Threads that should not be allowed

[songbird36]

OK in response to Div's suggestion to air this issue in the Suggestions area, here are my suggestions for topics which either should not be allowed at all, or which should be moderated very carefully:

(1) Suicide (any discussion of why to or how to);

(2) Any threads which encourage or incite blatant prejudice or hatred of a sector of forum members (such as women or gays);

(3) Child porn or sexual activity;

(4) Miscellaneous illegal activities (such as how to make drugs or bombs etc)

I'm not suggesting you get all "Big Brotherish" - merely that there are some things which need careful treatment. There may be criminal liability issues for the site owners as well.

[melancholeric]

I disagree with the last one. Particularly because you mentioned drugs. That is one area where knowledge does reduce the risks. No one is going to drop acid because we have a thread about it. If someone is going to do it, atleast he should know what he is doing.

On the other hand, there are plenty of places for that on the web.

I assume you mean sexual activity involving children with the third one? ( Somehow I can't see how you would be against discussing sexual activity in general. )

[songbird36]

You think that a thread on how to make illegal drugs is OK?

From a lawyer's perspective I suggest to you that such a thread could expose not only the participants to possible criminal liability in the jurisdiction where the site originates, but also the forum site owners.

[melancholeric]

Shit, I misread. Sleep deprivation. I thought you meant all drug-related discussion.

As for criminal liability, doesn't that depend on national laws? I've seen such discussions on Finnish boards ( some of which received financial support from the goverment, although indirectly ) with no problems. Well, not "making", but, say, extracting LSA from morning glory.

[Eileen]

probably all good things to avoid, i think. the last one (re: drugs) is the only one i'd possibly find fault with, but i do see your point.

[Shai Gar]

(1) Suicide (any discussion of why to or how to); there is not anything that should be disallowed. intellectual freedom of speach,


(2) Any threads which encourage or incite blatant prejudice or hatred of a sector of forum members (such as women or gays); we do have a flamethrower section for a reason. if you want to hate on a group, or an individual, that is why this section is here.


(3) Child porn or sexual activity; child pornography is a subject that matters to teh community, it should be discussed, and i shall start the thread. and sexual activity, what are you a puritan? we also have a mature age section for a reason.


(4) Miscellaneous illegal activities (such as how to make drugs or bombs etc) i think you are preaching to the wrong choir. go talk to a group of ISTJ's illegal simply means the government doesnt like it. there is nothing wrong with either of those topics and we have freedom of speach online for a reason.


I'm not suggesting you get all "Big Brotherish" - merely that there are some things which need careful treatment. There may be criminal liability issues for the site owners as well. if you are worried about the owners then take it up with them, they are intelligent enough to delete what is wildly inapropriate and if they feel the need they can put a clause seperating themselves legally from what goes on in this place of conversation.

you want to live in a world where anything that is contraversial (something that causes debate) is outlawed dont you?

[Vagabond]

The forum site owners have no responsibility on the context of the posts of the forum members. Everyone is responsible for themselves. It is like saying that if I go on TV and start swearing, they will shut down the channel. Please.

[songbird36]

Yes I was reading the LSD thread recently and thought that came dangerously close to both describing and inciting illegal drug manufacture.

The internet jurisdiction issue is a very live legal issue at the moment. Site owners and even ISPs can potentially be held liable for illegality. It is not clear which jurisdictional laws will govern particular issues, so the safest option is to avoid potential problems by playing it safe.

[Shai Gar]

oh now that is an NT option for you, if something is hazardous just avoid it like the plague.

dont discuss it or face the problem, just run like a girl who sees a barking dog

[pintpi]

I don't mean to pick on you again for being non-INTP, especially since I'm sure there are some INTPs that will agree with you on this one but the whole idea of placing limits on what we can discuss here is counter to the fundamental principles of free thought and logical discussion that INTPs attach particular importance to. So I'm not too sure how many will agree with you on this one, I just know I'm not one. The only thing the mods should be mind full of is their legal liability, which as a lawyer you may be able to enlighten them on. That is not to say I disagree with you that these are touchy subjects but I am a firm believer in the idea that information never hurt anyone. So I have a hard time holding anyone responsible for the damage caused after they disclosed the dangerous information.

[songbird36]

The forum site owners have no responsibility on the context of the posts of the forum members. Everyone is responsible for themselves. It is like saying that if I go on TV and start swearing, they will shut down the channel. Please.

I am a lawyer Vaga, I can show you cases where ISPs and site owners have been held liable in respect of illegal activities occurring on a site. There was a case recently involving the trading of Nazi memorabilia on the E-Bay auction site.

This is not a theoretical concern - it is a real issue. If they haven't already done so, the site owners should take some legal advice on this issue.

[Vagabond]

I am a lawyer Vaga, I can show you cases where ISPs and site owners have been held liable in respect of illegal activities occurring on a site. There was a case recently involving the trading of Nazi memorabilia on the E-Bay auction site.

This is not a theoretical concern - it is a real issue. If they haven't already done so, the site owners should take some legal advice on this issue. Advice on how to kill yourself is an issue. Theoretical discussion on suicide can't be an issue by any kind of logic. Since when sensitive topics are taboos by the law?

[songbird36]

I don't mean to pick on you again for being non-INTP, especially since I'm sure there are some INTPs that will agree with you on this one but the whole idea of placing limits on what we can discuss here is counter to the fundamental principles of free thought and logical discussion that INTPs attach particular importance to. So I'm not too sure how many will agree with you on this one, I just know I'm not one. The only thing the mods should be mind full of is their legal liability, which as a lawyer you may be able to enlighten them on. That is not to say I disagree with you that these are touchy subjects but I am a firm believer in the idea that information never hurt anyone. So I have a hard time holding anyone responsible for the damage caused after they disclosed the dangerous information.

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion then, you don't think there should be rules either, to protect site members from insults and offence? Anyone should be able to say what the heck they feel like?

[Shai Gar]

songbird your idea comes close to the sex education in schools should be limited to abstinence.

[songbird36]

Advice on how to kill yourself is an issue. Theoretical discussion on suicide can't be an issue by any kind of logic. Since when sensitive topics are taboos by the law?

And can you provide an assurance that the newly formed thread on Suicide will not go off on the tangent of methods by which a person can end their own life?

I doubt that you can be so sure.

[int]

When someone registers they have to agree to this:



All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of INTP Central, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.
Is that not enough? If not, what else would we need?

[Shai Gar]

ahh i see, songbird has me on ignore, that has to be the only way a person can keep up the whole "people shouldnt insult other people in forums" arguement.

once more i say, there is a flamethrower section, and an ignore option

[Lee]

I am a firm believer in the idea that information never hurt anyone. So I have a hard time holding anyone responsible for the damage caused after they disclosed the dangerous information.

Ahhh but then they do say that the pen (or at least the keyboard) is mightier than the sword.

[songbird36]

When someone registers they haver to agree to this:

Is that not enough? If not, what else would we need?

There was also a disclaimer in the E-Bay case, and the court did not uphold it (the court held that the site owner was liable despite the existence of the disclaimer).

I'm afraid you will probably have to vet content more carefully if you want to avoid liability.

No Shai Gar you're not on "Ignore". I have no issues with you whatsoever.

[Shai Gar]

care to test that saying? my katana verses your ballpoint?

[Shai Gar]

then what is your issue with the flamethrower board? or are you still hung up that zedo attacked your view in that religion board, and you keep attacking him to his amused chagrin

[Lee]

eh..I hate the idea of the content of this forum being controlled because of legal concerns.......the law truly is an ass.

However it may prove wise to at least be more aware and ready to act on these concerns in future.

[Eileen]

child pornography is a subject that matters to teh community, it should be discussed, and i shall start the thread. and sexual activity, what are you a puritan? we also have a mature age section for a reason.


No, jackass, she is not saying that there shouldn't be a thread on sexual activity. Just not CHILD sexual activity.

And talking ABOUT child pornography as a concept or a phenomenon or whatever is probably fine, but posting child porn can fuck someone up legally. And quite frankly, in this case, I don't think that child porn is illegal simply because the government doesn't like it; it's illegal because it's morally reprehensible and it's important to protect children from sexual predators.



Actually, I do agree that technically someone should be able to post something hateful in the flamethrower section. And hopefully all the intelligent, semi-enlightened people will tell him or her what a fucking asshole (and here, hopefully illogical asshole) he or she is. Community moderation in that way is appropriate for such a topic. If a person posts about killing a certain group of people or something like that, I think probably that's a good thread to remove.



i think you are preaching to the wrong choir. go talk to a group of ISTJ's illegal simply means the government doesnt like it. there is nothing wrong with either of those topics and we have freedom of speach online for a reason.



I don't think this is entirely a type issue. Partially, sure. But being concerned with the legal safety of an online place that you value is plenty understandable.


As for the suicide issue, I can see both sides, but tend to agree more with songbird. I don't necessarily think they should be entirely banned, but they should perhaps be heavily moderated. Don't know how; that's just my reaction to the matter.

[songbird36]

Let's leave the aforementioned person out of this, please. He has nothing to do with this issue.

[int]

There was also a disclaimer in the E-Bay case, and the court did not uphold it (the court held that the site owner was liable despite the existence of the disclaimer).

I'm afraid you will probably have to vet content more carefully if you want to avoid liability.

OK.

I'm not trying to disrespect you, but I think it would be unwise not to ask this:

Can any other lawyers jump in and give us a second/third/more opinion?

[songbird36]

OK.

I'm not trying to disrespect you, but I think it would be unwise not to ask this:

Can any other lawyers jump in and give us a second/third/more opinion?

Good idea. I'm not licensed to practice in the US so can't technically offer you advice anyway.

[Shai Gar]

listen eileen you intellectually retarded fool, songbird said {(3) Child porn or sexual activity;} she didnt say that the sexual activity had to have to do with children, and given her stance on most of the others i thought she might be talking about sex in general, she herself has not said that i was wrong and since she is a living active member of these forums she can answer that for herself, dont try defend her statements when she can do a very good job of it herself.

what the hell makes you think that i would allow child pornography to be posted in these forums, if i saw it i would immediately report that post to the administrators and i am certain they would delete both the user and the post.

i haven't even thought about reporting anyone to the admins yet because noone has broken the unspoken rules. not even songbird with her attacks on the freedom of speach for these forums, she too has the freedom of speach to attack our freedoms on these forums.

i must thank you though for your uninformed opinions, i haven't been riled like that in ages

[pintpi]

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion then, you don't think there should be rules either, to protect site members from insults and offence?
Personally, no I don't. I don't have any idea how letters on someone's computer monitor can be offensive or hurtful. I have already stated in a previous post that it is pretty hard to insult me over the internet (even in person it can be hard). We all have made up names here, we can change names to become a new person whenever we want. I don't know why people have to take things so personally when the internet is so impersonal.


Anyone should be able to say what the heck they feel like?
Yup. I think if only INTPs were allowed here there would probably only be one rule, "Don't say anything illegal." and even that would be bent all the time. I think the rules here are more to protect the sensitive nature of other personality types.

[shaytana]

songbird;

Some of the rules that you mentioned are already in place, even if they are not stated in the official rules.

Posting child porn is grounds for immediate banning.

Posts about trading or sharing of copyright material, drugs or weapons will be deleted and the member warned.

This of course is due to legal liability.

Posts discussing these issues are allowed.

As for your first two points I don't want to censor anyone. As long as it doesn't run the risk of causing us legal problems and it's not a personal attack it is allowed.

