GW Bush's Type

[PonderBee]

Not being well versed in the various personality types I can not peg this man. In my view the US could have done much better in selecting a representative. The man often appears to be a clueless oaf - especially during international travel (give me strength - he's out there now 8O). For the life of me I am hardpressed to belive that he actually won either election - what is the appeal?!

What is your opinion as to
- GW's personality type?
- why so many people find this man appealing.

[Eileen]

hmm---just instinctively, I say either ESFJ or ESFP. Thinking doesn't appear to be his strong suit... And I have a hard time choosing between the dogmatic Jesus fiend and the thrill seeking WHEEE LET'S GO TO WAR! fiend. (Either way, he's a fiend.)

[Eileen]

- why so many people find this man appealing.


People find him appealing because they think that conservative Christian=moral and they value security over freedom.

[Geoff]

People find him appealing? I hadnt heard that theory before ;).

It is moral strength and decision making that he is valued for, perhaps.

So maybe we need to give him a 'J' type for his believe in World Order and fast action (well, American World Order).

-Geoff

[Shai Gar]

the man is not an extravert, he spent a good nine months from when he was posted as president to when the twin towers were smashed in like you would smash a watermelon with a baseball bat, on holiday. so ISFP maybe, you are right he seems to be a feeler, he is not a J type, and he definately isnt either imaginative or extraverted

[CoHo]

You can't type the mentally disabled

[Birdsnest]

I think he is introverted too, he doesn't do much public relations and when he does he is not very good at it. If he were an extrovert, he'd have more "energy" in his eyes and be able to convince people with his words.

His eyes and facial expressions are flat.

From a website on isfj's:
"ISFJs have a very clear idea of the way things should be, which they strive to attain. They value security and kindness, and respect traditions and laws. They tend to believe that existing systems are there because they work. Therefore, they're not likely to buy into doing things in a new way, unless they're shown in a concrete way why its better than the established method.

Since ISFP is an Artist, I do not see him as being sensitive or artistic or concerned about how things "look". So I think he might be an ISFJ.

http://www.personalitypage.com/ISFJ.html

Or, wait, perhaps ISTJ?

http://www.personalitypage.com/ISTJ.html

[garak]

An I? Have you seen how he interacts with people? To me he is blatantly E. I'd say ESFJ or ESTJ. Probably F.

[CreativeChaos]

NO WAY!


He is DEFINITELY an ESTP. It is his wife the school teacher who is an ISFJ.

SHE, keeps his foot in the feeling ground, because HE HAS NONE! THat's why you see him sticking his foot in his mouth so frequently. He has no sense of diplomacy.

I have no idea why people like him sense I can't stand him. Of course I can't stand ESTPs Period. THat's why I recognize one when I see one.

[garak]

ESTPs don't care about crap the way he does. He's way too adamant about his "convictions."

[garak]

And look at how he blabs about "hard work" and "doing what's right." Total SJ.

[melancholeric]

Not knowing him personally, difficult to say anything.

SJ seems obvious though, given his moral and religious stances, his decisions about Iraq and his inability to even consider the possibility that he might have done something wrong. Besides, SJs want executive power.

Edited to add:
Has been discussed before.
http://www.intpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=832

[CreativeChaos]

And look at how he blabs about "hard work" and "doing what's right." Total SJ.

No. That's his wife's influence. You know how he talks about his wife keeping him "straght"? That's because he is an ESTP and they NEED an SJ to keep them in line.

He is impulsive, he is not a hands on President, and he can't remember facts and details. He allows others to do the detail work for him.


He has talked about his drinking problem in his youth. Most SJ youth's do NOT get into any problems of this sort. They are too straight. Plus he doesn't know shit about economics. He just follows what the SJs tell him to do. He is playing an SJ public persona, and surrounds himselfs with SJs BUT he is an

ESTP

[garak]

No. That's his wife's influence. You know how he talks about his wife keeping him "straght"? That's because he is an ESTP and they NEED an SJ to keep them in line.

He is impulsive, he is not a hands on President, and he can't remember facts and details. He allows others to do the detail work for him.


He has talked about his drinking problem in his youth. Most SJ youth's do NOT get into any problems of this sort. They are too straight. Plus he doesn't know shit about economics. He just follows what the SJs tell him to do. He is playing an SJ public persona, and surrounds himselfs with SJs BUT he is an

ESTP
Interesting .. he was head of the cheerleading squad after all. He seems like he was an SP that grew into an SJ, but of course I don't believe in that changing types stuff. The neocon cronies are the SJs, that makes sense. Weird. To think that I like ESTPs, and GWB is one .. very weird.

