Do people Deserve help.

[jittus rye]

I think everyone should help themselves. The only time people need help is when they are physicologically ill, but do not realize it, and have the means to pay for their treatment. There have been times when I have turned down, and when I haven't turned down, poor kids in my neighborhood selling candy for a dollar. There is mutual respect between most people. Respect is more important than compassion. If the kid plays his or her little cards right, and doesn't act like a jackass, and I want that chocolate being the pigish American that I am then I will gladly hand over my 10 minutes worth of manual labor form of currancy for a chocolate bar. I will not however hand money over to a begger or someone that doesn't treat the person they are begging from with respect. I am sure some of you are familiar with the "Lion's Club." They stand outside of stores every Christmas or fund raising season or so collecting loose change for maybe a tootsey roll or just a godbless. I've given to these people on several occasions. Be it for veterans of war or for homeless children. It comes down to mutual respect.

I've had people not of my family live in my household before. One little black girl who was of a crack whore white mother, which i like as much as my sisters stayed in my household on and off for over a years time total.

I have lived alone with my father when we were at the very bottom of the lower class, not homeless though, my father isn't ignorant. He worked everyday and paid the rent, fed myself, and then fed himself. I've been in many locations and I think it is safe to say people can move around if something isn't working for them.

My opinions on compassion, starting as follows are this:

1. All people who need some type of help don't deserve the help. But it doesn't mean they can't get it if they try hard enough. People in the civilized world just don't randomly starve to death, there is a process that takes place before this happens, and they can fail to go on living if they're ignorant enough.

-No one Deserves anything, the only thing that is deserved are punishments, not justice, but punishments, the term justice implies something good, and people don't deserve good or bad. They only deserve cause and effect. And that my friend, is punishment.

2. If people are helped instead of made to suffer, they will not become useful to society. Sometimes the suffering may lead tp people trying to stop the suffering, getting a job, trying harder in life, establishing plans, making goals, or commiting suicide. Either way people are made to do what is natural to them. Try to survive, to better themselves, and become more advanced. The will to survive is greater than the gift of compassion.

3. This brings us to the useless and helpless. These are the people which I haveth not any compassion whatsoever for. Darwinian theory at its best. Ahh, human nature, I love it.

Afterwards: Here we have learned that people, humans do not need the idea of compassion. The only ones that need survive and prosper are those with good minds, and good genes. This unfortunately isn't the case, and the shit of society lives on, forever infesting the gene pool of humanity. Thanks to all the bleeding hearts and welfare programs.

Feel free to respond with any thoughts on this.

[Division56]

Not to be crude, but you my friend are the definition of a person with rough edges.

[jittus rye]

I know that probably isn't a compliment, but I seem to take your statement that way anyways, Curiously enough.

[Vagabond]

I am for helping people learn how to help themselves. If you take over their responsibilities, you just make them dependant and therefore more helpless.

[HairlessBluetick]

Here we have learned that people, humans do not need the idea of compassion. The only ones that need survive and prosper are those with good minds, and good genes. This unfortunately isn't the case, and the shit of society lives on, forever infesting the gene pool of humanity. Thanks to all the bleeding hearts and welfare programs.

*sigh* I'm sad that there are still intelligent people out there who feel this way. Now, I'm not saying we should shell out money to every idiot crackhead that mistreats his family and steals from his girlfriend and will spend it on drugs anyway, but there is difference between this man and someone who just needs *a little compassion* and support to get back on their feet.

[CosmicDust]

The ones that do survive and prosper are often those with good money and good luck (and not-too-bad genes). The good money isn't always won by a good mind - it's often won by good luck, e.g., being born non-poor in America. A good mind or good body can sometimes win people good money, though.

People helping themselves would allow more prosperity, but I doubt that all people who need help are mere slackers. Encouragement and empowerment could be made part of charity work. In medicine, this kind of stuff can actually work quite well.

