Do Video Games Require Intelligence?

[paladinoflunaria]

I was watching my cousin, a 10 year-old girl, play a Super Mario World rom on another cousin's hacked X-Box, and I was telling her where the secrets were and all that junk, and I observed that she sucked at video games. Hell, I have a video tape of when I was not quite 6 years old that shows me beating that game in about 10 minutes.

I'll present my arguement for why intelligence is reflected by game-playing later. I've got to go to work shortly.

[Jezebel]

I think intelligence can be reflected in anything that involves strategy and coming up with ideas. But I do not that being bad at video games is enough to determine someone is unintelligent.

[candela]

Intelligence is required for almost any skill, and beneficial to all. Beating that game in 10 minutes at the age of 6 is incredibly good by the way. I remember not being able to beat super mario bros. at all when I was really little.
For a game like that, intelligence would help you learn the game faster, find patterns, have better timing and have better coordination. It'd probably even help your reaction time. Intelligence is more than just how well you think, so it'll affect more than just strategy and new ideas.

[file cabinet]

I think it depends on how often you play games and not on intelligence. I rarely play games therefore I suck at games.

[candela]

Obviously intelligence isn't the only factor, but I don't think anyone said that it was. It gives you more potential. Playing let's you reach the potential.
Smarter people are better at games if they have an equal amount of practice.

[jimkopelli]

But, intelligence can help with speed of learning. You'd pick things up faster. Has anyone else noticed that the a lot of the new games seem like they give too much help? Case in point: Super Metroid vs. Metroid Fusion. Was there a single hint, anywhere, in Super Metroid? No, other than the little animal tutorials for wall jumping and dash jumping. You just had to (gasp) remember where you had seen that type of block or those grapple points that looked important. In Fusion? You literally cannot go into an area without a briefing and a where-to-look-for-your-next-item/boss. Why is this?

[candela]

Is it case and point or case in point? I don't really understand the phrase, but case and point seems to make some sense to me.

[antireconciler]

Perhaps spatial intelligence in particular.

[Melody]

I'm not sure about the phrase...

The reason games are becoming easier is because they are becoming more and more popular and need to appeal to a greater audience. This audience is not incredibly happy about repeating something (especially something that moves the plot, because it is like being stuck in the same part of the story forever) or staying in the same place for a long time.

As for intelligence, I know Warcraft III requires a lot of it. But I do not think it has much to do with a common game like Mario Bros. Give any person a week with it and let them know to never let go of the B button, and they'll get it. If anything, I think it has more to do with intuition than intelligence.

[Claverhouse]

Obviously intelligence isn't the only factor, but I don't think anyone said that it was. It gives you more potential. Playing let's you reach the potential.
Smarter people are better at games if they have an equal amount of practice.

Not really, most professional sportsmen ~& sportswomen are no more famed for their intellect than the sports jocks at the average school; but I guarantee that any professional basket-ball player would beat Einstein or Kant even if the latter practised as much as the professional.

To a large amount goodness at sports or games depends on the amount of interest you are prepared to invest in putting a ball into a hole, application; and the talent innate to your body's potential, eg: a short stocky person who's not naturally limber would not be so good at sprinting or hurdling.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Jezebel]

For a game like that, intelligence would help you learn the game faster, find patterns, have better timing and have better coordination. It'd probably even help your reaction time. Intelligence is more than just how well you think, so it'll affect more than just strategy and new ideas.

I just can't see intelligence having anything to do with having good coordination or other sensory skills. I've met many people who were very good at video games and sports who I otherwise considered complete morons.

[candela]

to Claverhouse:
You're right, you have to be interested in it for you to properly apply your intelligence. Also, we're talking about games here, not sports, where the physical activity is pretty limited, so it doesn't really matter too much.

to Jezebel:
Intelligence has a lot to do with coordination, I don't see how you can not understand that. Then again, it has to do with how much you really want to learn how to coordinate yourself better. If you've ever learned to play an instrument or anything like that, you'd probably know that someone intelligent will pick up on it much faster in general.

