The tragedy of the INTP

[MacGuffin]

An INTP wrote this to me recently:

"The tragedy of the INTP: to survive as what you are, you must be something you are not."

It was qualified with the statement that this could apply to anyone, which is probably true.

Thoughts?

[Jennywocky]

An INTP wrote this to me recently:

"The tragedy of the INTP: to survive as what you are, you must be something you are not."

It was qualified with the statement that this could apply to anyone, which is probably true.

Thoughts?

iow, to keep the world from infringing on who you are, you have to create a 'buffer' self that is sort of a compromise between the true self and the outer world? (Or "Freedom is not free -- you need to pay for it.")

[MacGuffin]

iow, to keep the world from infringing on who you are, you have to create a 'buffer' self that is sort of a compromise between the true self and the outer world? (Or "Freedom is not free -- you need to pay for it.")
Yes, and I think all people do it. But is it bigger buffer for the INTP, or do we hate it more because we hate being "fake"?

[Jennywocky]

Yes, and I think all people do it. But is it bigger buffer for the INTP, or do we hate it more because we hate being "fake"?

I think some people are not bothered by it at all (they consider it part of life, like a suit of clothes they put on in order to attend a particular function).

Some other people consider such things to be duplicitous.

I suspect INFP might deal with it too, to some degree. I think INFJ and INTJ and your extroverted types are resilient enough to push back against the pressure, and Sensors normally live in the concrete world, so that generally means less distance between the internal self-image and the external expectations.

But INxP has an internal judging function that results in the creation of an internal sense of truth/ethics, and this is undermined by an outer intuitive flex. So when people push on the INxP, the tendency is to avoid conflict, maximize return, and FLEX... while internally the flex might easily run counter to one's truth/ethical system.

Which is why the INxP is constantly judging the self as deficient. ANd it is easier to withdraw and be alone (to avoid being forced to wear the external disguise) than it is to either push back and impose on others and/or allow oneself to constantly feel compromised.

That's my general guess.

[MacGuffin]

That's some good reasoning.

I think INFPs have it worse.

[MacGuffin]

Another thought: many of us try to allow ourselves to "be" our true selves. Is this a realistic goal?

Or like the quote, do we have to be something we are not to get along in this world?

[Jennywocky]

Another thought: many of us try to allow ourselves to "be" our true selves. Is this a realistic goal?

Or like the quote, do we have to be something we are not to get along in this world?

(And I won't even bother to ask how we determine what our "true self" actually is. ;) )

Compromise, like death, to some degree, is inevitable... just like the loss of innocence.

[Nighthawk]

I think INFPs have it worse.

Especially a male INFP ... each preference goes against what society states a man should be or do (at least in the USA). Society dictates that a man should be:

Outgoing and hard charging: (E)
Great at sports, mechanics, etc. (S)
A thinker, rather than a feeler (T)
Organized, with good follow through (J)

There you have it ... the ideal American male ... ESTJ. Coincidentally, they comprise a large portion of the population. The world was "made" for them ... or perhaps, they made the world in their image.

[Helios]

I was expecting some more like this:



The tragedy of Canada is that they had the perfect opportunity to enjoy French cuisine, British culture and American technology, and instead they ended up with British cuisine, American culture and French technology.

[mancroft]

That's some good reasoning.

I think INFPs have it worse.

I agree.

Totally unsuited to the modern world.

[Hexchild]

Another thought: many of us try to allow ourselves to "be" our true selves. Is this a realistic goal?

In my case, it was. At least from my own viewpoint I have done exactly that and ended up with a more than bearable life.

There are two areas, though, in which my life hasn't been very successful, and I do believe I would have done a lot better if I had allowed myself to be less genuine - my screwed up love life and my nonexistant sex life.

I still wouldn't want to change who I am, though, emotions and frustration be damned.

[Zephyrus055]

I don't agree with it. Aside from some basic social skills that I have had to learn, I am not constantly putting up a front and living a fake life in public. For the most part I enjoy living my life, and all I'm expected to do is earn A/B grades.

I also learned that I am allowed to be weired and can break most social rules, on condition that I show no weakness and do so shamelessly. Also, I learned that people respect honesty, and an easy way to disarm any hatred toward you is to get them to talk about themselves.

[Ptah]

Another thought: many of us try to allow ourselves to "be" our true selves. Is this a realistic goal?