[Shai Gar]

thank you shaytana.

i still like the bouncing ribena

[Lee]

Yup. I think if only INTPs were allowed here there would probably only be one rule, "Don't say anything illegal." and even that would be bent all the time. I think the rules here are more to protect the sensitive nature of other personality types.
I don't think that is fair, it's a bit patronizing.....although most problems do revolve around non-INTP's or Shai Gar, I don't think many, if any concessions are made on this forum for other types....if there were I imagine there would be more of them about.

about 98% of the forum is INTP

[songbird36]

Yup. I think if only INTPs were allowed here there would probably only be one rule, "Don't say anything illegal." and even that would be bent all the time. I think the rules here are more to protect the sensitive nature of other personality types.

Well call me contrary Pintpi, but I just have this funny intuitive feeling that if someone began to fling mud at you in a vicious and horrible way as was done to me in recent weeks, your laudable principles regarding "freedom of expression" would take a very large and dramatic nosedive.

I guess we may not have the opportunity to test out this thesis however, as you appear not to piss anyone off majorly.

[Shai Gar]

oh and i would think that practically anything is illegal in teh USA these days due in part to that patriot act

[songbird36]

songbird;

Some of the rules that you mentioned are already in place, even if they are not stated in the official rules.

Posting child porn is grounds for immediate banning.

Posts about trading or sharing of copyright material, drugs or weapons will be deleted and the member warned.

This of course is due to legal liability.

Posts discussing these issues are allowed.

As for your first two points I don't want to censor anyone. As long as it doesn't run the risk of causing us legal problems and it's not a personal attack it is allowed.

I think members' safety should also be a principle Shaytana.

A suicide thread places mentally vulnerable members at risk. And judging from recent threads there are a lot of clinically depressed members posting on this site.

[CoHo]

How come alt.suicide isn't under legal pressure ALL THE TIME then?

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.suicide


"What is the best way to kill myself"
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.suicide/search?group=alt.suicide&q=best+way&qt_g=1&searchnow=Search+this+group

[Eileen]

listen eileen you intellectually retarded fool, songbird said {(3) Child porn or sexual activity;} she didnt say that the sexual activity had to have to do with children, and given her stance on most of the others i thought she might be talking about sex in general

A. Have you read the Mature Audience threads? Songbird is clearly not against talking about sexual activity. I know this because she HAS talked about sexual activity--a lot.

B. Grammatically, "child porn or sexual activity" can be interpreted either way. "Child" is an adjective that modifies both "porn" and "sexual activity." However, given the context of SONGBIRD, it's pretty apparent that she meant it the way I interpreted it. But perhaps you didn't read those posts. I'm SORRY IF I OFFENDED YOU.

(Actually, I'm just not sorry. Not at all.)

[songbird36]

A. Have you read the Mature Audience threads? Songbird is clearly not against talking about sexual activity. I know this because she HAS talked about sexual activity--a lot.

B. Grammatically, "child porn or sexual activity" can be interpreted either way. "Child" is an adjective that modifies both "porn" and "sexual activity." However, given the context of SONGBIRD, it's pretty apparent that she meant it the way I interpreted it. But perhaps you didn't read those posts. I'm SORRY IF I OFFENDED YOU.

(Actually, I'm just not sorry. Not at all.)

I'm talking about child porn OR discussions relating to sexual abuse or exploitation of children (which is illegal)

[Lee]

A. Have you read the Mature Audience threads? Songbird is clearly not against talking about sexual activity. I know this because she HAS talked about sexual activity--a lot.

B. Grammatically, "child porn or sexual activity" can be interpreted either way. "Child" is an adjective that modifies both "porn" and "sexual activity." However, given the context of SONGBIRD, it's pretty apparent that she meant it the way I interpreted it. But perhaps you didn't read those posts. I'm SORRY IF I OFFENDED YOU.

(Actually, I'm just not sorry. Not at all.)

Eileen, you should really stop taking the SG's bait.

[Eileen]

Eileen, you should really stop taking the SG's bait.

Probably true.

I should really just go clean my house. Or read The Amen Corner. Or maybe take a bath.

:)

(Normally I just ignore him, but he seems to be worse than usual tonight, perhaps because I egg him on.)

[Shai Gar]

it isnt bait, i dont even want her to comment on what i say since she does nothing that i would deem critically analytical. though i am amused at her attacks.

thank you songbird for the clarification, i take back what i said about you being a puritan.

[songbird36]

What do other forum members think?

I note there are 12 people viewing this thread right now.

[shaytana]

I think members' safety should also be a principle Shaytana.

A suicide thread places mentally vulnerable members at risk. And judging from recent threads there are a lot of clinically depressed members posting on this site.

I'm a smoker and when I saw that thread about smoking it made me feel like lighting up a smoke, so I did.

[Shai Gar]

i am also easily influenced, right now at this point in time i am finding that bouncing ribena more diverting than i would find getting a blowjob. it makes me think of the gummy bears, bouncing here and there and everywhere

[garak]

No offense songbird, but I can see why Zedo suggested that the non-INTPs ought to cool it around here. It's one thing to join in on the discussion, but it's another thing to push to add rules which are obviously contrary to the spirit of the personality type that this forum is dedicated to. When I go to the ENTP forums I practically tiptoe around. I hardly post (well they're just not that busy for that matter), and when I do, I am very careful to chime in without steering the conversation away from being ENTP-oriented. It's "their" place, just like as INTPs, this is "our" place. Not that others can't join in, but they should be considerate about not changing the general atmosphere of the place.

Surfing around the forums and then all of a sudden running into this intensely "J" thread about what "should not be allowed" in the suggestion box is quite threatening. Personally I'd prefer no rules -- common sense is perfectly capable of getting the job done.

[int]

Since the first days of this forum, suicide has been a topic and some have mentioned how the discussions have helped them.

While the legal ramifications are important, I still think the threads can be more helpful than not. Of course, if someone started saying they are going to do it (no one has - it's just been theorized) then we will be concerned.

A statement like: "I'm thinking of killing myself. Here's a poll on the ways I'm thinking of doing it. Which one should I do?" will be taken seriously. Gathering information out of sheer curiosity is different.

[Eileen]

it isnt bait, i dont even want her to comment on what i say since she does nothing that i would deem critically analytical. though i am amused at her attacks.


Eh, I'm not trying to be analytical. I'm using extraverted feeling right now, reacting to you coming across as a jerk. I recognize the limits of my perception based on the medium of communication, and I apologize for attacking you.

[songbird36]

Since the first days of this forum, suicide has been a topic and some have mentioned how the discussions have helped them.

While the legal ramifications are important, I still think the threads can be more helpful than not. Of course, if someone started saying they are going to do it (no one has - it's just been theorized) then we will be concerned.

A statement like: "I'm thinking of killing myself. Here's a poll on the ways I'm thinking of doing it. Which one should I do?" will be taken seriously. Gathering information out of sheer curiosity is different.

I think you're being very naive. I really do.

And sorry garak but I don't find non-INTP-ist stereotypes very helpful or constructive either. I posted this thread in the hope of achieving a useful and well balanced discussion of the issues, not attracting Zedo type comments. I have to say I'm a little disappointed.

[Eileen]

I think you're being very naive. I really do.

And sorry garak but I don't find non-INTP-ist stereotypes very helpful or constructive either. I posted this thread in the hope of achieving a useful and well balanced discussion of the issues, not attracting Zedo type comments. I have to say I'm a little disappointed.

Songbird, as your usual ally and a fellow non-INTP, I must say that I do think that his criticism of the thread is reasonable (it's understandable that INTPs wouldn't prefer to have these limitations, given overal generalizations that can be made about them). He said it in a tactful way and didn't make any personal attacks. This IS an INTP-focused forum primarily for INTPs, so making rules generally to suit INTPs makes sense.

(I still don't think it's an ENTIRELY type-based argument, since there are already certain rules in place that correspond with the ones you proposed.)

[int]

I think you're being very naive. I really do.

OK. Thanks for explaining.

Take a look at some of the past threads to see my point.

If I had any reason to believe that someone was no longer here because of what is in those threads, I would certainly look at it differently. But having the threads open for discussion has proved helpful in the past.

Back in high school the guitarist in one of my bands got drunk and disappeared into desert with some broken glass. I knew something was up with him so I went looking and found him with bleeding wrists. We talked it over for about an hour and he got help the following morning.

Talking about it proved helpful - and others have expressed that reading some posts here have been helpful as well. I'm relating the two, which I don't see as naive.

[garak]

And sorry garak but I don't find non-INTP-ist stereotypes very helpful or constructive either. I posted this thread in the hope of achieving a useful and well balanced discussion of the issues, not attracting Zedo type comments. I have to say I'm a little disappointed.
I was honest and made a very strong effort to be reasonable and not attack you or anything of that sort -- to say that I made a "Zedo type comment" is absurd. So far the response of INTPs has been pretty heavily against your recommendations. A meaningful response to the points I raised would be nice. Instead you talk down to me.

[Shai Gar]

No offense songbird, but I can see why Zedo suggested that the non-INTPs ought to cool it around here. It's one thing to join in on the discussion, but it's another thing to push to add rules which are obviously contrary to the spirit of the personality type that this forum is dedicated to. When I go to the ENTP forums I practically tiptoe around. I hardly post (well they're just not that busy for that matter), and when I do, I am very careful to chime in without steering the conversation away from being ENTP-oriented. It's "their" place, just like as INTPs, this is "our" place. Not that others can't join in, but they should be considerate about not changing the general atmosphere of the place.

Surfing around the forums and then all of a sudden running into this intensely "J" thread about what "should not be allowed" in the suggestion box is quite threatening. Personally I'd prefer no rules -- common sense is perfectly capable of getting the job done. probably the only time i will agree with you without reservation.

[songbird36]

No I didn't intend to talk down. But you are suggesting that I hold the views I do because I am a "J", and Zedo used to do that all the time, and I just think it is blatant "type discrimination". I prefer issues to be addressed on their *merits*, not based on who is posting a view, and what their type is.

You will notice that I have never ever, in any of my posts on this site, suggested that someone is expressing a view I disagree with *because* they are an INTP. I always address arguments on merits.

Does that make sense?

[Vagabond]

Songbird: If you have any specific laws or articles or whatever on internet boards' policies, it would be helpful and appreciated to let us know (or if any lawyer on here does, for that matter). Right now you sound like you are using your professional identity to impose your personal opinion.

[songbird36]

Songbird: If you have any specific laws or articles or whatever on internet boards' policies, it would be helpful and appreciated to let us know (or if any lawyer on here does, for that matter). Right now you sound like you are using your professional identity to impose your personal opinion.

I'm not imposing anything - I put forward some views for discussion. I am perfectly comfortable with others disagreeing with me.

Am I not allowed to state a view now? I thought expressing and airing views was what this forum was about. Please clarify.

[Mariel]

What do other forum members think?


There have been ongoing threads about suicide since the forum began, complete with discussion of possible methods, etc. Within those threads members have posted a lot of excellent thoughts on the consequences behind such an act, as well as philosophical implications, etc. I think it's a valid topic. We are all responsible for our own actions.

[Vagabond]

You keep saying "I am a lawyer, so you should trust that I know better - you should not have such and such up for discussion because it breaks the law". You are not telling your personal opinion, you make it look like a fact. If it is your personal opinion, cool, no problem. If it is a fact, please back it up.