(edit: it also explains his appeal)

[CreativeChaos]

Interesting .. he was head of the cheerleading squad after all. He seems like he was an SP that grew into an SJ, but of course I don't believe in that changing types stuff. The neocon cronies are the SJs, that makes sense. Weird. To think that I like ESTPs, and GWB is one .. very weird.

(edit: it also explains his appeal)

You're right on garak. Head of a cheerleading squad is VERY SP. He has , like many SPs, learned to be and follow SJs ideals. HIs father the Senior Bush seems SJ. But George is too "playful".

SPs can have great charisma. Most politicians are SPs. That's from an MBTI stats book on careers.

Edit: And NT and SPs are NOT diametrically opposed. NFs and SPs are which is why I have a natural dislike of him. (Another clue, that is an obvious one to me. I can spot ESTPs a mile away. They just turn on my UUccckkk mode).

[Birdsnest]

Here are two links that give both of the Bushes types:

1). George W. Bush ESTJ http://www.typelogic.com/estj.html (the son)
http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/gwbbio.html (check out the Barney cam)

2). George H. W. Bush ISTJ http://www.typelogic.com/istj.html (the father)

[CreativeChaos]

Here are two links that give both of the Bushes types:

1). George W. Bush ESTJ http://www.typelogic.com/estj.html (the son)
http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/gwbbio.html (check out the Barney cam)

2). George H. W. Bush ISTJ http://www.typelogic.com/istj.html (the father)

Sorry. I don't believe it. George Bush is an ESTP. He busted his businesses. A fighter piolet is another VERY SP thing to do.

I totally agree that the father is an ISTJ.

If I had a faster hookup, I"d get the ESTP site for you, but I can look it up in my Kiersy book quicker.

ESTPs are condidered "THE PROMOTER" The art of putting forth an enterprise and then of the winning of others to your side...

In orientation they are practical, optimistic, cynical, and focused on the here and now.

Intellectually they are prone to practice tactics more than logistics, stratagey and especially dipolomacy.

Promoters are so engaging with people that they migtht seem to possess and unusual amount of empathy, when it is not the case.

Promoters can be hard nosed utilitarians, willing to do whatever it takes to achieve thier goals, and it is this utilitarianism that allows them to be such capable troubleshootes and negotiators.

Blah!!! Just READ the ESTP descriptions. He is TOTALLY ESTP!

[garak]

It's funny because when he's being SP, I find him likeable (predictably). The stupid jokes, the flipping the camera off, etc. -- I like that. It's when he "plays" an SJ that I really dislike him.

(and I'm just talking personality here, not politics)

[Birdsnest]

Yes but look at the examples of people that are estp and compare them with examples of people that are estj.

Estp's:
Mae West
Ernest Hemingway
Lucille Ball
Roy Rogers
Doris Day
Chuck Yeager
Jack Nicholson
Eddie Murphy
Jimmy Conners
Madonna
Cybil Shepherd
Bruce Willis
Michael J. Fox
Joan Cusack


Estj's:
Carrie Nation
Elliot Ness
John D. Rockefeller
Bette Davis
Robert A. Taft (U.S. senator, son of Pres. Wm. H. Taft)
Sam Walton, owner and founder of WalMart stores
Barbara Stanwyck
Rev. Billy Graham
Dale Bumpers (U.S. Senator, D-Arkansas)
Phil Fulmer, head football coach of the U. Tenn Vols
Pat Head Summit, head basketball coach of the Lady Vols
Bill Frist, M.D. (U.S. Senate Majority Leader


To me he seems more like the list of estj's personalities (more Cancerian). The first list of estp's are very much like the LEO personality - bubbly, dramatic and attention loving. So, I just don't see him as sapping up so much attention, he is less dramatic, more of a follower of rules, so I see more estj myself. And if he broke a lot of rules when younger, I think it was just rebelliousness. I'm sure that some J's break the rules sometimes.

[garak]

Stiff? Not bubbly and full of personality? You sound like you've only seen him when he's playing politician. He's quite fun when he's given a chance to not be serious. Very non-SJ-like. And that borderline stuff is mumbo jumbo IMO.

