Delisting of the Gray Wolf

[Delilah]

Gray wolves are being officially delisted from the endangered species act in the Northern rockies.

Too soon? Not soon enough?

http://www.sunherald.com/447/story/384738.html

http://www.fws.gov/news/NewsReleases/showNews.cfm?newsId=6F1726CD-952D-6E23-9A79F5D44DBC2637

[rainfall]

Let 'em die already.

[Shades of Gray]

A guy I work with donates to WOLF, goes out to reservations and donates his time every fall, and he has a wolf dog as a pet. He says this is all political shenanigans to let hunters kill wolves. I think the guy is just a paranoid kook.

I will be surprised if the states manage it well, right off the bat. I expect there to be all sorts of issues before they get it right. The possibility of an emergency relisting doesn't seem unlikely.

[Roger Mexico]

Ummm, let me get this straight:

The feds are going to delist the wolf so that a couple of states can kill a bunch of them, right?

We're not talking about the species recovering to the point where it no longer needs protection; Bush just doesn't think they should be protected?

Shit, I wasn't really pissed about anything today until I read that.

[Delilah]

Ummm, let me get this straight:

The feds are going to delist the wolf so that a couple of states can kill a bunch of them, right?

We're not talking about the species recovering to the point where it no longer needs protection; Bush just doesn't think they should be protected?

Shit, I wasn't really pissed about anything today until I read that.

That's the way I read it, seems to be more about politics than protection.

[foodeater]

Never take wolves off the list! Let them kill everything they want. Humans have screwed up too much, blah blah


I just really like wolves.

[Shades of Gray]

The issue is that the recovery plan had a set number of wolves as a target for delisting. That goal has been met for years now, yet the wolf has been kept on the list. There is huge pressure to delist them, and there are no reasons to keep them on the list. They will have to delist them, and once the hunters kill way too many, they will need to be relisted and a new plan worked out. Unfortunately, that is the way the shit works.

[Roger Mexico]

Never take wolves off the list! Let them kill everything they want. Humans have screwed up too much, blah blah


I just really like wolves.

No one's talking about reducing the human population by 70% so ranchers can save a few dollars.

[Delilah]

No one's talking about reducing the human population by 70% so ranchers can save a few dollars.

Maybe they should, and maybe the list should start with some politicians......

From:
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/feb2008/2008-02-21-02.asp


"For the Northern Rockies, independent scientists say the recovery goal should be at least 2,500 to 5,000 wolves in at least three interconnected populations in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. They say that viable populations should also be established in Colorado, Utah, Oregon and Washington.

Ed Bangs, the head of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's wolf recovery project, admits he thinks that 300 wolves are not enough. In a "Science" magazine article on February 15 Bangs said, "I personally think it [the recovery goal] is too low." "


On that note, the wolf population in Minnesota (which has had the wolves listed as threatened rather than endangered) is more stable and viable because of the interconnected population in Canada.

[Lateralus]

Too soon.

I would also like to see the Short-Faced Bear resurrected, ala Jurassic Park.

[Roger Mexico]

From:
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/feb2008/2008-02-21-02.asp


"For the Northern Rockies, independent scientists say the recovery goal should be at least 2,500 to 5,000 wolves in at least three interconnected populations in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. They say that viable populations should also be established in Colorado, Utah, Oregon and Washington.

Ed Bangs, the head of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's wolf recovery project, admits he thinks that 300 wolves are not enough. In a "Science" magazine article on February 15 Bangs said, "I personally think it [the recovery goal] is too low." "


.


Three hundred? Three fucking hundred?

Uh, yeah, probably not quite enough.

[Limey]

All breeds of canine are decedents of just four female wolves.

I think we have enough copies and variants of the species DNA and have even mastered breeding them radically different like evolution on speed to bring them back if they all "died". It's sea life that is probably more important to sustained life on this rock.

[rainfall]

Guys, guys, can't we take care of the starving children in... Wherever?
Fuck the wolfes.

[Limey]

Guys, guys, can't we take care of the starving children in... Wherever?
Fuck the wolfes.

I think those are polar issues. The children were excess of the human race, whereas the Wolves were likely displaced short of extermination by humans.

Still, I'd fuck a wolf over a Malamute.

[rainfall]

I think those are polar issues. The children were excess of the human race, whereas the Wolves were likely displaced short of extermination by humans.



Wolfs didn't drop in numbers due to excess of hunting, did they?

