screw radio waves. Matter Distortion

[Shai Gar]

i was talking with a mate about the limits of WiFi because of radio frquency. i ran through everything i know about the subject quickly in my head (not much) and then i thought on a tangent, i started thinking about how matter vibrates and then thought what a brilliant way to get around all that frequency in the air we should just force it into the ground. so i said "Matter Distortion" while shaun was talking about lengths and strengths and shaun looked confused.

anyway crystal glass vibrates between 1,000 and 10,000 vibrations per second (1-10 kHz). shouldnt we be able to manipulate that somehow to put information on that frequency?

just an idea i had

[Chall T. Dow]

Could you explain yourself better. I'm not sure of what you're suggesting. Are you saying we put down crystal and use it as a medium or just use the ground itself? I don't believe either would work very well or be practical, but I'll have to brush up on my wave mechanics to say for sure.

Chall T. Dow

[pintpi]

I don't know if you knew this Shai Gar but humans use matter distortion to communicate with one another all the time, It's called speaking. Air molecules vibrate back and forth causing the ear drum to vibrate in a similar fashion, thus causing the transfer of information from one person to another.

Your idea would have been ingenious about 500 millions years ago before the invention of ear drums but it really isn't such an amazing piece of technology any more.

Just messing with you of course. :)

I am assuming that I am misunderstanding what you were trying to say in your post, but are you saying we should do some kind of carrier frequency modulation so we can transmit multiple information channels through the ground or whatever other medium you are referring to?

This reminds me of the time when I was about 15 years old and I came up with the idea to create an engine that doesn't require spark plugs. It works on the idea the when you compress a gas, it heats up and if I could find a gas that has a relatively low ignition temperature, the gas would combust all by itself without the need for an ignition source.

Shortly there after I found out that some ass by the name of Rudolf Diesel had already invented such an engine, The Diesel Engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine) in 1892. About 83 years before I was born. :(

[Shai Gar]

heh. rightio. i have had several ideas like that myself.

however this one involves using the earth itself as a form of communication. i dont know how to do it, i dont know anything about it. it is just an idea one going slightly off nikoli teslas big radio idea. shit i dont know how to say it its just an idea i had

[pintpi]

however this one involves using the earth itself as a form of communication. i dont know how to do it, i dont know anything about it. it is just an idea one going slightly off nikoli teslas big radio idea. shit i dont know how to say it its just an idea i had
Yea, I have had the same problem myself numerous times. Intuition seems to be a bit shy about expressing it's true meaning in a way we can understand logically. It gives little hints of interesting ideas but it never seems to give us the complete idea in plain english (or whatever language you prefer). I often get hints from my intuition of ideas to explore but it would be much easier on us all if it would just get to the point so I don't have to waste the time thinking it out logically. Oh wait a minute that is what my brain is for, alright than, shut up intuition and let me figure it out myself.

Excuse me I was just having an argument with my intuition.

[Ascending]

I invented the self sealing tire. ;)

A few years too late unfortunatly.

[Shai Gar]

Yea, I have had the same problem myself numerous times. Intuition seems to be a bit shy about expressing it's true meaning in a way we can understand logically. It gives little hints of interesting ideas but it never seems to give us the complete idea in plain english (or whatever language you prefer). I often get hints from my intuition of ideas to explore but it would be much easier on us all if it would just get to the point so I don't have to waste the time thinking it out logically. Oh wait a minute that is what my brain is for, alright than, shut up intuition and let me figure it out myself.

Excuse me I was just having an argument with my intuition.
if only the n and the t were directly linked together. it would save us the problem of having to figure it out

[Architectonic]

So what are you suggesting exactly? That we should use longitudinal pressure waves instead of electromagnetic waves?

You do realize that this would be far more inefficient?
High frequency pressure waves tend to decay too quickly, whereas at very low frequencies, you don't have much bandwith.

Why not just use a different frequency (electromagnetic wave) to transmit data over longer distances? (which is a far more efficient idea...)

Believe it or not, there are actually reasons behind why WiFi uses that specific range of frequencies.