[jittus rye]

there is difference between this man and someone who just needs *a little compassion* and support to get back on their feet.

I entirely agree, but there is nothing that a person cannot do themselves. The only time this is a factor is when they are born poor, lived in an area where there has been education taught poorly, and were only able to get a poor job. This for example wouldn't let a father pay for a million dollar opperation on his child for instance.

Now here is where someone has to make up their mind. It is in no way possible for this man to accomplish the task of paying for such a thing, but it was someone in his family's fault for bringing him into such a situation in the first place.

If something like this were to happen to myself, I would surely die. My father would in no way be able to pay for such a thing. Rather than people giving money away for something like this, why not get something in return? Lifetime slavery maybe, who knows? Would I be someone's slave for the rest of my life earning them as much money as possible under poor living conditions with no livelyhood whatsoever in order to just survive? Certainly. But then again my life may never end up being worth the million dollars someone forked over for the opperation, seeing as that money may be more successfully invested than what I could earn over a period of time. If that is the case, than my life is worthless.

It is hard to draw the line between a little and a lot of compassion.

Is a little compassion 10 dollars? 100 dollars? 1000 dollars? Or more?

[Johnny]

I think any of us who imagine we are making it in life solely because we work hard and have desirable attributes are deluding ourselves. If any of us think there are people in the world who don't deserve our love, compassion, and help, then we are only imposing characteristics we do not like upon others to avoid facing the ugly parts of ourselves.

It's self-defeating. I simply appreciate that I am human, grant the same entitlement to those around me, and then contemplate something more meaningful.

[jittus rye]

An honest working man is laid off one day. Being a person of reason, he has always believed that love equates happiness so he had a humdrum job that let him see his wife all the time, for he wanted to be happier. He was a rather intellegent man, so he realized that he was in some real trouble when he found out the nation's job market was already completely saturated and his job no longer exsisted. The man trys looking for work for several months. His wife and himself having cut back a lot on their expenses. He had the reasonable sum of three thousand dollars saved in his bank account, but with rent costs of 500 dollars a month, let alone the cost of electricity, car payments, and food, the money would surely be gone in no time. Four months go by and it has become apparent that the man nearly has no money left to his name. He dodges the rent for a month and him and his wife really cut down on their food and electricity spending, canceling the cable, but keeping the phone. Eventually he is evicted and he now has nothing left but his car. It still hasn't been paid off, but luckily he wasn't too greedy and got a rather old model that had cheap insurance attached to it.

Here we have a perfectly good American soul living without unemployment so far, let's read on to find out what happens next..

They park their car in a nearby recreational park. His wife now on the verge of an emotional breakdown, and feeling love is not enough stares coldly into the concrete landscape. It is found that they can both keep from starving by eating less than five dollars of food a day, or less than $2.50 each per day. That along with free water fountains help them physically survive. The man sets off, walking through the streets looking for any type of work he can find. Eventually he comes upon a place where he can work below minimum wage in order to make 50 dollars per day. The work is harsh, and physically testing, not to mention against certainly some labor laws. Having to work from 9 to 9 disheartens him as well. By working in such a fashion for such a generous employer he manages to bring home the bacon. His wife and him start eating better as the money for car payments, some money for gas, and money for food is rolling in. Eventually he builds his bank account to an acceptable level, and the car finally gets paid off. It is high times in the concrete recreational park.

They will not have to live like this forever. Was the man lucky? I don't think so. Was this story pretty honest. I think so. Are this man's bad traits self-defeating to me? no. Are other's bad traits that are actually something bad, self deating to me? no.

Life isn't ment to be enjoyed until someone has worked through its struggle, or was born already through it. If people cannot sacrafice fun and games for having money, so be it.

[Division56]

I may be wrong but...

I've seen this attitude many times in my life. I find it is most often the product of an extremely poor (money-wise) childhood and gives the person a cut-throat, every man for himself, social darwanism type outlook. Not all people raised in those circumstances are like that, I'm just saying that's where I've seen most of it come from.