[Elro]

Yep, I'd definitely say ESP, probably ESTP. Don't forget all of the avoiding the military and whatnot. Does that sound very SJ?

Edit: as a side note, that Barney video is one of the corniest movies I've sat through in a long time.

[PonderBee]

Perhap's GW's true personality is ESTP - considering that he was quite a screw-up and partier for much of his life. The ESTJ may be the mask he put's on via the management team he surrounds himself with. Without Cheney and Renfield and, of course GH I doubt that the rightwing populus would have much use for GW. At any rate, in my book GW is definitely an extrovert.

[pintpi]

Birdsnest had it right I think, ISFJ. The profile fits him exactly. I could back that up with examples but I am not interested in it enough to argue about it, just stating my opinion.

[CreativeChaos]

Okay. I did it. Here is a site describing ESTPs.

http://keirsey.com/operators.html

I have personnally know VERY well ESTPs and ESFPs. IT is the ESFPs we think of as the typciall "fun loving" Entertainers. I think a lot of movie stars are incorrectly typed as ESTPs when they are ESFPs. There IS a big difference between the two.

ESTPs are fun, but in a more "stoical" manner than ESFPs. George Bush is JUST LIKE my ESTP friends. He is NOT as "stiff" as ESTJs I have known. Please read this description. THere is NO way he is an introvert.

He is ESTP, Aritisan Promotor. Classic Politician Type. NOT Entertainer. That's ENFP.

[CreativeChaos]

http://keirsey.com/knownartisans.html

And HERE is the list given of ESTP politicians by Kiersy:

Franklin D. Roosevelt

Winston Churchill

Theodore Roosevelt

Boris Yeltsin

General George Patton

Donald Trump

Do THESE strke you as "bubbly"? NO! ESTPs are NOT bubbly! You;re thinking ES --F ---P

It is ES---F--Ps who are "bubbly".

[Architectonic]

I definitely believe he is an SJ. Just because he is an SJ doesn't mean he wasn't a spoilt brat.

[garak]

I definitely believe he is an SJ. Just because he is an SJ doesn't mean he wasn't a spoilt brat.
Being spoiled doesn't make an SJ be a cheerleading jokester who did cocaine.

[Miss Anthropic]

the man is not an extravert, he spent a good nine months from when he was posted as president to when the twin towers were smashed in like you would smash a watermelon with a baseball bat, on holiday. so ISFP maybe, you are right he seems to be a feeler, he is not a J type, and he definately isnt either imaginative or extraverted
Nah, George Bush is an extrovert. It is where you get your energy from....people or seclusion. He feeds off other people. I don't like him as a president, but I think he would be fun to go to a bar with and have a beer or two (ie; party material, not presidential material) I would say ESFP. He's NOT a Thinker, that's for certain. He has staff to compensate for that...which brings up another point....it really is hard to decipher what type a president might be because they have speech writers to craft the message for them. I can't imagine an Intorvert politician today though. It would be too painful on a daily basis to keep that kind of schedule dealing with people all day everyday.

[PonderBee]

I can't imagine an Intorvert politician today though. It would be too painful on a daily basis to keep that kind of schedule dealing with people all day everyday.
True. I'd say that Al Gore is evidence of this ... During his Presidential campaign Gore tried on the skin of an extrovert and he always seemed forced and less than comfortable in that skin - he could not pull it off.

[abiyoyo]

