Why Fidel Castro is popular in Cuba

[Karl]

I get that most people don't find this as interesting as I do, so I'm going to quote parts from a few things. Feel free to read the whole thing, as I did.

First, I was checking BBC, which is my main source of news. I see "Castro and McCain in Vietnam spat (http://soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=37990)." Castro and Mccain talking? What's this?

So first I see:

Cuban leader Fidel Castro says claims by US presidential hopeful John McCain that Cubans helped the North Vietnamese torture US POWs in the 1960s are lies.

I already knew a little bit about what Fidel Castro has to say about this. A few months ago, I watched the 2003 Documentary Comandante, but I see:



Mr Castro, writing in a state-run paper, said the claims were baseless.
I happen to read the international version of that state run paper from time to time, and when BBC mentions a document or a site, I try to actually look at it.

It turns out it's in two parts, both with a "more coming" at the end. Here they are.

The Republican Candidate: Part One (http://granma.cu/ingles/2008/febrero/lun11/Reflections-11feb.html)
The Republican Candidate: Part Two (http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2008/febrero/mar12/reflexiones.html)
The Republican Candidate: Part Three (http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2008/febrero/mier13/Reflections-13feb.html)
The Republican Candidate: Part Four (http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2008/febrero/vier15/reflections4-i.html)
The Republican Candidate: Part Five (http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2008/febrero/lun18/Reflections-18feb.html)
Here's some of what Castro said:



A made-for-TV film based on his memoirs as a prisoner of war was broadcast on Memorial Day 2005, and he became famous for his videos and speeches on the subject.

The worst affirmation that he made with respect to our country was that Cuban interrogators had systematically tortured U.S. prisoners.

Given McCain?s crazy words, I became interested in this matter. I wanted to know where such a strange legend came from. I asked for a search of the history of this accusation. I was told of a book that had been very much promoted, based on which the film was made, written by McCain and his administrative advisor in the Senate, Mark Salter, who continues to work and write with him. I asked for it to be translated verbatim. As other occasions, that was done quickly by qualified personnel. The title of the book: Faith of My Fathers, 349 pages, published in 1999.

I'd really like you to notice the last paragraph. McCain had a book published, and Fidel Castro went and got the book translated and read it. He mentions some of what was said in the book, particularly in the second part. There's also some great statements like this:



Allow me to remind you, Mr. McCain: The commandments of the religion that you practice forbid lying. The years of prison and the injuries that you received as a consequence of your attacks on Hanoi do not excuse you from your moral duty to the truth.


I visited the mass of prisoners from the Bay of Pigs, which is what you call the Gir?n invasion, more than once, and talked with them. I like to know people?s motives. They were very surprised and acknowledged the personal respect with which they were treated.

So naturally McCain is asked for his response. Here's what he gives:

For me to respond to Fidel Castro who has oppressed and repressed his people and who is one of the most brutal dictators on Earth, for me to dignify any comments he might make is certainly beneath me.

From that BBC article.

If I may accuse our politicians of ad hominem attacks, this is a good time to do so. Castro gives an educated and well thought out response, and McCain says he's not even going to respond. Castro's writings are published in a way that Cubans can easily get access to this, and McCain has no rebuttal other than that Castro is a horrible dictator who hates freedom.

This is basically what the US foreign policy towards Cuba comes down to: acting agressively and unreasonably, and saying loudly that Cuba is a dictatorship, while being more than willing to trade and negotiate openly with dictatorships that have done much less to improve their country's education, health, and standard of living. While in contrast, Castro says he went and talked to the people who were in the Bay of Pigs invasion to try to understand them better.

Even if you dislike the Cuban government, you have to realize that acting like this increases the support for the current government and system.

[LongSilence]

You're telling me that Castro doesn't ever resort to 'acting like a politician' himself? McCain's rebuttal, while not an example of logical debating, is a great example of political mud-slinging which is the staple of almost all political dispute. The US still won't embrace Castro's Cuba in open arms because Castro's Cuba has developed values distinctly opposed to their own. Besides, they still have 'history' and nations always take their time getting over that.

[Karl]

You're telling me that Castro doesn't ever resort to 'acting like a politician' himself? McCain's rebuttal, while not an example of logical debating, is a great example of political mud-slinging which is the staple of almost all political dispute. The US still won't embrace Castro's Cuba in open arms because Castro's Cuba has developed values distinctly opposed to their own. Besides, they still have 'history' and nations always take their time getting over that.