And I think you knew exactly what I meant without asking. I have never said you can't express your opinions on this board, quite the opposite if you remember (which I am sure you do), so don't even play that card on me.

[garak]

No I didn't intend to talk down.
Yeah I know. But -- and I'll use a stereotype here -- it is painfully "J." When someone says they're disappointed in me, I simply consider it their problem. I encounter this with my mom (INFJ). Went through it with my INFJ ex too. And my ISTJ dad ... and so on.


But you are suggesting that I hold the views I do because I am a "J", and Zedo used to do that all the time, and I just think it is blatant "type discrimination". I prefer issues to be addressed on their *merits*, not based on who is posting a view, and what their type is.

That's what I did. The idea was crap to me and so I used the type dynamics to explain why you (almost solely) would care to make such a suggestion. Call it stereotyping all you want, but that's what personality typing is. I didn't go "oh there's that INTJ, here is my chance to attack her for being who she is!" I went "oh man that's a horrible idea -- and look, it's being suggested by an INTJ! <insert cartoon exclamation mark above head>" Based on the other replies and just general knowledge of MBTI, it is quite obvious that the P/J difference is at play here. To ignore that on a forum like this would be silly.

Say a Neo-Nazi comes on the board and starts talking about how he dislikes black people. I point out that it's probably because he's a Neo-Nazi, and maybe he should tone down the racist comments, since we are generally not a racist forum. I'm discriminating? Hah.


You will notice that I have never ever, in any of my posts on this site, suggested that someone is expressing a view I disagree with *because* they are an INTP. I always address arguments on merits.

Does that make sense?
If you post on a type-related forum and never make the connection between different types acting differently, then well.. I don't really know what to say.

[Mr. Good Beats]

i was reading a thread concerning sexual topics. i got horny, went out and found me a real sweet tart. oops, now i got HIV, guess we shouldn't talk about sex anymore because someone might go out and have sex and get a disease.

suicide is a real problem that needs to be discussed, either light heartedly or in seriousness. i know i used to think of offing myself a lot because i felt like an alien, not uncommon amongst this group i hear, if i would have had a source like this back in the day to let me know that other people had these thoughts too, it would have made me feel a little more 'normal', which would in turn probably ease my suicidal thoughts.

[Shai Gar]

i disagree with your opinions, but i will fight to the first pain for your rights to hold them.
- Shai Gar

you are allowed your views but it does seem that you are just saying this with you being a lawyer to back it up, please show us law. if i was going to i would refer to http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au

air your view all you want but it is not going to be put into practice so you are really just wasting time on it when you could be airing other views and discussing other fun things. like gummy bears.

[songbird36]

Yeah I know. But -- and I'll use a stereotype here -- it is painfully "J." When someone says they're disappointed in me, I simply consider it their problem. I encounter this with my mom (INFJ). Went through it with my INFJ ex too. And my ISTJ dad ... and so on.



That's what I did. The idea was crap to me and so I used the type dynamics to explain why you (almost solely) would care to make such a suggestion. Call it stereotyping all you want, but that's what personality typing is. I didn't go "oh there's that INTJ, here is my chance to attack her for being who she is!" I went "oh man that's a horrible idea -- and look, it's being suggested by an INTJ! <insert cartoon exclamation mark above head>" Based on the other replies and just general knowledge of MBTI, it is quite obvious that the P/J difference is at play here. To ignore that on a forum like this would be silly.

Say a Neo-Nazi comes on the board and starts talking about how he dislikes black people. I point out that it's probably because he's a Neo-Nazi, and maybe he should tone down the racist comments, since we are generally not a racist forum. I'm discriminating? Hah.


If you post on a type-related forum and never make the connection between different types acting differently, then well.. I don't really know what to say.

I am (right now) feeling very unwelcome here garak. Very unwelcome indeed. If others feel that they want this to be a site for INTPs only and exclusively, I will bow out. I'm wondering whether the stage has been reached where a poll should be taken on this issue.

Otherwise I will remain here and express my views unreservedly, as do the INTPs on this site.

Regarding this thread, I thought that I had made an important point that needed to be made, regarding liability. My arguments are not actually based on a desire to "censor" peoples' views, but rather on genuine concerns that the site owners may actually be exposing themselves to liability by allowing certain types of material to be posted here. If the Admins do not accept that potential risk, that is their prerogative not to do so.

[garak]

I am (right now) feeling very unwelcome here garak. Very unwelcome indeed. If others feel that they want this to be a site for INTPs only and exclusively, I will bow out. I'm wondering whether the stage has been reached where a poll should be taken on this issue.

Otherwise I will remain here and express my views unreservedly, as do the INTPs on this site.

My suggestion -- well, my implicit one anyways -- was for you to remain here but "chill" a bit. I'm not sure why you describe it as an all-or-nothing thing. I'll repeat it:


When I go to the ENTP forums I practically tiptoe around. I hardly post (well they're just not that busy for that matter), and when I do, I am very careful to chime in without steering the conversation away from being ENTP-oriented. It's "their" place, just like as INTPs, this is "our" place. Not that others can't join in, but they should be considerate about not changing the general atmosphere of the place.

Seems pretty straightforward to me. This is a place for and about INTPs, but not exclusively. People of all types are welcome, but they should realize that the general tone of the forums is that of INTPs. If people come here and disrupt this relative state of harmony, they should expect problems. Posting a thread about how best to censor and limit discussions on the forum is IMO very threatening and imposing to an INTP.

In fact it reminds me of your many mentions of stereotyping and discrimination -- maybe the problem is that you don't think about the difference between INTP and INTJ, and just post without regard to how your different way of viewing things might impact everyone else. An INTJ is quite different from an INTP, and you should be considerate of that. I could go on the ENTP forums and post about how extroverts need to stop talking so damn much, but it'd be a pretty dumb move. You posting about what new rules "should" be instated here is doing the same thing with regard to P/J. I remember someone once commenting on how they couldn't stand being in relationships with Js, because of their constant "should" mentality. When you use a title saying what "should not be allowed," it is not very P-friendly. Although I could be stereotyping; maybe I'm wrong. But I think that's generally pretty accurate.


Regarding this thread, I thought that I had made an important point that needed to be made, regarding liability. My arguments are not actually based on a desire to "censor" peoples' views, but rather on genuine concerns that the site owners may actually be exposing themselves to liability by allowing certain types of material to be posted here. If the Admins do not accept that potential risk, that is their prerogative not to do so.
I don't think I've ever heard of a discussion board getting into legal troubles because of people talking about drugs or suicide or whatever. There are some message boards out there which are MUCH larger than INTP Central and also MUCH more extreme in content. INTPs thrive on the ability to freely talk and analyze anything -- I think putting more limits on what we can talk about would be a horrible idea.

[jyakulis]

(4) Miscellaneous illegal activities(such as drugs or bombs)


i'm outta here

[Mr. Good Beats]

If others feel that they want this to be a site for INTPs only and exclusively, I will bow out.

i vote stay. i know in reading threads, the 'non-intp's' add a different dynamic to thier arguments or whatever. not having the likes of songbird, creativechaos, and the other 'non-intp' here would take a little bit away. it's kind of nice to read some 'heavy' stuff then go find a thread in which CC has been posting on.

furthermore you're here and have not been banned, so why should it be up to 'intp's' to decide if you go or not? that's about as ridiculous as saying certain topics should not be discussed. (illegal matter does not count)

besides we're all people. if you cut me, do i not bleed? if i cut you, do you not bleed?

[songbird36]

I do see your point and sorry to be disputatious garak but this forum is full of threads about what "should" happen (posted by INTPs). The rants and raves section is full of them (example: we shouldn't have political correctness, was one topic today). But why do people complain about this happening when the view is expressed by an INTJ? And why am I jumped on for posting a view in the Suggestions box, which is *precisely* for the purpose of "shoulds"?

I could have arrived on this forum and chosen not to disclose that I am an INTJ. I don't think anyone would have noticed whether I was or not, and I presume my views would have then been more acceptable.

I think the bottom line here is that I *should* post less because I am an INTJ. Is that what you are saying?

[coffeezombie]

That's stupid to make this site for INTPs only. That means non-INTPs will just say they are INTPs just to get on here. It will solve nothing. People on here already falsely claim to be INTPs, actually.

[songbird36]

That's stupid to make this site for INTPs only. That means non-INTPs will just say they are INTPs just to get on here. It will solve nothing. People on here already falsely claim to be INTPs, actually.

Yes and I have to say I am a little mystified by this "non-INTP" style argument.

The biggest variations I have observed (apart from those between the INFs on here and the INTs) are actually between INTPs themselves.

There are some *radically* different ideas, and posting styles, as between INTPs themselves (example: Booyalab versus Waxwing, Tragula versus Geoff). So what's the big deal? Why can't we disagree sometimes, and have different styles?

[garak]

I do see your point and sorry to be disputatious garak but this forum is full of threads about what "should" happen (posted by INTPs). The rants and raves section is full of them (example: we shouldn't have political correctness, was one topic today). But why do people complain about this happening when the view is expressed by an INTJ? And why am I jumped on for posting a view in the Suggestions box, which is *precisely* for the purpose of "shoulds"?

You do make a good point; it's not simply the word "should." In a way it's hard to articulate, but in my mind there is a pretty black and white difference between how Js and Ps discuss pretty much everything. Like I mentioned -- look at the responses in this thread from INTPs.


I could have arrived on this forum and chosen not to disclose that I am an INTJ. I don't think anyone would have noticed whether I was or not, and I presume my views would have then been more acceptable.
I think it's pretty obvious that you're an INTJ. Us stereotyping you is not the problem -- the problem is that INTPs and INTJs have very fundamental differences that can often cause problems. Notions ("stereotypes") about how different types relate to each other aren't just conjured up out of nowhere.


I think the bottom line here is that I *should* post less because I am an INTJ. Is that what you are saying?
No, just be more considerate of the situation. If you go around saying whatever you feel without regard for the fact that this is a place dominated by INTPs, then you will have problems. I wouldn't go to an INTJ forum and make a thread about how they should just "relax" and ditch their rules.

[Vagabond]

I think the bottom line here is that I *should* post less because I am an INTJ. Is that what you are saying? He is saying that you should accept we are somewhat different and stop taking the differences that naturally exist as a personal attack. INTPs kick INTPs ass all the time. You are the one bringing the INTP/INTJ issue up all the time. You were pissed at Edmond for mentioning it all the time, and I thought you were right, but you keep doing it. I disagree with you because you don't back up the alledged facts, not because you are an INTJ. You could be the exact same type with me, with the exact same percentages for all I care. You are saying it is *in your opinion* wrong to talk about suicide, I respect it, but I disagree. If however you are saying it is *legally* wrong, show us the data. It has nothing to do with your type or my type (I am very INTJish anyway), it has everything to do with *presenting your personal opinion as a fact when you don't back it up as a fact*. You said the admins choose to ignore the risks - I would ignore risks that are imaginary and unreal any day. If they aren't, please show us your sources.

[coffeezombie]

The biggest variations I have observed (apart from those between the INFs on here and the INTs) are actually between INTPs themselves.

There are some *radically* different ideas, and posting styles, as between INTPs themselves (example: Booyalab versus Waxwing, Tragula versus Geoff). So what's the big deal? Why can't we disagree sometimes, and have different styles?

Perhaps the MBTI isn't so accurate when it comes to describing true personality. I prefer the Enneagram myself. When I type people in my head, it explains most of the variation that I see.