GW Bush is ISFJ.
He has a very slow verbal wit when required to give off the cuff remarks, or read without a script. If he was an E, or a P, he'd be better at spontaneity and quick comebacks--but he is pathetically slow on the draw, verbally, and has to resort to cliches .
GW Bush is ISFJ.
And the exaggerated, hackneyed "tough guy" cliches he uses, like the gazillion times he's "gonna smoke 'em (terrorists) out", is perfectly in keeping with a Feeling male. Feeling males, much like ISFP Hemingway, are the guys who feel the need to exaggerate their macho-ness. T males are cooler, calmer about being assertive.
GW Bush is ISFJ.
Bush does not react well spontaneously to ANYthing--as everybody saw when he sat on his duff for 20 minutes, reading kiddie stories in a kiddie classroom, after being told about the CIA-orchestrated 911 terrorist strikes. And then, for the next two days, Bush flew around in a plane, terribly slow to react, before being "prepped" by his handlers, no doubt. This shows how wrong Keirsey is when he mistypes Bush Jr. as estp. Just the fact that Bush was in a class of kiddies reading kiddie books belies the fact that he is ISFJ.
I laugh when I hear people say how Bush "had to pull himself up by his bootstraps, estp-style, or entj-style" in this or that industry. What a crack up. We must not confuse the media image of the man with the actual man. Like ANYbody who's dad was already president and head of CIA, and ANYbody who is a member of Skull and Bones, ever had to pull himself up out of ANYthing. The guy was handed everything he has.
GW Bush is ISFJ.
If you've ever studied hours of the 2000 republicrat presidential debates, and saw how INFP Alan Keyes ripped Bush and all the others a new one, you would see how horrible Bush is without a script, when he is called upon to be E-or-P spontaneous. The man is no P, and no T, and no E, and no N.
GW Bush is ISFJ.
During 911, Bush acquiesced the duty of handling the "nuclear football" to TJ handler Dick Cheney. No entj would give up that authority; no estp would do that. But an ISFJ might do that.
GW Bush is an ISFJ.
I have heard his love of the ranch life and cowboy boots and what-all is "proof" of his being an ESTP. Baloney. It is proof of ISFJ love of home and hearth.
I have also heard it argued that no F could go around bombing people. This is dangerous thought: Hitler himself was probably an F (probably INFP) and he didn't seem to mind bombing and exterminating people. Evil transcends type.
(Note: interestingly, Hitler too said he was a Christian, when he really was a devout occultist. And to this day, whenever asked to renounce his occultist Skull and Bones oaths, as the Bible DEMANDS, Bush Jr ducks the question. Hmmm.)
And the fact that GW Bush used to be a drunk or something does not mean he was a fun-loving P, either. Remember: Bush has been handed everything he has. ANY teenager with that kind of silver spoon is likely to get into trouble. And, on a personal note, I have five brothers and I have typed them all. One of them is an ISFJ, and he drinks more than any of us.
BTW, I do believe an ISFJ could make a highly competent leader (see Tom Hanks' role in "Saving Pvt. Ryan").
I just don't think Bush is even remotely competent.
But I do believe he is an ISFJ.
You must not confuse the man with the manufactured, propagandized, controlled-major-media image of the man.

[Architectonic]

Maybe he doesn't have a personality and is a puppet instead? :P

[Architectonic]

I've thought about this some more and there may be a possibility of him being an ESTP puppeteered by SJs.

Also, I heard there were other pictures (at other locations) of Bush doing the "middle finger salute", not just the one from the video that everyone has already seen. Has anyone found them?

[Albino Sartan]

GW Bush is ISFJ.
...the CIA-orchestrated 911 terrorist strikes1...If you've ever studied hours of the 2000 republicrat presidential debates, and saw how INFP Alan Keyes ripped Bush and all the others a new one2...

1: You're not used to having your political notions challenged are you? What evidence other than the fevered speculation and innuendo of left wing rags do you have for this highly debatable assertion?

2: A compliment for Alan Keyes! I approve. :thumbup: We oughta make him the first REAL black President. Then Bill Clinton can be restored to his rightful status, as described by Charles Rangel (D-NY)--simple redneck. :devil:

[mgb]

And look at how he blabs about "hard work" and "doing what's right." Total SJ.

He's not though. He has to be to be President, but he really doesn't follow all that crap that comes out of his mouth. Look at his life before he became Govenor. Ditching the reserves. Frat parties (tell me he was there for the "tradition").

I say he is ISTP. He takes the most vacations. He meets with the press the least. Unless an event is completely staged he won't attend. He was crap in the debates for the last election. He seemed so uncomfortable up there. And CC is right about his T vs F.

As for his dogmatic convictions, he either has no clue what is actually going on, which is entirely possible given the company he keeps or he has so much "J" influence in his life, he couldn't possibly change paths if he wanted to (hence all the vacation time).

