What's going on in Africa? (in general)

[Karl]

I feel like my school completely skipped over African history. (If we're to believe the chauvinists, it's because history didn't really happen there. Whatever that means.) As it is, I find myself to be unable to BBC news about Africa, even with all it's clear cut sections dividing the world, let alone a news source that's actually from Africa.

If I can blame my education for my ignorance, I can't blame it for my continuing ignorance, sense I obviously realize that it's a problem. I had been selectively following news I could understand, but I think I should end this.

Does anyone have any advice on how to remedy this? Any book recommendations?

[outmywindow]

In general?

Birth, death, various forms of cellular respiration, the carbon cycle, and the slow relative movement of tectonic plates.

[stopharian]

In my opinion its too big to take as a whole. Read some sort of overview of Africa and then try to delve into a certain area which interests you.



One subject, however, which would cover nearly the whole of Africa is and is extremely important to understanding what is going on today would be to research the European colonial and territorial claims in Africa around the time of WW1 (1914). The effects of which are widespread and have been long lasting.

[Hustler]

Guns, Germs, and Steel does a nice job of discussing Africa in the context of human and social evolution since the prehistoric era. Of course, it talks about the whole world, not just Africa, but it's a good place to start to see how Africa fits in with the rest of the world.

Wikipedia is a great place to start, as well. You can just peruse the links. Maybe start in Mali and see where it takes you.

[Oso Mocoso]

Does anyone have any advice on how to remedy this? Any book recommendations?

Modern African history is FASCINATING. You'll love it. My advice is to start with reading about the Liberian civil wars. Why Liberia? It's an interesting combination of American culture and politics with African culture and politics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Taylor_%28Liberia%29

Charles Taylor is an interesting guy. Another colorful figure from the war was General Butt Naked, the leader of the Butt Naked Brigade which fought in support of Roosevelt Johnson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Butt_Naked

Getting away from Liberia, Mali has some awesome pop music like Amadou and Miriam. You could try listening to some Ethiopian jazz which is also quite good. Mulatu Astatke is a good pick.

You probably already know at least something about Somalia and South Africa, since they're in the news a lot. Right? You could read more. South Africa is interesting in particular to read the fallout of apartheid's disintegration. That plays in with the wars in western Africa because South Africa's former military became a mercenary army that was willing to fight in regional squabbles around the continent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Outcomes

These were the topics that got me interested in reading about Africa. I came across initial mentions of a lot of this stuff in "The World's Most Dangerous Places" by Robert Young Pelton. Sadly, a lot of the book is devoted to Africa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World%27s_Most_Dangerous_Places

[lowtech redneck]

African history before Islamic or European penetration is largely either unknown or highly uncertain due to the lack of written records.

Hustler has already recommended two good sources (in the sense that Wikipedia is a great a place to look for information you can verify elsewhere); Guns, Germs, and Steel is absolutely essential to understanding certain things about Africa, and I spend a great deal of time re-reading the country information and referencing the listed sources on Wikipedia.

http://allafrica.com/ is a great source for current news

The Graves Are Not Yet Full has great information about recent Kleptocratic regimes and how warlords utilize apparent anarchy to maintain their power (it also has extensive information concerning strategic alliances between these dictators and the evil Western imperialists, you should really love this book).

If you are interested in the numerous tribal groups, an exhaustive (albeit highly biased and not at all academic) source is http://www.joshuaproject.net/ As an information center for Evangelical missionaries, the information should be viewed with a huge grain of salt, but much of the information seems to be in synch with stuff I have read from academic sources.

[stopharian]

There are the african kingdoms from the middle ages......Ghana, Mali, Songhai, Kush etc. as well as older civilizations in Ethiopia(Ethiopian Jews are curently the only ones with proven genetic links to the priesthood)

And dont forget that Egypt is in Africa.


Look up the Boer wars, watch Zulu with Micheal Caine, find something on Livingston and Stanley and the search for the Nile headwaters.....

[Holy Christ stopharian, it's called the 'edit, delete' button! -omw]

[Karl]

Ha, stophorian did a x4 post. I did an x3 a minute ago due to that forum glitch, except that each time I added more to it. Anyway I'm impressed and glad that so many people have taken the time to learn about this and I will make it my next reading project to go over this stuff, after I finish On Trotskyism.

