High School

[Solo]

What the fuck is wrong with the kids in America. I attend a public high school and I come home disheartned and disgusted everyday. The majority of the kids attending the school are idiots. This isn't my personal opinion either. They seem to have very low IQ's. The things they value are just so unimportant. A girl in my honors earth science class said she was better than her brother becasue she was more social. What type of shitty reasoning is that. I'm called stubborn by nearly every person I know becasue I don't change my mind enough. If they would come up with good arguments and support them with fact then I'll change my mind. Usually discussions involve society today. They just completely ignore all the bad aspects and go for the positives. I get called a downer because I point out what is really there. What world are these kids living in today?

Everyday I hear the same BS. I get called close-minded for my stubborness. I'm arrogant becasue I know how smart I am. I'm cold and unfeeling becasue I want to achieve my goals and will not let anyone stop me. Never once has anyone looked at things from my point of view but I'm expected to look at theirs?

Another thing that pisses me off is the way I'm treadted becasue I'm black. When I went to register for classes in my freshman year the counsler was suggesting all these PE classes when I specifically told her that isn't what I wanted. Teachers always ask me whether I plan on going to college. When I say yes they start suggesting community colleges. I'm like WTF man I want to go to the University of NC. Only after the teachers see my 4.25 GPA and my course schedule do they start to treat me with respect. When I start my new classes each semester I'm always one of two or three black people in my classes. I don't know what the black kids in my school are thinking but they need to get there shit together.

I have to put up with being made fun of by the black kids becasue I'm smart. The white kids make fun of me becasue I don't fit their preconcieved notions of how a black person should act. They say I'm not black enough and call me whitey. On a daily basis I hear this more times than I feel like counting.

I hate my classes. They are too simple. I wasn't allowed to take honors algebraII or chem becasue my geometry grade wasn't high enough. I couldn't take honors electives this year because the school feels that as sophmores we wouldn't be able to handle the demands of an honors class. The honors classes I'm in now are horrible. The only difference between honors and regular is the workload. I'm not learning anything extra. It seems that they let anyone take honors classes who can get a good grade. Intellignece doesn't count for much at my school. I'm really hoping the AP classes I take will be better than the honors classes I'm in now.

I'm sure since we are INTP's that many of you have had similar experiences(except for the race stuff) How did you guys deal with it?

[Eileen]

RAR!

I teach at a predominantly black high school and I think that those problems you mentioned re: race (and everything else) exist there, big time.



Edit: Just noticed that you're in my neck of the woods, kind of.
Edit again: Just noticed that you answered my original question.

[Eileen]

I'm going to dig up a link to an article someone posted on LJ one time about smart black boys and this idea that if you're smart, you're "acting white." I'm curious to see what you think about it.

[heeroyuy]

I keep breathing. It doesn't go away, AP classes teach to tests, but you can usually pick up good information along the way. College gets better though. All I can tell you is hold on heh.

[Division56]

I'm going to dig up a link to an article someone posted on LJ one time about smart black boys and this idea that if you're smart, you're "acting white." I'm curious to see what you think about it.

And this is funny, because the people who say it are most often white and not smart at all.

*wonders if it's weird that he does not consider himself white, culturally*

[coffeezombie]

Yeah, besides seeing racial discrimination here, I've also seen people discriminated against based upon what high school they go to. It seems like the kids in public urban schools are treated like they are not expected to go anywhere. The kids in public suburban schools are "tracked" at an early age based upon their perceived academic ability, so that honors student only take honors classes and don't associate with the "rabble." This is how my school was and I didn't even know most of the "average" students in my high school because I never had classes with them. And, of course, the kids in private schools are all expected to go to elite universities.

[songbird36]

I'm going to dig up a link to an article someone posted on LJ one time about smart black boys and this idea that if you're smart, you're "acting white." I'm curious to see what you think about it.

Well in a primary school context my two sons have certainly encountered this attitude. They go to a very multicultural primary school with around 40% Maori and Pacific Island students.

Both my sons are academically bright, and the older one has been called a "nerd" and a "geek" a number of times because he does well in class.

I would suggest that this "geek" labelling is not merely a race issue, it's also a cultural issue for "Boys" who are thought to be geeks if they take their school work seriously.

["InsertNameHere"]

I went to public schools all my life. Frankly, i think it depends on the school and where it is located. City schools are the worst schools or schools located next to low income houses. Many of the kids in my graduating class went off to prestigious colleges and university. I'm African American and I've never had any problem with "black" kids and i was always in Gifted and talented classes (which are higher than honors) and AP classes... then again maybe i didn't get made fun of because i was nonchalant with my intelligence and i was a major slacker

also there are many reasons why "black" american kids are having problems in school, but i wouldn't go into that right now

[Solo]

And this is funny, because the people who say it are most often white and not smart at all.

*wonders if it's weird that he does not consider himself white, culturally*

I guess realistically my cultural background would resemble that of a white person. I went to a Private christian school for K-3 so I mostly interacted with white people. I have more in common with the white students. I don't really have any black friends because I can't connect with them on any level.
I guess you could say I was always the token black guy. None of these things really mattered much until I got to high school. The division between races is just sad.

[Edit: Just addding on]

My school isn't located in a low income part of raliegh. It is a very nice school. It has good facilities. The teachers there are very good at what they do. The white students are the majority. I've already ruled out location as a reason for why the students behave and act the way they do. I have reasons for why the black students act the way they do but then I would be high-jacking my own thread.[end edit]

[Division56]

I guess realistically my cultural background would resemble that of a white person. I went to a Private christian school for K-3 so I mostly interacted with white people. I have more in common with the white students. I don't really have any black friends because I can't connect with them on any level.
I guess you could say I was always the token black guy. None of these things really mattered much until I got to high school. The division between races is just sad.

My background is the same (except more liberal schools). That does not, however, make me identify with these people who seem to think they have cornered the market on white. I am not one of them.

*eyes those people*

[songbird36]

I guess realistically my cultural background would resemble that of a white person. I went to a Private christian school for K-3 so I mostly interacted with white people. I have more in common with the white students. I don't really have any black friends because I can't connect with them on any level.
I guess you could say I was always the token black guy. None of these things really mattered much until I got to high school. The division between races is just sad.

That's very interesting. Do you feel a sense of cultural dislocation now? Or does the fact that you have no black friends not bother you?