[Limey]

Wolfs didn't drop in numbers due to excess of hunting, did they?

Wulfs hunted babbies.

[rainfall]

Wulfs hunted babbies.

Therefore, we as mankind will destroy them. In few thousand years our habitat, this entire planet, will be asphalt and metal. It will no longer look green from the space, but shiny and grey. Trillions of people will live in cramped spaces, assigned work based on their personalities and drugged up to be happy. The corpies don't realize this yet, but they will need sentient explorers to go on suicide missions, and lots of them. Cities will take up all the room, going both down and up. Perhaps air will be too depleted and polluted by that time to be breathed, and no human will step outside of the confines of technology. This will happen, it is happening, this is what the men with power want. You cannot stop this. Your wolfs and pandas are goners. It is only a matter of time, whether that is 50 years or 5000. Anything that does not generate profit will be terminated, including humans deemed useless, whether by personality or body. In future the animals you so deeply care for will become nothing more than a bunch of data on corporate harddrives.

Live and worry about nothing. Everything is advancing naturally. Unless you're built to rebel and whatnot, then by all means, fulfill your destiny.

[Delilah]

Three hundred? Three fucking hundred?

Uh, yeah, probably not quite enough.

One of the problems with 300 is that wolf packs have a very large range and travel in fairly small packs, also not all the wolves in the packs breed, it's predominantly the alpha male and female, so out of that 300 there may only be 30-50 breeding animals spread out over 1000's of miles, it would be like an INTP trying to find another INTP for christ's sake!

[Roger Mexico]

Wolfs didn't drop in numbers due to excess of hunting, did they?

I believe that's more or less exactly why their numbers dropped, actually.

[Delilah]

I guess it was just a matter of time (http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/apps/releases/view.cfm?NewsID=4325).

*wanders off muttering curses*

[Oso Mocoso]

*wanders off muttering curses*

OH HEY!!!! Wolf hunting season? Thanks for the link! I hear them's good eatin'!
And maybe I could use the hide to make myself a hat...

<loads gun>

[Delilah]

OH HEY!!!! Wolf hunting season? Thanks for the link! I hear them's good eatin'!
And maybe I could use the hide to make myself a hat...

<loads gun>

*loads bigger gun*

It's Oso hunting season in my neck of the woods.

[Oso Mocoso]

*loads bigger gun*

It's Oso hunting season in my neck of the woods.

Note to self: Don't go to the middle of fucking nowhere. There's a crazy woman with a gun who is looking for you.

Comforting note to self: She is far away. She probably doesn't know your real name, and she probably doesn't have a good idea of what you actually look like. She might not even actually own a gun.

Phew. For a fraction of a second there, I was slightly intimidated by your threat. Nah, I'll be happily shootin' me some wolves if I'm somewhere they're in season.

[Delilah]

Note to self: Don't go to the middle of fucking nowhere. There's a crazy woman with a gun who is looking for you.

Comforting note to self: She is far away. She probably doesn't know your real name, and she probably doesn't have a good idea of what you actually look like. She might not even actually own a gun.

Phew. For a fraction of a second there, I was slightly intimidated by your threat. Nah, I'll be happily shootin' me some wolves if I'm somewhere they're in season.

Yes, of course dear, I am perfectly harmless and very far away, no need to worry.

*slips Oso's photo and location into the breast pocket of flannel shirt with a sly grin while continuing to stroke gun*

[nozflubber]

that's cute and all, but, the wolves will do just fine

[Delilah]

What I find troubling is the speed at which they were delisted and then categorized as big game. Eagles (http://www.fws.gov/midwest/eagle/)were recovered and delisted yet afforded additional tracking and monitoring to help ensure their continued levels, yet wolves are listed as endangered one month and the next month they have a bounty on their head?

[Zero Angel]

*hides in fear*

[Oso Mocoso]

*hides in fear*

HOLY CRAP, IT'S COMING RIGHT FOR US!

<bang bang>

Gray wolf, get in my belly!

[Delilah]

HOLY CRAP, IT'S COMING RIGHT FOR US!

<bang bang>

Gray wolf, get in my belly!

As of now we can still hunt Polar bear Oso, so watch your back!

Hopefully not for long though. (http://alaska.fws.gov/fisheries/mmm/polarbear/issues.htm)

[Oso Mocoso]

As of now we can still hunt Polar bear Oso, so watch your back!