["InsertNameHere"]

well, i know i like to debate and INTP's like to debate for fun... There are different views because we all come from different backgrounds. Of course we wouldn't think the same. We are individuals, damnit! :nerd:

[songbird36]

Ok garak let's unpack some of these perceived "differences" please.

I presume that one of them, is my supposed "emphatic" style of posting (i.e. I post my views in a strong and definite way). Well so does Zedo (he says things like "I'm right and you're wrong" which I would never ever even consider saying). So do others (Thermo for example often posts views very strongly and dogmatically).

I'm not meaning to attack or criticise any individuals here, I was just using them as examples to illustrate my point.

Are there other differences that you think are causing problems?

[SensEye]

Im OK with suicide threads. Do more good than harm IMHO. Illegal activity subjects like drug use are fine with me too (Utopmk had some fascinating information on these subjects some time back). I am disappointed in the amount of media piracy talk around here, I've had to go elsewhere for assitance. Child porn has never been an issue.

Don't fret the legal red herring. There's all sorts of crap out there on the internet. How many non-commercial sites ever get sued? That's right, none. Lawyers are only interested in money, not principles, they know when they can't get blood from a stone.

[songbird36]

There has also been a case involving incitement of hatred via a non-commercial web site for the National Front, or something like that. Kervokian's Euthanasia web site was also cracked down on. I will go and gather the evidence now and post it.

But actually I don't want this thread turning nasty to be honest. Why don't the admins can it, if it's causing problems? I'm OK with that.

[jimkopelli]

hate to presume, but I guess they figure its better to let it run its course...

[songbird36]

OK here's one ISP that has an "acceptable use policy" because of liability concerns (which are referred to on the site linked below). I'll find some others.

http://www.iinet.com/aup_web.php

[coffeezombie]

I'm guessing Harold and Maude will not be one of the movies songbird suggests watching when we have our INTP board get-together.

[songbird36]

Here's another ISP acceptable use policy:

http://www.freedom255.net/aup.php

[Division56]

I'm guessing Harold and Maude will not be one of the movies songbird suggests watching when we have our INTP board get-together.

I LOVE that movie...

[garak]

Ok garak let's unpack some of these perceived "differences" please.

I presume that one of them, is my supposed "emphatic" style of posting (i.e. I post my views in a strong and definite way). Well so does Zedo (he says things like "I'm right and you're wrong" which I would never ever even consider saying). So do others (Thermo for example often posts views very strongly and dogmatically).
It's too nuanced to really try and say "emphatic means J" or something like that. Zedo doesn't come off as an INTJ. Thermo, IIRC, comes off as being immature and possibly an INTJ. (not that INTJs are immature, but an immature INTP could act more INTJ-ish)


Are there other differences that you think are causing problems?
There's no way I can just be like

1. stop doing this
2. do this
...
3. problem solved

I feel like I have explained it in a reasonably straightfoward manner. Be reasonable, and don't make a spectacle of yourself.

[songbird36]

Here's a link to a discussion of the outcome of Yahoo's appeal in the E-Bay case (Nazi memorabilia). The case was actually very interesting as it discussed whether the US Constitution free speech rights should prevail over French domestic laws banning racial hatred incitement:

http://www.macnewsworld.com/story/40555.html

[songbird36]

I feel like I have explained it in a reasonably straightfoward manner. Be reasonable, and don't make a spectacle of yourself.

lol.

I'll try not to interpret that comment as being talked down to.

Enough said, can this thread if you feel so inclined.

[Shai Gar]

very true senseye

[garak]

I meant it in a manner similar to what Vagabond said. I feel like we're going in circles and continuing to blab about it feels tiring.

[songbird36]

agreed.

[Shai Gar]

so this argument is finally over?

[songbird36]

Yep. I lost :lol:

[Shai Gar]

indeed, it was a dying argument 84 posts ago. now finally you can throw your weight behind another topid that could actually be enjoyable for everyone and not just you as you love to argue

[songbird36]

indeed, it was a dying argument 84 posts ago. now finally you can throw your weight behind another topid that could actually be enjoyable for everyone and not just you as you love to argue

Well you're a stroppy wee thing tonight.

Jemma been messing with your head again? :lol:

[Shai Gar]

no infact she did something that made me amused and happy. and that post wasnt written stroppily, it was written optimisticlly

[mgb]

There should be freedom of speech on the site. I am not going to say anything that I wil be liable for so I am not too worried about that. Why doesn't everyone let the admins worry about something that they might get sued over?

Usually as INTPs, we talk about the why of stuff and not so much the how. Sometimes the how is the why (like the suicide thread), as in why would you choose that method.

I think the entire thread has been a knee jerk reaction.

Most of the other arguments about things like child porn are just bullshit because it's stuff that won't fly here anyways.

[Shai Gar]

indeed

[Helios]

Well somewhat late I'll chime in.

Firstly songbird and all the nons really add a needed contrast to the standard INTP mode. please please stay!

Secondly, I abhore rules and all types, but 3X extra for unneeded regulations!


Myself, I have got close to suicide before ,it was good I think to talk about it openly. I could never do such in RL .

Yeah, I am (almost)straight and (absolutely)male,but it is cool, I 'll dig gays and women............ :devil:


On a semi-related note, my childhood was "sexualized" ,and if/when I ever choose to talk about that, I don't need any limits on what I can say.

Lastly, Ummm I know nothing 'bout downloading files,I swear Mr. RIAA!!!! :whistle: :whistle:


Really I think the crowd here is pretty self regulating, and no formal rules are needed. When something isn't good it gets shut down.



P.S. We love you songbird........... :smooch: :smooch:

[Shai Gar]

heh

[songbird36]

Well somewhat late I'll chime in.

Firstly songbird and all the nons really add a needed contrast to the standard INTP mode. please please stay!

P.S. We love you songbird........... :smooch: :smooch:

Luv u 2 hon...:smooch:

like your refreshing posts on here too.

(on no I'm turning into CC..heeellpppp)...

[Shai Gar]

how much longer can this thread survive?

[songbird36]

how much longer can this thread survive?

It died about 10 posts ago.

It's now in the throes of Rigor Mortis..thrashing around in a very scary fashion...

[Shai Gar]

yep, with two very stubborn people trying to get the last word in.

[songbird36]

yep, with two very stubborn people trying to get the last word in.

Least I'm not emotionally immature...

:rofl:

[Shai Gar]

at least i am not INTJ ;)

[Miss Anthropic]

OK, I know I'm late for the party...not even fashionably late. I'll write what I was going to write before the thread became obsolete. I Wouldn't want you to leave songbird...This whole thread was centered around "borrowing trouble" so ditto what mgbradsh said. Ha! Did I get the last word?

[songbird36]

OK, I know I'm late for the party...not even fashionably late. I'll write what I was going to write before the thread became obsolete. I Wouldn't want you to leave songbird...This whole thread was centered around "borrowing trouble" so ditto what mgbradsh said. Ha! Did I get the last word?


Are you suggesting I'm a stirrer? If so you'd better get me a damn big paddle Miss..

[Shai Gar]

you have a paddle, and you insist upon the J stroke :D

[songbird36]

you have a paddle, and you insist upon the J stroke :D

Well whatever stroke it is..it will be a stroke of pure genius :lol:

Ha I got the LAST word!

[Miss Anthropic]

Oh yeah? Well I've got a big paddle and you can use it to spank Shai Gar after you stir things up! Last word...nah-nah...

[Shai Gar]

you two are incoragable

[Miss Anthropic]

you two are incoragable
Actually I really think we are incorrigible....no, I know we are!

[Shai Gar]

thank you miss podantic. no really i wanted you to correct my spelling. it isnt as if i strive for perfect spelling elsewhere and would like a break today. but yet again, thank you

[melancholeric]

thank you miss podantic. no really i wanted you to correct my spelling. it isnt as if i strive for perfect spelling elsewhere and would like a break today. but yet again, thank you
Pedantic.

[Miss Anthropic]

:rofl: Thanks mel...

[Shai Gar]

i knew i would get someone

[Miss Anthropic]

Damn you're quick!

[Shai Gar]

what is your problem with me anthropic, lets discuss it here and now.

[Miss Anthropic]

what is your problem with me anthropic, lets discuss it here and now.
Oh don't be silly. I've enjoyed parrying and jabbing back and forth with you this evening--er morning. I think I appreciate you more after having razzed you all evening. You are just so controversial in all the stuff you post...you could take something benign and get people stirred up with your presentation.

[Shai Gar]

well of course. it is more fun that way, it is nicer to know i have a fun competitor than someone else who hates me on this forum

[Geoff]

Personally, no I don't. I don't have any idea how letters on someone's computer monitor can be offensive or hurtful. I have already stated in a previous post that it is pretty hard to insult me over the internet (even in person it can be hard). We all have made up names here, we can change names to become a new person whenever we want. I don't know why people have to take things so personally when the internet is so impersonal.


Yup. I think if only INTPs were allowed here there would probably only be one rule, "Don't say anything illegal." and even that would be bent all the time. I think the rules here are more to protect the sensitive nature of other personality types.

It's patently untrue that something on the internet 'does not exist' legally -or is not hurtful or offensive just because it on a computer. Email and private messages have been legally upheld as both evidence, and also as libel etc.
Freedom of speed on the internet only legally exists to the extent it exists legally in any other form of communication. Now, policing it actively is a separate issue. But to think that 'its on the internet so I cant be prosecuted' is a dangerous attitude to take, and usually wrong in most jurisdictions. And yes I am legally trained (although I do not practice as a lawyer)

-Geoff

[Shai Gar]

thank you for the input. but most of us here wont sue each other for libel nor will we legally condone any illegal activity. the onus is on us.

[Geoff]

I don't think I've ever heard of a discussion board getting into legal troubles because of people talking about drugs or suicide or whatever. There are some message boards out there which are MUCH larger than INTP Central and also MUCH more extreme in content. INTPs thrive on the ability to freely talk and analyze anything -- I think putting more limits on what we can talk about would be a horrible idea.

There was some discussion of this very point in the UK the other day - interesting discussion on a news programme, was quite a, well, difficult area for everyone. Various bodies pushing for tighter restrictions and an 'incitement' style legal approach to pro suicide forums - yet a desire to preserve freedom of speech (a big British 'thing). This was in the light of a recent suicide (very sad, really) of a young man egged on by a chat group. i think no firm conclusions were reached legally. There is a fair amount in the news, really, if you look out for it... look at :

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/10/valentine.suicide/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/01/27/internet_suicide_chat_room_killer/

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=1&id=327949

So there are clearly some vulnerable people out there, and in the first case someone was prosecuted for soliciting murder due to encouraging suicides. And the records of chats/forums were taken by the police.

Its clearly a difficult area, where it would be sensible to take caution. I think it is an acceptable subject for discussion but encouragement should be banned (perhaps a rule to prevent the encouragement of users to commit self-harm?) as this could lead to prosecution behind which a liability disclaimer is unlikely to be a valid defence in many jurisdictions. A disclaimer does not allow the owners to avoid the duty of care they would normally owe - it only removes them from damage over and above a regular duty of care.

That much I would suggest is necessary.

As for desirable, I would say to limit discussions on subjects for which the young are not well enough prepared to deal to be placed within the mature section, suicide like drugs and sex are not something for the young and vulnerable to be exposed to before they reach a legal majority. Remember that in many cases a child of say 12 is not considered to legally commit a crime or have an understanding of what they do.. this includes those mature subjects.