Edit: And probably I'll read some before that sense I have trouble focusing on one thing.

[Oso Mocoso]

And dont forget that Egypt is in Africa.

And Carthage, which was equally interesting. Also, later on the Vandal kingdom was in northern Africa. For people interested in early Christianity, there were some very interesting takes on the religion that emerged from Africa. They all were stamped out as heresies later on, but records of the beliefs survived.

[Hi-meh]

I've been looking into the Portugese colonial/slave trade ties w/West Africa myself. Don't forget the Queen of Sheba and Solomon as well. Word on the street is that Solomon banged the queen, produced a son, and that Ethiopia has the Ark of Covenant as a gift. You can see in Ethiopia the place where it supposedly is stored, as well as guarded.

Speaking of queens here's a short overview of some notable ones.
http://www.swagga.com/queen.htm

You might also want to look into Brazil as well, it's considered the second Africa since so many Africans were taken and sold there. I think 65% (or around there give or take few digits) of all enslaved African ended up in Brasil. "Route of The Orixas on the Black Atlantic" is a great documentary concerning Africa and Brasil. I know the Portugese version is on You Tube. Maybe you can find a version w/some translation on Google video or You Tube. I recently just saw another Afro-Brasilian documentary earlier in the week called "Quilombo Country." While not as good as Orixas, it's still pretty interesting.

[lowtech redneck]

There are the african kingdoms from the middle ages......Ghana, Mali, Songhai, Kush etc. as well as older civilizations in Ethiopia(Ethiopian Jews are curently the only ones with proven genetic links to the priesthood)

And dont forget that Egypt is in Africa.


Look up the Boer wars, watch Zulu with Micheal Caine, find something on Livingston and Stanley and the search for the Nile headwaters.....

[Holy Christ stopharian, it's called the 'edit, delete' button! -omw]

Good point, I forgot about Kush and Ethiopia. They both had written languages from earlier in history. As for the rest, I was referring to sub-Saharan Africa. The kingdoms from the middle-ages you mentioned are well-known due to Islamic penetration.

[immortalmack]

I feel like my school completely skipped over African history. (If we're to believe the chauvinists, it's because history didn't really happen there. Whatever that means.) As it is, I find myself to be unable to BBC news about Africa, even with all it's clear cut sections dividing the world, let alone a news source that's actually from Africa.

If I can blame my education for my ignorance, I can't blame it for my continuing ignorance, sense I obviously realize that it's a problem. I had been selectively following news I could understand, but I think I should end this.

Does anyone have any advice on how to remedy this? Any book recommendations?

Libray of Congress

[cripple]

Guns, Germs, and Steel is absolutely essential to understanding certain things about Africa

Oh no it's not. It's the old fashion way.

Medieval war in Kenya. Bow and arrows on the battefield!
http://www.sawfnews.com/Lifestyle/48929.aspx

Pictures
http://www.vg.no/lydbilder/forsiden/vis/id/85 (push the play button)

[fripping]

people are fucking each other's shit up big time and 99% of us are never going to see, feel, or notice it. that's what's going on.

[charred_heart]

Speaking of queens here's a short overview of some notable ones.
http://www.swagga.com/queen.htm



That site is crap. Queen Candace was Sudanese (or Nubian anyway), and she fought the Romans.

http://www.dignubia.org/maps/timeline/bce-0024.htm

an interesting article that was published on national geographic recently

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/02/black-pharaohs/robert-draper-text

[Kameraad Eksteen]

people are fucking each other's shit up big time and 99% of us are never going to see, feel, or notice it. that's what's going on.

My first post!

Hey, I'm part of the 1% that does see feel and notice it, being an Afrikaner here in deepest darkest Africa.

Like the others said, Africa is a mighty big place with lots of shit going on. History wise, there is a lot of rewriting going on here in Southern Africa, in an attempt instill a sense pride in the post apartheid youth. Expect some really twisted tales about the Cubans and East Germans fighting in Angola during the cold war for example, the newest version says the Commies won the war. There is also a lot of denial from a lot Western history writers about the for instance the systematic genocide committed by the British during the second Anglo-Boer. The British still believe they were God's gift to Africa.

Oh, and we have De Beers and a couple of multinationals and American oil companies raping the whole place, displacing Bushman fueling and funding civil wars in central Africa etc. every diamond is a blood diamond. The whole of Uganda is even run by the multinational company Africon.