I don't think you can hunt Knut, though. That particular Eisbar is pretty safe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH0MTAdkisM

[Delilah]

I don't think you can hunt Knut, though. That particular Eisbar is pretty safe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH0MTAdkisM

Damn it! I can't watch you tube at work! :mad:

Of course Knut and any of his kind would be safe with me, YOU on the other hand, not so much. >:P

[Oso Mocoso]

Damn it! I can't watch you tube at work! :mad:


Watch it when you get home, it's my theme music!

Here', I'll karaoke it for you...

<sings>
Knut, der ist ein Kuschelb?r
Doch hat keine Mama mehr
Trotzdem ist er frech und froh
Und der Star im Zoo

Kleiner Racker ganz in wei?
Mit vier Pfoten kuschelweich
Alle hab?n den Knut so lieb
Sch?n, dass es dich gibt

Knut, Knut
Kleiner Eisb?r aus?m Zoo
Knut, Knut
Dir geht?s richtig gut

Knut, du bist ein Kuschelb?r
Du wirst immer putziger
Laufen kannst du auch schon gut
Weiter so, nur Mut

Nuckelfl?schchen in den Mund
Trinke fein, das ist gesund
Danach musst du schlafen gehen
Kleiner Knut, schlaf sch?n

Knut, Knut
Kleiner Eisb?r aus?m Zoo
Knut, Knut
Dir geht?s richtig gut

Knut, du s??er Kuschelb?r
Dich zu m?gen ist nicht schwer
Streichelt man dich auf dem Bauch
Dann freust du dich auch

Deine Z?hnchen sind noch klein
Kr?ftig bei?en, das muss sein
Dann wirst du bald gro? und stark
Ja, das ist doch klar
</sings>

[Anonymous]

I guess it was just a matter of time (http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/apps/releases/view.cfm?NewsID=4325).

*wanders off muttering curses*

Wait, what? We allowed their population to grow large enough only to start shooting them again?

Makes sense to me.

[Delilah]

Wait, what? We allowed their population to grow large enough only to start shooting them again?

Makes sense to me.

Of course silly! You don't think we would spend years protecting them to allow them to live did you?

[Oso Mocoso]

Of course silly! You don't think we would spend years protecting them to allow them to live did you?

Right! Just like we do with cows, pigs, and other tasty animals.

[Delilah]

Right! Just like we do with cows, pigs, and other tasty animals.

They aren't endangered ya goof! I live with 4 pigs right now!



mmmmmmmm.....bacon.........

[Crazy]

What I find troubling is the speed at which they were delisted and then categorized as big game. Eagles (http://www.fws.gov/midwest/eagle/)were recovered and delisted yet afforded additional tracking and monitoring to help ensure their continued levels, yet wolves are listed as endangered one month and the next month they have a bounty on their head?


Once a species is removed from Endangered Species Act protection, there are several safeguards to help ensure it continues to thrive, including a mandatory 5-year monitoring period. The Service also has the ability to immediately relist a species on an emergency basis, if monitoring or other data show that is necessary.
This should help anyway.

[colormegone]

The US Fish and Wildlife Service is corrupt and it's not solely the fault of the Bush administration. If "research" was tampered with during the past 8 years (yes it has been, look it up), what reason is there to believe that would never occur under a supposedly more environmentalist-friendly administration. Unless you're stupid enough to think that the environmentalist agenda is less bigoted and power-hungry than any other political interest group.

[Delilah]

Yay!

Judge restores wolf protection (http://www.jhguide.com/article.php?art_id=3326)

*In his ruling, Molloy said the federal government had not met its standard for wolf recovery, including interbreeding of wolves between the three states to ensure healthy genetics.

?Genetic exchange has not taken place,? Molloy wrote in the 40-page decision.

Molloy said hunting and state laws allowing the killing of wolves for livestock attacks would likely ?eliminate any chance for genetic exchange to occur.?*

[stopharian]

I have to admit to not being able to make a truly knowledgeable statement about whether or not there are enough wolves to take them off the list. It seems too soon, however I don't think its as extremely important as some wildlife management decisions. If it seems like the numbers aren't growing fast enough then make things more strict for a bit. The thing is, wolves are endangered in the Northern Rockies but they arent even close to being in danger of extinction. If this population gets wiped out go back and grab some more from Canada (60,000).

I dont think that we should be worried about cattle ranchers in Montana either. Screw them or put some sort of livestock compensation in place.