I read a very interesting biography a while ago (which I now can't remember the name of) about a Jewish American woman married to a black pastor, and they had about 12 kids (including the author who wrote the book as a tribute to his amazing mother). One of the themes in the book was that in order to "assimilate" with her family and with the predominantly black neighbourhood they lived in, the mother more or less had to deny (or gloss over) her Jewish heritage, and she sort of pretended it didn't exist.

[Ka.avik]

What the fuck is wrong with the kids in America. Its called the public school system. It's primary purpose is actually to ensure a uniform culture, and ultimately has very little to do with learning


I'm sure since we are INTP's that many of you have had similar experiences(except for the race stuff) How did you guys deal with it? Nope, I'm white. Actually I'm 1/8th Russian and Alaskan and Swedish, with I don't know what (english/french in the mix, if I heard right) comprising the rest of it.

Yes, classmates at that age are stupid. In my case, my parents saw the problem, and pulled me out, and home-schooled me. I've never even set foot in a highschool, and only attended K-12 for a few years. Very poor years they were -- the principal postively hated me, for an unknown reason. As near as I could tell, he wanted me to be the school bully's toady, instead of standing up to him as I did.

*sigh*
College is totally different. Everybody who's there has made arrangements to be there because they want to learn. Well, in the case of community college, anyway...Not sure I would trust a real university not to have the same problem, simply because so many kids could be sent to the real college by their rich daddy who has such big plans for giving them a silver platter. But when I was in college (community college) I didn't see any of that. People were there because they could afford to be, and that leads to a totally different attitude about it all.

My advice? hang in there http://forums.intpcentral.com/images/smilies/ng_shock.gif It can't rain all the time

[Eileen]

The 'Acting White' Myth - Paul Tough (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/magazine/12ACTING.html?ex=1260594000&en=0adbddd7d0728853&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt)

Interesting article, though I haven't actually presented it to black kids (I'm caucasian; I try to be a 'culturally relevant teacher' but some subjects are hard to open up), so I don't know what they think about it. What I'm seeing in a lot of black boys is the attitude that school has nothing for them, so it's hard to say...

[Solo]

In response to Divi:
I don't identify with them becasue they are white. I identify with them becasue we share common interests and can relate to the experiences we've had.

In response to Songbird:
The fact that I have no black friends doesn't bother me but it seems to bother other people quite a bit. I don't view culture as "white culture' or "black culture" becasue I don't view people like that. I see it as our(my friends and I) culture that we have made our own. I do my best to not let race influence my thoughts or feelings.

[songbird36]

In response to Divi:
I don't identify with them becasue they are white. I identify with them becasue we share common interests and can relate to the experiences we've had.

In response to Songbird:
The fact that I have no black friends doesn't bother me but it seems to bother other people quite a bit. I don't view culture as "white culture' or "black culture" becasue I don't view people like that. I see it as our(my friends and I) culture that we have made our own. I do my best to not let race influence my thoughts or feelings.

Sorry to labour the point but, which "other" people does it bother? Your parents? Your black acquaintances who have black friends?

And by the way does it bother you to have us use the word "black" on this thread? We had a debate about this last night, which was inconclusive.

[Eileen]

Its called the public school system. It's primary purpose is actually to ensure a uniform culture, and ultimately has very little to do with learning


No. The main problem with America's youth is bad parenting.

The public school system has its problems, but I guarantee you, people who decide to teach are there because they want students to learn. Learning could happen better if the system was different, but there are plenty of good teachers in the system who are helping students learn even with its problems. The system needs a LOT of work, and in North Carolina, there will be some pretty radical changes in the next ten years (they're saying five, but I don't believe it) that may or may not help at all. As for ensuring a uniform culture, I agree that the system can function that way, but teachers vary widely in their acceptance and implementation of this.

[songbird36]

No. The main problem with America's youth is bad parenting.



Hear hear. I said this on your previous "school" thread Eileen!

[Solo]

Sorry to labour the point but, which "other" people does it bother? Your parents? Your black acquaintances who have black friends?

And by the way does it bother you to have us use the word "black" on this thread? We had a debate about this last night, which was inconclusive.

I don't mind the questions. No one has ever asked before. Its nice to hear the opinions of others on this isssue.

It does not bother my mother but my father thinks I don't have an appreciation of black culture. He feels I'm out of touch and that I need to have friends of all races. He always goes on about how in the real world I have to deal with all types of people and that I should be more open.

I don't mind saying black. I don't feel like I have to. I could care less about the political correctness of African-American. I don't get offened when I'm called black. I find it to be excepted by most people I'm come in contact with. Although that is probably just my generation. Most adults I talk to refer to me as African-American.


I agree with Eileen that she says there are good teachers. In my school I've never really come across a teacher who was incompotent in there subject. They are for the most part helpful and want their students to suceed.

Parenting is a big factor in how kids behave in school. Whenever a teacher threatens to call a black students parents more often than not the response is "go ahead my mom don't care." If the parents don't care there is a good chance the child won't either. the teachers try but they can't force students to care.

Edit: Thanks for the link to the article

[songbird36]

Yeah I'm afraid this is a big problem at my sons' school too.

There are parents who do the following:

* Don't give their kids breakfast in the morning and either send them to school hungry or give them money to buy junk food at the dairy;
* Don't do the kids' homework with them, so it isn't done;
* Don't shower or bath the kids often enough so they smell;
* Keep a child up very late with the adults (who are drinking or whatever), so the child comes to school abolsutely exhausted

["InsertNameHere"]

In response to Divi:
In response to Songbird:
The fact that I have no black friends doesn't bother me but it seems to bother other people quite a bit. I don't view culture as "white culture' or "black culture" becasue I don't view people like that. I see it as our(my friends and I) culture that we have made our own. I do my best to not let race influence my thoughts or feelings.

and yet you seemed to group the "blacks" into one culture. "I have to put up with being made fun of by the black kids becasue I'm smart...I don't know what the black kids in my school are thinking but they need to get there shit together." You want to go to the university of NC right? Maybe you need to get out the south cuz i'm sure that when you get to college that would pretty much be the same thing. I don't have a lot of trust in "blacks" going to school in the south...