I don't know if I said intelligence had anything to do with sensory skills. I said it could possibly help reaction time, but that's because you're thinking about things ahead of time and are sort of able to anticipate it and possibly react in a better manner than someone who just simply reacts.

Also, how well did you really know the people who were good at sports that you considered morons? Had it ever crossed your mind their interests are not the same as yours and therefore your perception of their intelligence is dwarfed?

[jittus rye]

I am into Real Time Strategy games, specifically those such as Command and Conquer Red Alert 2 / Yuri's Revenge, and C&C Generals / Zero Hour.

These games involve building up a base and army, and trying to elimate a human or humans during online play. There are multiple armies you can start out as, but other than that everyone starts out with the same stuff. Each different type of army has its own unique units and is better and worse at different parts of a game.

It takes both intellegence and knowledge of the game, as well as predicting human tactics and behavior to be sucessful. These game relies a lot less on reaction time except during intense tank battles and such.

Therefore intellegence, and then reaction time are important. I have very very poor reaction time, but with practice at playing a certain game I can become faster. I was even one of the top most players of YR worldwide, in the top 50 at least, until I stopped caring. ;)

candela, on a side note, I recently joined my school's cross country team, I still don't understand why, but it might have been because I wasn't thinking clearly at the time, who knows?. I hate being considered an athelete now and I find it somewhat offensive. It is true that many of the atheletic people are not stupid, myself and a few of the girls on the team. Other than that, a large number of them are "blokes." The intellegence level of atheletes I think is usually less than the people that aren't as atheletic because I find many athletes ingrossed with their performance and improvement to a sickening amount. For example, many of the male on the cross country team run chronicly and that is all they care about. I couldn't give a flying fluck. And as always, sorry for my poor spelling.

[Jezebel]

Intelligence has a lot to do with coordination, I don't see how you can not understand that. Then again, it has to do with how much you really want to learn how to coordinate yourself better. If you've ever learned to play an instrument or anything like that, you'd probably know that someone intelligent will pick up on it much faster in general.

I don't know if I said intelligence had anything to do with sensory skills. I said it could possibly help reaction time, but that's because you're thinking about things ahead of time and are sort of able to anticipate it and possibly react in a better manner than someone who just simply reacts.

Also, how well did you really know the people who were good at sports that you considered morons? Had it ever crossed your mind their interests are not the same as yours and therefore your perception of their intelligence is dwarfed?

It depends on how you're defining intelligence. If you consider being physically adept as intelligence, then sure, coordination can be related. I consider coordination more of a sensory skill. It is the control over the harmonious movement of the muscles and nerves of the body in reaction to external stimuli as perceived by the senses, right? I don't think that having more control over one's body makes anyone smarter.

I also disagree about someone more intelligent being able to pick up playing an instrument more quickly. I think that someone with great coordination will be able to over someone with a total lack of coordination, but that doesn't make the person with a lack of coordination less intelligent. Although someone smarter might be better able to understand music theory and composition and become a "better" musician than that better coordinated person who can play guitar faster than them.

And I have had family, friends, schoolmates, and co-workers into sports and video games. Some weren't too bright, some were. I'm not saying that they're all stupid, just that I have seen no correlation.

[candela]

Coordination is in the mind. You can learn how to be coordinated. What is the definition of intelligence? How well you learn?

I bet all the fighting game players that win international tournaments have over 130 iq. I'd imagine fighting games would have a lot to do with coordination and reaction time too.

Though that's a stupid bet since it's unlikely we'll find and force the players to take iq tests.

edit: thought I said something I didn't

[Jezebel]

Coordination is in the mind. You can learn how to be coordinated. What is the definition of intelligence? How well you learn?

People are born with coordination. We don't learn it, it's instinct. People don't go one day having absolutely no coordination then suddenly feel like "learning" it. It can be improved upon with practice, just like anything can if you do it enough times. Some people just naturally have better coordination than others and are able to improve it with less practice. Anything people can physically do can be improved to some degree with practice though. People can even learn to run faster. Do you also believe that someone who is smarter will be able to run faster than someone who isn't too bright?