I just find wildlife conservation efforts to be so emotionally driven and erratic. Ok so you have wolves back in the Northern(US) Rockies. Why not reintroduce them in the Central Rockies? The Southern rockies, The South West? Why not reintroduce Grizzlies to the Central and Southern Rockies, and what about Lynx and Bison, Mooose Etc. And then you have people protecting the shit out of stuff which is overpopulated. Black bears are a total nuisance where I live and they are breeding like rats and expanding their territory every year but all we do is shoot em in the ass with beanbags and squirt pepper juice in their eyeball every once in a while. Lets put em in wolf suits and send em to Montana.

And while were at it.......I'm all for reintroducing the Indian to much of their native range. A few war parties swooping through and taking scalps might induce the neighbors to keep their fucking volume turned down a bit.

[Delilah]

Great Lakes Wolf returns to endangered list (http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-science/20080930/Gray.Wolf.Endangered/)


:happpy:

[LastRailway]

I realise this is an old thread, and you probably don't remember the answer, but, why the hell is the poll anonymous?
Of course, if it was public, this might influence the results, but, still...

[Delilah]

I realise this is an old thread, and you probably don't remember the answer, but, why the hell is the poll anonymous?
Of course, if it was public, this might influence the results, but, still...

Oh, I remember, it's because I am a retard and didn't check the box. :mellow:

[LastRailway]

Oh, I remember, it's because I am a retard and didn't check the box. :mellow:

Excellent memory! :cheers:

[Delilah]

Excellent memory! :cheers:

:grin:






I like beer.

[LastRailway]

I like beer.

Yeah, I think I've heard something about :grin:

(/derail)

[Delilah]

Yeah, I think I've heard something about :grin:

(/derail)

Huh. I can't imagine where.......

[foodeater]

Great Lakes Wolf returns to endangered list (http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-science/20080930/Gray.Wolf.Endangered/)


:happpy:
(something about something)

Great news, too :grin:

[Delilah]

Great news, too :grin:

Agreed!

I :wub: wolves.

[LastRailway]

BTW, I was just reading a book about grey wolves, the "Wolf Totem". It seems fairly interesting, maybe you'd like it.

[Delilah]

Ohhhbama. Glad I voted for you!

On Tuesday, within hours of Obama's inauguration, his administration froze last-minute Bush administration regulations before they could take effect.

Among them was an Interior Department proposal to remove gray wolves from Endangered Species protections in much of the northern Rocky Mountains,



:wub:

[CEOofRawness]

99% of all species on this planet have gone extinct.

Maybe we should stop meddling with nature.

[ghost]

The wolves should decide who gets to live or die.

[Wolfblood]

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2007-2008/billanalysis/Senate/htm/2007-SFA-1084-B.htm


Found this, is this the bill? Anyone have anything different? Seems pretty straight forward and very very stringent to me. The wolf must be turned over, dead or alive to authorities. The dog it was attacking must be presented for inspection, wounds must be in evidence.


Really? This is it? Doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

And only 300 wolves?

I count between 13515 and 11515 estimated.
http://www.fws.gov/Midwest/wolf/population/status-map.htm

With 200,000 (estimated) world wide.
http://www.defenders.org/wildlife_and_habitat/wildlife/wolf,_gray.php

Sure, that's not a lot But it's a touch more than 300.



But Deputy Interior Secretary Lynn Scarlett said Wednesday wolves in Wyoming will remain under federal jurisdiction because that state has not done enough to assure their survival.
http://www.nwcn.com/animals/news/stories/NW_011409ANB-idaho-wolves-ks.3d513af.html

Wait a min...
Is the Fed trying to take them off or not?
What they are proposing is that each State manage it's own wolf population. This isnt as dire as it is made out to be. The protection of the wolves is still priority, the fed just doesnt feel that the national government needs to handle it in all states anymore. See above; they are not allowing Wyoming to manage its own wolf population because the State hasn't done enough to ensure the wolves survival. Go Fed!


David Mech, a leading wolf expert and senior research scientist with the U.S. Geological Survey, supported the assertion that the wolf population had rebounded.


"I'm satisfied, and most wolf biologists I know are satisfied, that wolf populations in both regions have been biologically recovered for the last five years," Mech said.

http://neworleans.cox.net/cci/newsnational/national?_mode=view&_state=maximized&view=article&id=D95N9TT00&_action=validatearticle

Seems the wolf experts think this is ok.