If you looked at your opinions more closely, you would see that you are the burden onto society with your all about me attitudes. Not the people who have fallen on hard times. Instead of helping rehalibitate or pull up the people with problems, you want to stomp them into the ground even further, just so you can get a few steps further ahead yourself.


Here is another thought

A - your theories state that if a person applies themselves they can survive, if they don't they will die off and better the gene pool

B - America is still highly racist and bigoted

This means that your plan would be literally a "genetic cleansing" of the population, resulting in higher numbers of white straight as an arrow types and reducing social and genetic diversity.


This would also cause the human species to become highly specialized decreasing its defenses against a panoply of problems.

[jittus rye]

Touché indeed. Genetic cleansing isn't a good idea.

As with your statements of stomping people in the ground to get ahead, I find that holds much truth. Only, I don't stomp them, I just let them lay sick and dying.

I am not a burden, I merely run my course while trying to step over, without touching, these people. Consuming resources all earned by me, and not the gifts of anyone else.

My father taught me never to be thankful for anything. I probably will never accept any form of charity save for a piece of candy and tax refund.

[shaytana]

I believe that everyone should be able to help themselves, and I will not even consider helping someone who hasn't already tried to help themselves.

But what I don't understand with your logic is this; What does money have to do with the value of a human life. Why are you quantifying compassion in terms of monetary value? There are some things in this world that can NOT be priced, and one of those is life. Too subjective.

I see no difference in the value of a human that has $10 in their pocket compared to the human that has a million in his pocket.

Any why do you assume that only poor people need help? Sure, they are usually the only ones that need help paying their rent, but they are far from being the only helpless people on this planet.

And there are other ways to help people in need than giving away little pieces of paper. Sometimes all that is needed is a kind word and a genuine smile.

I understand and even agree with the concept that the harder road breeds a stronger mind, but you are discounting the benefits that can be found while taking the easier road now and then. Asking a close friend for help can end up bringing you on a journey that you never imagined, going on unemployment and "slacking off" for a year can bring the time needed for reflection and rejuvenation that you didn't even realize you needed until you had it.

I am fiercely independent and despise asking for help of any sort, but I am not ignorant enough to think that this is normal behaviour. Humans are a social species, we need other humans to survive, this is not an opinion, this is fact. And given this I will not demand that my fellow humans deal with all of their problems alone. Some yes, most even, but not all. If push comes to shove I will stretch out my hand, even if that is all I can do.

[paladinoflunaria]

I don't think his plan has anything to do with being "white" or "straight," but rather it has to do with work ethic.

I'm growing up in a single parent family with one brother. Existence in the bottom-middle of the lower class isn't that terrible, and I don't think that it necessarily affects whether one grows up with a cut-throat attitude.

I think that CosmicDust gave an accurate analysis, and that chance has some to do with it. I'd also say that people should understand that not all who live in poverty consider themselves deprived. Wealth, health, power- none of those actually causes happiness, so you can have none of the three and still be happy- which is what all of this is about anyway. Fun, excitement, and joy aren't happiness either, so I'm not saying everyone should slack off and just do the fun things in life.

The difficulty is defining compassion, love, etc. Instead of griping about how the current definition is problematic, why not redefine the ideas. Make everything more conceptual.


If sympathy with others is lacking, it will have to be acquired through one's own long and painful experience. This is the great law of life. Knowing this, keep guard over yourself!

I'd say that compassion is simply the continued recognition and acceptance of the fact that suffering exists. It doesn't single anyone out. You don't have to go out of your own way to help- you must first help yourself before you can help others- but you shouldn't be deluded into thinking that only you have troubles. I'm not saying that anyone is ignorant to the existence of suffering, but not many have a continued awareness of it. When people are elated or depressed, etc., they get caught up in the feeling most of the time and forget about the generality of suffering.