I think one thing all ITNP must remember "The INTP is often satisfied simply by knowing that he could do something if he wished. This also leads to the danger of overestimating one's capabilities and losing a grip on reality. " http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html which can lead to arrogancy, thinking that we are better than we are. Maybe other people got that vibe from you... just a thought :sombrero:

[Eileen]

Parenting is a big factor in how kids behave in school. Whenever a teacher threatens to call a black students parents more often than not the response is "go ahead my mom don't care." If the parents don't care there is a good chance the child won't either. the teachers try but they can't force students to care.



Dingdingdingdingding!

A lot more could be accomplished at school if 2 things happened: 1. we got rid of the damn standardized tests or changed how we look at them or found another way to assess and 2. parents would instill in their children respect and the importance of learning.

If I didn't have to stop class every fifteen (or in some classes, five) minutes for some kid who thinks it's appropriate to disrupt class because he doesn't think what I'm teaching is worth anything, I could get a whole lot more done. If I had been like that in school, my parents would have kicked my ass. These kids roam free as the wind. If you drive around town late at night, there are kids just wandering around, no parents in sight. This is bad parenting, and it's resulting in a disruptive school atmosphere.

Part of this is that a lot of girls are getting pregnant and having babies in high school. These same girls were the daughters or teenage mothers. Of course a sixteen year old is completely inept at parenting. She shouldn't be expected to be a good parent. Unfortunately, they keep breeding.

[Solo]

and yet you seemed to group the "blacks" into one culture. "I have to put up with being made fun of by the black kids becasue I'm smart...I don't know what the black kids in my school are thinking but they need to get there shit together." You want to go to the university of NC right? Maybe you need to get out the south cuz i'm sure that when you get to college that would pretty much be the same thing. I don't have a lot of trust in blacks going to school in the south...


Yes I do realize that I just grouped every black person into one culture.

You do bring up the point that people tend to put the races into one culture. Just beacuse someone shares skin color with someone else doesn't mean they share anything else.

I don't plan on changing my goal of going to UNC. I really like the school and want to attend college their. Once I have decided for sure what to major in my choice may change.

I'm sure that at times I think I'm better than I really am. I try not do act like I'm better than others. My arrogance gives them no right to make be the brunt of their jokes. I do my best to treat people with respect. A lot of the kids in my school don't know the value of respect. That is one reason why I see myself as better.

[Eileen]

I don't have a lot of trust in "blacks" going to school in the south...



Why's that?

(Also, I'd be interested in your perspective on the article I posted a link to, also. I think I might pass that article on to one of the black English teachers to see what she thinks about it, because I neither know what I think about it nor think that I could really open up a discussion with students on the matter because I'm white.)

["InsertNameHere"]

Eileen, I agree! Standardized testing doesn't show a person intelligence...
The whole "Baby raising Bady" epidemic is destroying the american culture. Those young parents tend to be the ones that don't care about how well their kids do in school. They are either working all the time or out hanging with their friends, instead of talking and listening to their kids. It's sooo sad... I blame it on TV and modern day BET! We are being brain washed, damn it! Wake UP :zzz: :banghead:

[Solo]

It's sooo sad... I blame it on TV and modern day BET! We are being brain washed, damn it! Wake UP :zzz: :banghead:

I do think that the message that blacks are getting through music and television are not positive.

In responce to the article:
I don't agree with the findings of the study.While white students make fun of other white students it is because they are smart. When black students make fun of me it is beause I'm smart and black. I say this because I've never heard of black students making fun of smart white students. Hell the black students don't even seem to care about the white students.

[Chall T. Dow]

I agree with much that has been said on this thread. Having escaped the public school system recently I can say that for the most part the system is not the problem. The parents are a much bigger part of the problem than the system. Most of them simply don't care about how their child does and if the student does some wrong the parents will defend them. Oh, and southern universities aren't really that much different from those anywhere else from what I've seen; I'm actually attending UTK at the moment.

Chall T. Dow

["InsertNameHere"]

HAHA...don't mind me Eileen! I'm just crazy! I just don't like the south. The few times I visited there I just had a very paranoid feeling. As if someone was coming to get me or something. Plus racism (both sides) still is alive in the south, especially considering what he said about is school system. It seems very restricted.

Oh i agree with the article, you should share it with other teachers to see if they agree. The whole Bill Cosby thing needed to be said but he didn't say it to the right people at the right place. I thought it was funny considering that he made Fat Albert and that played into the sterotype of "black" kids in america...sounded a lil hypocritical to me

[file cabinet]

I think in certain parts of california they're making school attendance mandatory and are fining / prosecuting parents for those not following the rules[according to the article only one parent was actually sent to jail]. I would cite my source but I couldn't find the article online. of course that only helps truant students..

["InsertNameHere"]

I think in certain parts of california they're making school attendance mandatory and are fining / prosecuting parents for those not following the rules[according to the article only one parent was actually sent to jail]. I would cite my source but I couldn't find the article online. of course that only helps truant students..
i probably wouldn't like that since i skipped a lot in my senior year...hehe. don't tell anyone but it would force parents to care about their kids whereabouts.

[Solo]

I think in certain parts of california they're making school attendance mandatory and are fining / prosecuting parents for those not following the rules[according to the article only one parent was actually sent to jail]. I would cite my source but I couldn't find the article online. of course that only helps truant students..

That seems kind of extreme but I guess you have to do whatever it takes by any means necessary.

[Nighthawk]

No. The main problem with America's youth is bad parenting.
This is an inevitable consequence of the American legal system, in which children can turn in their parents for "abuse" whenever the parents try to discipline them. Many parents have just given up and are waiting for the kids to move out.

[Nighthawk]

Hang in there Solo ... it will get better over time. My high school experience was like being in general prison population ... mixed in with all kinds of low-lifes and idiots. It became a bit better junior year, after some of the really bad ones dropped out. College life was much better, as there was a reasonable level of intelligence among the student body. Not everybody could join. Also, more of the students actually wanted to be there. The work place is like that too, at least in my experience. There is a minimum intelligence and socialization level that is needed to get hired and be kept as an employee. The sociopaths are no longer there.

[Ka.avik]

This is an inevitable consequence of the American legal system [...] Many parents have just given up and are waiting for the kids to move out.
OK, but I still mistrust the school system
http://www.spacehijackers.co.uk/images/projects/toilet/gallery/conform.jpg

and of course:
http://uwf.edu/svodanov/cartoon-conform.jpg

[Nighthawk]

I'm wondering if the conformity is a Guardian thing. I read somewhere that many elementary and high school teachers are Guardians. They seem to value cooperation, conformity and "team" more than the other types.