So let me get this straight:
1. They want to protect domesticated animals by allowing people to kill the grey wolf in defense of those animals, however... proof must be in evidence.

2. The Fed wants to hand the power to manage things within some States back over the State itself. And, freed up federal funds can go to other projects? Why is this a bad thing?

3. Wyoming isn't making the grade, so the job they should be doing remains up to the National government to do? Hrmm... seems Wyoming should get its shit together. Why is not on criticizing Wyoming? Oh... Bush is a much more popular target.


And Obama... he did away with this? Unnecessarily keeping power at the national level? Our national tax dollars are going to something State funds should be covering? Yeah, my hero. :wub: Why not... The media can spin it right up and make him look like a saint. Good eye for public relations that man. :theclap:

Flame me all you want. I love wolves. I just wish people would stop reading every anti-Bush, pro-Dem rag out there and taking what it says as the gospel. How many more things are the average voter running around completely misinformed about? If anyone would have an interest in educating themselves, and thinking for themselves it would be the INTP, as far as I am concerned. Do I give to much credit?

[foodeater]

didn't read


http://www.softpicks.net/screenshots/7art-Angry-Wolves-ScreenSaver.jpg



AWWWWWWWWWWWWW

[Delilah]

And Obama... he did away with this? Unnecessarily keeping power at the national level? Our national tax dollars are going to something State funds should be covering? Yeah, my hero. :wub: Why not... The media can spin it right up and make him look like a saint. Good eye for public relations that man. :theclap:

Flame me all you want. I love wolves. I just wish people would stop reading every anti-Bush, pro-Dem rag out there and taking what it says as the gospel. How many more things are the average voter running around completely misinformed about? If anyone would have an interest in educating themselves, and thinking for themselves it would be the INTP, as far as I am concerned. Do I give to much credit?

This debate has been ongoing for some time.
What you, and many fail to understand is the solitary nature of the animals. Yes, they are pack animals, but there are few in a pack and they are seperated by great distances. For breeding and establishing of new, and genetically diverse packs the roaming ranges between packs has to kept open. Since that specific wolf population has a three state range, to give one state the rights to delist and hunt them, would close down a huge portion of their roaming range, negatively impacting the population as a whole.
The wolves in MN, WI and northern MI, have an added bonus of having their range extend into Canada, making it a much larger, more genetically diverse and more stable population.

1,500 wolves, with 100 breeding pairs, spread out over several thousand miles, in an area broken up by mountains (as in the case of the ones being discussed), is a far cry from the 4000+ wolves in my area.

Reading a few articles won't give you the whole picture, but a little common sense will help.

[Wolfblood]

This debate has been ongoing for some time.
What you, and many fail to understand is the solitary nature of the animals. Yes, they are pack animals, but there are few in a pack and they are seperated by great distances. For breeding and establishing of new, and genetically diverse packs the roaming ranges between packs has to kept open. Since that specific wolf population has a three state range, to give one state the rights to delist and hunt them, would close down a huge portion of their roaming range, negatively impacting the population as a whole.
The wolves in MN, WI and northern MI, have an added bonus of having their range extend into Canada, making it a much larger, more genetically diverse and more stable population.

1,500 wolves, with 100 breeding pairs, spread out over several thousand miles, in an area broken up by mountains (as in the case of the ones being discussed), is a far cry from the 4000+ wolves in my area.

Reading a few articles won't give you the whole picture, but a little common sense will help.

Size of a pack and breeding pairs has nothing to do with whether this should be a State or National consideration. That information has to do with a "Should wolves be protected or not?" or not. That was not the focus of my post. I never once said, or even implied wolves did not need, nor deserve protection.


And which state was being given the right to "delist and hunt" wolves?


I totally missed that and don't see it anywhere. I see Wyoming not being allowed to manage the wolf population in their state because they're getting it wrong, and the national government wanted to ensure wolves remain protected in that state. Did you miss that completely?


I don't mind a debate... love em. I also know a thing or two about wolves. My focus was on aspects of the law. If you wish to have a different discussion with me, that'd be fine. I can see this is an issue you have a vested interest in, and expansive knowledge of. But if you're going to completely ignore my post and its content, why bother quoting and replying to it? You don't need to put me on the "other team". I believe wolves should be protected. I think the policy that was in play was misunderstood, and misquoted. I saw nothing about it that said "wolves no longer need [any] protection" except what the media tried to spin. I don't think Obama did some wonderful thing, by squashing it. I can think that way, and still believe wolves need protection.