[paladinoflunaria]

I think that a lot of "compassion" and "sympathy" that people have is irrational. It is the wishy-washy kind that doesn't display an understanding. You've got to thuroughly understand the concept before you can teach it.

Every man is still and island, too. Everyone really has to internalize everything themselves, even with others' help, and it will always come down to that.

[shaytana]

I agree, I have always defined compassion as understanding.

[Johnny]

I'd say that compassion is simply the continued recognition and acceptance of the fact that suffering exists. It doesn't single anyone out.
Nice. Still, compassion is more than understanding. If no action is taken to alleviate the suffering of another also, then it's not really compassion. This statement is closer to empathy, I think. Still, it's very nice.

[paladinoflunaria]

Whether it seems pleasant or not, each must individually take the last step in the process. Helping others to take the last step is impossible.

[shaytana]

I'd say that compassion is simply the continued recognition and acceptance of the fact that suffering exists. It doesn't single anyone out.
Nice. Still, compassion is more than understanding. If no action is taken to alleviate the suffering of another also, then it's not really compassion. This statement is closer to empathy, I think. Still, it's very nice.

But what if for whatever reason you are unable to take action to ease the suffering. Does that mean that you then lack compassion?

[antireconciler]

If you actually understand when you say you do, you will automatically take the appropriate action.

jittus rye, you seem to shield youself from compassion. Like: 'Don't help me. I am my own power.' survival mode. It would fascinate me to see how people overcome this!

Perceptions of the external mirror the realities of the internal.

[shaytana]

If you actually understand when you say you do, you will automatically take the appropriate action.


And what if the appropriate action is to take no action at all.

And as paladinoflunaria said, ultimately the last step must be theirs, you can not force them to take it and if they refuse there is usually nothing you can do.

[Johnny]

By "nice", I meant "well said". :D

I want to muddy things up with some imaginary scenarios:

1) A baby is lying in a dumpster, alone and asleep. This baby is not crying or suggesting the need for immediate help.

2) A man is bleeding and lying on the street. He is screaming for help and waving a gun in one hand.

3) A woman is crying and confiding to me that her marriage is in a shambles. Her face is bruised and she is afraid to go back home. She says she doesn't know what to do or where to go, but asks for nothing.

Do any of these scenarios allow motivation to go beyond my understanding of universal suffering and take some action to help them? Why? If I take no action to help them, does this constitute the earning of resources that would othewise be diverted to these 3 individuals?

[Johnny]

I'd say that compassion is simply the continued recognition and acceptance of the fact that suffering exists. It doesn't single anyone out.
Nice. Still, compassion is more than understanding. If no action is taken to alleviate the suffering of another also, then it's not really compassion. This statement is closer to empathy, I think. Still, it's very nice.

But what if for whatever reason you are unable to take action to ease the suffering. Does that mean that you then lack compassion?

I understand that it is the intent of the effort that counts, not the results.

Edit: Nice also how the quotes regress visually.

[jittus rye]

1. The baby isn't able to understand what situation it is in, and hasn't developed enough to save itself, so it is in general, important to pull the child out of the garbage or tell someone there is a kid in the trash, even if no more can be done. The baby isn't suffering, but it would most likely die if compacted by a garbage truck.

2. One should probably call the police or tell someone to call the police, obviously some bad shit just went down. It is against the law to give the man physical assistance.

3. Offer her advice if you have any, and tell her to go to the police assault is a crime.

Other than a few moments of your time, you didn't lose much resources. I enjoy wasting my time to see out of the ordinary things take place or have out of the ordinary experiences. The government deals with situations like this, that is why they tax you.

[antireconciler]

And what if the appropriate action is to take no action at all.

Then no action is the appropriate action.


And as paladinoflunaria said, ultimately the last step must be theirs, you can not force them to take it and if they refuse there is usually nothing you can do.

There is no dispute here. If there is nothing you can do, no action is the appripriate action.

[Johnny]

Other than a few moments of your time, you didn't lose much resources.