Oh, and the right of any one person to have freedom of speech must surely be tempered by obvious harm, hatred and illegality. Otherwise anarchy ensues. Would you encourage freedom of speech where you passed detailed plans of how to attack a terrorist target? or how to abuse children? I expect not. The only question is therefore whether suicide threads fall within that heading or not. Which ultimately is of course subjective, but with a body of increasing legal involvement and, well, the occasions when the vulnerable will take action to hurt themselves means we should at least be careful in our approach.

Balanced, I hope. And not in any way interested in who or what has a right to say anything. And types are totally irrelevant here.

-Geoff

[indie]

IRONY = the closest thing this site has ever experienced regarding "Child Porn" was when songbird herself posted that pic of her boys in their PJ's . . . anyone remember that?

I know MacGuffin did, and he's a lawyer, right?

[Geoff]

Here's a link to a discussion of the outcome of Yahoo's appeal in the E-Bay case (Nazi memorabilia). The case was actually very interesting as it discussed whether the US Constitution free speech rights should prevail over French domestic laws banning racial hatred incitement:

http://www.macnewsworld.com/story/40555.html

I followed this one through the courts, it was quite an interesting one. That countries seem to assume their jurisdiction extends to places and people that are outside of their locale and citizen 'spread' is quite a bold approach.
Co-operation (say by way of extradition treaties and combined intelligence on things like child porn) are the only way these problems get sorted otherwise it descends into a legal mess. And who needs more legal messes.

-Geoff

[Shai Gar]

so why not base this forum in finland and use a finish ISP, they have no computer laws

[Utopmk]

(4) Miscellaneous illegal activities (such as how to make drugs or bombs etc)


Nope. :dont:

[songbird36]

Nope. :dont:

Mike did anyone ask for your opinion?

:lol:

[melancholeric]

Didn't you ask for opinions?

[Boneca]

Gah, you people write 7 pages before I even got here...

Anyway, I have two questions: first of all, what is the legal status of a message board? Personally, I tend to see it as a simple conversation, but does it count as "published" material? I remember the case of the guy who overdosed because he was egged on by a chatgroup, but the owner of the chatroom can't really be blamed for that, can he? If that's the case, this world is truly crazy.
Secondly, if we talk about "illegal" things, I wonder, illegal where? Are we following U.S. laws, our own laws, the laws of whatever country the server is located in? Not that I think they differ very much when it comes to more explosive stuff like making bombs (pun intended), but I'm still curious.

Of course I don't want the admins to get into trouble, but I must admit I think this is ridiculous. (And I'm not saying you're ridiculous, Songbird, you might be correct - in that case the laws are ridiculous). We should be able to have a sensible discussion also on sensitive topics.

[songbird36]

Gah, you people write 7 pages before I even got here...

Anyway, I have two questions: first of all, what is the legal status of a message board? Personally, I tend to see it as a simple conversation, but does it count as "published" material? I remember the case of the guy who overdosed because he was egged on by a chatgroup, but the owner of the chatroom can't really be blamed for that, can he? If that's the case, this world is truly crazy.
Secondly, if we talk about "illegal" things, I wonder, illegal where? Are we following U.S. laws, our own laws, the laws of whatever country the server is located in? Not that I think they differ very much when it comes to more explosive stuff like making bombs (pun intended), but I'm still curious.

Of course I don't want the admins to get into trouble, but I must admit I think this is ridiculous. (And I'm not saying you're ridiculous, Songbird, you might be correct - in that case the laws are ridiculous). We should be able to have a sensible discussion also on sensitive topics.

Thanks B. I never meant to suggest that these liability principles are *right*. I was simply being pragmatic and trying to point out that this is the way internet law is developing internationally. ISPs and site owners now have to be very careful.

It's also not an issue about censorship (although I have to say my view is fairly strong that suicide talk should be censored, but others here disagree so I'm not pushing that barrow any further).

My comment to Mike was a joke. He and I know each other quite well.

[heeroyuy]

Also, this may be a little late in the game, as the host for the forums I don't really care to see things blatantly illegal such as "how to produce X drug" but discussions of the implications of using X drug is fine. This is a liability thing, and frankly my boss will chop my head off if I get our servers taken away by a three lettered government organization thanks to some fool posting instructions on how to make a bong.

Then again, illegal content is already covered in rules I believe.

Also-as an afterthought, we don't have common carrier status, I as a server do, but that still means they could screw us over (they being the MAN) if they wanted to. We do have some leeway as this is a public forum for expression and they can't do much, but if we did things totally illegal such as posting government material here, or even things like how to make drugs.

Just my $0.02.

[songbird36]

Well yes, self-evidently if you were ever prosecuted or sued you would certainly have a "freedom of expression" defence available to you (based on the US Constitution).

But how far that would wash with the courts vis-a-vis illegal activity, I really don't know.

[Arioch]

I wonder if part of the reason this thread.. exploded in comparisment with other threads was a perceived attempt to impose authority on the forum. Something that will almost generally cause a knee-jerk reaction to oppose it.

As to the idea that non-INTP types are not welcome... I think that this is not the case here. Actually I think there is a typological conflict here which causes such a opinion to form but I'm not quite sure if it's quite polite to psychoanalyse someone like that on a forum....

I'll give that some thought.

[songbird36]

I wonder if part of the reason this thread.. exploded in comparisment with other threads was a perceived attempt to impose authority on the forum. Something that will almost generally cause a knee-jerk reaction to oppose it.

Didn't I tell you I'm a card-carrying member of the Thought Police?

[Arioch]

Didn't I tell you I'm a card-carrying member of the Thought Police?

I heard of that rumor. Thats whhy I have sophisticated psi-shields into place. Guaranteed to confuse people into oblivion

[Sir Isaac Lime]

I wouldn't worry too much about encouraging people to make LSD

a) you could find out how in 20 seconds using google
b) you'd need to be an extremly skilled chemist
c) you'd need a professional laboratory

[Division56]

I wouldn't worry too much about encouraging people to make LSD

a) you could find out how in 20 seconds using google
b) you'd need to be an extremly skilled chemist
c) you'd need a professional laboratory

I think Crystal Meth is more likely, it's easy you see. You need a bunch of....

Oh wait.


:whistle: :ph34r: :whistle:

[heeroyuy]

My mentalic l337ness is too great for the thought police, just remember, my golden floating orb is bigger and denser than your floating orb-in fact, yours is probably one of them red or blue floating orbs.

[Utopmk]

Mike did anyone ask for your opinion?

My opinion is that you should expect it. Your ideas for diluting this forum don't go over well with me. And no discussion of sexual activities..hypocritical, don't you think?

I just suggest an elaborate disclaimer.

[nobarcode]

OK in response to Div's suggestion to air this issue in the Suggestions area, here are my suggestions for topics which either should not be allowed at all, or which should be moderated very carefully:

(1) Suicide (any discussion of why to or how to);

(2) Any threads which encourage or incite blatant prejudice or hatred of a sector of forum members (such as women or gays);

(3) Child porn or sexual activity;

(4) Miscellaneous illegal activities (such as how to make drugs or bombs etc)

I'm not suggesting you get all "Big Brotherish" - merely that there are some things which need careful treatment. There may be criminal liability issues for the site owners as well.
What does it take Songbird, to convince you that we have heard your suggestion/s? If, as it seems, "we" disagree, how do you suggest "we" respond to you? In addition, if you disagree with the majority of sentiment expressed here, then why are you here? I am open to the answers to these questions; I'm curious.

[int]

And no discussion of sexual activities..hypocritical, don't you think?I think she just meant sexual activities regarding children.

If we see any of that it will be removed asap.

[Geoff]

I think she just meant sexual activities regarding children.

If we see any of that it will be removed asap.

Nah that comment had more to it than that. I'd let it go!

-Geoff

[tragula]

Hmm. Also chiming in late.

I happen to agree with Songbird, almost entirely. I don't think the thoughts of a small handful of members can be considered definitive. Why don't people do polls on topics like these!!!

I think perhaps discussions "about" things like suicide are ok. Such as a thread titled "Why would someone kill themselves."

But the fact of the matter is that a discussion about methods is quite possibly a cry for help. And an abundance of caution should require people to treat it as such.

This may seem paternalistic. And it is. But paternalism is a much maligned philosophical stance when dealing with potentially immature and impulsive human beings.

I was a little bothered by some threads with terrorism content. We NYC dwellers don't joke much about that stuff.... And I also think they were risking some very unwanted govt attention.

Lastly, I think all this typism is bogus. Discriminating against people because of a letter is ridiculous. Perhaps the title of this website is discriminatory actually.... (Any votes for changing it to something non-typist!?! Thinktank.com jungtypes.com. bigbrainsareus.com Oh great, now I'm going to attract the wrath of all!!! Hasta la vista guys!! ;-)

And ease up on songbird. Jeez....

[Vagabond]

Lastly, I think all this typism is bogus. This is a type-based board though. You knew that from the start.


Discriminating against people because of a letter is ridiculous. I agree. But declaring you are of a different type or stating the basic differences between types isn't discrimination.


Perhaps the title of this website is discriminatory actually.... Why is it discriminatory to form a group (or board in this case) with the purpose to attract others that share a common characteristic? Is a science board discriminatory because not everyone is a scientist?


Any votes for changing it to something non-typist!?! The name of the board is not up for a poll.

[songbird36]

This is a type-based board though. You knew that from the start.

I agree. But declaring you are of a different type or stating the basic differences between types isn't discrimination.

Why is it discriminatory to form a group (or board in this case) with the purpose to attract others that share a common characteristic? Is a science board discriminatory because not everyone is a scientist?

The name of the board is not up for a poll.

Vaga I think Booyalab would accuse you of having a splinter up the bum for this post :lol:

[Shai Gar]

Do you seriously want me to fuck you?

:lol:
give me a bit to get some of my mojo back, then yeah sure, why not

[songbird36]

give me a bit to get some of my mojo back, then yeah sure, why not

I wasn't talking to you. Was talking to someone whose views I just happened to agree 100% with...

:lol:

[jimkopelli]

Thought you decided you were taken...

not that that should be any deterrent to any openminded individual who wants to...

[songbird36]

Thought you decided you were taken...

not that that should be any deterrent to any openminded individual who wants to...

You're not being very logical tonight if you can't understand my last two posts...

[jimkopelli]

Ya, ya, I know.

I'm hopped up on cold medicine and still need to catch up on sleep.

Excuse my idiocy for tonight, please.

[songbird36]

Better than being certain Minnesota-bound people

:lol:

[jimkopelli]

Not necessarily... bleh.

[Sir Isaac Lime]

Sexual favors in exchange for approval of opinion? The current topic of this thread has gone into murkey waters and frankly, i'm not sure we should be discussing it. Think about it: Some little girl could be reading this and end up becoming a whore.

[songbird36]

Sexual favors in exchange for approval of opinion? The current topic of this thread has gone into murkey waters and frankly, i'm not sure we should be discussing it. Think about it: Some little girl could be reading this and end up becoming a whore.

You're just jealous 'cos you have to resort to ancient Indian burial sites for your favours...

[mgb]

Lastly, I think all this typism is bogus. Discriminating against people because of a letter is ridiculous. Perhaps the title of this website is discriminatory actually.... (Any votes for changing it to something non-typist!?! Thinktank.com jungtypes.com. bigbrainsareus.com Oh great, now I'm going to attract the wrath of all!!! Hasta la vista guys!! ;-)


That's an interesting stance from the guy that started a thread about an intellectual defense for the objectification of women.