[Melody]

Yeh, we do not agree on what intelligence is, therefore we are like sharks in a pond arguing about something whose definition is not agreed upon.

Also, the type of game will matter. There are many types requiring varyng degrees of reaction speed, coordination, intelligence, etc.

[paladinoflunaria]

Filecabinet said:

I think it depends on how often you play games and not on intelligence. I rarely play games therefore I suck at games.

I also rarely play games nowadays. Anyone want to challenge me to a game that neither of us has ever played? I'll probably kick your ass at it. Perhaps, especially taking this into consideration, Intuition is a factor in gaming skill. Obviously intelligence allows the gamer to recognize patterns, and dexterity allows precision and makes execution of movements to follow complex patterns possible. Intuition must play some part, because I can pick up a new game and beat it very quickly and without many difficulties. Take the extremely overrated Ocarina of Time- I beat that game in less than a week, and aside from getting all 200 gold skulltulas, I got every other secret on my own. Or perhaps the old metroid games- I get almost every item the first time I play through it- and I beat it very quickly. I think I am a few minutes off the world record for super metroid, and I've only played through it 3 or 4 times.

My arguement for discerning, roughly, someone's intelligence by watching them play video games. My cousin was on the level, Star World 4. To get to Star World 5, you have to find the key and keyhole. Due to my cousin's lack of dexterity, she died about 5 times before reaching the key and keyhole (they're always nearby). I was talking her through it as she played. You grab a turtle shell, drop down to the green and red blocks (you should have them switched on by now) and kick the shell into a ? block, which gives you the key. The keyhole is right next to the ? block. After succeeding she went on to Star World 5, died so many times she had a game over, and had to beat Star World 4 again because she didn't save. This time I watch and only speak when it is necessary. She gets to the same scenario, she doesn't pick up the immobile turtle shell, but instead tries to pick up a rapidly-moving shell in a small area right next to the immobile shell! After having a few game overs, I tell her to get the immobile shell. She still goes for the mobile shell! I tell her to get the immobile shell with emphasis (yelling), and the next time she does. She said something close to, "Oh, I get it now!" when she did what I told her to. I'll play through the rom and take a screenshot sometime. It is blatently obvious what to do. On Cookie Mountain, after Cheese Bridge Area, an enemy shows up (can't remember the name). You can't kill the enemy, but instead of jumping over the enemy and moving on, she dies over and over again trying to kill the enemy. On every level she has to kill everything she passes by, even if it is dangerous to bother with the enemies. Well, I'm done ranting. I think I'll play the rom now or something.

[file cabinet]

how old is your cousin and how old are you?
now you don't play games often but you used to play games quite frequently?

[candela]

Pat your head and rub your stomach in circles at the same time. Do you really think there's a physical block preventing you from doing this on your first try? It's a mental one.

As for your running example, if everything is the same to start with but the two peoples' intelligence, I'd say the smarter person will reach their maximum running potential first.

[paladinoflunaria]

Agreed.

[Melody]

Claverhouse, It is almost as if you are the type of person that sits in the theater and tries to guess everything that is going to happen...

[file cabinet]

Pat your head and rub your stomach in circles at the same time. Do you really think there's a physical block preventing you from doing this on your first try? It's a mental one.

As for your running example, if everything is the same to start with but the two peoples' intelligence, I'd say the smarter person will reach their maximum running potential first.


mmmm.. I think you do have some valid points.
my reasoning..
Awhile ago I was watching TV *shudder* I believe the show was called Fear Factor.
There were 3 teams.
Team a - brother & brother
Team b - sister & sister
Team c - sister & brother

1st place - team c
both were agile / nimble

2nd place - team b
more nimble then team a

3rd place - team a
Despite the two brothers being very muscular, they did not do very well in all of the challenges. But why? Too big, and only built their muscles and none of their coordination/etc. they probably also had too much testosterone.

[Melody]

It's not like only any given task is purely mental or physical.

[paladinoflunaria]

how old is your cousin and how old are you?
now you don't play games often but you used to play games quite frequently?