[Hi-meh]

That site is crap. Queen Candace was Sudanese (or Nubian anyway), and she fought the Romans.

http://www.dignubia.org/maps/timeline/bce-0024.htm

an interesting article that was published on national geographic recently

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/02/black-pharaohs/robert-draper-text


Ok.

[Sokkorobo]

It sucks that Africa is an unproductive animalistic humanitarian nightmare. But do you know what? Africans are people just like me. I live in a society of people and if you want to accept the fact that Africans are people then they need to act like people. In the western world we usually act like people. I do not have the constant worry of violence hanging over my head. At some point the question needs to be asked, "what the fuck is wrong with Africa?"

I only have suspicions as to the ailments of that contenent but what I do know is that their barbarism does not concern me. If at any time they wish to become productive members of world affairs they may do so. Everything that they do is a choice they make. They make the choice of war and AIDS then so be it.

[doob]

I feel like my school completely skipped over African history. (If we're to believe the chauvinists, it's because history didn't really happen there. Whatever that means.) As it is, I find myself to be unable to BBC news about Africa, even with all it's clear cut sections dividing the world, let alone a news source that's actually from Africa.

If I can blame my education for my ignorance, I can't blame it for my continuing ignorance, sense I obviously realize that it's a problem. I had been selectively following news I could understand, but I think I should end this.

Does anyone have any advice on how to remedy this? Any book recommendations?

Africa Today, I think the podcasts are available on iTunes or

http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?show=4

[firch]

It sucks that Africa is an unproductive animalistic humanitarian nightmare.
That's the impression you'll get from watching the news but for the most part life goes on and that is not news. I suppose a lot of this news bias is to do with how little Africa is concerned with international intrigue now that the cold war is over and seeing how most exports from that region are commodities rather than finished goods. Expect more news stories to do with Chinese investment in the region in the near future. Africa will likely one day become the manufacturing centre of the world but that future is a long way off and depends on the continued survival of industrial society.

At some point the question needs to be asked, "what the fuck is wrong with Africa?"
Well, probably nothing from the point of view of sub-Saharan Africans. The human species originally evolved there and they are at home. It is those that left in the first migration out of the continent who populated the rest of the world and it is they who met a great number of challenges along the way that required introspection and long term vision (that I controversially believe changed them at the genetic level) but you only need to look at the numbers of black people in Africa to see that they are quite well adapted to living there, so its really just a sense of abhorrence towards a way of functioning that we instinctually find distasteful because it wouldn't fly in northern climes. I don't need to point out the geographically obvious do I?

Mother nature doesn't care about what white people like (http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wordpress.com/) in Africa. Not unless we were to keep all the tropical medicines for ourselves, but the idea of that makes me uncomfortable.

[Deckard]

It sucks that Africa is an unproductive animalistic humanitarian nightmare. But do you know what? Africans are people just like me. I live in a society of people and if you want to accept the fact that Africans are people then they need to act like people. In the western world we usually act like people. I do not have the constant worry of violence hanging over my head. At some point the question needs to be asked, "what the fuck is wrong with Africa?"

I only have suspicions as to the ailments of that contenent but what I do know is that their barbarism does not concern me. If at any time they wish to become productive members of world affairs they may do so. Everything that they do is a choice they make. They make the choice of war and AIDS then so be it.
Jesus fucking christ. Put your head back up your arse and leave it there, kthx.

[silady79]

Bedlam. Absolute bedlam and carnage is what's going on there. I find it really said that there's so much war and blood goiing on there.

[immortalmack]

It sucks that Africa is an unproductive animalistic humanitarian nightmare. But do you know what? Africans are people just like me. I live in a society of people and if you want to accept the fact that Africans are people then they need to act like people. In the western world we usually act like people. I do not have the constant worry of violence hanging over my head. At some point the question needs to be asked, "what the fuck is wrong with Africa?"

I only have suspicions as to the ailments of that contenent but what I do know is that their barbarism does not concern me. If at any time they wish to become productive members of world affairs they may do so. Everything that they do is a choice they make. They make the choice of war and AIDS then so be it.

Don't take it personal but where do you get your history lessons and viewpoint of Africa? You are greatly deceived. The West is alive and well for the second go-round of resource raping of Africa.