Why change the site when you can start your own, less discriminating forum on types.

Somehow this site has become the pre-eminent type forum on the internet (in my opinion, based on a look at other type sites). As such, despite the name, we get a lot of other types on here. Fine. But the site was created to be a meeting place for one type, not all types. Do INTPs share the exact same opinions and ways of doing things as other types? All the data you have managed to collect on the 23 poll threads you've started may indicate that INTPs don't think the same way as the other types. So when someone of another type comes along and forces their "type" (and all the opinions and ways of doing things that come with that) on the forum, you are going to get a reaction.

If songbird wants to open up the can of worms that comes with challenging the opinions of the group, then she is going to have to take her licks.

In my opinion, creating a more paternalistic site is going to detract from the quality of members as well as the number of INTPs (I think that goes hand in hand). If someone has problems enough to make a thread about how to kill themselves, they are probably going to do it regardless of any sort of consensus they will get here. And the problems they have probably run much deeper than anyone on here will ever know. So for the rest of us, it's just more information gathering.

[Shai Gar]

Brad, leave it at that, if they dont get it after that post they never will.

[songbird36]

What does it take Songbird, to convince you that we have heard your suggestion/s? If, as it seems, "we" disagree, how do you suggest "we" respond to you? In addition, if you disagree with the majority of sentiment expressed here, then why are you here? I am open to the answers to these questions; I'm curious.

I'm not sure why people are getting so upset about this suggestion thread. I was just putting some ideas out (as people do on here).

Others have disaagreed with my view -that's fine.

What's the problem nobarcode? I enjoy being here and debating views -that is why I am here.

[Shai Gar]

because you and i agreed that this argument was over at post #84. there are other arguments going on and you are still favouring this dead one instead of debating live ones

now excuse me NCIS is on

[Claverhouse]

Hmm. Also chiming in late.

I happen to agree with Songbird, almost entirely. I don't think the thoughts of a small handful of members can be considered definitive. Why don't people do polls on topics like these!!!

I think perhaps discussions "about" things like suicide are ok. Such as a thread titled "Why would someone kill themselves."

But the fact of the matter is that a discussion about methods is quite possibly a cry for help. And an abundance of caution should require people to treat it as such.

This may seem paternalistic. And it is. But paternalism is a much maligned philosophical stance when dealing with potentially immature and impulsive human beings.
I've urged a rather more cautious stance with regard to suicide threads as not being wholly beneficial --- not because ultimately I care a great deal if people commit suicide, any more than I can care about everyone who crosses the great divide; but because I shouldn't like to have helped. I can't see the point of banning philosophical discussion though. Still, I think Paternalism rocks, as another even more revered member might put it.


I was a little bothered by some threads with terrorism content. We NYC dwellers don't joke much about that stuff.... And I also think they were risking some very unwanted govt attention.
Get over it... Dresden lost a lot more people from terrorist planes 60 years ago. They don't spend their time running about like Chicken Licken.

And I can't really imagine the FBI, CIA, NSA or the Department of Homeland Security, no matter how ludicrous they really are, scanning these pages. If sometimes we INTPs think our life sucks, think how much worse it would be to read every forum on the internet. Including the Bestiality and Knitting forums.


Lastly, I think all this typism is bogus. Discriminating against people because of a letter is ridiculous. Perhaps the title of this website is discriminatory actually.... (Any votes for changing it to something non-typist!?! Thinktank.com jungtypes.com. bigbrainsareus.com Oh great, now I'm going to attract the wrath of all!!! Hasta la vista guys!! ;-)

And ease up on songbird. Jeez....
I've nothing against discrimination per se, it's a form of individualistic self-expression. Still, Type is merely a tool, not the Secret of the Universe. I don't mind any letters coming here if they want, and take their seats quietly and respectfully.

Like CC.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[tragula]

This is a type-based board though. You knew that from the start.

I agree. But declaring you are of a different type or stating the basic differences between types isn't discrimination.

Why is it discriminatory to form a group (or board in this case) with the purpose to attract others that share a common characteristic? Is a science board discriminatory because not everyone is a scientist?

The name of the board is not up for a poll.



Why change the site when you can start your own, less discriminating forum on types.

Somehow this site has become the pre-eminent type forum on the internet (in my opinion, based on a look at other type sites). As such, despite the name, we get a lot of other types on here. Fine. But the site was created to be a meeting place for one type, not all types. Do INTPs share the exact same opinions and ways of doing things as other types?

In my opinion, creating a more paternalistic site is going to detract from the quality of members as well as the number of INTPs.


I appreciate the thoughtful non-viscious replies! In order:

Yeah, I knew it was a type based board. But perhaps I didn't think carefully about what that meant. It seems to me that after a short while people seem to get tired of talking about what it means to be INTP, and that the vast majority of threads and sections are devoted to other topics or MBTI in general.

I think that organizations that serve the purpose of advancing the rights of minorities are important and meaningful, even if they are generally comprised of only a certain Type of person. E.g.. NAACP

But when a place is essentially a social club built for the purposes of intellectual discussion, that is a different story entirely. Discrimination in that context amounts to saying that other types ain't that smart....

In the end only people with an interest in discussing abstract intellectual topics would come to a board like this one! Regardless of type. And different points of view only mean richer conversations.

I am aware that the name of the board is not up for a poll, I wasn't seriously suggesting that a vote could change that. But I was seriously pointing out the fact that the name is discriminatory. Especially if this place is going to almost inevitably evolve into the premier gathering spot for people of all MBTI types.

In my opinion creating a more paternalistic board would not detract from the quality of the site. It might be a little less like the Wild Wild West. But only a certain kind of flower will thrive in a hostile, dark, gloomy landscape....

_____________

Lastly, what's with all the people declaring a thread dead or an argument over. Unless people have proved their point to everyone's satisfaction an argument is not over. And saying it is doesn't make it so. ;P

[mgb]

I appreciate the thoughtful non-viscious replies! In order:

Yeah, I knew it was a type based board. But perhaps I didn't think carefully about what that meant. It seems to me that after a short while people seem to get tired of talking about what it means to be INTP, and that the vast majority of threads and sections are devoted to other topics or MBTI in general.

I think that organizations that serve the purpose of advancing the rights of minorities are important and meaningful, even if they are generally comprised of only a certain Type of person. E.g.. NAACP

But when a place is essentially a social club built for the purposes of intellectual discussion, that is a different story entirely. Discrimination in that context amounts to saying that other types ain't that smart....

In the end only people with an interest in discussing abstract intellectual topics would come to a board like this one! Regardless of type. And different points of view only mean richer conversations.

I am aware that the name of the board is not up for a poll, I wasn't seriously suggesting that a vote could change that. But I was seriously pointing out the fact that the name is discriminatory. Especially if this place is going to almost inevitably evolve into the premier gathering spot for people of all MBTI types.

In my opinion creating a more paternalistic board would not detract from the quality of the site. It might be a little less like the Wild Wild West. But only a certain kind of flower will thrive in a hostile, dark, gloomy landscape....



Saying that most of the threads aren't INTP specific might be a bit of misnomer. While we might start a thread on say, "What does F mean?" It is probably meant to understand what F means not become an F, and that type of understanding is a fundamental INTP ideal. We seek to understand and create from our understanding. Some other types probably find that hard to even understand.

You are right this place is a social club, to some extent. What you didn't say is that it is a club for like minded people. Its a place where people who have generally felt alone for a good chunk of their lives because they don't fit in, or who have weird sense of humor, or just don't think on the same level as everyone else, can come and enjoy like minded people. I don't think intelligence is related to type, but I do think we have a certain style that isn't agreeable to everyone in our conversations.

This place is not the social club for everyone that you might think. I remember when the whole Ghosteh thing happened, I was pretty pissed at Shai Gar for inviting him so I PMd him about it, he explained that he invited him here because they had some great intellectual discussions and he thought Ghosteh would really enjoy himself here(which made a lot of sense to me). It didn't really turn out that way though. In fact, I would wager that every person banned so far was not an INTP.

There are other forums for all types on the internet already. socionics has one. I am going to draw a line in the sand right here and say that we aren't the forum for everyone. We shouldn't evolve into a forum for everyone because as INTPs we have sought a place where we don't have to be like everyone.

I don't mind having other types here at all. They can be flambouyant, exciting, excitable, whatever. What they can't do is force their "type" on us. Typism goes both ways. And I am not just talking about letters, I think our personalities go much deeper than that. In fact, I would rather risk losing members of other types rather than INTPs because this place doesn't seem like it's INTP enough (whatever that means). Another great example of that was Edwin. He was an INFP. I didn't mind him but it was pretty clear that a lot of people did. Rather than turf the other people because they didn't accomodate him, I think it was fair to get rid of him.

As INTP Central, I am more than happy to be at a place that discriminates against other types. Because let's face it, when we turn our computers off, we are probably going to get discriminated against by other types in a much more wild wild west fashion than you get on here.

[songbird36]

Hmm. Well Mgbradsh you may recall that when I tried to set up a thread specifically for non-INTPs I got accused of discrimination.

I don't think we can apply a double standard here, do you? What are your suggestions for dealing with the issue you identify (namely that the board is not "INTP" enough)?

[mgb]

Hmm. Well Mgbradsh you may recall that when I tried to set up a thread specifically for non-INTPs I got accused of discrimination.

I don't think we can apply a double standard here, do you? What are your suggestions for dealing with the issue you identify (namely that the board is not "INTP" enough)?

Yes I do think there can be a double standard on here. I think there should be for the INTPs to feel at home here.

You starting that thread was like the Klu Klux Klan trying to book a table at Black Panthers Convention. You had an agenda, Lee is right.

This site isn't N Central. It isn't IN Central. It isn't even INT Central (as much as he would like it to be :) ). This site is INTP Central. It was no accident it got setup this way.

[songbird36]

Yes I do think there can be a double standard on here. I think there should be for the INTPs to feel at home here.

You starting that thread was like the Klu Klux Klan trying to book a table at Black Panthers Convention. You had an agenda, Lee is right.

This site isn't N Central. It isn't IN Central. It isn't even INT Central (as much as he would like it to be :) ). This site is INTP Central. It was no accident it got setup this way.

So just to clarify then, are you in fact suggesting that other types should not be allowed on here?

I want to clarify your position on this.

[snarled]

So just to clarify then, are you in fact suggesting that other types should not be allowed on here?

I want to clarify your position on this.


Methinks someone neeeeeeeeds a wubby!!!

;)

I'm probably allowed to go to a Black Panthers meeting, though sometimes I might feel slightly out of place.

[Star]

The thing that bothers me most about this is that I get the feeling other types see INTPs as easy prey, and we can be. Our open-mindedness can be seen as weakness, and I suspect that more authoritarian and dogmatic types enjoy taking advantage of it.

IMO, it's fine if other types are around, but when they try to dominate conversations with their distinctly non-INTP points of view, the quality of this forum is in serious danger.

[SensEye]

IMO, it's fine if other types are around, but when they try to dominate conversations with their distinctly non-INTP points of view, the quality of this forum is in serious danger.The fortuitous thing is that the types that could cause real problems (SJ's, SP's) would be bored to tears here.

That mainly leaves a few NF's and the odd NT that's not an INTP (INTJ's and maybe the odd ENTP might pass through). NF's are sweet and loveable by nature so they won't cause too much disruption. We can proably handle a few of the other types without too much problem.