Then, as you are willing to spend these small expenditures upon others, I sincerely wish for you to at least receive the same.

[antireconciler]

Other than a few moments of your time, you didn't lose much resources. I enjoy wasting my time to see out of the ordinary things take place or have out of the ordinary experiences. The government deals with situations like this, that is why they tax you.

This assumes it is possible to waste one's time. Diversion from routine is just an adventure. Then, routine is only routine because you think you know what life will bring you, and miss the opportunities to live because of it.

[shaytana]

Other than a few moments of your time, you didn't lose much resources. I enjoy wasting my time to see out of the ordinary things take place or have out of the ordinary experiences. The government deals with situations like this, that is why they tax you.

This assumes it is possible to waste one's time. Diversion from routine is just an adventure. Then, routine is only routine because you think you know what life will bring you, and miss the opportunities to live because of it.

Nice.

[Utopmk]

There are some who are not capable of helping themselves.
My mom is agoraphobic, so when my parents divorced and my dad refused to part with any money we had to force her to seek financial help.
She did not think she needed help, so she didn't help herself.
That does not mean she should not have been helped.

What I am seeing alot in this thread is the primitive tendency to starve the runt, or to kill the weakest link.

[antireconciler]

She did not think she needed help, so she didn't help herself.
That does not mean she should not have been helped.

You think you can judge what is best for other people? Is she better off now then she would have been? Are you sure?

[Utopmk]

She did not think she needed help, so she didn't help herself.
That does not mean she should not have been helped.

You think you can judge what is best for other people? Is she better off now then she would have been? Are you sure?

I most certainly can, especially for my own mother.

Absolutely.

Positive.

Now that she is back on her feet, she is taking online college courses, shes still agoraphobic, but thanks to the help she is finding ways to get by despite this.

[int]

Firechoice, I would tell you you are very fortunate your father was there and instilled these values. He has my respect. He taught you how to act like an adult.

Anyways, I'd suggest taking that line of thought to some thrid world country for some time, but I imagine you'll call them "uncivilized" or something.

Otherwise, I think your point is valid here in the 1st world.

[int]

Well, not you specifically Utopmk, but I do remember a post along those lines.

I was thinking more along the lines of Africa.

[Utopmk]

I realized you were not talking to me. lol
Thats why I deleted.

[antireconciler]

You think you can judge what is best for other people? ...

I most certainly can ...

So you know what is best for you and know what is best for other people, correct?

[flan2dave]

Punishment without justice inevitabely damages the community as a whole, weakening their ability to help themselves in the first place. Making a statement about to what degree people deserve these things doesn't make sense.

"I think any of us who imagine we are making it in life solely because we work hard and have desirable attributes are deluding ourselves. If any of us think there are people in the world who don't deserve our love, compassion, and help, then we are only imposing characteristics we do not like upon others to avoid facing the ugly parts of ourselves. "

Exactly, though there are more reasons why one may think somebody doesn't deserve love, compassion, and help. All rooted in fear.

[Utopmk]

You think you can judge what is best for other people? ...

I most certainly can ...

So you know what is best for you and know what is best for other people, correct?

Now, you are just making assumptions.

[antireconciler]

Now, you are just making assumptions.

Very true. That's why I asked. It would be much easier if you offered more information. I just thought I'd skip straight to what I was trying to get at. Edited, I shouldn't be mean.

[Utopmk]

In the immediate sense of the word "others" I usually do know what is best.

My point was that sometimes people need help, and aren't able to recognize that they need it.

Do not try to discredit that by asking questions that do not relate.

[meta]

what about having enough social welfare, that you don't need to worry about getting shot by angry poor people. no matter how smart and together you are, the side effects of other people's problems can effect you negatively. are you so principled, that you want to put your life at risk by cultivating a large population of angry poor people (even if their poverty is their fault).

