd. And being happy is not for me. I just want to understand things before I die, and maybe, spread some of the knowledge along.

[cjs55]

But just like you say cjs55 you enjoy wisdom and understanding. So it obviously makes you happy. Everything that you enjoy is enjoyable because it makes you happy. Doesn’t that mean that life is purely about achieving happiness?

No, wisdom and understanding does not necessarily make me happy, but it does drive my lifeforce, or rather, my wish to live. So when I said 'enjoy' before, I didn't mean happiness in the traditional sense, rather, a fulfilment of my life. There's a huge difference. I could be miserable but still be driven to live due to that.



I just don’t get it! I don’t consider myself selfish, but at the same time I don’t understand this whole “greater good” concept. Why even bother? If we are going to cease to exist and our children will cease to exist and eventually our planet will cease and with that our humanity then why bother? What’s the point to churn out generation after generation?

You don't need an end result. Life is the point of life, sort of paradoxically. Make your life or the life of others the best you can, and thats worth it in and of itself, even if everyone disappears and the universe collapses in on itself. We are part of an amazing ecology and planet (still amazing even though it will eventually be destroyed), and the fact that we are not in tune with that and thus our own life is not a natural state, but rather a result of the current philosophical thought spreading throughout humanity.

I just don't know what else to say. I find life is inherently worth living.

[cjs55]

I will admit, I have always disliked arguing this subject, because I don't think it can be decided with logic alone.

[Serotonin]

I think you have to go back further to the semantics of this argument.
i.e. What is meaning? What does the word mean?
It's a value judgement. Something can only mean something if it hints at a larger picture, if it warms the cockles of our heart. It's an emotive term.

Hence it is inherently human. Think about these words: "intent", "purpose" and of course "meaning". They can only be ascribed to complex biological life. The more complex, the greater the meaning (and guess where us humans are on the scale). It's not like a cactus has any existential angst. A rock has no "meaning" because it is not living, not sentient, not conscious. It does not have a purpose in itself. It's just there.
So (and here's my big contentious point) it is fatuous to ascribe "meaning" to a higher, spiritual level, because it ain't biological.

I worked this out a few years ago and have never had any existential misery since. :)

[songbird36]

I must say I've often wondered what meaning atheists are capable of deriving from their existence.

I'm not sure that hedonism is an end in itself, or that it is ultimately satisfying as a goal for one's life. I think as human beings with a highly evolved cerebral cortex we're not content simply to eat, sleep and fuck. We search for something higher and greater than that.

[Dunearhp]

Why be content with leaving this world in a in a bad state, just because there is nothing following. I always think of heaven and hell as being a form of bribery. Fear of hell can be a motivator for some people, but it is not a very positive motive. A fundie friend told me that the Salvation Army was formed after its founder had a vivid nightmare about hell. I don't know how accurate that is, but it did not sound like a very positive story to me.

Certainly I could be apathetic and act as if nothing matters. I choose not to.

I don't think that there are many truly selfless motives. Most people who act charitably, do so for the buzz that it gives them, or to ease their way into heaven. People like to feel good about themselves (generally).

Following through with your own choices can be quite satisfying. I think it is this satisfaction that I seek.

[Dunearhp]

I will admit, I have always disliked arguing this subject, because I don't think it can be decided with logic alone.

Logic is not a motive force. But you are allowed to make choices in a vacuum: your reasons don't have to be logical. It just helps if they are consistent.

I DON'T NEED A PURPOSE DAMMIT!

Sorry for shouting, it wasn't at you cjs55. I just want to make the point. The idea that we have or need a purpose is just an assumption.

[Architectonic]

That seems selfish. Of course you won't exist to see your legacy. But your children and children's children will.
And the amazing legacies we have already inherited from the dear departed are more than enough to satisfy the inquisitive mind. This quote I think sums it up:

"We shed as we pick up, like travellers who must carry everything in their arms, and what we let fall will be picked up by those behind. The procession is very long and life is very short. We die on the march. But there is nothing outside the march so nothing can be lost to it. The missing plays of Sophocles will turn up piece by piece, or be written again in another language. Ancient cures for diseases will reveal themselves once more. Mathematical discoveries glimpsed and lost to view will have their time again."
Tom Stoppard, Arcadia

Exactly.