[Sokkorobo]

Don't take it personal but where do you get your history lessons and viewpoint of Africa? You are greatly deceived. The West is alive and well for the second go-round of resource raping of Africa.

I view economic exploitation as a side effect of a greater problem. Africa is perfectly capable of providing for itself. Yet it doesn't. Consider the massive food aid provided. Why is it that nearly an entire continent is incapable of providing for itself modern standards of living?

Europeans can be blamed for the exploitation and moronic partitions initially. However that doesn't explain the relative barbarism that is the it now experiences. (yes they have had only the last half century to get it right but goddamn)

Since I am not a raciest I view them the same as myself. Human beings. And I do not find it unreasonable to expect certain methods of interaction to be applied to all. The way they often interact is unacceptable.

Just because one is poor or undereducated is no excuse for disregarding a cohesive doctrine of social interaction.

[trapstar]

[Ignorant shitfest]

We can all chalk it up to that the money the west pours in is far less than the capital they take out. People aren't dumb (except for you obviously). Stuff doesn't come for free.

[Mr.Miagi]

I'm one of those rare white Africans. It's an interesting continent to say the least. I urge all of you to come and visit this place one day. It will change your perspective on a lot of things that's for sure.

P.S.
There's a lot of wild generalizations in this thread. Or maybe I'm just biased.

[charred_heart]

I'm one of those rare white Africans. It's an interesting continent to say the least. I urge all of you to come and visit this place one day. It will change your perspective on a lot of things that's for sure.


that's right, show them the way

Wax on, right hand. Wax off, left hand. Wax on, wax off. Breathe in through nose, out the mouth. Wax on, wax off. Don't forget to breathe, very important.

[Sokkorobo]

So I sense a bit of ire directed toward me. As far as generalizations go I understand that my criticisms are of a heated and at present unsubstantiated nature. I base my conclusions on observation. How much objection can be raised over the statement that Africa is broken? And how outrageous is the thought of holding everyone to the same standards of human rights?

Is all this negative feedback due in part to the antagonistic style or the fact that I failed to answer the subject matter and make a statement?

[Oso Mocoso]

So I sense a bit of ire directed toward me.

How observant of you.


As far as generalizations go I understand that my criticisms are of a heated and at present unsubstantiated nature.

You could tighten up that sentence by saying "moronic".


I base my conclusions on observation. How much objection can be raised over the statement that Africa is broken? And how outrageous is the thought of holding everyone to the same standards of human rights?

Yeah, and I'm sure the massive differences in wealth throughout the area combined with the poor infrastructure have nothing to do with the problem. We'll just blame the poor people for the problems of their favelas and wash our hands of the issue like vapid entitled Americans.


Is all this negative feedback due in part to the antagonistic style or the fact that I failed to answer the subject matter and make a statement?

It's because you're acting like the very stereotype of a stupid American. Why don't you go drink a Budweiser and watch football? There's a minimum standard for how stupid you should be allowed to behave and still ride the Internet. You've failed to meet the standard. Please commit seppuku.

Or go take "Planet of Slums" by Mike Davis out of the library and read it. Then maybe you'd be less of a douche.

[Kameraad Eksteen]

Europeans can be blamed for the exploitation and moronic partitions initially. However that doesn't explain the relative barbarism that is the it now experiences. (yes they have had only the last half century to get it right but goddamn)

Europeans were followed by the Communists, and now we have the resource hungry Chinese funding the warlords ... but you knew that, right?:stupid:

[Mr.Miagi]

So I sense a bit of ire directed toward me. As far as generalizations go I understand that my criticisms are of a heated and at present unsubstantiated nature. I base my conclusions on observation.

That's great, at least you admit to generalizing. Now, next step... book a ticket to Africa, read African literature, intellectualize on the subject a bit more. Refine your argument. Validate it. Be more INTJ on this.

[SensEye]

It's two things Sokkorobo, your explanations are far to simplistic and not well thought out. There are legions of economic analysis books out there regarding why various economies are disparagate. It's a complicated business.

Secondly, it is not politically correct to imply that any disadvantaged group is the author of their own demise.

[Hi-meh]

Bedlam. Absolute bedlam and carnage is what's going on there. I find it really said that there's so much war and blood goiing on there.

I hear Senegal is doing quite well.



I urge all of you to come and visit this place one day. It will change your perspective on a lot of things that's for sure.