[jittus rye]

what about having enough social welfare, that you don't need to worry about getting shot by angry poor people. no matter how smart and together you are, the side effects of other people's problems can effect you negatively. are you so principled, that you want to put your life at risk by cultivating a large population of angry poor people (even if their poverty is their fault).

That is a very real problem. You are very much right, and there isn't anything untrue about what you said. The only option is forced labor camps I'd say. happppy

People could perhaps go on paroll for good behavior if they promissed to try outside of the camps.

Talk about sewing the seeds of an evil empire.

[Division56]

I think we all need to swarm jittus rye and kick him to death now before he becomes a dictator and imprisons us all.

[int]

Or work with Firechoice to get on the inside...

hmm....

[Johnny]

Other than a few moments of your time, you didn't lose much resources. I enjoy wasting my time to see out of the ordinary things take place or have out of the ordinary experiences. The government deals with situations like this, that is why they tax you.

This assumes it is possible to waste one's time. Diversion from routine is just an adventure. Then, routine is only routine because you think you know what life will bring you, and miss the opportunities to live because of it.

Nice.
:cheers:

[Google Monster]

Your mind may make it seem like your stepping ahead but your feet still step on the same flat road as everyone else.

[int]

Your mind may make it seem like your stepping ahead but your feet still step on the same flat road as everyone else.


I'll need that one later. Is there a source?

[paladinoflunaria]

Then, as you are willing to spend these small expenditures upon others, I sincerely wish for you to at least receive the same.

This statement shows that you have created love's own contrasts. You imply that you would spend larger expenditures on others who spend larger expenditures, and you would spend smaller expenditures on those who spend smaller expenditures. This is unequal treatment and not unconditional love. Shows how lofty your ideals are. -_-


There are some who are not capable of helping themselves.

I don't think so. Inescapable subjectivity, remember. If your mother can't help herself in her perception of reality, she is doomed, so you're only wasting your time because you can't do everything for her.


I think we all need to swarm jittus rye and kick him to death now before he becomes a dictator and imprisons us all.

Wow, turn down the spite (even if it is lighthearted)!


2. One should probably call the police or tell someone to call the police, obviously some bad shit just went down. It is against the law to give the man physical assistance.

Shows how morally/ethically developed the majority of the population is.


And as paladinoflunaria said, ultimately the last step must be theirs, you can not force them to take it and if they refuse there is usually nothing you can do.

Replace usually nothing with never anything. They must internalize everything themselves, according to their own perceptions. What if other people perceive a world vastly different from yours, such as a world where humans are actually some alien creature and the English, etc. language doesn't exist, and even though you perceive them to speak english, they perceive something totally different. This presents difficulty. They are really alone, becuase you will never be sure that another perceives the same world as you do, because their description of their own perspective is only as you perceive it.

[Google Monster]

I just typed what I thought so the source is me.

[jittus rye]

Well, I finished my report for school, and looking at people's opinions gave me a few ideas.

" It is quite a rareity for a novel to bring up so many social issues while the main character, author himself leaves the reader constantly wanting to know more, but that is just what Timequake by Kurt Vonnegut does. Timequake is the most experimental novel in structure I have ever read. It is a satire, staring the author on an autobiographical science fiction journey. A great many of the ideas in it are shared with the book God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater, but it contains much more material that resembles the shedding of a tear for the loss of American values. Both books contained persausive imagery and a similar dark satirical writing style. There is abundance of human interest questions that lay sprawling about in each, and Kurt's admitted socialist views are seen quite clearly in Timequake. The thoughts on humanity and other values can be strikingly compared.