[booyalab]

He's NOT a Thinker, that's for certain

SP thinkers dont have the same types of intelligence as NTs. Also, just because you dont think someone's intelligent doesn't make them a T. You must not follow much of politics at all, in fact, because he almost always makes "T" decisions...and if it appears he's not, it's because he's using a political tactic. I found an article with the argument that GW is an ESTP. It also argues that Gore is an INTP, which I'm biased against, since I cant stand Gore...but then again there are INTPs on here I dont like.
http://slate.msn.com/id/90167/


The quiz asks questions such as: "Are you inclined to be a. easy to approach; b. somewhat reserved." (You don't need to have been on the campaign bus to know that Bush would answer a. and Gore b.) "In most situations are you more a. deliberate than spontaneous; b. spontaneous than deliberate." (Gore a, Bush b.) "Facts a. speak for themselves; b. illustrate principles." (Bush a, Gore b.) Using Keirsey's system, Bush is Expressive/Observant/Tough-Minded/Probing, an ESTP. Is he ever. They are charming seekers of excitement who are easily bored, have little tolerance for theory or self-examination, who want to have impact, and can confidently make swift decisions. They are a familiar type because, Keirsey says, they are about 10 percent of the population. The Bush advisers weren't wrong when they decided to sell their guy's personality. People like ESTPs. Americans like to elect them president. According to Keirsey, there were four of them in the last century: Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, John Kennedy, and Lyndon Johnson.

They can be "charismatic political leaders," according to Please Understand Me II, which calls the ESTP "The Promoter." (The book also says his type would enjoy "working the oil fields.") Here's a description of the ESTP: "[T]hey are extremely attentive to others and smooth in social circles, knowing many, many people by name, and knowing how to say just the right thing to most everyone they meet. None are as socially sophisticated as they … and none such master manipulators of the people around them … they are uncanny at reading people's faces and observing their body language, hypersensitive to the tiniest nonverbal cues that give away the other's attitudes." Now compare the generic ESTP with this take on Bush by Nicholas Lemann of The New Yorker: "What Bush does with people is establish a direct, personal connection—a vector of just-you-and-me. … [H]e was almost glowing with the pleasure of being down in the room with his folks; pulling his face close to other faces, draping his arms across shoulders, kissing old ladies … remembering the names of people who hadn't expected to have their names remembered. … He made you feel drawn to him without feeling so strongly drawn to him that it was frightening."

Type Talk, by Otto Kroeger and Janet M. Thuesen, gives "The Ultimate Realist" rubric to ESTP. Here's their description: "This heavily action-oriented type, more than any other type, lives for the moment." Bush on Bush: "I live in the moment."—Time, Aug. 7, 2000. Type Talk: "[T]heir fearlessness in trying anything at least once, and their keen sense of competition, makes ESTPs doers, problem-solvers." Bush on Bush: "I'm a doer. I'm a problem-solver."—New York Times, June 19, 2000. Bush's lack of self-reflection actually reflects a certain self-understanding. From Please Understand Me II: "No high-flown speculation … no deep meaning or introspection." Bush on Bush: "Now that we've gotten into the kind of psychoanalyst world of trying to figure me out, I think it's—I say that sarcastically because, you know, this is not the way I am."—New York Times, June 19, 2000.

[booyalab]

I say he is ISTP.

An example of an ISTP is Clint Eastwood.

Bush is obviously an extroverted version of him.

[s0978]

Nah, George Bush is an extrovert. It is where you get your energy from....people or seclusion. He feeds off other people. I don't like him as a president, but I think he would be fun to go to a bar with and have a beer or two (ie; party material, not presidential material) I would say ESFP. He's NOT a Thinker, that's for certain. He has staff to compensate for that...which brings up another point....it really is hard to decipher what type a president might be because they have speech writers to craft the message for them. I can't imagine an Intorvert politician today though. It would be too painful on a daily basis to keep that kind of schedule dealing with people all day everyday.

I'm tossing my vote in for ESFP. I doubt he's a T either, and not because he IS dumb, but because of the fun guy rep. The brilliant political tactics - Karl Rove et al.

[booyalab]

You know what's a good idea before you try to type someone? read the corresponding type description.
:banghead:

[booyalab]

I'm tossing my vote in for ESFP. I doubt he's a T either, and not because he IS dumb, but because of the fun guy rep.

You just contradicted yourself. ESFPs who are 'dumb' dont become president, they become self-indulgent. (eventually perishing in a delightful mix of sperm and vomit)

[booyalab]

The brilliant political tactics - Karl Rove et al.
NO, *more incessant head banging* Karl Rove is a STRATEGIST. Holy shit people

[s0978]

NO, *more incessant head banging* Karl Rove is a STRATEGIST. Holy shit people

Ooh, you a little testy today, booya? Not sure why you think I've contradicted myself. I don't buy that winning presidency is proof of 'not dumb,' or that he's faking stupidity for political maneuvering. What am I not getting in what you're saying?