[Shai Gar]

but there has to be something better if you cannot transfer more than a gig per second over a distance of a metre

[Architectonic]

All you need is more bandwidth.

[Shai Gar]

meh

[Architectonic]

?

You do know what bandwidth means right?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bandwidth

[Shai Gar]

what do i look like to you? an ESFJ?

i just gave up on the idea is all.

[Dunearhp]

Intuition only gives correct and fully formed ideas when you completely understand all of the surrounding theory. Otherwise it just throws up hypothetical tangents.

You could send data through pressure waves, but they don't travel as far or fast as radio at the same energy levels. The speed differentials due to density variations in the ground would mean that the receiver would get a very distorted signal. The distortion would also vary depending on where you put the transmitter and receiver.

[Bronto]

I remember reading about the US military working with ultralow frequencies (SP? Lazy today...) through ground vibrations. (Because they are running out of available bands)

[Architectonic]

I remember reading about how there are a lot of myths involving the US military...

[Sackanaka]

what if we developed a method of utlizing supermagnets (powered by the earth's natural magentic field and maybe heat?) in sync with plate tectonics to make full use of the earth's capacity for transmitting pressure waves?

yea intuition is very :$

[Architectonic]

And what would be the point of doing that?

[Sackanaka]

nothing : |

[Shai Gar]

hey, at least she is giving her imagination a workout

[Architectonic]

Hey, that would have meant an imaginative (perhaps sci-fi) type reason for generating these very powerful pressure waves.

Or perhaps you'd simply like to generate a large earthquake that takes out most of North America. :P

Or South Australia even. ;)

[kuranes]

I'm not an electrical engineer, or a geophysicist either, but I still think it's worthwhile looking into things like Tesla's theories, ELF transmissions, the "ground battery" concept, and other things that relate to that. One view might be that just because Tesla invented alternating current and other things, it doesn't mean that some of his ideas back in those heady early days weren't "crack pot". Another view ( mine ) would be that it's worth at least investigating such with open minded scientists today. I emphasize the "open minded" part. For a long time it was assumed ( until relatively recently ) that internal stomach ulcers were mostly created by stress, and ideas about bacteria being involved were "crack pot." Fortunately certain open minded types persevered and we now have pharmaceutical cures for many such ulcers. Amazing how quickly the high and mighty establishment was to THEN say a sort of "oh yes, we know that", when they had ridiculed the people proposing it. K

[Architectonic]

Ok, when people invent a process, it generally has a reason or a purpose.

Shai Gar wanted a more efficient way of wirelessly transmitting data over various distances, WiFi for example. Unfortunately, pressure waves tend to be more problematic than electomagnetic waves for this purpose. Although speech/music etc is still a reasonably practical use for pressure waves.

I'm not sure which of Tesla's theories you are refering to. ELF and Stubblefield's wireless transmission both use electromagnetic waves. As far as earth/ground batteries go, I couldn't find much info, except for this:

http://www.energenx.com/john34/stublefield1.html

[kuranes]

I'm not a Tesla expert either, but I think it would be interesting for us to find out more about it as a group. Some of the members here are scientists. Opinions from elsewhere could be brought in as well. One of the areas that he worked in would supposedly allow for such "wireless communication." I'd have to look at my notes at home to give you an exact name. I will check out your link too, when I get the time. Thanks for the info. I could be wrong, but I believe it was you who brought up "pressure waves" vs. electromagnetically communicating through the ground. I would agree that pressure waves would be a "stretch". K

[Shai Gar]

i am kind of a fan of tesla, but i have yet to do research into the feild. maybe this is a good chance

[Shai Gar]

posted so i can print it at school

[Architectonic]

I could be wrong, but I believe it was you who brought up "pressure waves" vs. electromagnetically communicating through the ground. I would agree that pressure waves would be a "stretch". K

Well, I was under the impression that is what Shai Gar meant by "matter distortion", pintpi brought up speech before me, which of course uses pressure waves.