[Solo]

Hang in there Solo ... it will get better over time. My high school experience was like being in general prison population ... mixed in with all kinds of low-lifes and idiots. It became a bit better junior year, after some of the really bad ones dropped out. College life was much better, as there was a reasonable level of intelligence among the student body. Not everybody could join. Also, more of the students actually wanted to be there. The work place is like that too, at least in my experience. There is a minimum intelligence and socialization level that is needed to get hired and be kept as an employee. The sociopaths are no longer there.

I can't wait until college. The people there will want to be there and the eviornment should be better.

I don't know too much about teachers and personality types but my school definitly stresses teamwork. We're always getting into groups and are encouraged to work with partner when we do classwork. The team mentality get old quick when you gotta put up with it everyday.

[flan2dave]

Dingdingdingdingding!

A lot more could be accomplished at school if 2 things happened: 1. we got rid of the damn standardized tests or changed how we look at them or found another way to assess and 2. parents would instill in their children respect and the importance of learning.

If I didn't have to stop class every fifteen (or in some classes, five) minutes for some kid who thinks it's appropriate to disrupt class because he doesn't think what I'm teaching is worth anything, I could get a whole lot more done. If I had been like that in school, my parents would have kicked my ass. These kids roam free as the wind. If you drive around town late at night, there are kids just wandering around, no parents in sight. This is bad parenting, and it's resulting in a disruptive school atmosphere.

I think another possible issue that arises from this is that those who are inclined to behave in a civil manner start to get used to this sort of setting. They're liable to take education less seriously, slothing off because of the lower standards. They do enough to get the grade they want (easy enough because they're bright) and not concern themselves much about the improvement of their abilities and intellectual capacity. They can recede into the background and not really challenge themselves.

Once they get to the real courses due to their good grades, the sudden shift from frivolous to serious maybe intimidating, because their strategy at this point has been specifically tailored for the frivolous. They're not used to the close scrutinization now possible in a productive atmosphere, and may fear being "found out" as just another lazy, un-creative student.

This is similar to my experiences, I still get uneasy when a teacher notices me and starts to have high expectations, or puts in a sincere effort to directly support my learning (instead of just grading papers behind the scenes). Preferring to be invisilbe by personality compounds the problem.

Sometimes I think the teachers can be more "tough," because the first impression they give can leave them vulnerable to a year of misery getting their class under control. Like pretend its an uber serious, super challenging, university level class to begin with, but make the assignments unique not so much as they are dificult, and be sure to have a sense of humor and playful attitude soon after to calm their nerves and get things back to a relaxed atmosphere once things get under way. Even tease them about being too quiet. Short circuit any of their arguments like "this is not an advanced class, so why should it be challenging?" by addressing it before the question even forms in their minds. I don't know if any teacher can pull it off...some are just invariably too kind natured, students can easily tell if you're faking it.

With your situation Solo, the problems seem self-propagating and inescapable until you literally do escape by going to college. How does a school stop racist attitudes the students and parents bring in themselves? It's funny (I mean cynical funny) they call you whitey, like they can't ultimately accept that a black person can be intelligent. I probably have a subconcious bias myself due to media, my racist dad, and the PCness that reinforces the differences and problems, so it's not just the outspoken ones either that contribute to the overall problem. Those in lower classes tend to be worse, since they try to beat back anybody close to them on the social ladder (those of different color being easy targets to prey on), even though you might think being outcasts of society themselves would inspire some sympathy. Watching a friend of mine grow up, I noticed how a the lower class mentality affected his attitudes. Those in crappy jobs deserve it. Women are dumb bitches. Calling blacks and others derogatory names. Observing him, it's like he doesn't even have concious awareness of his irrational, self-defeating attitudes. An otherwise good person is being hijacked by fear. It's sad. And this is a large chunck of the public school's population (and many much worse than him). What can anybody possibly do, except pray that they don't breed (of course, they tend to breed more).

[Eileen]

In responce to the article:
I don't agree with the findings of the study.While white students make fun of other white students it is because they are smart. When black students make fun of me it is beause I'm smart and black. I say this because I've never heard of black students making fun of smart white students. Hell the black students don't even seem to care about the white students.

This is pretty much what I've seen too, but this is only my first year. Thanks for your perspective.

[Eileen]

I'm wondering if the conformity is a Guardian thing. I read somewhere that many elementary and high school teachers are Guardians. They seem to value cooperation, conformity and "team" more than the other types.

I've tentatively typed almost everyone in my department, and two of them out of eleven are definitely SJs. One SUCKS SO MUCH and one is great. One other might be an SJ, but I don't think so. Whatever she is, she's introverted. The rest in my department are all NJs or NPs, most definitely. But that's in an English department. I can't really speak for the other departments. I am pretty sure that none of the people I really like at school (which aren't numerous, but I'm not very apt to make friends) are SJ. I see what you're saying, Nighthawk, but I just don't know if it's true. The "teacher" personality is supposed to be ENFJ, I believe.

There is one person in my department who I'd say is really bent on making kids conform, but I don't think she's the norm. She just has no desire to be near anybody different than her. She's the SJ that gives SJs a bad name.

In general, teachers are a really idealistic bunch and see possibilities, which is a more N tendency than S.

I sort of think that administrators might be more apt to be SJ than teachers.

[Eileen]

OK, but I still mistrust the school system



Everyone should mistrust the school system and criticize it in order to improve it. But if we don't offer a free basic education to all American children, then we're going to have an even bigger illiterate population. Who will teach MY students to read and write, the most essential skills they can possess in this country? Their parents? Try again. NOBODY AT ALL. There are already kids slipping through those proverbial cracks, but to get rid of public education is to dump them into a huge abyss.

Any replacement educational system is going to have the same problems that you see already in this one. The press for conformity is a societal problem, and sometimes schools are used to make everybody the same. However, there are many, many teachers and other school personnel who believe that education can be liberative, a "practice of freedom," as bell hooks says. But if parents don't value it, children won't value it, and they'll turn their noses up at the opportunity to experience liberation through education.