Or like the quote, do we have to be something we are not to get along in this world?

The original quote and your "additional thought" is, to me, a semantic illusory puzzle without a solution; it rests on the interplay of loose/vague definitions/interpretations of "self", "get along", "world", "realistic", and so on.

I am not meaning to be critical of the speaker(s), only of the statements themselves as such.

[s0978]

An INTP wrote this to me recently:

"The tragedy of the INTP: to survive as what you are, you must be something you are not."

It was qualified with the statement that this could apply to anyone, which is probably true.

Thoughts?

S/he is a pessimist. Everybody has challenges, even SJs. Rising to them is what makes us who we are.

"woe is me," so cry me a river.

[Ptah]

S/he is a pessimist. Everybody has challenges, even SJs. Rising to them is what makes us who we are.

"woe is me," so cry me a river.

:theclap:

[MacGuffin]

S/he is a pessimist. Everybody has challenges, even SJs. Rising to them is what makes us who we are.

"woe is me," so cry me a river.
Heh, I think it was more crankiness dealing with extensive details than anything.

Like luggage.

;)

[rainfall]

Tragedy. :sobs:

[indie]

An INTP wrote this to me recently:

"The tragedy of the INTP: to survive as what you are, you must be something you are not."

It was qualified with the statement that this could apply to anyone, which is probably true.

Thoughts?

When I originally posted the Tragedy of NT Females (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=12516) thread, I was thinking more along this idea: the lines of professionalism -- will nobody ever get it; am I a "tragically" unemployable professional? Does being an INTP female doom me to a fate of underemployment and such for the rest of my life because I can't deal with most SJs? Dudes? (Hence and please notice that the Tragedy of NT Females post was originally posted in "MBTI Talk" ; not the "Relationships" Forum).

[Spartan26]

I don't know. I can see us being alienated by who we are. The problem or a problem can be is that when we are "healthiest" and most comfortable being who we are, we detatch away from society. So either way, same results. It's not like I've never asked the question, 'why can't I just be?' Though I've never gone into the whole 'no one ever understands me,' tailspin.

In an industry based on relationships, I know I have to be more ESxJ than I'd otherwise choose to in order to get the opportunities I want so I can live life as my nature INTP. But, I have a friend who I believe is an ESFP and she'll replay conversations in her head, well aloud, and worry about her social presence. She's quite outgoing and charming, very good at making lasting first impressions but she really wants to be liked. I just kinda want to clear the crossbar.

It's kinda funny, you want to relax and be yourself on dates. I'll tell myself don't get too relaxed. Be sure to keep your energy up. Don't let comfortable silence last too long.

I'll agree that you can't start too feel sorry for yourself but there's an opp to improve oneself when stepping out of the comfort area.

[Avengardh]

I don't think who you are is changed by having to adjust to the way your boss communicates, unless you do it for far too long and you become that.

The people who become something else in order to survive and believe they are what others see them as are weak imo.
INTPs have cores they must fight all of their life to keep intact, but that's just what I think.

[sinnamon]

I've lived life both ways: forcing myself to be something I wasn't for years working for lawyers in an environment that sucked every ounce of creativity from me every day. Then I became a teacher, & while it could definitely end up an environment where I might have to force myself into an uncomfortable false self, I pick my niche where I don't have to. I keep to myself & do things my own way & only come out of my cave (classroom) to interact with the people who are like me & who think like me.

The same follows for my marriages. First one was a complete disaster where I tried to be what I wasn't in order for it to work. The second time around I ended up with someone who insisted I be exactly who I am.

I would venture to say that people's happiness is fairly tied to how successfully they are able to create a life that fits their personality rather than the other way around.

[SolitaryWalker]

I think some people are not bothered by it at all (they consider it part of life, like a suit of clothes they put on in order to attend a particular function).

Some other people consider such things to be duplicitous.

I suspect INFP might deal with it too, to some degree. I think INFJ and INTJ and your extroverted types are resilient enough to push back against the pressure, and Sensors normally live in the concrete world, so that generally means less distance between the internal self-image and the external expectations.

But INxP has an internal judging function that results in the creation of an internal sense of truth/ethics, and this is undermined by an outer intuitive flex. So when people push on the INxP, the tendency is to avoid conflict, maximize return, and FLEX... while internally the flex might easily run counter to one's truth/ethical system.

