The Illusion of Duality

[tragula]

Take your shoes off at the door. This is a different kind of thread. Less about linear logical sense. And more about circular universal sense. I am not the most qualified to start this topic. But I will anyway. And I have already stumbled by using the word "I" three times.

Perhaps it is indeed futile and wrongheaded to try and use words and rational thought to grapple with this. But let us see if it is possible to talk plainly about some higher truths.

The idea is that there is no Ego. No me, no you. No I. That we, the universe, the internet, the computer, the pizza delivery guy, are all One. That it's possible to go beyond the limiting delusion of Self into a higher plain of consciousness where there are no such boundaries. And that by doing this we are released of the burden of anxiety and drama which we have created for ourselves.

Questions:

Is this higher consciousness really helpful?
Can it be maintained in the face of an ego focused world?
Does pain not indicate the existence of a Self?
If so can the illusion of Duality be used to transcend this pain?
What about pleasure?
If enough people managed to access this different mode of thinking would it mean the end of war and poverty?
Can only N types access this?
Do Thinkers or Feelers have an edge in penetrating this illusion?
Is expecting large numbers of people to grasp this one day a hopelessly idealistic and utopian idea?
Are there correct times and ways to switch in and out of higher and lower modes?

To keep this grounded in Reality let me suggest a real life problem:

Let's say you order a pizza, and when it comes you neglect to tip the delivery guy because you have a head cold and are math incompetent to begin with. You realize this later and feel badly. But. If you and the pizza guy are all part of the same cosmic oneness, then your guilt is an illusion. And his feelings about being stiffed after riding a bike across busy city streets in sub-zero temperature are just a reflection of his poor grasp of cosmic oneness...

Non required reading:

http://www.truetao.org/articles/mason/cosmo.htm

[nobarcode]

This "higher consciousness" seems evolutionary and can be maintained and advanced, regardless of space and time, pain, pleasure, because enough people access this "consciousness" and that which can't be accessed is explained by others who have the energy to put it into terms for understanding.

[coffeezombie]

Cosmic oneness is a load of crap. If we could all automatically read each other's minds and feel each other's emotions a lot of the world's problems would be solved. Instead, we are fundamentally separate.

[Lee]

Cosmic oneness is a load of crap. If we could all automatically read each other's minds and feel each other's emotions a lot of the world's problems would be solved. Instead, we are fundamentally separate.

Quantum Mechanics suggests otherwise, the act of observing can determine the outcome of another event in a different place in space-time. There are others who could explain this better....where's pintpi.

Alternatively look it up on www.wikipedia.org or something similar.

[Johnny]

Cosmic oneness is a load of crap. If we could all automatically read each other's minds and feel each other's emotions a lot of the world's problems would be solved. Instead, we are fundamentally separate.Yeah, see if you can get up when CZ hits you with that, EU!

[nobarcode]

:)

[coffeezombie]

Quantum Mechanics suggests otherwise, the act of observing can determine the outcome of another event in a different place in space-time. There are others who could explain this better....where's pintpi.

Alternatively look it up on www.wikipedia.org or something similar.

We may be connected on a quantum level, but our feeble animal minds most likely will never have the capability to understand that. Therefore, for all intents and purposes, we are separate. The universe is only true to the extent that our minds can comprehend.

[nBT]

why do you say 'the illusion of duality'. because there is no such thing? or is it hidden. i dont believe in only one supreme being, i believe in humans as well. humans have just as much power as god has. look at us destroying the earth. we can also decide to stop the destruction.

i vote for coffeezombie
i vote for coffee

[tragula]

Cosmic oneness is a load of crap. If we could all automatically read each other's minds and feel each other's emotions a lot of the world's problems would be solved. Instead, we are fundamentally separate.


Perhaps it's a question of tuning in to others, and developing a certain awareness.

We may actually physiologically be designed to sense each others mental states....Check out Limbic Resonance:

http://www.ericfrancis.com/planetwaves/love.html

http://www.primalworks.com/thoughts/thought030224.html

Still I applaud your honest assesment of the Topic! It's important for some people to take that position if we are to have any hope of uncovering the real truth :)

[Sir Isaac Lime]

To say that we're "all connected" is one thing, but convincing yourself of ESP powers is another. It's not the concept thats bullshit, it's the pseudoscientific crap that people try to rationalize with it.