I can't answer every situation that someone said something about Castro or Cuba and say if he always responded. I can say that just now, Castro didn't just say "McCain is an evil imperialist and is lying. Don't believe his evil lies."

This is also typical of how the government treats Cuba. The former US ambassador to Cuba said that he realized that the US government was incapable of dealing with Cuba rationally.

This is also not the first time Castro has responded at length to the US. For example, Castro gave a very good analysis of Bush's state of the union speech, available here:
http://granma.cu/ingles/2008/enero/mier30/reflexiones4.html

So I would say trying to logically defend himself, his ideas, and his country is typical of Castro's approach. That doesn't make him right, but it's something I'd appreciate in any leader.
Edit:
Why do you think Cuba regularly has writings published in the Granma by Fidel Castro for the world and for Cuba to read, while we rarely hear from our leaders in such a way?

Edit again revised: I'm going to quote Hegemony or Survival by Noam Chomsky to illustrate this.

"Likely reasons are suggested by public opinion studies, which reveal that on the eve of the (2000) election, three-quarters of the population regarded it (the elections) as a game played by large contributors, party leaders, and the PR industry, which crafted candidates to say 'almost anything to get themselves elected.' On almost all issues, citizens could not identify the stands of the candidates--as intended. Issues on which the public differs from elite opinion are generally off the agenda. Voters were directed to 'personal qualities,' not 'issues.'...Among working people, noneconomic issues such as gun ownership and 'religiosity' were leading factors...In 2000, feelings of 'powerlessness' reached the highest level recorded, over 50 percent."

Emphasis added.

In case you're interested in the source:
"Thomas Patterson, Boston Globe, 15 December 2000, and New York Times, 8 November 2000. Also see his book The Vanishing Voter (Knopf, 2002). Gary Jacobson, Political Science Quarterly 116, no. 1 (spring 2001). See also my articles in the January and February 2001 issues of Z Magazine."

[Kathara]

Get a grip, that's propaganda.

Ceausescu seriously considered himself loved by the people. He said that the people will avenge his death.

[Shoot!]

Uh, yeah. Take what Castro says with a grain of salt. I'm not saying that all he is spouting off is propoganda or anything along those lines, but just because he'll say it doesn't necessarily make it verifiably true.

[Karl]

What I'm trying to point out isn't whether or not Cubans tortured people in Vietnam or aided torture, although I'd question why that would even be in Cuba's best interest. What I'm trying to point is how Castro and Cuba presents its ideas and how our politicians respond to Cuba. I think Castro is able to garner support by more openly sharing his ideas.

I'm not saying our politicians should more openly share their ideas, because I believe most people don't agree with our politicians. That's the other thing I'm trying to suggest.


Uh, yeah. Take what Castro says with a grain of salt. I'm not saying that all he is spouting off is propoganda or anything along those lines, but just because he'll say it doesn't necessarily make it verifiably true.

I know that.

Edit: Oh, and I support socialist propaganda, before and during socialism. Lenin in particular stressed the importance of propaganda and agitation in establishing socialism.

[Karl]

I added the quote I mentioned earlier at the end of post 3. Hopefully it'll at least make what I'm trying to say clearer even if you don't view it as good evidence of what I'm saying.

[Dark Razor]

Very interesting, thank you for posting this Karl Marx :) .

[Ferrus]

Get a grip, that's propaganda.

Ceausescu seriously considered himself loved by the people. He said that the people will avenge his death.
I hear in communist times there was a joke along the lines of:

'Why is pornography illegal in Romania?'

'Because Elena Ceausescu would be the centrefold'

[meanlittlechimp]

What I'm trying to point out isn't whether or not Cubans tortured people in Vietnam or aided torture, although I'd question why that would even be in Cuba's best interest. What I'm trying to point is how Castro and Cuba presents its ideas and how our politicians respond to Cuba. I think Castro is able to garner support by more openly sharing his ideas.



I completely agree with you. Castro was respected initially because he risked his life (as part of the upper class - he didn't need to) overthrowing a corrupt government, that essentially was a US puppet. He did however, promise real elections and a democracy once he got in power but it never materialized. Over time his popular support dwindled and they became disillusioned with his heavy handed authoritarian regime.

