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View Full Version : Stoicism... an ancient philosophy more deserving than christianity



misutii
28 Feb 2005, 09:08 AM
as many of you may have noticed....i'm on a topic binge....and yes procrastination is again to blame.
Regardless, recently i have been reading Marcus Aurelius' "Meditations"

For those that don't know, Marcus Aurelius was the last "Good" Roman Emperor. He was born in the 120s and ruled Rome from 161 to 189, dying at the age of 59. To any of you who have seen Gladiator.... Marcus Aurelius was the wise old Emperor killed by his son Commodus (in reality he did have a son named Commodus.... who was an utterly awful Emperor.... however his son did not kill him)

Anyways Marcus Aurelius was a Stoic. Stoicism was a religion in the Ancient World, originating in Greece, it was popular among the Roman Nobility.
I'm including a quote from the introduction of this book because i can't think of a better way to say it, but Stoicism is in my opinion the best religion of the ancient world because it is more of a philosophy than a religion. It is not organized, it simply has followers. I think it would appeal to INTPs because it stresses not reacting blindly with emotions. Basically it dictates that everything that happens has happened before, and will happen again, so we are helpless to change events and must instead accept them

i bolded the parts that i especially wish you to read. ask about anything you might be interested in that you don't understand, for clarification: "LOGOS" can be definied differently by different Stoics, some believe it to be God, some believe it to be Reason, some believe it to be both, regardless however, it is the logos that drives the universe.



Stoicism
"Stoicism, having flowed through some five hundred years of Greek and Roman History, is not so much a single systematic doctrine as a winding intellectual current. Arising and flourishing amidst the uncertanties of the Hellenistic domain of the third century BC 0 a tune if political and social upheaval following the deaths of Aristotle and Alexander- Stoicism stressed the search for inner peace and ethical certainty despite the apparent chaos of the external world by emulating in one's personal conduct the underlying orderliness and lawfulness of nature.

...Several of the key elements of the early Stoics emege clearly... Dividing philosophy in physics, logic, and ethics, they sought to unify theory and practice an a comprehensive cosmology. In contrast to Plato and Aristotle, for whom the highest realities were spiritual or ideational, the Stoics held that the essence of reality was material, arguing that an incorporeal soul could not direct the activities of a corporeal body. Unlike the purposeless dead matter of modern variants of materialism, this elemental 'stuff' of the universe is an ever-living creative fire, a divinity, in fact, that forms all life; physics and theology converge in a materialist pantheism. This 'stuff' has several names: God, Zeus, creative fire, ether, the word for reason (logos), order, law of destiny, fate.
Through varying degrees of tension or tonicity, the primal fire spawns the various things of the world in cycles; in each periodos or magnus annus it gradually separates into four elements (water, earthly fire, air, and earth); eventually conflagaration again reduces all to the elemental fire, which then expands into the universe once again, and so on for eternity, each cycle an exact repitition of the last.

While avowing the divine presence of all things, Zeno (the first stoic) disdained the panoply of institutional religion, rejecting temples and rituals and stressing rather the worship of God through inner affirmation and outward virtue. The Stoic discovers the model for his virtuous conductin in studying the laws of nature; just as each object, plant, and animal serves its fated role in the larger order, so the human strives to steer his actions in accordance with his unique power, reason, his inner mirror of the "logos" (reason) that governs the universe.

By focusing on those things that are within his power - his own will and perception - and detaching himself from the things that are not- health, death, the actions of others, natural disasters and so on- he attains the inner peace of the wise and just man. This cultivated detachment (apatheia) achieved through disciplined self-restraint and moderation applies as well to the worldly allures of sensual indulgence, power and fame, which the Stoic abjures not from puritanical repugnance, but from his concern to free the soul for undistracted service to the logos (reason).