I do think that there is indeed a cultural illusion that presents itself in language.

"I came into this world..."
"He left the world"
"The conquest of nature"

We're not egos trapped inside skin that confront an alien world. As Alan Watts said best in "The Book", If a tree "leaves" then the Universe "peoples". Leaves aren't trees, but they're intrinsically connected to one another.

[coffeezombie]

I don't deny that we are connected but I think our brains are too non-advanced to ever perceive this. We may evolve to perceive non-duality, but I seriously doubt it. I would guess that any organic material does not have the ability to perceive this to its fullest extent.

[Sir Isaac Lime]

I don't deny that we are connected but I think our brains are too non-advanced to ever perceive this. We may evolve to perceive non-duality, but I seriously doubt it. I would guess that any organic material does not have the ability to perceive this to its fullest extent.

Have ever tried LSD?

I think one can indeed percieve this, but to exploit it is another thing.

[waxwing]

Anyone want to talk about string theory?

[Sir Isaac Lime]

Anyone want to talk about string cheese?

Yes! :thumbup:

[waxwing]

Uh, you, uhm....Must be my eyes playing tricks on me. Does [cheese] = [theory]? Don't worry. This is top-secret. I like string cheese very much. I'm guessing you were making fun of me by changing the subject, or are you just hungry for some o' that cheesy funfood?

[Sir Isaac Lime]

Uh, you, uhm....Must be my eyes playing tricks on me. Does [cheese] = [theory]? Don't worry. This is top-secret. I like string cheese very much. I'm guessing you were making fun of me by changing the subject, or are you just hungry for some o' that cheesy funfood?

Just a lover of childhood snacks. String Cheese, Capri Sun, Otter Pops...

From what I know about string theory, it's suppose to be an attempt at a unified theory of the Universe correct? Sounds noble, but unified makes me skeptic. I haven't read anything on it yet, but it sounds interesting.

[songbird36]

[QUOTE=Sir Isaac Lime]To say that we're "all connected" is one thing, but convincing yourself of ESP powers is another. It's not the concept thats bullshit, it's the pseudoscientific crap that people try to rationalize with it.

QUOTE]

What about the famed "Six Degrees of Separation". All around the world we are all connected by six connections or less.

[waxwing]

Just a lover of childhood snacks. String Cheese, Capri Sun, Otter Pops...


You're rad. Did you ever get into go-gurt, fruit snacks, push-pops, or the little packets of ritz cheese sandwiches? I like all the snacks you mentioned. Capri Sun is yummy (I like Pacific Cooler) but I always (as in every single time so far) spill the juice when I try to poke the silver container with the straw.

Back on topic...

Yeah. I don't know a lot about string theory, but here's an excerpt from this book, "The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality," by Brian Greene.

"...Taking all (this) together, we see a pattern that goes from complexity to simplicity, a pattern that goes from diversity to unity. The explanatory arrows seem to be converging on a powerful, yet-to-be discovered framework that would unify all of nature's forces and all of matter within a single thory capable of describing all physical phenomena. Albert Einstein, who for more than three decades sought to combine electromagnetism and general relativity in a single theory, is rightly credited with initiating the modern search for a unified theory. For long stretches during those decades, he was the sole searcher for such a unified theory, and his passionate yet solitary quest alienated him from the mainstream physics community. During the last twenty years, though, there has been a dramatic resurgence in the quest for a unified theory; Einstein's lonely dream has become the driving force for a whole generation of physicists. But with the discoveries since Einstein's time has come a shift in focus. Even though we don't yet have a successful theory combining the strong nuclear force and the electroweak force, all three of these forces (electromagnetic, weak, strong) have been described by a single uniform language based on quantum mechanics. But general relativity, our most refined theory of the fourth force, stands outside this framework. General relativity is a classical theory: it does not incorporate any of the probabilistic concepts of quantum theory. A primary goal of the modern unification program is therefore to combine general relativity and quantum mechanics, and to describe all four forces within the same quantum mechanical framework. This has proven to be one of the most difficult problems theoretical physics has ever encountered. Let's see why...."