Sigh, someday I will.

[2Quik4U]

There's plenty of history in Africa. I'm Ethiopian so I know a lot about my own people's history in depth as well as the history of our neighbors like the Nubians and Egyptians(The real ones that are black).

As far as what's going on now, basically the after-effects of imperialism and racist practices. Not enough unity amongst blacks all over the world which keeps them in this stagnent position as a people.

[RottenApple]

I've lived in Africa my whole life and I agree with Sokkorobo... to a point. The antagonism directed towards him in this thread highlights the ignorance of other users more than his, in my opinion. Yes it's too simplistic to take his post as the only viewpoint, but to dismiss it altogether is silly.

There are things which are never mentioned in the books you read or the sound bites you hear. There are complex cultural issues which most of you would probably dismiss as flat out lies because they would fly in the face of every western value and tradition upon which you have been raised.

It's a complex place and to say that Africans play no part in it's problems is somehow offensive in itself.

[Llen]

I've lived in Africa my whole life and I agree with Sokkorobo... to a point. The antagonism directed towards him in this thread highlights the ignorance of other users more than his, in my opinion. Yes it's too simplistic to take his post as the only viewpoint, but to dismiss it altogether is silly.

There are things which are never mentioned in the books you read or the sound bites you hear. There are complex cultural issues which most of you would probably dismiss as flat out lies because they would fly in the face of every western value and tradition upon which you have been raised.

It's a complex place and to say that Africans play no part in it's problems is somehow offensive in itself.

You would be hard-pressed to find a valid argument which does not place at least partial blame on the African denizens themselves. Post-colonial Africa has several high-profile examples of political corruptness, resource mismanagement, civil disputes and health epidemics which paint the entire continent as a resource-rich land of incompetent savages. However this is only an image, a poorly constructed simplistic image that benefits no-one except the Global North states which continuously exploit Africa.

RottenApple, from what I've read, the posters of this board do not entirely dismiss Sokkorobo's initial comment due to a politically correct desire to keep Africans blameless for their own affairs; to do would perpetuate the victim mentality that renders many African countries inept and barely subsistent. It appears to me that the main problem with Sokkorobo's comment is that it lacks substance, is too broad, too opinionated and lacks depth. You would think that with such a broad question, "What's going on in Africa?", a member of this forum would put some thought in her/his answer. But no, Sokkorobo gives a caustic statement which ascribes to the general, malicious image in the west that Africa is the "Dark Continent" inhabited by savages. I would expect this kind of statement from someone who hasn't read more than two paragraphs on African culture and thinks that most Africans run around butt-naked with sticks. However on this site, on this forum, Sokkorobo trivialized this thread with such generalizations.

To not realize this, RottenApple, highlights your ignorance as well.

[RottenApple]

I did say "Yes it's too simplistic to take his post as the only viewpoint, but to dismiss it altogether is silly. "

Anyway...you're correct that I'm ignorant too. I'm not quite sure what the average American/European thinks of Africa. From my point of view his opinions are not that different from a lot of people that live here.

One of my favorite political figures, Desmond Tutu, has often made similar comments.

It's not anti-African to talk about these things. All countries/people groups go through periods of cultural unrest. I often laugh at the fact that the Swedes used to be vikings. The brutes of Europe have become one of the most egalitarian societies on earth. My (somewhat ignorant) perception is that America is moving in the opposite direction.

I do believe Africa will prevail, but not until it shrugs off certain aspects of its tribal heritage.

[AkuManiMani]

What's going on in Africa?

The Four Horsemen runnin' roughshod. Thats about the sum of it.

[Oso Mocoso]

All countries/people groups go through periods of cultural unrest. I often laugh at the fact that the Swedes used to be vikings. The brutes of Europe have become one of the most egalitarian societies on earth.

Actually, they were always a very egalitarian society. They just stopped being so violent against outsiders.


I do believe Africa will prevail, but not until it shrugs off certain aspects of its tribal heritage.

Yeah, there's that, widespread corruption, a general lack of infrastructure, and the lingering hangover of colonial economics. But you're posting from Johannesburg right? Isn't that basically the economic heart of the continent? I recall South Africa kinda taking on the role of colonial power elsewhere in Africa. Well, I don't mean the .gov of South Africa but rather the former military as Executive Outcomes.