All of our actions have a real and lasting effect on the rest of the world.

That to me is a very real afterlife....

[jimkopelli]

The thought of non-existance does not bother me at all. I won't be there to miss it.
Yes. Exactly. Would've taken some effort to have said it better. Won't bother.

What's that old saw.. about how "pleasure and happiness and comfort mean nothing if you don't have pain and sadness and suffering to compare them to."

I think it's fairly accurate... not really optimistic, but oh well.
I'd rather live life to the fullest, take it all in, and do something with myself (but not too much) than waste away on happiness. I think I'd get sick of it.

[s0978]

The idea of non-existence doesn't bother me in the slightest (nor should it bother anyone). When you say that every action you take is truly meaningless...its not meaningless when you are in existence. And thats all there is. You seem to be implying that there has to be an end-game for our lives that makes everything worthwhile. Everything has to be worthwhile in and of itself, in our life, because thats all there is. In a sense, if you believe that after death we utterly cease to exist, life then becomes eternal to us and all that matters is ones psychic eternal living self...period.

This is from the guy who was trying to annoy me just cause?

Oh, that's not what I meant to say. What I meant to say was that I found this to be a convincing and elegant thought preocess.

[songbird36]

I'd rather live life to the fullest, take it all in, and do something with myself (but not too much) than waste away on happiness. I think I'd get sick of it.

But why bother trying to "do anything" with yourself. What (or for whom) are you doing this for? For what purpose?

Why do anything in life at all, if there is no meaning apart from the basic elements of your daily existence. If that's the case then why *do* anything other than eat, sleep and have sex?

[Sir Isaac Lime]

An atheist can have faith, just not a faith in God(s).

Is it hard to imagine an atheistic yet optimistic and faithfull philosophy?

[MasterMerk]

songbird,

Are you implying that there has to be a long term end-result in order for something to have meaning?

Well, we do have an end-result. It's called death, and death is meaningless.

Life, It's not about hedonism, or happiness. It's just about personal experience, and that is ultimatley what everyone derives their own personal meaning from. Not death or anything afterwards.

[Darren]

I've always had a hard time with this question.

The concept of non-existence is frightening.

My honest advice to you: stop going down that road because there's nothing down there. Snap out of it and get to work. (Doing what? Why, whatever you want, of course).

Darren

[Darren]

I must say I've often wondered what meaning atheists are capable of deriving from their existence.

I'm not sure that hedonism is an end in itself, or that it is ultimately satisfying as a goal for one's life. I think as human beings with a highly evolved cerebral cortex we're not content simply to eat, sleep and fuck. We search for something higher and greater than that.

Sigh: atheists are just hedonists, who value nothing more than eating, sleeping, and fucking. I see.

Let me say that if you wouldn't be capable of anything more than that without religion, I feel sorry for you.

[CoHo]

I must say I've often wondered what meaning atheists are capable of deriving from their existence.

I don't consider an afterlife a reasonable alternative either. The concept of existing but with absolutely no purpose is ridiculous as well. I wouldn't want to have a happy and complete afterlife when it ultimately had no real meaning or impact on anything real.

I’d also like to keep religion and the religious out of this.

The reason why I ask this question isn’t for any morbid intentions. It is simply an observation. When I was in my teens I was invulnerable and the thought of death never brushed my mind. Into my twenties that feeling carried on where I would have this “Don’t worry about it” attitude.

I’ve asked plenty of people this question and I always get these responses. Now, even though some of you deny it, everyone appears to be simply living for happiness. I think I’m using the wrong word when I say happiness because it sounds like a flaky word. Physical pleasure, contentment, enjoyment, and appreciation are all levels of happiness.