[Eileen]

Songbird, it's clear that non-INTPs are *welcome* here, provided that we respect that the forum is mainly for INTPs, and thus the INTPs run the show. It's just one of those situations when we Js need to be comfortable giving up some control. We're here, we enjoy being here, but the rules aren't ours to make. We can complain and suggest and hopefully the INTPs in charge will respectfully address complaints and suggestions. I feel pretty confident that they will.

[Geoff]

Songbird, it's clear that non-INTPs are *welcome* here, provided that we respect that the forum is mainly for INTPs, and thus the INTPs run the show. It's just one of those situations when we Js need to be comfortable giving up some control. We're here, we enjoy being here, but the rules aren't ours to make. We can complain and suggest and hopefully the INTPs in charge will respectfully address complaints and suggestions. I feel pretty confident that they will.

That's quite enlightened. It is also a little more charitable towards human nature than I suspect you will see in practice! The problem is that types are just a generalisation. Underneath is all 'humans' and we tend to be an argumentative bunch. And we can easily develop a tribalist approach - we seem to be programmed to seek acceptance and then criticise and outsider to increase our own standing in the 'gang' and to feel inclusion.

It is like watching the seeding of a new racism, it is quite an interesting social study really!

-Geoff

[mgb]

So just to clarify then, are you in fact suggesting that other types should not be allowed on here?

I want to clarify your position on this.

I'm starting to get the feeling you are pretty low on the reading comprehension scale. And that is why I don't like replying to anything you say or ask.



I don't mind having other types here at all. They can be flambouyant, exciting, excitable, whatever.

[songbird36]

"There are other forums for all types on the internet already. socionics has one. I am going to draw a line in the sand right here and say that we aren't the forum for everyone. We shouldn't evolve into a forum for everyone because as INTPs we have sought a place where we don't have to be like everyone."

This was what you said in the same post. It doesn't help my comprehension Mg that you often contradict yourself in the same post. But thank you for clarifying, anyway.

[garak]

I don't see what's so hard to understand about having a place that is dedicated to and primarily for INTPs, while allowing other types to participate. Who cares about what nitpicky little inconsistency you can find in someone's posts? This is how the forum works and it is not up for debate.

[mgb]

"There are other forums for all types on the internet already. socionics has one. I am going to draw a line in the sand right here and say that we aren't the forum for everyone. We shouldn't evolve into a forum for everyone because as INTPs we have sought a place where we don't have to be like everyone."

This was what you said in the same post. It doesn't help my comprehension Mg that you often contradict yourself in the same post. But thank you for clarifying, anyway.

And thanks for proving my point, both specifically and in a general sense.

You have a much more black and white perspective on things. Some have called it a "J" way of thinking. From a comprehension perspective I have noticed that grey areas are very difficult for you to understand.

I said in my post that I don't mind other types here, but this is an INTP site, first and foremost, and not a site for all types, as tragula suggested it become. I think Eileen captured that quite succinctly in her post (suggesting that it may not be a "J" thing but a "songbird" thing).

And that's really all I have to say to you.

[songbird36]

And thanks for proving my point, both specifically and in a general sense.

You have a much more black and white perspective on things. Some have called it a "J" way of thinking. From a comprehension perspective I have noticed that grey areas are very difficult for you to understand.

I said in my post that I don't mind other types here, but this is an INTP site, first and foremost, and not a site for all types, as tragula suggested it become. I think Eileen captured that quite succinctly in her post (suggesting that it may not be a "J" thing but a "songbird" thing).

And that's really all I have to say to you.

This is very antagonistic. It's obvious you don't like me but I would really appreciate you not making that obvious in every response to one of my posts.

Thanks.

[Boneca]

Songbird, you're getting paranoid.

Yes, you can be on this board even if you're INTJ. Some people might not like you, but that's life. Probably there'd be someone who didn't like you on an all-type board too. Move on!

[songbird36]

There are rules here Boneca.

One is that personal attacks are not tolerated.

[Vagabond]

Songbird, it's clear that non-INTPs are *welcome* here, provided that we respect that the forum is mainly for INTPs, and thus the INTPs run the show. It's just one of those situations when we Js need to be comfortable giving up some control. We're here, we enjoy being here, but the rules aren't ours to make. We can complain and suggest and hopefully the INTPs in charge will respectfully address complaints and suggestions. I feel pretty confident that they will. Thank you. I was starting to feel desperation overwhelming me.

On a side note Eileen, I always find your posts insightful in general - being of a different type is irrelevant, I appreciate insightful and intelligent people of any type. My father is an INFJ (both my parents FJs) and I always enjoy seeing how the INFJ mind works when free of an agenda that involves me directly (such as the role of a parent is). It has helped me see the big picture better and understand INFJs (my father included) more.

[Vagabond]

There are rules here Boneca.

One is that personal attacks are not tolerated. Suggesting that you don't understand mgbradsh's points is hardly a personal attack. In your line of logic however, one might argue that accusing people of discrimination, is.

[garak]

Songbird, I can't recall seeing anyone else in this thread that also saw things from your point of view. Vagabond's comment about being overwhelmed by desperation was quite fitting.

Why can't we stop beating this dead horse?

[Geoff]

Well, I think we have descended into some somewhat pointless arguing. I did say I thought discussions on suicide should be restrained to the mature section just because of the vulnerability of the young. So it was a partial agreement, anyway!

-Geoff

[mgb]

Well, I think we have descended into some somewhat pointless arguing. I did say I thought discussions on suicide should be restrained to the mature section just because of the vulnerability of the young. So it was a partial agreement, anyway!

-Geoff

Sorry Geoff, but if I was 17, or maybe I should say when I was 17, having a mature section wouldn't have kept me out of it. To be honest I probably would have spent more time there than less :D

[melancholeric]

We need an age verification system of some kind there. Maybe ask for a credit card number?

[garak]

We need an age verification system of some kind there. Maybe ask for a credit card number?
Hah. I hope you are joking.

[Geoff]

Sorry Geoff, but if I was 17, or maybe I should say when I was 17, having a mature section wouldn't have kept me out of it. To be honest I probably would have spent more time there than less :D

Yes, I realise that, my opinion was based upon my take of the legal system -and the duty of care implied by allowing minors to register.

-Geoff

[mgb]

We need an age verification system of some kind there. Maybe ask for a credit card number?

Yeah, if you want to PM me with your credit card information I would be happy to verify everyone's age. Remember to put your expiration date on there, that is very important. haa haa

[melancholeric]

Hey, it was my idea! I want to be the official age verificator here!

[garak]

I think the main point of having a seperate but unrestricted "mature" forum is to simply give people the choice of avoiding the discussions there. Trying to reliably limit young people from visiting there is pretty much impossible and anything that was remotely effective would also keep most adults out. In either case, there is plenty of freely accessible stuff on the internet that is far worse than the nerdy discussions we have here. Having the forum set aside is equivalent to having a parental advisory on a CD, and I think that's as much as we should do.

[Geoff]

I think the main point of having a seperate but unrestricted "mature" forum is to simply give people the choice of avoiding the discussions there. Trying to reliably limit young people from visiting there is pretty much impossible and anything that was remotely effective would also keep most adults out. In either case, there is plenty of freely accessible stuff on the internet that is far worse than the nerdy discussions we have here. Having the forum set aside is equivalent to having a parental advisory on a CD, and I think that's as much as we should do.

I suppose at the end of the day that has to be true.. we can disclaim, and take care, but not much else. We should be vigilant against allowing some of the more, well, confrontational members from egging someone along I think. Hopefully common sense would prevail!

-Geoff

[Boneca]

There are rules here Boneca.

One is that personal attacks are not tolerated.Are you deliberately misunderstanding me?
What I am saying is just that - you seem to take everything as a personal attack, even when it's not at all meant to be. If somebody disagrees with you it could be simply that they don't agree with your view, not necessarily that they hate INTJ's.
I don't mind you (or other INTJ's) at all, and I think that goes for most of us here. I can't understand why you seem to feel that unliked?
And again, I say: if there are one or a few people that you don't get along with, just ignore them. You can't get along with everybody.
(Look at Shai Gar and melancholeric f.ex. - they obviously hate each other, but still post in the same forum. It's not that hard!)

[melancholeric]

(Look at Shai Gar and melancholeric f.ex. - they obviously hate each other, but still post in the same forum. It's not that hard!)
No we don't!!!!

I've called him a creative genius and whatnot, and now people tell me I hate him!

What is it that people choose to deliberately misunderstand me?

[songbird36]

Mgbradsh said my comprehension skills were low.

Hello..is that not an insult? Nothing paranoid about that.

[Geoff]

No we don't!!!!

I've called him a creative genius and whatnot, and now people tell me I hate him!

What is it that people choose to deliberately misunderstand me?

Perhaps their comprehension skills are low :lol:

-Geoff

[snarled]

Mgbradsh said my comprehension skills were low.

Hello..is that not an insult? Nothing paranoid about that.



You have a much more black and white perspective on things. Some have called it a "J" way of thinking. From a comprehension perspective I have noticed that grey areas are very difficult for you to understand.

Hmmmm....very interesting.

[garak]

Mgbradsh said my comprehension skills were low.

Hello..is that not an insult? Nothing paranoid about that.
It was an honest assessment. "You're a piece of shit" is an insult.

[Boneca]

What is it that people choose to deliberately misunderstand me?
Perhaps their comprehension skills are low :lol:It is really hard to stay serious when you two are around. :banghead:

But I guess if there is one thread that needs cheering up, it's this one.

[songbird36]

OK I'm officially bowing out here. It seems that this has descended into a ganging up on me thread, and I have no interest in continuing to buy into it.

I'm sure the debate (on whatever the topic now is) can continue without me.

[Vagabond]

Mgbradsh said my comprehension skills were low.

Hello..is that not an insult? Nothing paranoid about that. Saying I have a splinter up my ass was insulting too, then. Attributing it to booyalab was double offensive, because it seemed like manipulation to get rid of the responsibility of your comment. In any case, if you feel offended, the way to report people is through PMs, not on public threads.

[Vagabond]

Oh you bowed out. Ignore my last post.

[Lee]

Threads that should not be allowed

Threads like these should not be allowed, they are a distraction from more relevent interesting discussions and only succeed in breeding discontent........could somebody please make a rule banning these kind of threads so we do not have a repeat incident. :mad:

[melancholeric]

It is really hard to stay serious when you two are around. :banghead:

Sincere apologies. I promise to try my best to be serious and boring from now on.

[Boneca]

Sincere apologies. I promise to try my best to be serious and boring from now on.I see it as an insult that you think I'm boring only because I'm serious.

[Eileen]

Can't we can this thread already?

[melancholeric]

I see it as an insult that you think I'm boring only because I'm serious.
No, your being boring has nothing to do with whether you're ser... no wait a minute....

Well I am boring if I am serious. Just in case you haven't noticed yet.

[Shai Gar]

hell i only hate booyalab. and i still manage to talk to post without attacking her.

i hate noone else. and i think only a select few retards hate me here.

[melancholeric]

i hate noone else. and i think only a select few retards hate me here.
Yes, one would indeed have to be quite a retard to hate you. But you're not helping it by calling them retards.

[Boneca]

No, your being boring has nothing to do with whether you're ser... no wait a minute....I much appreciate your open attitude, that you can really see me as a boring person, not just as one of those serious types.

On a more serious note, I agree with Eileen. Maybe we should let this issue rest.