But.. because of US embargo's, attempted invasions, coups and assassination attempts on his life just in Cuba, let alone similar activities to many of the neighboring countries. It gives him credibility and a common enemy to rally around, in which they are more willing to give up their civil liberties. Same reason we can let Bush erode privacy laws under the guise of anti-terrorism. He can be open because he doesn't have to LIE when he says the US does bad things to his countries and to others.

What I don't get though, is why the Vietnamese would need Cubans to teach them how to torture. Bamboo sticks under the nails, batteries to the nuts...?

They've been fighting the French for decades and the British after them. They've done a hell of a lot more fighting than the Cubans. who took over the Cuba with a few hundred men off a boat. Their knowledge of warfare and torture tactics would be pretty measly compared to the Chinese (or even themselves) who were already aiding the Vietnamese during that time.

[Karl]

He doesn't just talk about the US trying to kill him though. I mean yeah, he does bring that stuff up, and it does end up making people see Castro as an anti-imperialist, which he is. But he talks about economics. He talks about what he'd like to see accomplished in the future. He talks about global warming, alternative fuels...

I mean, there are other people talking about these things, but I don't see George Bush or other top government officials talking about them regularly. Just some vague statements about searching for new fuel sources (paired with a hike in biofuels) during a speech...

Edit: Oh, and in the end "The Republican Candidate" was five parts long. I felt like it was worth reading.

[stopharian]

So move to Cuba then and start enjoying the paradise. Nothing is preventing you from living your dream.

Another possible ecstacy would be for you to go join FARC, there are other young westerners who have joined.

[stopharian]

Dont rule out other thoughts......Im serious. You dont find it to be a huge inconsistency to believe and espouse such ideas from the comfort of your suburban home? What are your plans for your life and do they involve making a stand for what you believe?

[meanlittlechimp]

So move to Cuba then and start enjoying the paradise. Nothing is preventing you from living your dream.

Another possible ecstacy would be for you to go join FARC, there are other young westerners who have joined.

I love this retort, another variation of "why don't you just go back to Africa." told to black people who criticize or debate government policies in the US.

You're right Cuba isn't a great place to live. But they made great strides relative to other Latin American countries that are our "allies". Compare Cuba with the regimes we back in that region - health care, life expectancy, literacy, etc.. Imagine what the place would be like if they weren't constantly harassed and impeded with trade embargos and destablization programs from the most powerful country on earth, just a boat ride away.

[meanlittlechimp]

He doesn't just talk about the US trying to kill him though. I mean yeah, he does bring that stuff up, and it does end up making people see Castro as an anti-imperialist, which he is. But he talks about economics. He talks about what he'd like to see accomplished in the future. He talks about global warming, alternative fuels...


Sorry, I actually didn't read your links. I just read your post - I'll check it out later.

[trapstar]

I love this retort, another variation of "why don't you just go back to Africa." told to black people who criticize or debate government policies in the US.

Not really, stopharian makes a good point. Most communists are perfectly comfortable with their middle class life style and have no actual connection to the working class they so desperately are trying to idolize.

[meanlittlechimp]

Not really, stopharian makes a good point. Most communists are perfectly comfortable with their middle class life style and have no actual connection to the working class they so desperately are trying to idolize.

Most communists? What middle class communists are you talking about?

Are you saying to take my stance requires or implies idolization of the working class? What class does one have to belong to, when taking specific stances or views on politics or history? If you haven't been in outer space, then physicists should just stop debating black holes, because they've never been there? I would take the average Brit over the average American in terms of knowledge of American Politics/History (even if they never set foot in here).

[trapstar]

Most communists? What middle class communists are you talking about?

Are you saying to take my stance requires or implies idolization of the working class? What class does one have to belong to, when taking specific stances or views on politics or history? If you haven't been in outer space, then physicists should just stop debating black holes, because they've never been there?

Whatever :rolleyes:

Teenage middle class communists are the kind that thinks it is 1908, have opinions that are simply not based on reality. Mostly they are caught up in the idea of a struggle against society.

It's like a political wigger

[Karl]

Sorry, I actually didn't read your links. I just read your post - I'll check it out later.