[Sir Isaac Lime]

[QUOTE=Sir Isaac Lime]To say that we're "all connected" is one thing, but convincing yourself of ESP powers is another. It's not the concept thats bullshit, it's the pseudoscientific crap that people try to rationalize with it.

QUOTE]

What about the famed "Six Degrees of Separation". All around the world we are all connected by six connections or less.

Theres a fun mediation excersise to try. Sit down and think about why you're meditatiting. You'll start with something like "Because I read a book", which leads to "Because a friend recommended it". Eventually you'll come to a point of something like "I'm meditating because a man in Switzerland ate fish for breakfast"

[Crispy]

I know a little bit about string theory as there was an extremmelly good documentery on the subject about a year ago on channel 4 (UK) a while ago.

As far as I can determine the theroy is that once you go beyond the atomic level of things , there are these little energy strings that vibrate or move in a different way according to what kind of substance/matter they are, kind of like everything has a certain vibration that makes it what it is, so (this is how the doc explained this) everything is like an orcastra playing a tune with different instuments (strings) making different sounds (vibrations).

This may be way off the mark though, been a long time since I saw that doc :blink:

[Crispy]

This is a better explanation of string theory from a string theoy website

Think of a guitar string that has been tuned by stretching the string under tension across the guitar. Depending on how the string is plucked and how much tension is in the string, different musical notes will be created by the string. These musical notes could be said to be excitation modes of that guitar string under tension.
In a similar manner, in string theory, the elementary particles we observe in particle accelerators could be thought of as the "musical notes" or excitation modes of elementary strings.
In string theory, as in guitar playing, the string must be stretched under tension in order to become excited. However, the strings in string theory are floating in spacetime, they aren't tied down to a guitar. Nonetheless, they have tension. The string tension in string theory is denoted by the quantity 1/(2 p a'), where a' is pronounced "alpha prime"and is equal to the square of the string length scale.
If string theory is to be a theory of quantum gravity, then the average size of a string should be somewhere near the length scale of quantum gravity, called the Planck length, which is about 10-33 centimeters, or about a millionth of a billionth of a billionth of a billionth of a centimeter. Unfortunately, this means that strings are way too small to see by current or expected particle physics technology (or financing!!) and so string theorists must devise more clever methods to test the theory than just looking for little strings in particle experiments.
String theories are classified according to whether or not the strings are required to be closed loops, and whether or not the particle spectrum includes fermions. In order to include fermions in string theory, there must be a special kind of symmetry called supersymmetry, which means for every boson (particle that transmits a force) there is a corresponding fermion (particle that makes up matter). So supersymmetry relates the particles that transmit forces to the particles that make up matter.
Supersymmetric partners to to currently known particles have not been observed in particle experiments, but theorists believe this is because supersymmetric particles are too massive to be detected at current accelerators. Particle accelerators could be on the verge of finding evidence for high energy supersymmetry in the next decade. Evidence for supersymmetry at high energy would be compelling evidence that string theory was a good mathematical model for Nature at the smallest distance scales.

For anyone who dares here's a more advanced explantion
advanced explanation (http://www.superstringtheory.com/basics/basic4a.html)

[pintpi]

Quantum Mechanics suggests otherwise, the act of observing can determine the outcome of another event in a different place in space-time. There are others who could explain this better....where's pintpi.

Alternatively look it up on www.wikipedia.org or something similar.
I'm not one that prescribes to quantum mechanics having anything to do with consciousness or freewill. I have run into a number of "physicists" (they generally don't have degrees but know a bit about the subject) that think the key to understanding consciousness and freewill is in quantum mechanics. However, I see human consciousness as very analogous to computers.

Computer processors are for the most part made of transistors that function based on quantum effects but the software that runs on the processors are completely removed from quantum effects. I think the brain works in a similar way, where the neurons function according to quantum mechanics but the information that is passed around in the brain is completely removed from the effects of quantum mechanics. I don't know if we can go as far to say the brain has software running in it but we can see examples of software in the form of hardware in the computing world as well (dedicated decoding and encoding hardware, mpeg video decoders for example). I think the brain is basically dedicated processing hardware with the added ability to self program (some what like Field-Programmable Gate Arrays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FPGA)).