What do you think would need to happen for Africa as a whole to finally get back on its feet? What do you think about the idea of the African Renaissance?

[RottenApple]

What do you think would need to happen for Africa as a whole to finally get back on its feet? What do you think about the idea of the African Renaissance?

A short story.

A guy I employ for odd jobs recently had a second child. He phoned me at 3 in the morning a few weeks after the child was born. His little girl was terribly sick. The crown at the top of her head was opening up and her eyes had turned a gray colour. I told him that I would take her to the hospital but he would not allow it. He is a Tswana and he explained to me that it is against his culture to fix this particular problem with western medicine.

According to his beliefs, these symptoms are caused by a 'worm' which is living inside the childs head. (I'm not quite sure if this 'worm' was supposed to be literal or spiritual). The cure, according to his beliefs, is to appease the ancestors by visiting the grave site of his parents and introducing the child to the deceased.

The child died a few days later.

These cultural issues are very much part of Africa's reality. You can never separate politics from culture nor culture from politics. Our health minister publicly stated that HIV could be cured with traditional medicine, African potatoes and garlic.

What do I think of the African Renaissance? Well...I believe Africa is a wonderful place and holds plenty of potential, but I don't believe in magic. We'll get there in time but I doubt it will resemble any sort of cultural renaissance.

[RottenApple]

Sorry for reviving this thread ...but I think it's fairly interesting.

This is a good example of media coverage reporting on the news but ignoring the cultural issues.

Story at CNN (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/05/19/southafrica.violence.ap/)

What is NOT being reported is that this is largely a Zulu mob. There are cultural rifts between the African tribes dating back long before Europeans ever landed here. The news reports are saying that the mobs are chasing out Zimbabweans(and other non-South African) ...but the truth is that they are chasing out non-Zulus. Tswana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tswana)'s are being told to go back to the North West portions of the country. Pedi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedi_people)'s are being told to go back to Limpopo.
Shangaan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangaan) ...who were once connected to the Zulus... are also being targeted.

Funny thing is the Zulus are not originally from Gauteng (where Johannesburg is situated, and also where most of the violence is occurring ). The Zulus are from Kwa-Zulu Natal.

It's pretty fucked up at the moment !

[immortalmack]

Thanks for clearig that up Rotten. Thats what I hate about the media, just fucking deceiving.

[Karl]

Sorry for reviving this thread ...but I think it's fairly interesting.

This is a good example of media coverage reporting on the news but ignoring the cultural issues.

Story at CNN (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/05/19/southafrica.violence.ap/)

What is NOT being reported is that this is largely a Zulu mob. There are cultural rifts between the African tribes dating back long before Europeans ever landed here. The news reports are saying that the mobs are chasing out Zimbabweans(and other non-South African) ...but the truth is that they are chasing out non-Zulus. Tswana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tswana)'s are being told to go back to the North West portions of the country. Pedi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedi_people)'s are being told to go back to Limpopo.
Shangaan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangaan) ...who were once connected to the Zulus... are also being targeted.

Funny thing is the Zulus are not originally from Gauteng (where Johannesburg is situated, and also where most of the violence is occurring ). The Zulus are from Kwa-Zulu Natal.

It's pretty fucked up at the moment !

That might explain part of why I can't follow the news. Do you know of any news source that doesn't ignore this sort of thing?

[Kameraad Eksteen]

That might explain part of why I can't follow the news. Do you know of any news source that doesn't ignore this sort of thing?

You probably wouldn't find such a source. Much of the reporting isn't necessarily deceiving, they just assume that the audience have inside knowledge regarding the deeper issues.

In this case, if you are a South African in your late twenties, or older, it is assumed that you can speak at least isiZulu or Afrikaans. So a a policemen will come up to you and start a conversation in either of those two languages, and if your grammar falls short you better have some identification on you. This is terribly non politically correct, so you cannot expect them to report on this little tidbit of general knowledge every time.

[RottenApple]

Where in SA are you Kameraad Eksteen ?

[Kameraad Eksteen]

Where in SA are you Kameraad Eksteen ?

Right in the middle of all the xenophobic violence, Joburg.