I quoted parts of it instead of just linking to it because I didn't think most people would read it. I'll actually be thankful if anyone gives their thoughts on it. (Edit: Although I was refering to "Reflections of Comrade Fidel" and not just what I linked to. Although he does talk about a variety of issues in what he wrote, it's mostly US centered. For instance he criticizes the US for being dependent on "Military Keynesianism," which is a new concept for me. Still that bit is about how it's affecting the US domestically and directly about not how it's bringing Cuba down. )


Whatever

Teenage middle class communists are the kind that thinks it is 1908, have opinions that are simply not based on reality. Mostly they are caught up in the idea of a struggle against society.

It's like a political wigger

I do not consider myself to be this interesting. I'm not sure why the discussion is so quick to turn to my personal qualities.

[trapstar]

I do not consider myself to be this interesting. I'm not sure why the discussion is so quick to turn to my personal qualities.

Didn't mean to offend you. That first part was directed to you, the second post was just a rant

[meanlittlechimp]

Whatever :rolleyes:

Teenage middle class communists are the kind that thinks it is 1908, have opinions that are simply not based on reality. Mostly they are caught up in the idea of a struggle against society.

It's like a political wigger

I don't see them as communists at all. Just dumb teenagers.

[Limey]

o O
Have you spoken to any Cubans or expatriate Cubans about this alleged popularity?
The sentiment, (of popularity) is certainly not shared among any of the hundreds of Cuban-Americans that I knew in Miami.

I'd go as far to say that they fucking hate him and the Batista regime before him.

[Thevenin]

o O
Have you spoken to any Cubans or expatriate Cubans about this alleged popularity?
The sentiment, (of popularity) is certainly not shared among any of the hundreds of Cuban-Americans that I knew in Miami.

I'd go as far to say that they fucking hate him and the Batista regime before him.

So true. Communists still exist in one or two failing, poverty stricken dictatorships in the world, and, also, among diehard, leftist professors, who don't have to work very hard IRL and who would be the first imprisoned or doing the imprisoning after a putative revolution. Few of these professors, last I heard, are in the hard sciences or engineering, where real world data really matter, and logic and empiricism cannot be obfuscated by postmodernism or similar nonsense.

Remember this, particularly if you're a romantic teenager enthralled by the likes of Castro or Che Guevara: Both Batista and the subsequent Castro regime are said to have employed torturers to blind prisoners by slicing their eyeballs through their closed eyelids.

[meanlittlechimp]

o O
Have you spoken to any Cubans or expatriate Cubans about this alleged popularity?
The sentiment, (of popularity) is certainly not shared among any of the hundreds of Cuban-Americans that I knew in Miami.

I'd go as far to say that they fucking hate him and the Batista regime before him.

You're right.

Most of the covertly trained insurgents who we sent to invade Cuba in the "Bay of Pigs" fiasco were indeed Cubans from Miami. They interviewed a lot of them in fairly interesting documentary called "638 Ways to Kill Castro" - http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/638_ways_to_kill_castro/

But most Cuban Americans are here because they were part of or connected to the Battista regime in the first place. There was a minority of folks who did benefit from the Battista regime (generally the landowning elite) while the majority lived in abject poverty and had to turn to prostitution and service jobs in the mob run casinos and hotels, but when they got ousted by the overwhelming majority, they were sent here.

I think Castro's popularity would have fell of dramatically if we just left him alone. The population grew dis-enfranchised when he refused to have democratic elections (which he promised before the revolution was successful). The problem was that when you have a foreign power trying to overthrow your leader (who got rid of the corrupt Battista regime), it makes them forget about the increasing authoritarian regime Castro put in place, to rally around a common enemy - the US.

The same reason Bush cranked up the terror alerts before the election (which mysteriously dissappeared afterwards). Same reason we allowed wire-tapping civilians under the guise of anti-terrorism.

[Karl]

Have you spoken to any Cubans or expatriate Cubans about this alleged popularity?

I haven't been to Cuba, so I haven't had the opportunity to see any Cubans living there. I'd have to question why Cubans who like the Cuban government would go to Miami though. I mean there are some pro-Castro groups in the US, but they're pretty small from what I hear, and you would expect any pro-castro cubans in Miami to quietly make money. (if anything just to not piss off the other Cubans)



I'd go as far to say that they fucking hate him and the Batista regime before him.