Anyway, here is a Tesla link I've found previously,

Tesla's Autobiography:
http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/96jul/teslaautobio.html

Shai Gar might be interested in this biography also:
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/mad-science/nikola-tesla/

Some of the more contraversial claims of his are the controlled/targeted transmission of electricity over large distances, through the earth or air. (not just electromagnetic waves)

[Shai Gar]

interested? mildly, before he was one of my role models, now after reading that i too am going to create a machine that can wipe towns electrical generators and such. i shall also attempt to blow up all the worlds plutonium using a radio.

this man is my personal hero and the patron saint of all mad scientists

[Shai Gar]

shit, screw that, einstein was the patron saint of all GOOD INTPs, this man is the patron saint of all SLIGHTLY KOOKOO INTPs

[Architectonic]

Tesla was more of a classic mad-scientist ENTP. I've known a few ENTPs who remind me very much of him.

[Dunearhp]

Bugger this. Why not try for gravity waves.

Take one small planet, and wobble it a bit. Should be a cinch.

[Shai Gar]

maybe we could experiment on bribie island

[kuranes]

I've tried finding out more about the controversial projects of Tesla, and there is a tremendous amount of material on it, most of which usually stops short of offering the nuggets we're really looking for here, eg - specifics on Tesla's final discoveries and also modern efforts to follow in his footsteps etc. He wrote a paper in 1892 called "The Dissipation of Energy" which referred to how abrupt discharges of electrostatic potentials and the subsequent release of kinetic radiant energy could be used. The first phase of building a demo of this was a place called Wardenclyffe, where he had invested some of his money in order to get further funding. Unfortunately he was somewhat at the mercy of his patrons, who wished to be in control of industries vs. "bringing progress to the world" and it has been proposed that J.P. Morgan burned his lab to the ground ( not Wardenclyffe, I don't think ) putting Tesla at his mercy, since he had strayed into this man's sphere of influence and left the more benign Westinghouse. In order to pay for this disaster, and take care of an outstanding hotel bill, and various other problems, Tesla had to sell Wardenclyffe, and it was dismantled for scrap value. So we may never know what he would have done further. People who DO claim to know will sell you "kits" that allow you to set up various mini-demos of your own, supposedly. How many of these are just internet scams is open to question. We need to remain open minded but suspicious in this realm. Understanding some of the sweeping scientific revolutions proposed here may involve taking a few steps back, or OUT of established jargon. I propose that we should allow a certain amount of that just as any investigators look at hypotheses. In this examination of old and new controversial theories we will be asked to "reframe" our current foundations. Words such as "ether" that have been thoroughly trampled upon will be brought up etc. Does that mean we should turn away with a sneer and dismiss it? No. But we need not embrace it either, until we've decided that we're really "on" to something.

The second aspect of this is to look at what people are doing today with alternate communications and energy that may be interesting, because trying to dig through ancient records on Tesla, T. Henry Moray and other such turn-of-the-century luminaries may only get us so far.

There are reports of an impending IPO for a new phase of technology offerings ( which may relate to the above ) at Black Light Power. www.blacklightpower.com. An estimated 10 to 30 million has been raised as an initial investment. This new venture is not mentioned on the website url I just gave you. What the company has been doing up til now has been entirely focused instead on hydrogen and plasma etc. ( After reading up on plasma torches, and other offerings from plasma technology, I think we could actually get back to Shai's original "matter distortion" phrase, if we wanted to. ;^D )

Getting our ducks in line, the special Tesla radiant energy has been described in modern scientific terms as "neither electromagnetic, nor ionizing, nor blackbody, but instead longitudinally-radiated massfree electric energy composed of cycloidal waves." I leave it to the scientists among us to explain some of this in laymen's terms. Scalar waves, "transverse electromagnetic waves exhibiting rapid alteration of electric fields along a fixed axis that radiate away from the point of origin at the speed of light" and such like are the kind of terms being mentioned here. A recent Tesla investigator claims that he would have HAD to succeeed at his final experiments to have known specific frequencies associated with the earth ionosphere wave guide that were not discovered until more recent times. This may also be what people refer to as ZPE, "zero point energy". No doubt a discussion of HAARP will get dragged into this also.