The main idea both novels were trying to get across was humanity should be more humane. Timequake questions the belief in the sanity of the world. "Imagine this:," Vonnegut goes on, "A great American university gives up football in the name of sanity. It turns its vacant stadium into a bomb factory." What Vonnegut has tried to ask here is why in the world would someone give up a perfectly safe, healthy, and patriotic activity in order to make devices of homicide? This happened only during a time of war, but it certainly doesn't follow the definition of the word sane to the letter. Vonnegut goes on to mention the creator of an atomic weapon winning the Nobel Peace Prize. If atomic weapons aren't something that are a burden to humanity, what are? God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater expresses these very same beliefs in a more subtle manner, and that is by using the reverse scenerio. The sanity of only one man, Mr. Rosewater, is questioned. Throughout the novel his acts of selfless love for the fellow human, are rampent. He tries to do something good for everyone that asks of his help, believeing that everyone has some good in them and that all humans are equal. His family and circle of friends firmly disagree. They thought everyone should get what they deserve. Rosewater thought this too. He poses this question: "Why should one baby be born owning a large portion of the resources, when another is born with nothing?" Rosewater thinks that the resources should be shared, everyone else calls him crazy for it. Quite obviously the attitude of the time period was every man for himself, and anti-communism. In Timequake, Vonnegut puts it bluntly and says: "being alive is a crock of shit." This statement is partly because of the lack of ties humans share with one another, no longer participating in many matters and family and also what he believe's is humanity's lack of essence, awareness, and perhaps even soul.

With such an attitude, it is no wonder that both novels bring up the futility of the American Dream. In God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater, Fred Rosewater is a prime example of what it degrades people to become. As Fred states: "I've done what I can for [my wife]; God knows it isn't enough. Nothing could be enough." Fred was worth forty-two thousand dollars dead, and often thought about suicide. He was living the American Dream, and could put on a show to make others believe he had a life of ease. Timequake mocks the modern American Dream by showing the autonomousity in the means through which it must be achieved. Human's are literally driven by machines, and other trivalities as the 10 year timequake wears on. Freewill no longer exsists, everything had already taken place it was "10 years of automatic pilot," so living was one long utterly dull deja vu. During this period people realized that their lives were so meaningless and worthless. When the time quake finally ends everyone except for Kilgore Trout has post timequake apathy. Unfortunately the world didn't stop after the timequake ended, and many people were hurt by crashing vehicles or simply falling over. Kilgore Trout, Vonnegut's alter ego, already knew life as most people lived it was meaningless and worthless. Vonnegut goes on to express sorrow for how behavior runs like clockwork, and that the spirit of anything that had been a dream has died.

Vonnegut refers to himself as a sufferor of monopolar depression in the middle of the novel Timequake. His dark humor and honesty shines through both books with various references to World War II, just as one example. In God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater Eliot Rosewater is greated by a Nazi Sympathizer. "Heil Hitler," Eliot is greated, and then again "Heil Hitler." Vonnegut beaitfully writes next: "'And Heil Hitler to you, sir,' said Eliot smiling, 'and good-bye.'" In Timequake, when Vonnegut speaks of his return from the war his uncle Dan tells him that he is a man, now that he's been through the war. Vonnegut states: "I nearly killed my first German." Right then and there. He even speaks of a German officer who has wasted the last 10 years of his life on participating in the Nazi cause, this could certainly be considered a real-life example of a timequake! An even more common truth that is expressed in God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater is that money truely is power, and the value of all things material are meaningless. Eliot believes he is edowed with the powers of God at the end of the novel, telling his offspring: "Be fruithful, and multiply." The rich will pay any sum of money, for anything. Vonnegut reaffirms this idea in Timequake while talking about art.

In conclusion, although Timequake and God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater are novels of stuningly different outward appearance, when examined more closely it is seen that Vonnegut still trys to use his cold socialist humor to get some very similar main points across. Though Vonnegut may be depressive, his views of humanity are argued very convincingly combining laughter into the mix. It can be said that he is a Satirist wielding morals through a dark sword of reality."

[Johnny]

Quote:
Then, as you are willing to spend these small expenditures upon others, I sincerely wish for you to at least receive the same.