[Shai Gar]

:D i know :D

[heeroyuy]

That's an interesting stance from the guy that started a thread about an intellectual defense for the objectification of women.

Why change the site when you can start your own, less discriminating forum on types.

Somehow this site has become the pre-eminent type forum on the internet (in my opinion, based on a look at other type sites). As such, despite the name, we get a lot of other types on here. Fine. But the site was created to be a meeting place for one type, not all types. Do INTPs share the exact same opinions and ways of doing things as other types? All the data you have managed to collect on the 23 poll threads you've started may indicate that INTPs don't think the same way as the other types. So when someone of another type comes along and forces their "type" (and all the opinions and ways of doing things that come with that) on the forum, you are going to get a reaction.

If songbird wants to open up the can of worms that comes with challenging the opinions of the group, then she is going to have to take her licks.

In my opinion, creating a more paternalistic site is going to detract from the quality of members as well as the number of INTPs (I think that goes hand in hand). If someone has problems enough to make a thread about how to kill themselves, they are probably going to do it regardless of any sort of consensus they will get here. And the problems they have probably run much deeper than anyone on here will ever know. So for the rest of us, it's just more information gathering.

Amen.

Free speech is very important, and should only be abridged when it threatens to destroy the forum upon which it is based, in other words only when DIRECTLY Illegal. People want to talk about suicide, that's their place, if you think it's wrong tell them so, but don't tell us so unless it somehow directly attacks you. Offensive is relative, and this IS an INTP forum. I personally have nothing against other types posting here.

When I first came here, it was mostly INTPs, now it is borderline, INTPs and Everyone Else are probably about equal, and that's fine, but this is still a place created for INTPs, and it shall stay that way. If you don't like that-leave. Other types are, of course, welcome, but realize that you are guests here, and this place is meant for us, and for other people as well, but mainly for us. That doesn't mean keep quiet, but it also means it is going to be ran with the thing that most INTPs consider most important being the predominant ruling thing: that ideas need to be free, and are important.

Just my $0.02 though. I personally won't interfere unless I think the FBI is going to knock down my doors and take away the server this stuff runs on.

[Shai Gar]

or the NSA? or CIA? or DHS? or ATF? IRS? or the AFP with SDA from the FBI?
how about the DEA?

:D screw the MAN.

[heeroyuy]

You can say screw the man when you don't have 30 three letter organizations hovering over you at all times :) Me, I whisper it.

[Shai Gar]

no, i have 2 4 letter organisations (asio, asis)and 2 3 letter organisations (CID, AFP)

fuck them all.

[tragula]

Other types are, of course, welcome, but realize that you are guests here, and this place is meant for us, and for other people as well, but mainly for us.


The problem is that types are just a generalisation. Underneath is all 'humans' and we tend to be an argumentative bunch. And we can easily develop a tribalist approach - we seem to be programmed to seek acceptance and then criticise and outsider to increase our own standing in the 'gang' and to feel inclusion.

It is like watching the seeding of a new racism, it is quite an interesting social study really!

-Geoff

*Trumpets* ;P

I hereby propose the following official hierachy:

INTP = First Class members
Other NT types = Second Class members
NF=Third Class Members
ST= Fourth Class Members
Dolphins = Fifth Class Members
Other Primates = Sixth Class members
Parrots, Octopii, Dogs, Horses, Pigs =Seventh Class Members
SF=Eigth Class members


(Arguing that INTPs have a different sensibility is standing on pretty thin ice as far as I'm concerned....)

[tragula]

Whoops, I forgot about Google Spiders, who are also our guests.... stick them wherever you think best. It was only a rough draft ;-)

[garak]

ST and SF? The important distinction is SJ and SP.

[Shai Gar]

:D i know :D

but if they already dont like me, and i dont care for them, why should i bother?

[songbird36]

:D i know :D

but if they already dont like me, and i dont care for them, why should i bother?

SG I have my suspicions you're not a *real* INTP lol.

You have some very "J" qualities.

Let the hearings of the Star Chamber begin...

[cjs55]

I've always thought he was an ISTP.

[mgb]

*Trumpets* ;P

I hereby propose the following official hierachy:

INTP = First Class members
Other NT types = Second Class members
NF=Third Class Members
ST= Fourth Class Members
Dolphins = Fifth Class Members
Other Primates = Sixth Class members
Parrots, Octopii, Dogs, Horses, Pigs =Seventh Class Members
SF=Eigth Class members


(Arguing that INTPs have a different sensibility is standing on pretty thin ice as far as I'm concerned....)

Hey look, a cute logical extension.

Maybe we should do things tragula's way...

Men = First Class Members
Women = Second Class Members
Hermaphrodites = Third Class Members

Then you can do all the cat calling you want and not have those pesky girls complaining about it.

[songbird36]

Hey look, a cute logical extension.

Maybe we should do things tragula's way...

Men = First Class Members
Women = Second Class Members
Hermaphrodites = Third Class Members

Then you can do all the cat calling you want and not have those pesky girls complaining about it.

Is this the prevailing hierarchy in Calgary?

:lol:

[Shai Gar]

SG I have my suspicions you're not a *real* INTP lol.

You have some very "J" qualities.

Let the hearings of the Star Chamber begin...
no i am an INTP, i believe all of my procrastination covers that. but if you want to do the hearing in one of the flamethrower forums i will be more than willing to play defendant and defendants council.

i am just opinionated.

[garak]

Sometimes I wonder if Shai Gar is really an INTP, but really, I don't see what else he could be. He's just a particularly odd guy. No way an INTJ.

[Shai Gar]

i like that, i am odd even for an INTP

jesus how rare am i?

[Shai Gar]

:) Since INTPs are considered Odd by the masses, and i am Considered odd by the INTPs and since INTPs are the best, am i the best intp?

[mgb]

:) Since INTPs are considered Odd by the masses, and i am Considered odd by the INTPs and since INTPs are the best, am i the best intp?

Maybe just the Oddest INTP?

Something I can imagine you will relish either way you cut it.

[Vagabond]

:) Since INTPs are considered Odd by the masses, and i am Considered odd by the INTPs and since INTPs are the best, am i the best intp? You gave insufficient data. Your conclusion is arbitrairy.

*beep.. beep*

[Shai Gar]

yes i relish the thought of being amongst the oddest if not THE oddest INTPs

i promise never to pull a UnaBomber. shit, who wants to get caught

[songbird36]

I'm getting sick of Einstein's tongue, I want him to put it away and restore some standards of decency.

Can't you find a new avatar (maybe something with Xena in it, and a bow and arrow)?

[Architectonic]

SG I have my suspicions you're not a *real* INTP lol.

You have some very "J" qualities.


I've always thought he was an ISTP.

So if we combine the two, that would make him an ISTJ. ;P

[melancholeric]

*Trumpets* ;P

I hereby propose the following official hierachy:

INTP = First Class members
Other NT types = Second Class members
NF=Third Class Members
ST= Fourth Class Members
Dolphins = Fifth Class Members
Other Primates = Sixth Class members
Parrots, Octopii, Dogs, Horses, Pigs =Seventh Class Members
SF=Eigth Class members

I'd have Other Primates before NFs and ban Ss altogether, but that's just me.

[Arioch]

I appreciate the thoughtful non-viscious replies! In order:

Yeah, I knew it was a type based board. But perhaps I didn't think carefully about what that meant. It seems to me that after a short while people seem to get tired of talking about what it means to be INTP, and that the vast majority of threads and sections are devoted to other topics or MBTI in general.

I think that organizations that serve the purpose of advancing the rights of minorities are important and meaningful, even if they are generally comprised of only a certain Type of person. E.g.. NAACP

But when a place is essentially a social club built for the purposes of intellectual discussion, that is a different story entirely. Discrimination in that context amounts to saying that other types ain't that smart....

In the end only people with an interest in discussing abstract intellectual topics would come to a board like this one! Regardless of type. And different points of view only mean richer conversations.

I am aware that the name of the board is not up for a poll, I wasn't seriously suggesting that a vote could change that. But I was seriously pointing out the fact that the name is discriminatory. Especially if this place is going to almost inevitably evolve into the premier gathering spot for people of all MBTI types.

In my opinion creating a more paternalistic board would not detract from the quality of the site. It might be a little less like the Wild Wild West. But only a certain kind of flower will thrive in a hostile, dark, gloomy landscape....

_____________

Lastly, what's with all the people declaring a thread dead or an argument over. Unless people have proved their point to everyone's satisfaction an argument is not over. And saying it is doesn't make it so. ;P

I was once in a INTP group where they stated what was considered off topic.
The answer: nothing. Why? Because any topic raised by a INTP was good because a INTP was interested in it. This is not a forum meant for intellectual discussion but rather for the viewpoint of the INTP (and lets face it "how big is your penis?" is not a intellectual discussion). Now, I like having non-INTP's on the forum, they give a bit of spice. But this does not change the fact that the original purpose was a place for INTPs to gather and be INTP's.

[Shai Gar]

only certain fools aer arguing that

[tragula]

Hey look, a cute logical extension.

Maybe we should do things tragula's way...

Men = First Class Members
Women = Second Class Members
Hermaphrodites = Third Class Members

Then you can do all the cat calling you want and not have those pesky girls complaining about it.


HA HA. Someone has not been reading my posts in gender studies very closely...
when I have stated a preference it has been the other way around actually ;P


My own personal preference for the company of women perplexes me sometimes. I've ruled out it being purely a physical attraction issue. So it's a basically honest question for me to help me find out why I may be SLIGHTLY prejudiced against my own gender, and whether there is any justification for it!

That quote is pulled from this thread:

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=2143&page=3&pp=10&highlight=company+women

I suppose I should respond to the criticism of objectification. Sigh. Objectification is completely different from Discrimiation. The two concepts are not connected. When I have suggested provocatively that it is impossible for men not to objectify women on some level it was met largely with agreement, even from women.

I don't believe I have posted any comment regarding hemaphrodites.... but seems like the best of both worlds to me! :)

[tragula]

ST and SF? The important distinction is SJ and SP.

Actually I think the middle letters are the most crucial because they denote actual functions.

ST sort of slips under the radar a lot because they are also deeply introverted thinkers. I find that they tend to curse more because they are more earthy. They are also usually louder, more hedonistic, and don't mind being the center of attention.

Hmmm. :whistle:

[mgb]

HA HA. Someone has not been reading my posts in gender studies very closely...
when I have stated a preference it has been the other way around actually ;P



That quote is pulled from this thread:

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=2143&page=3&pp=10&highlight=company+women

I suppose I should respond to the criticism of objectification. Sigh. Objectification is completely different from Discrimiation. The two concepts are not connected. When I have suggested provocatively that it is impossible for men not to objectify women on some level it was met largely with agreement, even from women.

I don't believe I have posted any comment regarding hemaphrodites.... but seems like the best of both worlds to me! :)

You are right, haven't read that thread, and I don't care if I do or not.

My point was not to make a distinction between discrimination and objectification, just to show I could stretch an argument out past the realms of logic and possibility like you did. Which you probably still did better than me because I've seen more hermaphrodites than Octopii on the site.

So congratulations, you have bested me in stretching things into the retarded.

[Claverhouse]

PLACE HOLDER FOR CLASSIC STATUS.

One of the most interesting arguments in intpcentral's history: from a pathological viewpoint.

C.


Particularly as some freedom-lovers argued the other way, for censorship, in other threads. Few of us are guilty of consistency.