I am 17, my cousin is 10. Like I said, I completely mastered the game at 6, and I had only played it about one and a half weeks.

Yes, I used to play games very frequently, but I don't now.

[Melody]

How long did you say your cousin has been playing the game?

[paladinoflunaria]

A couple months.

[Jezebel]

Pat your head and rub your stomach in circles at the same time. Do you really think there's a physical block preventing you from doing this on your first try? It's a mental one.

Um, there is no block from preventing me from doing this the first time? I don't believe this is because I'm "intelligent" though.


As for your running example, if everything is the same to start with but the two peoples' intelligence, I'd say the smarter person will reach their maximum running potential first.

Sure, if everything else was equal. But from what you've been saying you make it sound like people with better coordination have better coordination because they were smarter. If two people were born with equal coordination, then I also agree that the more intelligent one will probably have the advantage at making it even better if their interest and their dedication to practice were also equal. However, I don't believe that having good coordination in the first place is due to someone being intelligent.

[candela]

Yes, of course there is physical ability involved with coordination. However, we're discussing video games, where as I mentioned before, the physical activity is pretty low and is not as much of a factor as it would be in basketball or some other sport requiring agility/dexterity.

To clear something up, no one is saying video games, or anything, is 100% intelligence. It requires some though.
For instance, most people learn to speak at an early age. If one of these people were isolated (edit: before they could speak) and kept away from any form of language and brought back into society in their mid 20s, they probably wouldn't be able to learn how to speak.
Generally speaking though, intelligent people will learn how to speak faster. Or play video games better. Or whatever.

[file cabinet]

how old is your cousin and how old are you?
now you don't play games often but you used to play games quite frequently?

I am 17, my cousin is 10. Like I said, I completely mastered the game at 6, and I had only played it about one and a half weeks.

Yes, I used to play games very frequently, but I don't now.

how many other games did you play before that particular one?

[candela]

Um, there is no block from preventing me from doing this the first time?Good job!

[Jezebel]

Yes, of course there is physical ability involved with coordination. However, we're discussing video games, where as I mentioned before, the physical activity is pretty low and is not as much of a factor as it would be in basketball or some other sport requiring agility/dexterity.

To clear something up, no one is saying video games, or anything, is 100% intelligence. It requires some though.
For instance, most people learn to speak at an early age. If one of these people were isolated (edit: before they could speak) and kept away from any form of language and brought back into society in their mid 20s, they probably wouldn't be able to learn how to speak.
Generally speaking though, intelligent people will learn how to speak faster. Or play video games better. Or whatever.

Then we're in agreement. I just attacked your statement about coordination because I don't think someone necessarily requires intelligence to have good coordination, or someone with bad coordination is unintelligent. As I said in my first post, I do agree that intelligence can be reflected in video games. Even for more reasons than I listed, but I wasn't going for an all inclusive list. Just not including coordination. Hehe :P

[candela]

I still believe good coordination requires intelligence. At least at one point in the person's life. Babies aren't born ninjas, you know. A lot of people that seem naturally good at specific things just developed those skills very early in life. It could be argued that they only developed those skills early because they were naturally good at them, but whatever. I don't have a counter to that other than it just doesn't seem right.

What I meant by being part physical is how good your nerves are and how good your muscles are. You're probably right to an extent about coordination itself being born with you, but humans learn most of what they're able to do.

Except stuff like rudimentary muscle skills, digesting food, breathing, utilizing their circulatory system, etc.

edit: Yeah, if you're not well coordinated, it doesn't mean you're not intelligent. Ha ha. I forgot to address that. There's still a correlation betweeen good coordination and intelligence though.

And although this is the opposite side of the spectrum, I did once see this retarded kid that could really dance.

I say although and though too much.

[paladinoflunaria]

I can see where you're going, filecabinet. I actually played a lot of RPGs for the nes before that. Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior, Zelda, etc. I did play some Mario 2 and 3, but not extensively. You have 7-cubed posts, by the way.

[MacGuffin]

Coordination is in the mind. You can learn how to be coordinated. What is the definition of intelligence? How well you learn?