Sometimes we do things that on the surface don’t appear to be that enjoyable. Like starting a difficult model, reading a book or learning a new language. But we do this because we know we will enjoy it in the long run. When we are finished we can look at it and think about all the work we did on that for some degree of contentment. We are basically creating sacred items that we can think back on and appreciate.

So how about this: Do we really live just for happiness?

[cjs55]

No, and I wanted to make this clear earlier: We live because we have a drive to live. Certain activities for people make this drive stronger. It has nothing to do with any emotion, pleasure or anything. It is not pain or suffering alone that results in self-nullification, but a mixture of that and as well the loss of the will to survive. Consider evolution and instinct, consider the drive to live and instinct as the same thing. We are animals, we are built to reproduce sure, but we've also evolved to the point of self-conscious examination that may require more than just that to spur on our will to live (I don't think everyone is this way neccessarily, but INTPs most certainly are more likely to be). That doesn't mean that we are no longer animals with base instinct, but rather thinking ones (with certain activities or thought as instinctual).




This is from the guy who was trying to annoy me just cause?

Oh, that's not what I meant to say. What I meant to say was that I found this to be a convincing and elegant thought preocess.
I agree, and thank you. See, I'm not so bad! ...(maybe)

[Darren]

I’ve asked plenty of people this question and I always get these responses. Now, even though some of you deny it, everyone appears to be simply living for happiness. I think I’m using the wrong word when I say happiness because it sounds like a flaky word. Physical pleasure, contentment, enjoyment, and appreciation are all levels of happiness.

So how about this: Do we really live just for happiness?

I do, yes. In my world view, there *is* nothing else, whether I like it or not.

[Dman]

Why do we continue? Instinct. It's for different reasons for different people (leave a legacy, for those we love, to make the world a better place, etc.) but it all boils down to the instinctual drive to live.


As for why not fall into a drug induced state, look around...lots already are...

[Lee]

If that's the case then why *do* anything other than eat, sleep and have sex?

Thats what everyone does, even non-atheists. Society is just an elaborate mechanism to achieve these three things, the truly happy and content are the ones who don't realise this. I would rather be religious, I would love there to be an afterlife but I doubt there is, all you can do is make the most of what you get as your not gonna even be capable of careing when it's over. :(

[jüri]

So how about this: Do we really live just for happiness?

Why do we continue? Instinct. It's for different reasons for different people (leave a legacy, for those we love, to make the world a better place, etc.) but it all boils down to the instinctual drive to live.

But isn't happiness just your instincts telling you that you're doing okay and so following this instinctual drive is the cause of happiness...

[floid]

All this existential angst is nothing but the frustration of trying to figure something out that you lack the means to figure out.

It's like dancing.
If you make a big issue of it, fume and sweat over it, think about every move you're going to make, you suck at it.
If you just sort of let go and move to the music everything works much more smoothly.
And, even if you still suck at it, you'll have much more fun doing it.

Maybe life is the same way.

Maybe it doesn't need a reason or purpose.

Maybe it just is.

Maybe you should just "let it be" as you watch it unfold from a front row seat right there behind your brain.

Sometimes the view is better if you don't have to look around your brain to see it, however.

[jimkopelli]

But why bother trying to "do anything" with yourself. What (or for whom) are you doing this for? For what purpose?

Why do anything in life at all, if there is no meaning apart from the basic elements of your daily existence. If that's the case then why *do* anything other than eat, sleep and have sex?
Who for? Me, and the people I feel like doing things for and with. Why? To pass the time between eating, sleeping, and having sex, and to make it easier to procure those three. Why do anything, if not merely to see exactly what I can do.

People are not flatworms. I like to think we're a bit more advanced than them... and can have a bit more fun in the process of life.

[Lee]

Maybe life is the same way.

Maybe it doesn't need a reason or purpose.

Maybe it just is.

Maybe you should just "let it be" as you watch it unfold from a front row seat right there behind your brain.