Yeah, they do. In fact they've played a big part in US sponsored Terrorism. (one example is Posada)

In fact I saw a quote of one person who said that Castro was worse than Hitler.


So true. Communists still exist in one or two failing, poverty stricken dictatorships in the world, and, also, among diehard, leftist professors, who don't have to work very hard IRL and who would be the first imprisoned or doing the imprisoning after a putative revolution. Few of these professors, last I heard, are in the hard sciences or engineering, where real world data really matter, and logic and empiricism cannot be obfuscated by postmodernism or similar nonsense.

As long as people like you rely on the supposed personal qualities of communists, I will not take you and the others seriously. Such vehement ad-hominems are a sign of the ideologically stunted.

A short bit... Communist Parties in the US are not all made up of "intellectuals." The Nepalese Maoists who have been leading an insurgency are not professors. The Indian Maoists are comprised of professors. Shining path is not made of professors. FARC and ELN are not made of professors. The Marxist groups in the PLO are not made of professors. Most of the Marxist groups who have not taken the steps to insurgency also come to mind.

Finally, I'm not sure which "two" you're refering to. There's several groups with Communist parties in powers, so I'm thinking maybe you're referring to North Korea and Cuba. FYI, North Korea claims to follow Juche, an ideology they say is based on, but separate from, Marxism.



Remember this, particularly if you're a romantic teenager enthralled by the likes of Castro or Che Guevara: Both Batista and the subsequent Castro regime are said to have employed torturers to blind prisoners by slicing their eyeballs through their closed eyelids.

I would be surprised if you could show me reliable evidence backing that up any further than I could make the claim about Bush. (and I'm not, but I'm sure I could find someone important saying that or the equivalent)


The population grew dis-enfranchised when he refused to have democratic elections

I would argue that their elections are more democratic than ours. Although I think we may be seeing a greater degree of openness coming.

[Limey]

Castro's own ex-communicated sister lives in Miami, her [maiden] name is Castro and if I remember right, even she doesn't like him, or his regime.
There's a huge amount of bad feeling, even when it comes to his decision to free them in the Mariel boat lift. I heard one first hand account (from the guy who was a boy on the boat) that he was on a boat that was filled with Criminals, straight out of prison and known sexual miscreants and even homosexuals from the area.

I've heard many people assert that the ratio was at least 3 prisoners or undesirables for every normal citizen (including children).

[Karl]

Castro's own ex-communicated sister lives in Miami, her [maiden] name is Castro and if I remember right, even she doesn't like him, or his regime.
There's a huge amount of bad feeling, even when it comes to his decision to free them in the Mariel boat lift. I heard one first hand account (from the guy who was a boy on the boat) that he was on a boat that was filled with Criminals, straight out of prison and known sexual miscreants and even homosexuals from the area.

I've heard many people assert that the ratio was at least 3 prisoners or undesirables for every normal citizen (including children).

Wait, are you arguing that Castro sending criminals to the US was a bad move on his part? I think it's a great way to take advantage of the "any cuban who gets here can stay" policy we have. I mean imagine if they did that with Mexicans. It's obviously a politically motivated move and this is was great way to retaliate.

And yes, there is a huge amount of bad feeling. However his sister not liking him doesn't prove anything in particular, sense personal qualities aren't the issue about Castro or me.

One thing I have to ask, is if you think so many people dislike him as much as Batista, is why he wasn't overthrown like Batista. Batista was in a more favorable position than Castro after the collaspe of the SU. Cuba lost most of its allies and trading partners, and the US was still pushing to screw Cuba over through terrorism and assassinations. In contrast Castro's group made many of their weapons themselves while they were there.

[Thevenin]

For those who think Cuba is a paradise, no one is stopping you from taking a boat, sort of in a reverse Mariel boat lift, and going there. You'd be able to enjoy a collective economy with its five year plans and generalized poverty. Otherwise, if you're planning on staying here, or in another free market economy, you might encounter just a little bit of resistance from us "running dogs" of capitalism who happen to believe in the efficiency of free markets, even for the poor. Communism is a relic of the past, and it's just astounding how naive some people can be who still mouth its inanities. In a capitalist system a few people are poor. In a communist system, everyone is poor, except for the dictator (there always is one) and his toadies.