So with this view of the brain, I don't see how there could be any kind of global consciousness, in the sense of information being passed between people by quantum means or any other mystical means but that isn't to say there isn't globally shared information. I have read some of Jung's work (I believe he is the one that coined the term global consciousness) and i don't think he ever meant to imply some supernatural connection between people. I think the information we all share comes from genetics. All of our brains basically function in the same way, we process information in very similar ways. It is not at all surprising that we often have the same ideas, beliefs, thoughts, etc... that people we have never encountered before have.

I think where the more spiritual global consciousness concept comes from is, our intuition and our pattern matching ability. These causes us to often see patterns and connections where there are none (for example seeing jesus in your cheese sandwich). If there truely was a realtime connection between remotely isolated indviduals it would have some scientific evidence to back it up by now.

So yes, it is an illusion.

[pintpi]

And no I don't want to talk about string theory. The math is way beyond me (I never quit got the hang of partial differential equations). I just have a passing knowledge of it but hasn't string theory been replaced by M-theory? I think the story goes, there were 5 string theories and then some crazy loon of a mathmatician figured out all the string theories were just different interpretations of a more fundamental theory, M-Theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory).

[tragula]

Here is some more evidence in favor of non-separateness. From this very site. If INTPs can be like this with total strangers over the internet... then....

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=2477&highlight=love

[Lee]

So yes, it is an illusion.

Oh I tend to agree I was simply pointing out some weird "stuff" that goes on in the universe. Are we totally disconected?..... I am not sure, we are trapped in this universe, bound by it's rules and all part of the same whole, so you never know, there may be something in it.

But....

I think ideas such as ESP reflect mans unconscious intuition that is interpreted as supernatural powers or activity. I think the belief in global consciousness is born out of the way the universe with all it's rules, creates similar patterns again and again.

[Sir Isaac Lime]

I think the brain works in a similar way, where the neurons function according to quantum mechanics but the information that is passed around in the brain is completely removed from the effects of quantum mechanics. I don't know if we can go as far to say the brain has software running in it but we can see examples of software in the form of hardware in the computing world as well (dedicated decoding and encoding hardware, mpeg video decoders for example). I think the brain is basically dedicated processing hardware with the added ability to self program (some what like Field-Programmable Gate Arrays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FPGA)).

As a metaphor, I would call genetics the hardware and culture the software. Without recognizing any validity to Neurolinguistic Programming, I would also say that the software can be modified.


So with this view of the brain, I don't see how there could be any kind of global consciousness, in the sense of information being passed between people by quantum means or any other mystical means but that isn't to say there isn't globally shared information. I have read some of Jung's work (I believe he is the one that coined the term global consciousness) and i don't think he ever meant to imply some supernatural connection between people. I think the information we all share comes from genetics. All of our brains basically function in the same way, we process information in very similar ways. It is not at all surprising that we often have the same ideas, beliefs, thoughts, etc... that people we have never encountered before have.

Remote Viewing has pretty much filed itself into the "bullshit" category years ago. Jungs theory (the collective unconcious) was indeed a bit "mystical", but he didn't suggest mental telepathy.

But that isn't to say it not real, yet. Wireless internet, bioengineering, virtual reality, and nanotechnology certainly paint a future where these might all be possibilities. Our intuition to it's existance might suggest that it simply hasn't been created yet.

[Star Cannon]

Gah! mi' god! So many ideas and stances!

I dunno about the rest of you, but I do think the concept of an human oversoul would make sense. There's a reason why we don't regress backward, from say... integration back to segregation; or why we don't just invade other countries or go back to a middle-age might-makes-right mentality. Is it possible that... because the "lessons" have been learned, that it is impossible to go bac because the lesson has been stored in a collective way...

As for the string theory, I see no reason why it shouldn't be valid. Indeed, if everything is a vibration at the core, then there is no reason why we cannot transmute things by thought or do the "supernatural things" like ESP or clairivoyance. I remembered someone on this thread said the human brain wasn't "advanced" enough to percieve something... what about the mind not being advanced enough to comphrehend? ISn't the brain just a "computer" for the mind? A way for input and output to reach thought. After all, there isn't any "random thought section" in the brain...