I tend to agree with you here.....but one thing is for sure, if we stop looking for reason or purpose we a certainly never going to find it, so I will endevour regardless......maybe that is reason or purpose in itself. :)

[Miss Anthropic]

So how about this: Do we really live just for happiness?
If I lived for happiness I'd have been dead years ago. But on the other hand, I don't live because I think that upon dying there will be some fabulous "reward" to be had for my suffering on earth. Regardless of what happens to us upon death we, as biological creatures, have a drive to live, reproduce, accomplish. (or as Song Bird so eloquently said, "Eat, sleep and fuck" or something to that effect. ) The accomplish part is what sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom. Some of us are merely less motivated about accomplishing part than others.....We live because we are supposed to.

[songbird36]

I see I stirred up the pot a bit with my earlier comment to the atheists.

What I meant to say is, obviously you all do more with your lives than eat, sleep and fuck, but my question is *why* do you do those *other* things? What motivates you? Let me suggest some possibilities:

#1 Hedonism - enjoyment is an end in itself;
#2 Responsibility - you are motivated primarily by "shoulds", including what you should do for others and what society expects;
#3 Purpose - You can see some underlying or higher purpose for your life that has nothing to do with God or religion

[mgb]

I think Nietzsche pronouncing God dead had a very profound effect. Since there was no God and no afterlife, things deteriorated pretty quickly. A lot of people associate Nietzsche with the Nazis because they picked up his ideas. Since then people like Leo Strauss (a Jewish holocaust survivor) have been strong advocates of right wing christian groups to keep people in order so that never happens again.

When you take God away the universe becomes enormous. Do our actions have a cosmic affect in the scope of the universe? Not at all. When the sun expands in a few million years, Earth will cease to exist and nothing you have done will matter at all for the rest of time.

So can life have a purpose with that in mind. The nice thing that the existentialist found out was that it can. In fact, to some extent you can live a much more rewarding life knowing that you will not be judged for every action you make. You can take gloriously long holidays without fear that too long a holiday is considered un-pious. You can do any job you wish. You can not work too. Sleep in on Sundays (one of the best perks). The life you live is yours to live, or yours to throw away. You can try and find meaning but you won't be able to. You can live a completely hedonistic life or a life of hard work. Either way, there is no penence.

[Lee]

I see I stirred up the pot a bit with my earlier comment to the atheists.

What I meant to say is, obviously you all do more with your lives than eat, sleep and fuck, but my question is *why* do you do those *other* things? What motivates you? Let me suggest some possibilities:

#1 Hedonism - enjoyment is an end in itself;
#2 Responsibility - you are motivated primarily by "shoulds", including what you should do for others and what society expects;
#3 Purpose - You can see some underlying or higher purpose for your life that has nothing to do with God or religion

I repeat this -

Society is just an elaborate mechanism to achieve these three things

[songbird36]

I think Nietzsche pronouncing God dead had a very profound effect. Since there was no God and no afterlife, things deteriorated pretty quickly. A lot of people associate Nietzsche with the Nazis because they picked up his ideas. Since then people like Leo Strauss (a Jewish holocaust survivor) have been strong advocates of right wing christian groups to keep people in order so that never happens again.

When you take God away the universe becomes enormous. Do our actions have a cosmic affect in the scope of the universe? Not at all. When the sun expands in a few million years, Earth will cease to exist and nothing you have done will matter at all for the rest of time.

So can life have a purpose with that in mind. The nice thing that the existentialist found out was that it can. In fact, to some extent you can live a much more rewarding life knowing that you will not be judged for every action you make. You can take gloriously long holidays without fear that too long a holiday is considered un-pious. You can do any job you wish. You can not work too. Sleep in on Sundays (one of the best perks). The life you live is yours to live, or yours to throw away. You can try and find meaning but you won't be able to. You can live a completely hedonistic life or a life of hard work. Either way, there is no penence.