There is a theory that there are seven types of intelligence. One of those seven is Bodily / Kinesthetic Intelligence.

http://www.ed.psu.edu/insys/ESD/gardner/MItheory.html

Bodily / Kinesthetic Intelligence is related to those people that are naturally good athletes/dancers. If you are relating coordination to that, I'd agree that coordination is related to that type of intelligence.

But if you are relating coordination to the classical type of intelligence like Visual / Spatial Intelligence or Logical/Mathematical Intelligence; I disagree.

I don't think being more logical helps you become more coordinated than the average person. Moving your body in space doesn't have a lot to do with figuring out puzzles in your head.

In fact, in my experience, I would say that the Logical/Mathematical intelligent person is more likely to be uncoordinated compared to the average person. Even when given the time to practice coordination.

[candela]

I never said being logical helps you be more coordinated, but when I think about it, I would have to say from my own experience it does. I can't really explain it any better than that, so I'll try to give you an example.

I was learning to play this song on piano where there were three quarter notes played consecutively by the left hand, and 7 consecutive 7/3rd notes played by the right hand at the same time. At first, I didn't even see how this was possible, and just trying to do it was not seeming to help. I kept playing 6 over 3 instead of 7 over 3.

Eventually, I just stopped for a few minutes and thought about it. I thought about how it would sound and thought about each hand doing its own movements. When I started doing that, I automatically broke it down into 21 rhythmic "ticks", I guess you could call it, in my mind, and imagined where the notes lined up with them. I thought about this for a few minutes, tried it again, and I started playing it almost instantly.

I'd say my mathematical side helped me a lot there.

[paladinoflunaria]

Argh, this isn't going where it is supposed to. I'm not saying that coordination has anything to do with intelligence, whether it does or not is off topic. I'm saying that my cousin's reasoning skills are very poor from my observation of her video-game playing. I'm gonna play the rom for a little bit and post a screen shot.

[paladinoflunaria]

Man, it takes forever to find roms.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/paladinoflunaria/IMAGE5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/paladinoflunaria/IMAGE6.jpg

Pretty obvious, huh? Well it took her about 25 tries to get it. Please tell me that that means something.

[Utopmk]

Man, it takes forever to find roms.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/paladinoflunaria/IMAGE5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v349/paladinoflunaria/IMAGE6.jpg

Pretty obvious, huh? Well it took her about 25 tries to get it. Please tell me that that means something.

That sure does bring back memories.

[paladinoflunaria]

The Si nostaligia is awesome, agreed.

[HairlessBluetick]

The intellegence level of atheletes I think is usually less than the people that aren't as atheletic because I find many athletes ingrossed with their performance and improvement to a sickening amount. For example, many of the male on the cross country team run chronicly and that is all they care about. I couldn't give a flying fluck. And as always, sorry for my poor spelling.

I'm not sure I see why being interested in sports and improving yourself makes you stupid.

[jittus rye]

You are only improving yourself and not others.

[HairlessBluetick]

You are only improving yourself and not others.

True... which is maybe irresponsible (or something similar) but not necessarily stupid. But we're off topic.

[shaytana]

You are only improving yourself and not others.

but not everything you do has to be a benefit to society, or at least someone other than yourself. Being selfish now and then is not a bad thing and definately not a stupid thing.

[SensEye]

Being selfish now and then is not a bad thing and definately not a stupid thing.

I would say most people are being selfish most of the time. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Being selfless is the exception rather than the rule. (Note: I do not consider making sacrifices for loved ones as being selfless. Love is very rewarding so cultivating such relationships can be considered selfish in a roundabout way).

Making sacrifices for strangers with little recognition is much less common.

[paladinoflunaria]

Very well said, SensEye. Glad to meet a fellow cynic.

[flan2dave]

"(Note: I do not consider making sacrifices for loved ones as being selfless. Love is very rewarding so cultivating such relationships can be considered selfish in a roundabout way)."

For that matter, what couldn't be considered selfish in a roundabout way? In a technical sense, everyone is selfish, but it is understood the distinction is made versus good and bad reasons to be selfish.