Apatheia (detachment) does not equal apathy, however. The logos of Stoicism is not a fate to be passively acknowledged but a spiritual potential to be actively won through intellectual and practical effort. Moreover, the universality of reason enjoins a social consciousness that embraces the just life not only for oneself but for all humanity under the "fatherhood of God". Trabscending the parochial confines of class, tribe and nationality, the logos obliges each 'citizen of the universe' to help in building.. a cosmopolis that would be the very image of the rationally ordered physical world.

The social consciousness of Stoicism is not, however, a summons to the activism of mass movements. Civic virtue is a mirage unless anchored in the inner virtue of each citizen; for the Stoic the best antidote to outer turmoil is inner peace. In Marcus's words, "How much trouble he avoids who does not look to see what his neighbour says or does or thinks, but only to what he does himself, that it may be just and pure." And elsewhere he writes, "For nowhere either with more quiet or freedom from trouble does a man retire than into his own soul, particularly when he has within him such thoughts that by looking into them he is immediately in perfect tranquility."

Thus does the Stoic define himself as a rational being in the face of all that beggars rationality. In Shakespeare's words, "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Marcus, quoting the Cynic Monimus; puts it even more succinctly: "All is opinion." """""""""""""""""""""

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So for those still with me...... what do you think?
I find that Stoicism is clearly the religion of ancient learned man, whereas christianity, relying on false hopes is quite obviously the religion of the ancient peasant. my studies seem to demonstrate this... unfortunately it was the peasant that would prevail, Stoicism was too passive and individualistic to appeal to the masses.

Shai Gar
28 Feb 2005, 09:24 AM
i used to try out stoicism. i had it going good for a while. but then i started to learn and i became indignant. stoicism is strong though.

Philo
28 Feb 2005, 12:40 PM
There are certainly aspects of Stoicism that are intriguing. The idea of detaching yourself, at least in part, from the circumstances of the situation would allow one to view it more objectively (using the term loosely) and react more calmly in an emergency. It would also allow one to think through an emotionally charged situation and come to a resolution without conflict.

However, I disagree with some of the things the intro claims is not within our power: in particular, I'm thinking of health. To a large extent that is under our control by the kind and quality of food we eat, the amount of rest we get, etc.

I also disagree with the idea of "all is opinion". If that's the case, then concepts such as slavery and concentration camps, among other things, would be considered ok. From this perspective, there seems to be a greater good that is beyond the Stoic materialistic ideal.

Just my early morning $0.02.

heeroyuy
28 Feb 2005, 04:57 PM
Disclaimer: I'm very very tired (though no longer sick), so this post may seem somewhat incoherent, please excuse it.

The problem, for me, with a certain "philosophy" or "religion" appealing fully and in itself are that I don't like to label myself. Usually I call myself a moral relativist and an existentialist, for instance, but neither of these quite apply, I simply incorporate aspects of them into myself. Each idea has it's own flavor, even if I totally disagree with it, and that is why I love ideas.

In any event, excuse the short rant on ideas. Stoicism is embodied partially or fully within a lot of other philosophies nearly implicitly, as they require one to take on the same mentality.

As far as such things as "absolute truth", having stated above that I am a moral relativist, there are no such absolute ethical or moral truths to me, concentration camps are "righteous" from one cultural point of view, and wrong from another. From my own (from a descriptive ethical point of view) "right and wrong," indeed things like concentration camps are wrong. For me, an important thing to ask oneself before saying something is an absolute right or wrong is if I had been raised in another society, and found out everything I know now in that society, would I still believe it?

Stoicism is quite interesting, and I think describes (as you mentioned) how alot of we INTPs act naturally to begin with, though it describes it in a bit more...structured and "extreme" way, as many of us practice what it states haphazardly without knowing.

2hype
28 Feb 2005, 05:06 PM
I just ordered a book on Stoicism a few days ago. I like the part in bold: ""How much trouble he avoids who does not look to see what his neighbour says or does or thinks, but only to what he does himself, that it may be just and pure." The reason I became interested in Stoicism is that I was thinking about Admiral Jim Stockdale, who is the only person I've ever heard my father refer to as a hero. He was a POW during the Vietnam war for eight years or something, and he was beaten and tortured and he never lost faith that he would prevail. He studied philosophy, and Stoicism and Epictetus are often mentioned when people are talking about Stockdale.