Yeah I hear where you're coming from BUT you still haven't totally answered my question which was "what motivates you to do anything other than what you *need* to do for bare survival"? What drives you forward and gives you momentum in your life to study, work, have a satisfying career, have a family, develop interests, and all those other "add-ons"? What are you doing these things for?

I don't think this question is an oxymoron - I think it's something everybody at some point in their lives asks themselves, regardless of religious persuasion.

[Lee]

Yeah I hear where you're coming from BUT you still haven't totally answered my question which was "what motivates you to do anything other than what you *need* to do for bare survival"? What drives you forward and gives you momentum in your life to study, work, have a satisfying career, have a family, develop interests, and all those other "add-ons"? What are you doing these things for?

Sexual selection and those things that are not essential to survival can increase survival chances in the long term and hence we have evolved to act this way.

[booyalab]

Sexual selection and those things that are not essential to survival can increase survival chances in the long term and hence we have evolved to act this way.
this is illogical on many levels...
you're saying
A. We have developed some traits that we dont need
B. Traits that we dont need can sometimes be needed in other ways *dramatic rolling of eyes@the contradiction*
C. Therefore we developed those needless traits that we need

[Lee]

this is illogical on many levels...
you're saying
A. We have developed some traits that we dont need
B. Traits that we dont need can sometimes be needed in other ways *dramatic rolling of eyes@the contradiction*
C. Therefore we developed those needless traits that we need

A. Traits we don't need? depends what "need" means, do you mean in a purely survival sense?
B. Do you mean that some traits can have uses to which they did not origionaly develop for?
C.huh?

Sexual selection creates traits that appear to have no useful purpose.....but if they increase the chance of attracting potential mates then they achieve the true purpose that we exist for which is to pass our genes on to the next generation. The dynamic between sexual selection and natural selection creates many niche's in which humans find way to reproduce creating all sorts of behaviours that humans display that may appear to have no real purpose. (I bought a very interesting book on evolutionary psychology not long ago....it was very enlightening :) )

[Johnny]

I just don’t get it! I don’t consider myself selfish, but at the same time I don’t understand this whole “greater good” concept. Why even bother? If we are going to cease to exist and our children will cease to exist and eventually our planet will cease and with that our humanity then why bother? What’s the point to churn out generation after generation?

If the individual’s life has no purpose but to serve the greater good, why does a group of individuals suddenly have a greater good? What is that greater good?To be honest, I just don't get it either. You're not at all alone, to my understanding, CorporateWhore. When the glass is half-full of water, is it half-empty or half-full?

To my mind, you are finally realizing that you have in your hands a new key to another door to your psyche. Don't let your mind stop you from using that key because you don't know what's behind that door yet, but instead allow it to help you reach the door and get that key in.

Remember, your current projections will do nothing but hinder you. Life is a journey, not a destination. Just because the map you were using seems to end, that doesn't mean there's nothing left beyond that map to explore.

So while your're alive, keep exploring life!

[mgb]

Yeah I hear where you're coming from BUT you still haven't totally answered my question which was "what motivates you to do anything other than what you *need* to do for bare survival"? What drives you forward and gives you momentum in your life to study, work, have a satisfying career, have a family, develop interests, and all those other "add-ons"? What are you doing these things for?

I don't think this question is an oxymoron - I think it's something everybody at some point in their lives asks themselves, regardless of religious persuasion.

I really didn't know there was a question besides CorporateWhore's to answer. So I guess my answer to your secondary questions would be: You do those things because you want to or because you feel like you have to.

I also don't believe most people make those decisions. I believe they believe that those decisions are made for them because they are not cogniscent of the world around them enough to realize that they have a choice to make.

[booyalab]

A. Traits we don't need? depends what "need" means, do you mean in a purely survival sense?
B. Do you mean that some traits can have uses to which they did not origionaly develop for?
C.huh?