[floyd]

do some reading on research of educational intervention programs, they don't work in the long term. gene therapy and/or some type of fitness/nutrition system and/or some type of drug is the only thing i see as ever being able to have the potential to raise intelligence for blacks or whites (above current evolutionary momentum). the idea that better external systems can fix things has thus far been disproven by the research. people's internal genetic wiring is the biggest determiner of how they end up. it's why modern goverments don't succeed in primitive communities.

i think people should be required to have a certain level of reading and math aptitude (to get government benefits). beyond that education needs to be more customizable and optional.

[Nighthawk]

I've tentatively typed almost everyone in my department, and two of them out of eleven are definitely SJs. One SUCKS SO MUCH and one is great. One other might be an SJ, but I don't think so. Whatever she is, she's introverted. The rest in my department are all NJs or NPs, most definitely. But that's in an English department. I can't really speak for the other departments. I am pretty sure that none of the people I really like at school (which aren't numerous, but I'm not very apt to make friends) are SJ. I see what you're saying, Nighthawk, but I just don't know if it's true. The "teacher" personality is supposed to be ENFJ, I believe.

There is one person in my department who I'd say is really bent on making kids conform, but I don't think she's the norm. She just has no desire to be near anybody different than her. She's the SJ that gives SJs a bad name.

In general, teachers are a really idealistic bunch and see possibilities, which is a more N tendency than S.

I sort of think that administrators might be more apt to be SJ than teachers.
I see your point. Perhaps it is the early elementary years to which the SJ's gravitate ... where it is more about learning to follow rules than it is about pure learning.

[Eileen]

i think people should be required to have a certain level of reading and math aptitude (to get government benefits). beyond that education needs to be more customizable and optional.

I do agree, actually. NC is trying to head in a direction that is more geared towards options for students, though the proposals I have heard have plenty of problems (not least of which, the damn tests will still be in place). They switched over to four by four blocks maybe a decade ago and that was to give students more options, but now they've just raised graduation requirements so that students have fewer options. It's a rough deal for the dissatisfied student.

[Eileen]

I see your point. Perhaps it is the early elementary years to which the SJ's gravitate ... where it is more about learning to follow rules than it is about pure learning.

I think that's probably true.

[songbird36]

Yes I do realize that I just grouped every black person into one culture.

You do bring up the point that people tend to put the races into one culture. Just beacuse someone shares skin color with someone else doesn't mean they share anything else.

I don't plan on changing my goal of going to UNC. I really like the school and want to attend college their. Once I have decided for sure what to major in my choice may change.

I'm sure that at times I think I'm better than I really am. I try not do act like I'm better than others. My arrogance gives them no right to make be the brunt of their jokes. I do my best to treat people with respect. A lot of the kids in my school don't know the value of respect. That is one reason why I see myself as better.

You seem so young. I haven't read your Bio, are you?

[Solo]

You seem so young. I haven't read your Bio, are you?

I'm only 15.

[songbird36]

Well I'm very impressed then

[Solo]

Thank you very much.

[Eileen]

Solo, you're the kind of kid I enjoy teaching immensely. You are not the kid who needs me [generic teacher] the most because you will learn on your own just fine, but rest assured, you are appreciated. Hang tight, and try to find something to enjoy at school--a club, maybe? If nothing suits you, see about starting up something that will.

Do you all have IB where you are?

[songbird36]

I think we're turning this into a J thread we had better get a little more Jesuitical...

[Solo]

Solo, you're the kind of kid I enjoy teaching immensely. You are not the kid who needs me [generic teacher] the most because you will learn on your own just fine, but rest assured, you are appreciated. Hang tight, and try to find something to enjoy at school--a club, maybe? If nothing suits you, see about starting up something that will.

Do you all have IB where you are?

Right now I'm in chess club and I'm on the track team. It is the classes I take that make school boring. IB isn't offered at my school. If I remember correctly only the magnet schools in my area offer those classes.

*goes to webster.com to look up jesuitical*

I'll have you know I'm only 54% P :D

[songbird36]

I think you're trying to impress us.

Women can't play Chess, didn't you know?

[Eileen]

It is the classes I take that make school boring.


Understood. Sometimes I feel really sorry for my smart and studious kids because they have to endure me explaining a concept in about seventeen billion different ways, partly because not everyone is on the same level, and partly because there are always little bastards talking when I explain it the first time.

Guess you're gonna have to kick a lot of ass in guidance so you can take better classes.

[Solo]

Understood. Sometimes I feel really sorry for my smart and studious kids because they have to endure me explaining a concept in about seventeen billion different ways, partly because not everyone is on the same level, and partly because there are always little bastards talking when I explain it the first time.

Guess you're gonna have to kick a lot of ass in guidance so you can take better classes.

There is nothing worse than having to have simple concepts explained over and over and over. Chemistry is like that everyday. I've requested to change my classes but they wont let me. The school treats us like we are all of equal intelligence and thinks we all have something to contribute.


And I might have been trying to impress you guys a little.

[jimkopelli]

I think you're trying to impress us.

Women can't play Chess, didn't you know?
They've got fingers, haven't they? Sure did last time I checked...

["InsertNameHere"]

I'm the chess master, but for reason i never realize when i win. Someone always has to tell me... i guess that defeats the purpose.hehe

[Miss Anthropic]

Solo, highschool sucks no matter what. I can't speak for anybody of another ethnicity because I'm white like the rest....I do have a niece and nephew who are Korean (they are both in college now) and they suffered the same trials and tribulations in highschool. I think the stereotypes they encountered involved automatic expectations of high achievement...maybe the opposite of what you encounter. Some of what they felt, however (or what I could surmise they felt from conversations I had with them) was pretty normal highschool stuff that many of us suffer(ed) from, but they sometimes attributed it to race when others (white kids) received the same sort of treatment but could realize it was just stuff that happened that caused normal highschool not-fitting in feelings. Even if you do encounter opposition or low expectations you will be better off ignoring it or not assuming it is because you are black. I think acceptance of that is equivalent to giving in. I hope I'm making some sense. I am not trying to minimize what you are going through, but I am trying to let you know that most, if not all, of us can empathize with your feelings and experience because the similarities of all of us (INTPs) are greater than our differences. When my boyfriend was in highschool he was kept out of an advanced science class because his handwriting was atrocious (and still is) his teacher made a very wrong assumption based on one aspect of his work. He is quite brilliant and won math contests all through highschool and college and was able to tutor students during graduate school in subjects he never studied. In my opinion you should take stock of your own value and let the whole color ethnic thing go by realizing that many kids of different backgrounds share the same frustrations you are facing. I've read a lot of your posts and threads you have started and you are so real and perceptive and beyond your years and with your intelligence you will undoubtedly succeed in whatever you decide to do. Have you read Baruch Obama's book? Now he would be an excellent role-model for you. I think that man is incredible and will achieve great things in this country. The best thing you can do is accept your insides and realize that how you carry yourself will be how others treat you. (Maybe not until adulthood and of course you will encounter the average ignoramous, but let it slide) Something that is interesting in this country, Africans who have emigrated here are beginning to surpass African Americans in success in education and business. That is unfortunate, but some of it HAS to do with the attitude of "the man's keeping me down because I'm black" attitude that many blacks have adopted as their mantra. In my opinion that is indicative of excuses for not acheiving. Anything is possible, because there are always examples of people achieving in life against the odds, and on the other side of the spectrum are the people who have every advantage and they are still miserable failures in life. From what you've shared on this site, you are an awesome person and I always enjoy reading your perspectives!