Anyways, I know a , Zimbabwean, family the one guy and his sister got their South African citizenship, his younger brother doesn't. So, at least once a year the sister (who lives in Alex) and the younger brother ends up in the Lindela Repatriation Centre, and then the standard procedure is, they pay their R400 bribe, and they're out again. She also pays the R400, just because it's the way it works, and it's the easiest and safest way, even though she is a South African citizen. The little brother cannot always raise the cash, so he gets a free train ride to visit the family in Zim's, but he is normally back within a week or so. Oh, the joys of being poor and black and Zimbabwian and not a Shona. (The Shona being Mugabe's people)

Edit: With grammar like mine, I should stay off the streets!

[RottenApple]

Right in the middle of all the xenophobic violence, Joburg.

Anyways, I know a , Zimbabwean, family the one guy and his sister got their South African citizenship, his younger brother doesn't. So, at least once a year the sister (who lives in Alex) and the younger brother ends up in the Lindela Repatriation Centre, and then the standard procedure is, they pay their R400 bribe, and they're out again. She also pays the R400, just because it's the way it works, and it's the easiest and safest way, even though she is a South African citizen. The little brother cannot always raise the cash, so he gets a free train ride to visit the family in Zim's, but he is normally back within a week or so. Oh, the joys of being poor and black and Zimbabwian and not a Shona. (The Shona being Mugabe's people)

Edit: With grammar like mine, I should stay off the streets!

I'm also in Joburg.

A Zimbabwe lady I know from work is now an official resident of SA...but I don't think this mob cares about that. She told me they are attacking anyone whose isiZulu dialect is not 'quite right'.

I told her (and another guy I know) that they can come and stay at my place if things get ugly. I'm glad to see she's alive and well this morning.

I think this is largely connected to the fact that mbeki does not want to admit there is a problem in Zim. We really need to be putting up UN funded refugee camps outside the Zim border. I still haven't worked out why Mbeki wants to pretend everything is fine?? I don't quite understand his rationale.

Anyway, I actually really love the Zimbabweans. Such peace loving people (with some glaring exceptions of course).

[Kameraad Eksteen]

Anyway, I actually really love the Zimbabweans. Such peace loving people (with some glaring exceptions of course).

Subterfuge. I've got my own theory, and it starts with this last sentence of yours, If you say Zimbabweans, you are actually talking about the Shona and Ndebele peoples stuck in the same country. Way back when the wheels came off in Zim, it was reported in the media as a black and white issue, Mugabe and the media created this political smoke screen by marketing the land grab as poor black people taking back land stolen by the white colonialists. However at the same time as the land grab we saw the systematic destruction of selected informal settlements, why? Black informal settlements, and the thing is he has been systematically terrorizing the Ndebele people. At the same time with most of the white farms abandoned, Mugabe allowed Ndebele people to settle on the farms. These Ndebeles, unlike the Shonas, were however not allowed to resume farming or to cultivate the land apart from small scale subsistence farming. Mugabe is intentionally starving the Ndebeles, and to everybody it seems like they are themselves responsible for their dilemma.

So Mbeki is probably well aware of this tribalism/genocide going on, so by maintaining the pressure on him to comment on the Zim elections/quiet diplomacy/land grab/whatever, there is now no need for him to address the real issues. And really, by commenting on the tribalism issue he'll just be opening a can of worms for himself, something that will do nothing for his downward spiraling career.

[RottenApple]

Update:
Now there are reports that people are being paid to start these attacks.
There are many theories flying around as to who is behind it all. Zimbabweans will say it's Mugabe, Mugabe will say it's the UK, Mbeki might blame the Democratic Alliance, or the Zuma faction.

Geez ... I'm growing tired of this shit.

[Mr.Miagi]

I don't live in Jo'burg. On the contrary, I live in the transquil peace loving town of Stellenbosch. However, last night I witnessed a xenophobic racial slur between a local black resident and a foreigh immigrant car attendant (I presume he came from Central Africa), and things got quiet intense between the two! So... it seems that what has been happening in Joburg has caught up on us here in the Cape as well, but we don't have nearly as much immigrants down here as you guys up there north, although even that picture is changing rapidly.

Regarding these attacks, there's no one else to blame but an incompetent government that lacks the willpower, desire and capacity to deal with the situation. It's pathetic, but then again, TIA (This Is Africa).

[RottenApple]

Regarding these attacks, there's no one else to blame but an incompetent government that lacks the willpower, desire and capacity to deal with the situation. It's pathetic, but then again, TIA (This Is Africa).

of "willpower, desire and capacity".... desire is the key issue IMO.