[booyalab]

Ooh, you a little testy today, booya? Not sure why you think I've contradicted myself. I don't buy that winning presidency is proof of 'not dumb,' or that he's faking stupidity for political maneuvering. What am I not getting in what you're saying?

Nah, not testy....that's my sense of humor.

ESFPs who dont develop their inferior functions and are exposed to any stress whatsoever just immerse themselves in being impulsive and having fun without any concern as to the consequences. (hence the vomit and sperm) Courtney Love is a good example of a "dumb" ESFP. If Bush was a "dumb" ESFP, he would probably be dead or incarcerated by now. A dumb ESTP can still function because the Se as dominant with Ti as auxilliary gives them a greater sense of purpose. Would you say that Bush is functioning? I would.

BTW, I'm operating with an ambiguous definition of "dumb" to accomodate yours

[C.J.Woolf]

If Bush was a "dumb" ESFP, he would probably be dead or incarcerated by now.
If Bush was a "poor" ESFP he would probably be dead or incarcerated by now. His family and retainers rescued him from all the trouble he would have gotten into. A poor man doesn't get that kind of help.

[booyalab]

If Bush was a "poor" ESFP he would probably be dead or incarcerated by now. His family and retainers rescued him from all the trouble he would have gotten into. A poor man doesn't get that kind of help.


You're absolutely right. I've never ever heard of a non-poor person becoming deterimentally self-indulgent.

Bush made the decision on his own to stop his alcoholism.

[Architectonic]

Bush is also mentioned on this page: ;)

http://socioniko.narod.ru/en/celebr/et-cel.html

[In...TP]

I vote ESTP. Entrepreneurial, solicitous, going it on his own, married an SJ, surrounded himself with NT's, Attorney General SJ, Secretary of State NF....

[meshou]

Seems like an ESFJ to me.

[booyalab]

Bush is also mentioned on this page: ;)

http://socioniko.narod.ru/en/celebr/et-cel.html

Hitler ENFJ?!?
Che ENFJ?!?
(Bush an N?!?)
:rofl:
Oh yeah I put a lot of stock in those assessments

[C.J.Woolf]

Bush made the decision on his own to stop his alcoholism.
I'll give him credit for that. But he didn't give up the booze until age 40 and he pretty much a fuckup until then. He had a very good family safety net protecting him from the consequences of his actions and it's debatable how he would have fared without it. Maybe he would have cleaned up his act earlier if he had been on his own... maybe not.

[s0978]

Nah, not testy....that's my sense of humor.

ESFPs who dont develop their inferior functions and are exposed to any stress whatsoever just immerse themselves in being impulsive and having fun without any concern as to the consequences. (hence the vomit and sperm) Courtney Love is a good example of a "dumb" ESFP. If Bush was a "dumb" ESFP, he would probably be dead or incarcerated by now. A dumb ESTP can still function because the Se as dominant with Ti as auxilliary gives them a greater sense of purpose. Would you say that Bush is functioning? I would.

BTW, I'm operating with an ambiguous definition of "dumb" to accomodate yours

Yes, usually I know you are just being funny, just harder to see when it's being directed at me. :D ESFPs/ESTPs - whatever, I'm sure you're more familiar with the types than I. But, if only for the sake of argument, are you saying ESFPs by definition MUST fall into and wallow in "vomit and sperm," and ultimately so? Surely not all stressed out ESFPs degenerate into such a mess -- and also stay there?

I agree with CJW -- I'd say W was down there at a bottom, but privilege and also that getting "born again" helped reverse that downward spiral.

[Edmond Zedo]

I haven't read this thread, but FYI he's ESTP.

I strongly suspect Dick Cheney of being INTP.

[booyalab]

Yes, usually I know you are just being funny, just harder to see when it's being directed at me. :D ESFPs/ESTPs - whatever, I'm sure you're more familiar with the types than I. But, if only for the sake of argument, are you saying ESFPs by definition MUST fall into and wallow in "vomit and sperm," and ultimately so? Surely not all stressed out ESFPs degenerate into such a mess -- and also stay there?

I agree with CJW -- I'd say W was down there at a bottom, but privilege and also that getting "born again" helped reverse that downward spiral.

ESFP is to falling and wallowing in vomit and sperm as INTJ is to Lord Sauron.