["InsertNameHere"]

Miss Anthropic: You hit the nail on the head!

[Miss Anthropic]

Wow! I LIKE it when someone agrees with me!

[Miss Anthropic]

P.S. Solo, you have the absolute best avatar!! I just love GIR.

[Solo]

Something that is interesting in this country, Africans who have emigrated here are beginning to surpass African Americans in success in education and business. That is unfortunate, but some of it HAS to do with the attitude of "the man's keeping me down because I'm black" attitude that many blacks have adopted as their mantra. In my opinion that is indicative of excuses for not acheiving. Anything is possible, because there are always examples of people achieving in life against the odds, and on the other side of the spectrum are the people who have every advantage and they are still miserable failures in life. From what you've shared on this site, you are an awesome person and I always enjoy reading your perspectives!

My father has that attitude about "the white man." I get so sick of hearing about how white people get this and that while he gets nothing. A lot of black people want to complain but do nothing to change their situation. Instead of trying to make things equal(if that is possible) a lot of members in the black community except that it isn't. They try to use inequality as an excuse for everything.

I do my best not to focus on race. At times I'm forced to because other people are. I can't ignore something that affects how some people treat me can I?

I'm very glad that my posts are interesting to read. I didn't know my threads were even remebered.

Edit:I LOVE my avatar Gir really is so cool. It is just so mesmerizing

[SensEye]

When black students make fun of me it is beause I'm smart and black. Don't sweat it Solo. Fast forward 10 years or so from now. When you pass a couple of these guys on the way down from your office they won't be making fun of you then. Neither the guy in the rent-a-cop outfit not the one pushing the mop.

[ohnoaninfp]

I hated highschool. I agree most of the people were shallow and superficial. I went to highschool where my mom taught L atin and German. The dumbass admonistration got rid of the German program. My mom then decided to teach world history. They gave her the history classes and then took them away from her. My mother got cancer in 97. She went to teach everyday with the chemo poisining her body. No matter how much pain or how uncomfortable she was, she went an did her job. She loved to teach, it kept her going. They went to her in the hospital one day and basically fired her. Now how Christian is that? The administration was so fucking fake. they preach about being good to each other and then they go and do that to my mom! My mom then had nothing really to get up for. She passed away October of 2000. I have no loyalty to that school. I do have friends from there, but I loathe and detest the administration that was there when my mom worked there. I have aways wanted to be in her German or Latin class, now I will never get to.

[Miss Anthropic]

My father has that attitude about "the white man." I get so sick of hearing about how white people get this and that while he gets nothing. A lot of black people want to complain but do nothing to change their situation. Instead of trying to make things equal(if that is possible) a lot of members in the black community except that it isn't. They try to use inequality as an excuse for everything.

I do my best not to focus on race. At times I'm forced to because other people are. I can't ignore something that affects how some people treat me can I?

I'm very glad that my posts are interesting to read. I didn't know my threads were even remebered.

Edit:I LOVE my avatar Gir really is so cool. It is just so mesmerizing
I know you can't totally ignore it, but you don't have to allow it to handicap you. I can tell that you aren't. If you are where you are in your emotional and intellectual development at 15 you will be able to set the world on fire in a number of years. Maybe it will be in a low key way (INTP mantra!) but you are so far ahead of your peers, that is your biggest problem. Do you know who Baruch Obama is? I really think you would enjoy his story. I haven't actually read his book, but have read interviews on him.

[Solo]

Obama is the senator from ILL. I was very happy when he won. I'll definely look up the biography.

[Hamro]

yup. people im my school are really lame and stupid. when i was about 15 we had an assignment in a class to pick 5 countries and try to pick the ones with the most valuable natural resources, and some of them picked countries like cyprus(wtf i thought there) and another guy only picked 5 cities. i could not honestly believe how stupid their reasoning was.

now i am 17 and attend to a music college. lot of people have good grades here, they think they are smart and they are always asked for after "what does this mean, why is that" but the thing is grades are NOT intelligence and smartness, im probably up at the top of the IQ measuring in my class, with an IQ of bout 134, my logical thinking is WAY more evolved then theirs. theyre idiots. but when i come home i can make fond of them with my family(which are all NTP btw)

[INTerloPer]

I was identified as gifted (IQ 136) in grade 4 and offered the chance to attend a segregated "gifted program". what the fuck were they thinking? by being put into these seperated classes, which had less than 15 students, my interpersonal skills were essentially non-existent. For 4 years I never made one new friend heard one new opinion, and then i was suddenly dumped into mainstream high-school where i discovered that the general population resented what they percieved as an elitist attitude. i have real beef with the fact that my school board doesn't offer gifted classes right thru high-school, too, because once i hit grade 9 i immediately started skipping class and doing drugs, because everything that was being taught, I had already learned. The problems started once they started teaching me new material (midway thru grade 10), but my study habits (or lack thereof) were already established. i'm currently going to an adult-ed program which is completely lacking in structure (no deadlines, no pressure, no classroom settings) and wondering why the hell "normal" high-schools still exist. who are these sheep that benefit from such rigidity?