[candela]

Being selfish? What? Humans are self driven. Always. I guess motive isn't what people are talking about.

But I'm not sure how that really relates to video games requiring intelligence.

Who says you're not improving others when YOU train hard for some sport anyway? You're increasing the competition.

[Birnam]

I see your point Paladin, but I'd like to ask a question-

My brother and I are a year apart, we were in the same grades at school etc. My brother is naturally good at computer games. I am not. He has beaten zelda, Mario, mindless arcade games, Might and Magic II-VII, Warcraft and friends even Myst I-III. He does pretty well at playing these games. I can't get mario through the first level. Not because of lack of strategy but because he seems to be attracted to falling down pits. I quit all the Zelda games in mid-stride. I'm passable at Real time strategy games, but I'm not fast enough, at least for my brother who wins every time. The only games where I'm better are a Tetris clone (because of practice, I play a lot, he doesn't) and turn based strategy games. We are about the same playing myst and other puzzle games, though I'm a bit faster.
Now, according to your theory- who is more intelligent?

[Miss Padfoot]

The intellegence level of atheletes I think is usually less than the people that aren't as atheletic because I find many athletes ingrossed with their performance and improvement to a sickening amount. For example, many of the male on the cross country team run chronicly and that is all they care about. I couldn't give a flying fluck. And as always, sorry for my poor spelling.

I'm not sure I see why being interested in sports and improving yourself makes you stupid.It seems to me that exercising the body fills up time that could be spent exercising the mind. I much prefer the latter.

[Melody]

I do not believe in intelligence. I think "intelligence" is nothing but the result of experience. "Intelligence" is an after-the-fact label. The true property which we intend is experience. I grant that luck can play a role initially with how your brain ends up being organized before you are popped out of your mother's crotch, but I think "intelligence" is majorly the footprint of experience.

[MasterMerk]

I don't think video games require much intelligence, but I suppose it can be an asset in some instances. My brother can complete games I have difficulty with, he's 9, and an average student.

Games wizards are amazing individuals. They seem to have incredible timing and coordination for the games that they're playing. I wonder where these abilities derive from, or if they are innate.

[paladinoflunaria]

"Games Wizards?" Is that supposed to be someone who is simply good at video games? I don't know what my level of skill is, but it's pretty good.

I guess it just depends on the game. I have another cousin who is 6 months younger than me, and he is also fairly talented in the area. He's not stupid, but he's not brilliant either. When he plays games such as Zelda, he doesn't find as many secrets as I do, nor as fast. On a game like Gyrus (NES), he whips me (it relies on dexterity only, like almost all arcade games do). Intelligence is necessary for some games, but dexterity is the main ability used.

[paladinoflunaria]

Now, according to your theory- who is more intelligent?

Nicely put. The multiple intelligences arguement comes into play, and then perhaps on games such as myst, he's simply more intuitive.

You can't tell the difference all the time, but it is usually obvious. If two people of roughly the same dexterity with moderately different intelligence levels in the same area play a game, the person with more intelligence in that area will do better, on average (stupid mistakes happen despite talent).

If you were to watch me play a video game and watch my cousin (the older one) play a video game, you could tell I was more intelligent. I'm very sure of it.

Do I start another topic on how to evaluate intelligence?

[Melody]

But intelligence doesn't exist!

[paladinoflunaria]

Prove it.

[Melody]

What would you say is the difference between intelligence and experience?

[paladinoflunaria]

Experience is knowledge acquired through the senses.

Intelligence/aptitude is the ability to acquire that knowledge, or the speed at which one acquires that knowledge.

[Melody]

What is your description of knowledge?

[paladinoflunaria]

Awareness, mostly.

[Melody]

Can this awareness change? In other words, do you think it is possible for someone's intelligence to decrease or increase?

[Flip]

I was thinking about the same thing awhile back. I was thinking about RTSG (real time strategy games)

There all about strategic planning and resource allocation. I think playing them a lot helps build managerial (among other) skills.

What do you guys think?