Sexual selection creates traits that appear to have no useful purpose.....but if they increase the chance of attracting potential mates then they achieve the true purpose that we exist for which is to pass our genes on to the next generation. The dynamic between sexual selection and natural selection creates many niche's in which humans find way to reproduce creating all sorts of behaviours that humans display that may appear to have no real purpose. (I bought a very interesting book on evolutionary psychology not long ago....it was very enlightening :) )

it makes only a little more sense this time around.....I think I was confused by the way you defined traits as being simultaneously useless and necessary.

But your conclusion was still spurious. Long term evolved traits (that initially just appeared useless) are obviously not subject to the smaller scale survival of the fittest principles (which are necessary for evolution to be real). If something is not born with the initially irrelevant traits, they're not going to die off because of it! You contradicted your conclusion with the earlier part of your statement. If there were to be long term evolved traits, they'd have to be a build up of shorter term evolved traits. There's no room for error.

[songbird36]

I really didn't know there was a question besides CorporateWhore's to answer. So I guess my answer to your secondary questions would be: You do those things because you want to or because you feel like you have to.

I also don't believe most people make those decisions. I believe they believe that those decisions are made for them because they are not cogniscent of the world around them enough to realize that they have a choice to make.

Maybe I thought that the initial question on this thread was an oxymoron. I'm sure Descartes proved several hundred years ago to the satisfaction of most rational beings, that we all exist by virtue of the fact that we have conscious thought:

"I think therefore I am" (a priori existence)

[Lee]

it makes only a little more sense this time around.....I think I was confused by the way you defined traits as being simultaneously useless and necessary.

But your conclusion was still spurious. Long term evolved traits (that initially just appeared useless) are obviously not subject to the smaller scale survival of the fittest principles (which are necessary for evolution to be real). If something is not born with the initially irrelevant traits, they're not going to die off because of it! You contradicted your conclusion with the earlier part of your statement. If there were to be long term evolved traits, they'd have to be a build up of shorter term evolved traits. There's no room for error.

The survival of the fittest principle creates sexual selection. Of course natural selection is where it begins and is dependent on the genes of the individual, those with better quality genes have a greater chance of survival*. Because we mix our genes with another human being we use our senses to decide which humans it would be most beneficial to mate with, thus creating attractiveness; as what we look like is of a result of and a reflection our genes. We find people attractive because those traits we find attractive reflect quality genes**, characteristics such as broad shoulders, strong jaw, sense of humour etc. This creates a situation in which the other sex (in this case women) evolve to look for those attractive traits becuase they increase the chances of offspring surviving and therefore genes surviving. This creates a strange reaction in the other sex (in this case men) in which those who are more likely to mate show characteristics that are considered attractive increasing these characteristics in future generations, the dynamic becomes self-reinforcing whereby "attarctive" traits develop beyond there survival advantage e.g. the peacocks tail. This situation creates many features of human behaviour that do not directly increase the likleyhood of survival and are instead a result of sexual selection.


*the term better quality genes is relative to the enviroment, this creates different races living in different parts of the world because the enviroments they evolved for are different.
** Becuase the enviroment is a complicated place, humans have developed many facets of attractiveness, some are more physical, some are more psychological and not everybody will be attracted to the standard norm.

[MonChat]

When you take God away the universe becomes enormous. Do our actions have a cosmic affect in the scope of the universe? Not at all. When the sun expands in a few million years, Earth will cease to exist and nothing you have done will matter at all for the rest of time.


There may be an assumption here that if the Earth ceases to exist then nothing 'you' have done will matter at all for the rest of time. I would like to suggest the possibility that space travel within the next 10,000 years may require you to reconsider this assumption.

[Eileen]

Theist alert. ;)

My qualification here is that I don't really know what I believe about the afterlife, so it's something I do think about from time to time.

The idea of nonexistence doesn't bother me at all because I figure, when I'm gone, the matter that is me will be something else, serving some other practical or abstract purpose. So I won't not exist. I just won't exist as I am right now.