[Nighthawk]

who are these sheep that benefit from such rigidity?They are called Guardians ;-)

[Shai Gar]

i love the revert to typsim insults that go on here. it rocks

[Hamro]

INTerloper, im just curious how old were you in grade 4?

i both hate and love being smarter then my class, its good to understand everything right away, the concepts. but the other people is killing my time, and its getting very frustrating lately. eventually i will throw a tantrum.

like in my english class. i scored 99 out of 100 on irregular verbs in english when i was 10. i think thats quite a big achievement, or i think so? with swedish being my mother tounge. my english skills and logicl thinking when i was 10 was about where the people in my class is at the moment :rant: and in philosophy class everybody is trying to be really deep coming up with ideas and concepts i thought about, dropped and threw away maybe 5 years ago. i just sit and think (holy shit man you are so deep! nearly as deep as your pretentiousness shines through and blinds you from seeing your own stupidity. yeah.)

[INTerloPer]

I would've been 9 or 10 in gr 4. there are province-wide tests (otis lennon, etc) administered in grade 4 to identify students (gifted, special needs, etc.). Believe me when I say I know how frustrating intelligence can be, especially when surrounded by the huddled masses. My only suggestion is that you talk to your teachers and let them know what you're feeling. They will likely be impressed if you take the initiative to ask to work ahead in the course. If they are non co-operative, GO ABOVE THEIR HEADS! Talk to your school administrators if need be. Also check to see if your school offers fast-track or gifted classes.

[Warrior413]

Ugh, you just described my day. I deal with it by completely shutting everyone off from me, and being a complete loner. The people in my advanced classes are mostly elitist snobs fresh out of the suburbs who have been together since pre-school and there's no one in the regular classes that could even begin to understand me.

On a side note, I'm half-Hispanic, half-Anglo, and identify with neither.

[Solo]

I would've been 9 or 10 in gr 4. there are province-wide tests (otis lennon, etc) administered in grade 4 to identify students (gifted, special needs, etc.). Believe me when I say I know how frustrating intelligence can be, especially when surrounded by the huddled masses. My only suggestion is that you talk to your teachers and let them know what you're feeling. They will likely be impressed if you take the initiative to ask to work ahead in the course. If they are non co-operative, GO ABOVE THEIR HEADS! Talk to your school administrators if need be. Also check to see if your school offers fast-track or gifted classes.

I never thought about talking to my teachers about working ahead. I always assumed they wouldn't understand my requests or ignore them. I've never heard any talk of gifted classes in my school. I'll inquire about it tomorrow.

["InsertNameHere"]

I would have hated being in a gifted-program that wasn't in my school. The people in my classes were snobs. Imagine a whole school of over privileged (BMW) snobs!*shudders* The horror!


*HAHA... high school was pretty funny when i look back at it! I drove the teachers crazy!
My plan for getting Skipped! :that didn't work.
There were kids who received straight A+ in their classes but the school wouldn't skip them. So i dicided to play with the system a little bit
I got kicked out the gifted program, Twice, for not doing any of my work (didn't feel the need, it was mainly busy work. keep us busy so we don't notice that we aren't learning shit). they couldn't put me in honors because i was too smart for it! I did all my work.(plus they were afraid that i would get depressed. I wonder where they got that idea from :whistle: )Unfortunately, they put me back in gifted classes. WHAT DOES A GIRL HAVE TO DO TO GET SKIPPED A GRADE OR TWO, DAMNIT! I know a lot of stupid people in NY who get skipped all the time! Why not in MD? damn state school system...

(then again it could have been because of my poor grammer. NAHHH, I always fixed it when i wrote a paper)

[spirilis]

HS is rarely fun, especially for some of us...
I went to a school whose total enrollment was about 2600 students during my senior year. Loner is a correct term--Minimalistic survivor is more like it. Introversion was rampant during HS for me. Actually I was rarely picked on, but that wasn't it--I didn't click with 98% of the people there, and the few I did were all my friends in one way or another, but I dunno.

The grand thought of it all is that this is somehow tied in with Darwin's theory of natural selection, maybe applying itself to overpopulation as a whole.

[INTerloPer]

Believe it or not, although we were segregated, we were not a bunch of rich white suburban kids. The city I live in is one of the top 10 richest cities in canada, yet in my small class of brainers more than half were from low-income families. Our program was based solely on test results - not race or religion or wealth.

[Hamro]

the teachers just tells me that i have to hand in the assignments to show that i actually am good. but that is exactly what i dont want to do. i dont want to waste my time on easy assignments. now i cant bow down to them. i cant let them win :mad: my english teacher wont let me take the more advanced tests

[Miss Anthropic]

I never thought about talking to my teachers about working ahead. I always assumed they wouldn't understand my requests or ignore them. I've never heard any talk of gifted classes in my school. I'll inquire about it tomorrow.

My daughter (8th grade) was in regular classes and hated them because of all the bullshit behavior problems that kids have. She requested (I had to fill out paperwork so it looked like I requested it) that she take the TAG test to be placed out of regular classes. She needed to score 97 and only got a 96 or something like that and they stuck her back in regular classes. She was crushed. And really ticked off. Finally she couldn't stand it and she talked to the principal. They put her in the TAG classes. I think they were leery of pushy parents--so the fact that she talked to the principal and told her that she really wanted to be in the advanced class made all the difference. Teachers and school counselors really like to work with kids who are motivated...if you let them know what you need they are usually pretty helpful (because its rare!) They are often so overwhelmed with trying to tame the behavior problems they don't notice or do much with the good motivated kid because he's not a problem. Solo, make yourself known!

[INTerloPer]

As I mentioned before, don't be afraid to go above your teacher's head. Or, have your parents do so. Or, if you would rather keep things on a smaller scale, try doing exaclt what your teacher suggests. Work your ass off on those easy assignments and try to bury him or her beneath a mountain of submissions. Eventually your teacher will become so frustrated at the thought of having to mark ANOTHER one of your assignments, they will be much more receptive to placing you in an advanced program.

[Arioch]

Hmm.. thank God I rarely have to deal with racist bullshit here.
But then again people here rarely care one way or another if your black or not.
Just if your Islamic or Middle Eastern.

I'm in college now and I sometimes question my classmates intelligence. Not to their face (which is rude) but still I sometimes have to wonder about the level of education. I went to college to improve my study/work habits but since I rarely have to actually read any of the material to pass the exams or to participate in class my brains just rotting. Still it's not too bad, just not meant for a INTP.