MyOwnNeighbor
3 Mar 2005, 10:24 PM
Hmm, I wish I had been aquainted with this thinking some time ago. I've been practicing Buddhism for a little while, and found it mostly because of the qualities of Stoicism found concurrent with the cultureless Buddha. It will be something to think about.

Sir Isaac Lime
3 Mar 2005, 10:30 PM
To make sure I understand correctly, stoeism basically relies on the "clay pot" model of the universe, which states that everything is a mold made of the same substance?

synagogue
20 Apr 2011, 01:21 AM
If I were to identify myself with one philosophy, it would perhaps be Stoicism. "Meditations" is one of the best books you'll ever read, with "Discourses" not too far behind. It reminds me of a Western translation of the "Eastern tradition."

Hotdoh
20 Apr 2011, 03:34 AM
Ah, I was just about to start a similar thread comparing and contrasting Daoism with Christianity. I didn't even finish reading the OP yet; I'm going to go do that now and see how our two preferred philosophies compare (I don't know anything about Stoicism (yet), but I have this idea of a stone statue being unaffected by detriments for some reason).

EDIT: This seems a lot like Daoism! I'm excited. Have you read the Tao Te Ching? I really like this version (there are billions upon trillions of translations).
http://www.taoteching.org

YHWH
20 Apr 2011, 03:52 AM
stoicism is the boring man's philosophy.

synagogue
20 Apr 2011, 04:11 AM
Ah, I was just about to start a similar thread comparing and contrasting Daoism with Christianity. I didn't even finish reading the OP yet; I'm going to go do that now and see how our two preferred philosophies compare (I don't know anything about Stoicism (yet), but I have this idea of a stone statue being unaffected by detriments for some reason).

EDIT: This seems a lot like Daoism! I'm excited. Have you read the Tao Te Ching? I really like this version (there a billions upon trillions of translations).
http://www.taoteching.org

I was about to make a post in the atheist essay thread saying that how reflecting on the exchanges in there (in addition to talking with my parents and confirming to myself that they don't even quite know why they believe the things they do) has just about fully wiggled me free from the religious programming I was subjected to early in life.

Yes, the Tao te Ching has impacted me a huge deal. I keep a well-worn copy on my nightstand. I can see how its wisdom would appeal to you, especially as it's completely unnecessary to embrace the notion of a "higher power" to be able to appreciate its message.

It's really a lie to call myself a stoic, I just wanted to draw attention to the thread :P. (I mean, I definitely believe in its principles, but I would never limit myself by self-identifying with any particular school of thought).

I think the truth is the truth, and it has been interpreted differently throughout different cultures. Some would call it the Perennial Philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perennial_philosophy). That's what I believe in. You can find its themes in Taoism, Stoicism, Platonic thought, Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, etc. etc. All of these traditions might not agree on every point but there are recurring themes common to all that I would personally identify as something like The Truth. I don't really know where I'm going with this paragraph (also I'm stoned), I just wanted to try and clarify my own outlook.

Anyways yes, I would highly recommend you read "Meditations (http://books.google.com/books?id=eoxOAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=meditations+marcus+aurelius&hl=en&ei=CgyvTeH2FMnf0QGgqNDGCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false)" by Marcus Aurelius if you have an appreciation for Taoism. If you get a minute, lemme know what you think once you make some progress into it.

Hotdoh
20 Apr 2011, 05:44 PM
Anyways yes, I would highly recommend you read "Meditations (http://books.google.com/books?id=eoxOAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=meditations+marcus+aurelius&hl=en&ei=CgyvTeH2FMnf0QGgqNDGCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false)" by Marcus Aurelius if you have an appreciation for Taoism. If you get a minute, lemme know what you think once you make some progress into it.

As I said a bit ago in that other thread, I've already got two books going on at the moment. I will certainly check out Meditations at some point soon.