[Karl]

For those who think Cuba is a paradise, no one is stopping you from taking a boat, sort of in a reverse Mariel boat lift, and going there. You'd be able to enjoy a collective economy with its five year plans and generalized poverty. Otherwise, if you're planning on staying here, or in another free market economy, you might encounter just a little bit of resistance from us "running dogs" of capitalism who happen to believe in the efficiency of free markets, even for the poor. Communism is a relic of the past, and it's just astounding how naive some people can be who still mouth its inanities. In a capitalist system a few people are poor. In a communist system, everyone is poor, except for the dictator (there always is one) and his toadies.

"Opposition" in the form of personal attacks is not something I'll respect from anyone, be they Marxists or Liberals. And I'm done talking about that.

[stopharian]

Dont Forget that the Mariel Boat lift started when over 10,000 non criminal cubans stormed the Peruvian Embassy seeking political asylum. The criminals didnt even enter the equation until castro realised that the situation was so bad that he was going to have to let some people out of the country.

[Karl]

Dont Forget that the Mariel Boat lift started when over 10,000 non criminal cubans stormed the Peruvian Embassy seeking political asylum. The criminals didnt even enter the equation until castro realised that the situation was so bad that he was going to have to let some people out of the country.

I didn't know that it was the Peruvian embassy in particular, but the rest I knew. I still think you have to admit that it was a good move if Cuba was going to release people.

[Thevenin]

"Opposition" in the form of personal attacks is not something I'll respect from anyone, be they Marxists or Liberals. And I'm done talking about that.

I'm neither a Marxist nor a Liberal, as one might easily guess. And, what I wrote was not a personal attack but, rather, a rational suggestion to further your happiness. After all, communists today have so few places they can go to actualize their political and economic fantasies. It must be very depressing to live among us capitalists who believe in efficient markets and a vibrant middle class. I empathize.

[Karl]

I'm neither a Marxist nor a Liberal, as one might easily guess. And, what I wrote was not a personal attack but, rather, a rational suggestion to further your happiness. After all, communists today have so few places they can go to actualize their political and economic fantasies. It must be very depressing to live among us capitalists who believe in efficient markets and a vibrant middle class. I empathize.

I guess you weren't responding to my last response to you like I assumed due to your lack of quoting. I'll guess it was the post before yours instead, only then I still don't understand its relevance.

I think you may have your terms muddled, but if you really don't base your ideas on Liberalism I'm interested in what. Here's some simplified definitions though:

Capitalist- Someone who has invested in capital. When we talk about Vanderbilt as a capitalist, that's what we mean.

Liberal- I'm using the capital L to denote Liberalism, which is an ideology that came out of the enlightenment, which had a lot to do with John Locke's ideas. Marxism came out of the Enlightenment too eventually, sharing the faith in human reason, but in a different way. Liberals focus on individuals and seek to empower certain meritous individuals. This ideology supports capitalism.

[trapstar]

For those who think Cuba is a paradise, no one is stopping you from taking a boat, sort of in a reverse Mariel boat lift, and going there. You'd be able to enjoy a collective economy with its five year plans and generalized poverty. Otherwise, if you're planning on staying here, or in another free market economy, you might encounter just a little bit of resistance from us "running dogs" of capitalism who happen to believe in the efficiency of free markets, even for the poor. Communism is a relic of the past, and it's just astounding how naive some people can be who still mouth its inanities. In a capitalist system a few people are poor. In a communist system, everyone is poor, except for the dictator (there always is one) and his toadies.

Their agriculturural advances are great and their policies have spawned movements in other third world countries that stand in stark contrast to the GMO peddlers at Monsanto. For example.

Cuba is neither a paradise nor the backwaters of civilization.

My parents grew up in a communist country and it wasn't that bad. They had all the opportunities to do whatever they wanted. Then again, they grew up in one of the more lenient states.

EDIT: I still think communism < capitalism. But it isn't as non-functional as people would have you believe

[trapstar]

^^ I broke the big 666 with that post

now it's 667... one step ahead of the devil

[Karl]

^^ I broke the big 666 with that post

now it's 667... one step ahead of the devil

Just like communism.

[Ferrus]

EDIT: I still think communism < capitalism. But it isn't as non-functional as people would have you believe
True enough, the collapse of Soviet states was as much a result of demand for Western style consumption as anything else.