As the electric power industry grew and spread across the USA and elsewhere, power lines began to appear all over the place. One of the claims that you'll hear is a "chicken or egg" argument about whether some of the advanced technologies are simply "stealing from these established lines vs. drawing power from new/unknown sources" which, if true, might STILL be interesting, for different reasons! OR that the powerlines themselves are subject to well-known interference from "ley lines" and other "jet streams of the earth" so to speak, and that the lines ultimately could be dispensed with once we connect with their "true source" etc.

The "wireless" project of Tesla was called "radiophony" I think, and there is not as much info on that as on the radiant power project. One area of wireless that's being worked on today that's kind of neat is combining ultra wide band with mesh network wireless.

While looking up Tesla, I also serendipitously discovered some other great inventors who were hustled into the margins by captains of industry. "Pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain". Would anyone care to hear more about THEM as well?

K

[kuranes]

By the way, our knowledge of ELF waves ( 60 Hz ) is limited due to the size of the wavelengths. One wavelength is approximately the width of the USA. I've heard news that submarines use these to communicate with one another over vast distances. Anyone know if they really do? It was later suggested that phenomenons such as ESP might simply be extensions or unknown uses and receptions of such waves. This last claim is so "out there" that it would be very difficult to investigate, obviously. I mention it just for fun, like "ball lightning" is fun. K

[Shai Gar]

I think we could actually get back to Shai's original "matter distortion" phrase, if we wanted to. ;^D why? i like the way this conversation is going



Would anyone care to hear more about THEM as well?
definately

[Dunearhp]

By the way, our knowledge of ELF waves ( 60 Hz ) is limited due to the size of the wavelengths. One wavelength is approximately the width of the USA. I've heard news that submarines use these to communicate with one another over vast distances. Anyone know if they really do?

Yes they do communicate using ELF. Only the lowest frequencies can efficiently penetrate the deep water. Higher frequencies just bounce off.

I am not sure if they can communicate with other submarines without having to relay the signal through very large ground based receivers. The ariel needs to be at least 1/4 wavelength long before it can really be efficient.

[Architectonic]

By the way, our knowledge of ELF waves ( 60 Hz ) is limited due to the size of the wavelengths. One wavelength is approximately the width of the USA. I've heard news that submarines use these to communicate with one another over vast distances. Anyone know if they really do?

From what I've read, communucation via ELF is rather primitive, owing to the fact that you need a very large antenna to transmit ELF and secondly, very little bandwidth is used. (you can't modulate complex signals at low frequencies very well)

For obvious reasons, 60hz won't be used....

Its basically a way to send a message to a deeply submerged submarine for it to come closer to the surface and recieve detailed communications.

I believe the ELF communication system is no longer in operation...

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1998/s980625-dod-elf.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_low_frequency
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/elf.htm

[Architectonic]

While looking up Tesla, I also serendipitously discovered some other great inventors who were hustled into the margins by captains of industry. "Pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain". Would anyone care to hear more about THEM as well?


Perhaps...

I can't say I believe in perpetual motion machines though. ;)

Here are some of the other links I found out:

Some info on HAARP and other frightening cold-war projects.

http://www.earthpulse.com/haarp/background.html
http://www.earthpulse.com/haarp/

Some of Dr Mills' theories are interesting, although I'd have to say I'm rather lacking knowledge in the quantum physics department at the moment.
Hydrino study group:
http://www.hydrino.org/

[lexiphanic]

Part of what Tesla seems to have done is release electromagnetic energy in a kind of self directed electromagnetic field. Just an attempt at clarification from what I read.

I think Tesla was fucking brilliant. I wish he would have been more successful in his later ventures.