I was about to make a post in the atheist essay thread saying that how reflecting on the exchanges in there (in addition to talking with my parents and confirming to myself that they don't even quite know why they believe the things they do) has just about fully wiggled me free from the religious programming I was subjected to early in life.

(EDIT: Banana deleted.)

Somebody has to kick Scorpion religion in the balls, and it's always nice to have Liu Kang intelligent people backing you up. It really is sad that these things are fought by those filled with dirty and underhanded tricks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xfwmA-V__k

...I'm pissed I didn't make the individual results of the poll public.

Walalaaa
20 Apr 2011, 09:11 PM
I was about to make a post in the atheist essay thread saying that how reflecting on the exchanges in there (in addition to talking with my parents and confirming to myself that they don't even quite know why they believe the things they do) has just about fully wiggled me free from the religious programming I was subjected to early in life.

Yay! Another (de)convert.

Hotdoh
21 Apr 2011, 03:35 AM
Yay! Another (de)convert.

That's what I thought too...


Yeah. Well, just to clarify, I still certainly believe in God. I just realize that I don't need an intermediate agency to mediate my relationship with Him.

synagogue
21 Apr 2011, 03:47 AM
I could never be a deconvert because I was never a "convert" in the first place. I was indoctrinated as a child. Hotdoh I was meaning to pass on a compliment but I'm gonna have to retract it b/c you apparently awarded yourself waaay too much credit, there.

I have my own ideas about the nature of the universe and I'm completely secure in the ways I've arrived at them. So please, for the love of Christ, don't try and hold my hand and walk me down your path. I did atheism in middle school.

What I was meaning about the exchanges in your thread, was that I appreciated you pointing out that my childhood indoctrination was probably the main contributor of some of my end-of-the-world fears that would creep in from time to time. I've had the same thought since I was about 8, but something about that exchange finally made it fully resonate and help cement my own conclusions.

Also, please never associate me with that banana smiley again. I've avoided that piece of shit far too long for you to spoil it now. :D

Zephyrus055
21 Apr 2011, 07:16 AM
As I said a bit ago in that other thread, I've already got two books going on at the moment. I will certainly check out Meditations at some point soon.

Would you please stop reviving dead threads? I mean no offense to you, it is just that it's very annoying.

Thanks.

synagogue
21 Apr 2011, 07:26 AM
^^ I revived this thread, and I don't really see anything wrong with it. If you don't want to participate, ignore it (no offense). Not everyone got to see it the first time around; some of us weren't here in '05. There's plenty of "dead" topics here with great conversation potential left. Though apparently this isn't one of them.

Hotdoh
21 Apr 2011, 04:56 PM
Well then I'm sorry systembust; I misunderstood you.

Could you really expect me to have read that passage any other way?

synagogue
21 Apr 2011, 09:53 PM
You're right, looking back. My apologies if that sounded prickly. As an INTP though, I feel compelled to stand up for, and clarify my stance on things - as I've invested my entire life into my own views. Sure you can understand that.

Hotdoh
22 Apr 2011, 07:06 PM
You're right, looking back. My apologies if that sounded prickly. As an INTP though, I feel compelled to stand up for, and clarify my stance on things - as I've invested my entire life into my own views. Sure you can understand that.

I do understand. I'm glad we seem to be back on good ground again. :)

synagogue
22 Apr 2011, 07:36 PM
Haha. To be clear, this is what I'd taken issue with, from the religious essay thread:


Yeah. Well, just to clarify, I still certainly believe in God. I just realize that I don't need an intermediate agency to mediate my relationship with Him.


Eh, it's a step forward, good luck with the next one!


I hate to even post that, but without context, the posts above make me look like a total prick. :D

Ptah
22 Apr 2011, 07:40 PM
And people call Objectivism outmoded.

:facepalm:

Hotdoh
23 Apr 2011, 05:44 AM
And people call Objectivism outmoded.

:facepalm:

I don't know what you mean by this.