I sometimes get the feeling that the ANC had such an academic view of what a great country should be that they lost touch with the animal nature of mankind. You are the government ....now govern ! It's almost as if they see governing a country as something which those barbaric westerners do. Meanwhile the country burns.

(not sure how to put those thoughts into words exactly...maybe you can do better)

[Mr.Miagi]

Yeah, the whole romantic notion of governing a country, instead of actually governing, cause it actually entails 'work'. A lot of talking, but no walking. Many plans and ideas, but no implementation. You witness this at every sector of government involvement. Just look at state companies such as Eskom, Spoornet, SAA, and Distell since 1994. Chaotic to say the least. I don't think SAA has ever managed a year of profit.

Back to foreign immigrants being attacked; I think these immigrants contribute much more to our informal sector's economy than many people give them credit. They're hardworking, innovative... and usually will work for much less money than locals tend to do.

[RottenApple]

True. I think it's true for most countries that immigrants will work for less than locals will. It's debatable whether this is a good or bad thing. Who is it good for? How would you feel if someone would do your job for half the cost? Or is it just about different work ethics of different cultures?

One things for sure...it's a perfect storm.
Food prices + Zimbabwe + lack of governance + rich/poor divide = big shit.

[Mr.Miagi]

Food prices + Zimbabwe + lack of governance + rich/poor divide = big shit.

Hey, I try hard not to be pessimistic. After all, I still live here and intend to do so in the future.

My dad is in the agriculture industry and he says food prices are still relatively cheap. 'Wait until next year!' he said. This is perpuated by the fact that government does not want to support and subsidize the agriculture sector in South Africa, purely because it is being run by whites. Result? Big shit, what else? It is a tragedy that Africa has to rely on imports and donors for food, for the continent has some of the richest and fertile soil on the planet, but it doesn't get utilized. Why? Because there are more important things on Africa's agenda right now, such as corruption, ethnic cleansing, rioting for the sake of rioting, blaming colonialists, holding Mugabe's hand etc.

[PsiKik]

Update:
Now there are reports that people are being paid to start these attacks.
There are many theories flying around as to who is behind it all. Zimbabweans will say it's Mugabe, Mugabe will say it's the UK, Mbeki might blame the Democratic Alliance, or the Zuma faction.

Geez ... I'm growing tired of this shit.

If this is orchestrated violence, who benefits the most?

<possible conspiracy theory>
Could this be a plot to undermine Mbeki?
The violence and his lack of action could be used as part of a claim that he is unfit to govern and must step down in favor of Zuma?
</ possible conspiracy theory>

[RottenApple]

If this is orchestrated violence, who benefits the most?

<possible conspiracy theory>
Could this be a plot to undermine Mbeki?
The violence and his lack of action could be used as part of a claim that he is unfit to govern and must step down in favor of Zuma?
</ possible conspiracy theory>

OR

Seen as the mob is mostly Zulu and they were singing Jacob Zuma's 'machine gun' song during their demonstrations..... is it an Mbeki driven plot to undermine Zuma (a zulu).... and cast doubt on his leadership.

Or

is it a third party plot to split the ANC into two factions?

[Oso Mocoso]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/08/in_pictures_violence_in_reiger_park/img/1.jpg

Xenophobic violence in South Africa, in pictures.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/08/in_pictures_violence_in_reiger_park/html/1.stm

A long-winded blog talks about the events:

http://www.abahlali.org/node/3582

The NY Times coverage:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/19/world/africa/19safrica.html?_r=1&fta=y&oref=slogin

[RottenApple]

That's a powerful image Oso Mocoso.

The talk on the street is that these latest events are actually kind of a good thing.

We have the most porous borders in Africa. People from all over the continent are trying to get in here. I've personally met people who have traveled by foot from places as far away as Uganda.

Our GDP is just not big enough to support an entire continent.

Having Mbeki as a president is like not having a president at all.... his refusal to deal with issues and to turn a blind eye to problems (Zimbabwe, Aids, crime, immigrants) has finally caught up with him. Now the whole thing has exploded and the problem is dealing with itself.

Thank god Mbeki is out next year...and in spite of the negative things we can say about Zuma, most of us are willing to give him a chance.