[Network Alchemy]

i am not certain where you acquired the quotations but ~transverse electromagnetic waves exhibiting rapid alteration of electric fields along a fixed axis that radiate away from the point of origin at the speed of light~ in particular is strange because it is saying ~[definition of electromagnetic waves]~ while using the words electromagnetic waves within it

although another way i can see it is that it is possibly expressing that the electric field portion is somehow more potent than the magnetic portion and so is radiated away however i feel if this were the case the wave would curve although if it did curve it would form something like a section of a tube (like a crescent - or a cycloid) that radiated away like an alternating thread on a bolt (a thread that did not go around in a full circle, but traversed only a portion of the circumference and reversed direction and continued doing this all the way along the length of the bolt)

possibly

[Shai Gar]

lexiphanic? how do you not know he wasnt

[Sackanaka]

ahh too complex for me but
im a guy :|

[lexiphanic]

lexiphanic? how do you not know he wasnt

Tesla's greater experiments were more grandiose and required basically an the entire American night-time power-grid to function. He never got too far into his studies due to the ridiculous amounts of power needed along with agreement from the powers that be. (I mean the man was shooting huge blasts of lightning at the fucking rocky mountains! The government isn't really all that happy about people doing that.)

[Shai Gar]

who cares what the government thinks? that was a brilliant idea and i would have given my english teachers right arm to have been there.

as soon as i figure out how to do it you can damn well bet you will see on the news that ayres rock is now a lightning magnet

[Architectonic]

LOL

[Shai Gar]

you wont be laughing when i do it, i am plugging my machine into a powerpoint in brisbane. drain all the power

[Dunearhp]

you wont be laughing when i do it, i am plugging my machine into a powerpoint in brisbane. drain all the power

1.21 Terrawatts :shock:

1.21 Terrawatts :eek:
Just so long as I don't have to pay the power bill.

In reference to your sig:
[2005-03-20|12:34:36] <SirIsaacLime> for about 5 hours I wasn't sure if I was a mushroom, Jesus Christ, or Charles Manson

Attack of the Messianic Killer Fungi?

[Shai Gar]

no, he had just ingested 5 grams of magic mushos.

it was in a long line of drug conversation that i didnt log for "legal reasons"... i forgot.

[Geek Engineer]

Hey speaking of matter distortion what about sonofussion? It sounds like they were able to measure that they can generate temperatures hot enouph for fussion in a sufuric acid and argon liquid. I would like to see a picture of there setup and see if it would be possible to make my own at home to experiment... I haven't been able to find a good picture yet to see how complicated there setup is. I have a rouph idea I could try which might even work better who knows...

Of course hopefully I don't blow up my basement in the process..haha

[Shai Gar]

i have 20L of Hydochloric acid, can i do anything with that?

[Geek Engineer]

i have 20L of Hydochloric acid, can i do anything with that?

Well you can drink it..hehe.. :devil:

Just kidding... ( Just in case you believe me and the lawers come after me..haha)

I don't know if that would work or not. They were using sufuric acid because of it's low vapor pressure worked better for the cavitation effect and I think if I remember right the argon gas helps stablize the tiny bubble that was formed. I suppose if Hydrocloric acid has a low vapor pressure and it does have hydrogen in it so if you could somehow work it down to just "heavy" Hydrocloric acid maybe you have something there..haha... Not sure if you would need dutrium in a free form for it to work though, because sufuic acid has hydrogen in it too.


HCL:

PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES

APPEARANCE: Colorless

ODOR: Suffocating pungent odor.

PHYSICAL PRESSURE: Liquefied gas.

VAPOR PRESSURE: @ 20 deg.C: 42.71 atm.

VAPOR DENSITY (AIR=1): 1.268

BOILING POINT (C): -84.8

SOLUBILITY IN WATER: Complete

SPECIFIC GRAVITY (H2O=1): Gas

EVAPORATION RATE: N/Av

H2SO4:

ODOR THRESHOLD: .2 to 5 ppm

Description Colorless liquid
Molecular formula H2SO4
Molecular weight 98.1 g/mol
Density 1.84 g/cm3 @ 15° C
Boiling point 330±0.5°C (100%)
Melting point 10.36°C (100%)
Vapor pressure <0.001 torr @ 25° C; 1 torr @ 145.8° C
Solubility Soluble in water
Conversion factor Not applicable


Note: 1 torr = 0.00131578947 atm

Well I looked it up and it looks like HCl has a much higher vapor pressure, but hey don't give up it's worth a try..