Which is why the INxP is constantly judging the self as deficient. ANd it is easier to withdraw and be alone (to avoid being forced to wear the external disguise) than it is to either push back and impose on others and/or allow oneself to constantly feel compromised.

That's my general guess.

All of this is sound for the most part.



I think INFJ and INTJ and your extroverted types are resilient enough to push back against the pressure, and Sensors normally live in the concrete world, so that generally means less distance between the internal self-image and the external expectations..





INJs do have this same problem, however less of it for different reasons than you have suggested. They have less of a need to preserve their inner being because to them it is a form of amorphous continuous, internally focused perceptions. (Introverted Intuition.)

Their Extroverted Judgment does not make them more resilient, but by contrast forces them to conform more to the External agenda than the Extroverted Intuition of the INPs. Extroverted Intuition does press for some level of conformity, though not to a rigid standard as Extroverted Judgment does, but rather to some very general perceptions. Because of this, the INJs are often fraught with inner conflict--as their intense internal focus is countervailed by the need to conform of Extroverted Judgment.

Hence, INPs are less conformist than INJs for two reasons.

1)Introverted Judgment directs more energy inwards than Introverted Perception.
2)Extroverted Perception directs less energy outwards than Extroverted Judgment.

By these merits we can say that INPs are more internally focused than INJs. Introversion is the attitude that forces the world to conform to its inner agenda and thus non-conformist by definition. Extroversion is an attitude that assesses the inner being by virtue of the external standard, therefore for the sake of this thought experiment, we will be justified in regarding this function as conformist.

Since we have shown that INPs are closer in tune with Introversion than INJs, it follows that they are less conformist.

One interesting question arises as a result. ENs who are Extroverts are decidedly less conformist than ISs who are introverts. To remedy the problem we should not equate the term Extrovert with E in our type code, but with reliance on the External world. Sensors rely on the External world more than Intuitors because they depend on their immediate, concrete external environment more. In this respect, the ENs are more 'introverted' than ISs.

[SolitaryWalker]

That's some good reasoning.

I think INFPs have it worse.


INTPs have a more intense need for preservation of the inner being because they have a more intense internal focus. Thinking leads to a more intense inner focus than Feeling because it is a tough-minded function(less deterred by interfering factors. For this reason, more easily focused on its own introverted agenda, whilst Feeling can easily be interfused by foreign entities. Incidentally, we often observe INTPs being more commited to their principles than INFPs because the latter may lack confidence in their principles, therefore will require reassurance and may be much swayed by the wants of others. Whilst INTPs can retain confidence in their principles by virtue of their reasoning alone )--for this reason we are likely to observe a higher degree of internal focus in INTPs than in INFPs. Thus, in this respect INFPs are more conformist than INTPs.

INFPs have it worse because they lack the mental toughness and resilience that the INTPs rely on to plow through the undesirable elements. On this account, INTPs are able to stand their ground when necessary, yet INFPs fumble.

Thus, INFPs have less of a need to preserve their inner being, yet their faculties to preserve even that much are in lower proportion than the faculties of the INTPs to preserve theirs.

[PonderBee]

An INTP wrote this to me recently:

"The tragedy of the INTP: to survive as what you are, you must be something you are not."


Not necessarily tragedy - but ripe with the possibility for it.
To me the great riddle for aware INTP's is the impossible choice between self interest and self respect. Knowing the ingredients of the Kool-Aid do you drink it ... or, do you cut, run and hope to make it passed the armed guards?

[PonderBee]

Not necessarily tragedy - but ripe with the possibility for it.
To me the great riddle for aware INTP's is the impossible choice between self interest and self respect. Knowing the ingredients of the Kool-Aid do you drink it ... or, do you cut, run and hope to make it passed the armed guards?

... to further that thought. In my life I often hamstring myself by riding the fence and not making a choice. I'm able to find a way to avoid the risk of running by creating a diversion allowing me an opportunity to make it appear as if I swallowed it down. I become stuck with one foot in each world but no solid footing in either.

[Llewellyn]

In this respect, the ENs are more 'introverted' than ISs.

I really believe this.

[skip]

An INTP wrote this to me recently:

"The tragedy of the INTP: to survive as what you are, you must be something you are not."

It was qualified with the statement that this could apply to anyone, which is probably true.

Thoughts?

I agree that everyone "fakes it" to some extent, that's the oil that lubricates social interaction. It's not a tragedy, it's part of life as civil yet social beings.