*theist backs away quietly and pretends she never entered the atheists only thread*

[bdbthinker]

I never worry about death. I figure death will be a lot like the bazillion years that existed before I was born ;)

[Edmond Zedo]

"The dead know only one thing: It is better to be alive." FMJ

[songbird36]

Hey just to add something really deep and meaningful here, I just realized that the title to this thread is a split infinitive:

"Atheists do you want to not exist" instead of:
"Atheists do you want not to exist"

Do you realize the word "infinitive" is derived from the word "infinity"?

Hmmm....

[Eileen]

Hey just to add something really deep and meaningful here, I just realized that the title to this thread is a split infinitive:

"Atheists do you want to not exist" instead of:
"Atheists do you want not to exist"

Do you realize the word "infinitive" is derived from the word "infinity"?

Hmmm....

I'm teaching infinitives next week. I kind of like it better split though. The emphasis seems to fall on the "not" in the split infinitive version, which is really probably the most important word in the question.

[Dman]

I also don't believe most people make those decisions. I believe they believe that those decisions are made for them because they are not cogniscent of the world around them enough to realize that they have a choice to make.

"There are those who think that they've been dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them ---
They weren't born in lotus-land
All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate"

[Helios]

Well I wish I would have jumped in here earlier since this has died down now. CW I totally see your point. In fact this very subject has been lingering in the back of my mind since I was in Paris a few weekends ago when I was watching a show on the Sino-Japanese War, of coarse there was moutains of footage, and one image caught my imagination. Some older very poor Chinese woman, filmed around the time of the collapse of the Imperial Government. There she sat, on the ground doing some sort of work. For some reason I realized she wasn't just an image but she had been a REAL person, with likes,dislikes, I bet she loved someone, had a favorite food, and an opinion about the Emperor, etc,etc. Yet other than the random chance that she was filmed years ago NOTHING about her is left of remotely matters the anyone. Everyone she knew is dead, the whole world she knew is gone, Nothing about her means shit today and surely won't a 1000 years from now. In fact the same fact can almost be said about her Emperor even! It was terrible to think that in truth we are all that meaningless!

Pity us all if there is nothing more to life than this. I personally do not believe in "going to heaven" or hell, but I have to believe that there is something more to this. If there isn't how sad, lie to yourself if you like, but life is much more mundane or even unpleasant, than a burst of happyness worthy meaningless oblivion afterward.

I personally am not thrilled with the idea of something bigger ,all the more since I can't "see", understand and control it right now. But I have explored every type and sorta pleasure,duty and virtue I could think of in this life and yet have found none provide a meaning that balances the weightyness of life.

[bdbthinker]

Pity us all if there is nothing more to life than this. I personally do not believe in "going to heaven" or hell, but I have to believe that there is something more to this. If there isn't how sad, lie to yourself if you like, but life is much more mundane or even unpleasant, than a burst of happyness worthy meaningless oblivion afterward.


I don't understand this. Why does there have to be "more" for any of this to be meaningfull? I have a family and two children. They are meaningful to me.
I have things I like to do...they're only meaningful because of the meaning I and others put into them. Why does there need to be any meaning otherwise?

[cjs55]

Yeah, I don't see his point at all. Its hard to convince someone to be miserable I suppose =).

For me personally, I am comforted by the fact that I can cease to exist. Immortality is more frightening to me.

[SensEye]

Pity us all if there is nothing more to life than this. I personally do not believe in "going to heaven" or hell, but I have to believe that there is something more to this. If there isn't how sad, lie to yourself if you like, but life is much more mundane or even unpleasant, than a burst of happyness worthy meaningless oblivion afterward.If we presume the God hypothesis to be false, this sentiment probably explains why religion is so prevalent anyways.


But I have explored every type and sorta pleasure,duty and virtue I could think of in this life and yet have found none provide a meaning that balances the weightyness of life.I'd be surprised if "everything" included religion. One would think it would provide the exact kind of meaning you seem to be looking for. This doesn't have to mean Christianity, it could be Buhddism or what have you. Many of those eastern religions seem to be all about attaining a "higher state" as the meaning of life.

Personally, like some others, I'm OK with life being meaningless.