I actually had a funny moment in class today. We were discussing something or other (I think how to raise people to accept responsibility or something like that) in class and after a while I just observed what everyone was saying. And I suddenly thought:
"Oh my God, I'm a genius. I understand people, the world and life in general better then any of the people here, even the teacher..... how depressing"

Now, this was probably more a moment of hubris then anything else but it was quite depressing to think of myself as the most intelligent person there. Because if I'm considered gifted and wise, then no wonder the world is so f***** up.

[Hamro]

yup its nice to quitly laugh at the others ignorance and intelligence, when i was 15 we had to guess on a bunch of words and which language they originated from. one girl thought american was an own launguage

[ohnoaninfp]

the teachers just tells me that i have to hand in the assignments to show that i actually am good. but that is exactly what i dont want to do. i dont want to waste my time on easy assignments. now i cant bow down to them. i cant let them win :mad: my english teacher wont let me take the more advanced tests
That sucks! Curse her.

[YardGnome]

High school is bullshit, it's just a big fucking popularity contest, full of people who don't belong there in the first place. Wait until you get to college and everything will change...

[Chall T. Dow]

I never really felt that way during highschool. I think being in the band probably helped. Sure the whole thing is a big popularity contest, but who cares. I just let them have their fun and sat back, laughed and enjoyed the show. I never really got that bored in my classes either, but I'll admit my teachers were pretty good even if the school itself sucked. The times I would get bored, I always just pulled out a book and started reading. The teachers didn't usually mind after the firdt time or two since I could follow whatever they were doing at the same time and I wasn't bothering the rest of the class. Also, the administration was good about actually listening to the students if they had problems. Band though was what made me enjoy highschool though, and besides a few other friend, it is the only thing I miss.

Chall T. Dow

[ohnoaninfp]

I am tired of people, nothing but shallow, selfish backstabbers. God I wish I could rid my self of my animosity.

[Solo]

My daughter (8th grade) was in regular classes and hated them because of all the bullshit behavior problems that kids have. She requested (I had to fill out paperwork so it looked like I requested it) that she take the TAG test to be placed out of regular classes. She needed to score 97 and only got a 96 or something like that and they stuck her back in regular classes. She was crushed. And really ticked off. Finally she couldn't stand it and she talked to the principal. They put her in the TAG classes. I think they were leery of pushy parents--so the fact that she talked to the principal and told her that she really wanted to be in the advanced class made all the difference. Teachers and school counselors really like to work with kids who are motivated...if you let them know what you need they are usually pretty helpful (because its rare!) They are often so overwhelmed with trying to tame the behavior problems they don't notice or do much with the good motivated kid because he's not a problem. Solo, make yourself known!

We are going to be registering for classes between starting on the 7th and ending the 15th. I have gone to my teachers to ask what I had been recommended for. I have a good idea of what I'll be taking next year. I can take any AP class I want. Actually I can choose any class I want. We don't have AG classes at my school. I would have to apply to a magnet or charter school if I wanted to take those.

[Eileen]

We are going to be registering for classes between starting on the 7th and ending the 15th. I have gone to my teachers to ask what I had been recommended for. I have a good idea of what I'll be taking next year. I can take any AP class I want. Actually I can choose any class I want. We don't have AG classes at my school. I would have to apply to a magnet or charter school if I wanted to take those.

I thought AG was through middle school. After that, it's honors and AP, I think.

[Solo]

I thought AG was through middle school. After that, it's honors and AP, I think.

Sorry I used the wrong wording. I didn't mean the AG that middle school kids have. I meant schools geared toward students that have tested very well and are exceptional for there age.

[gahjr2000]

Wow, I can contribute.

I did not grow up in the South, I grew up in the SF Bay Area, an more multicultural area than most. So I can't really relate to the racial aspect but I can relate to the "Acting White = Caring about your schoolwork".

What this really boils down to is one of black people's dirty little secrets, and that is most black people define their sense of self-worth based on their relative position to white people.

*"I'm smart and went to college so I'm better than you low class Negros. I can compete with white folks."

*You think you're so smart, you're trying to act like white folks. If you were REALLY black you wouldn't try to match up with white folks and just hang out on the corner with us."

The question of "What does it mean to be black?" was one I couldn't answer until my last year in college. The answer is that THERE IS NO ANSWER. One lesson from history (that's what I got my degree in) that will stay with me forever is the City of Chicago in the early 20's. Before World War I the black population in Chicago wasn't that big, but it was sizeable. Race relations in the city were good, blacks could sit alongside whites on trolley cars. A lot of the population was middle class as well (by black standards).

Then the deluge.

After and during the war blacks from the South came to Chicago in droves. They were unsophisticated, uneducated and country. They lived 20-30 to a house, dressed shabbily, didn't have "good" manners. The middle class black community of Chicago was in an uproar because the country black folks were making them look bad. Suddenly race relations deteriorated because of the influx of blacks from the South.

How is this relevant? There is a cultural schism in the black "community". To everyone else (who's not black) the popular conception of what it means to be black is the urban black, who speaks slang, dresses trendily, bling bling, etc. On the other hand there are blacks (like me) who do not identify AT ALL with the urban black culture. Who find urban black culture embarassing at times and resent that urban blacks seem to identify blacks as a whole as far as non-blacks are considered. Much like Chicago 100 years ago.

So, to direct Solo directly. Don't buy into the popular black notion that you have to define your self-worth and self-identity by comparing yourself to whites. There are low-class blacks, middle & high class blacks and while each strata seems to have issues with the other, they all share the same thing: THEIR SENSE OF SELF-WORTH IS DEFINED TO THEIR RELATIVE POSITION TO SUCCESSFUL WHITE PEOPLE.

We could really have a loooooong discussion about this. Why aren't other racial groups caught up in this cycle? I have plenty of ideas, but of course I require cooperation.

Discuss.

[Solo]

So, to direct Solo directly. Don't buy into the popular black notion that you have to define your self-worth and self-identity by comparing yourself to whites. There are low-class blacks, middle & high class blacks and while each strata seems to have issues with the other, they all share the same thing: THEIR SENSE OF SELF-WORTH IS DEFINED TO THEIR RELATIVE POSITION TO SUCCESSFUL WHITE PEOPLE.

We could really have a loooooong discussion about this. Why aren't other racial groups caught up in this cycle? I have plenty of ideas, but of course I require cooperation.

Discuss.

I don't define my sense of self worth based on my relative position to white people. I define myself based on my actions/morals/ethics/intelligence.

If you want to talk about racial groups start a thread in People in Psychology. It would make for a good discussion.