This statement shows that you have created love's own contrasts. You imply that you would spend larger expenditures on others who spend larger expenditures, and you would spend smaller expenditures on those who spend smaller expenditures. This is unequal treatment and not unconditional love. Shows how lofty your ideals are.
Paladinoflunaria, if I were in a joking mood and did not fear that you would misunderstand and hurt yourself, I would say "thou art god".

[Johnny]

Quote:
Then, as you are willing to spend these small expenditures upon others, I sincerely wish for you to at least receive the same.


This statement shows that you have created love's own contrasts. You imply that you would spend larger expenditures on others who spend larger expenditures, and you would spend smaller expenditures on those who spend smaller expenditures. This is unequal treatment and not unconditional love. Shows how lofty your ideals are.
Paladinoflunaria, if I were in a joking mood and did not fear that you would misunderstand and hurt yourself, I would say "thou art god".

[paladinoflunaria]

I love you, man.

[Johnny]

I love you, man.
:cheers:

[Crazy]

Quick question, how/when/where did it become illegal to render physical assistance to the man in situation 2?

[jittus rye]

In situation two, if you provide medical assitance and are not qualified to, and the man dies, you can get in trouble, or sued.

[Crazy]

What about the "good Samaritan" law?

[Crazy]

And that hardly makes it illegal

[Google Monster]

lol

[gals]

I think everyone should help themselves. The only time people need help is when they are physicologically ill, but do not realize it, and have the means to pay for their treatment. There have been times when I have turned down, and when I haven't turned down, poor kids in my neighborhood selling candy for a dollar. There is mutual respect between most people. Respect is more important than compassion. If the kid plays his or her little cards right, and doesn't act like a jackass, and I want that chocolate being the pigish American that I am then I will gladly hand over my 10 minutes worth of manual labor form of currancy for a chocolate bar. I will not however hand money over to a begger or someone that doesn't treat the person they are begging from with respect. I am sure some of you are familiar with the "Lion's Club." They stand outside of stores every Christmas or fund raising season or so collecting loose change for maybe a tootsey roll or just a godbless. I've given to these people on several occasions. Be it for veterans of war or for homeless children. It comes down to mutual respect.

I've had people not of my family live in my household before. One little black girl who was of a crack whore white mother, which i like as much as my sisters stayed in my household on and off for over a years time total.

I have lived alone with my father when we were at the very bottom of the lower class, not homeless though, my father isn't ignorant. He worked everyday and paid the rent, fed myself, and then fed himself. I've been in many locations and I think it is safe to say people can move around if something isn't working for them.

My opinions on compassion, starting as follows are this:

1. All people who need some type of help don't deserve the help. But it doesn't mean they can't get it if they try hard enough. People in the civilized world just don't randomly starve to death, there is a process that takes place before this happens, and they can fail to go on living if they're ignorant enough.

-No one Deserves anything, the only thing that is deserved are punishments, not justice, but punishments, the term justice implies something good, and people don't deserve good or bad. They only deserve cause and effect. And that my friend, is punishment.

2. If people are helped instead of made to suffer, they will not become useful to society. Sometimes the suffering may lead tp people trying to stop the suffering, getting a job, trying harder in life, establishing plans, making goals, or commiting suicide. Either way people are made to do what is natural to them. Try to survive, to better themselves, and become more advanced. The will to survive is greater than the gift of compassion.

3. This brings us to the useless and helpless. These are the people which I haveth not any compassion whatsoever for. Darwinian theory at its best. Ahh, human nature, I love it.

Afterwards: Here we have learned that people, humans do not need the idea of compassion. The only ones that need survive and prosper are those with good minds, and good genes. This unfortunately isn't the case, and the shit of society lives on, forever infesting the gene pool of humanity. Thanks to all the bleeding hearts and welfare programs.

Feel free to respond with any thoughts on this.


All people deserve all kinds of help. You'll never know when you will need another person's help. That's why if you think you will be of service to someone, help anyway. What goes around comes around. Let's spread some good karma. Because it will return to you a hundred fold.