George W. Bush's legacy (stay civil, please)

[Oso Mocoso]

So, his presidency is almost over, and I've heard people making comparisons to Harding and Buchanan. So, maybe it's not looking so good? I find the Buchanan comparison a little bit unfair. Bush may have cocked some things up, but he didn't have a bloody civil war break out on his watch.

Anyway, I was trying to think of a way his legacy could transform in the future in a way where it would redeem him in hindsight. Think of it as an excerpt from a possible future history book.

George W. Bush - the Great Globalizer

Under his watch, the U.S. currency lost a lot of its former rigidity, and foreign people started buying our exports in huge quantity. America's iPods started flying off the shelves, people already loved our movies, television shows, porn, software, video games, Snoop Dogg CDs etc. and now they could buy even more of them! Bush came along at a time when commercial supply chains had just boomed global, and he was the man with the vision of how to position America in such a way that we could take advantage when commercial markets boomed global.

How did he accomplish this? By a carefully thought out plan to reduce the value of the American currency to attract buyers for American goods and services. At the time, this plan had a lot of doubters and naysayers. What great man didn't have those? It's true that President Bush was never known as a highly polished public speaker, which didn't help.

Discuss.

[mippus]

I can only speak as a foreigner, but I will remember him as the president that filled the global insecurity vacuum that existed after the cold war, as the president that ignored the importance of UN in declaring war in Iraq and the president who got elected on a very doubtful basis.
On a personal level, he helped me in losing my naieve, idealistic belief in democracy.

[mad99001]

Consolidating power, personalizing profit, socializing risk.

[djm]

So, his presidency is almost over, and I've heard people making comparisons to Harding and Buchanan. So, maybe it's not looking so good? I find the Buchanan comparison a little bit unfair. Bush may have cocked some things up, but he didn't have a bloody civil war break out on his watch.

Tell that to an Iraqi ;)


George W. Bush - the Great Globalizer

Under his watch, the U.S. currency lost a lot of its former rigidity, and foreign people started buying our exports in huge quantity. America's iPods started flying off the shelves, people already loved our movies, television shows, porn, software, video games, Snoop Dogg CDs etc. and now they could buy even more of them! Bush came along at a time when commercial supply chains had just boomed global, and he was the man with the vision of how to position America in such a way that we could take advantage when commercial markets boomed global.

I fail to see how facilitating the export of that shite (our movies, television shows, porn, software, video games, Snoop Dogg CDs etc.) around the world is a redeeming quality.

I dont think Bush is any worse than any of the US presidents in my lifetime, but that is damning him with faint praise.

The current potential economic collapse could go down in history as the onset of the collapse of the US economic hedgemony.

[Noses]

I feel Dr. Rice is going to be mentioned over and over and over again in the future, as she is the "First Black Woman" to be in a position of a lot power. Not to mention General Powell.

9/11 will be mentioned, of course. Katrina and the inadequate governmental agencies will be mentioned also.

No Child Left Behind and the Patriot Act will be judged and labeled as successes and or failures, depending on where we go. I also feel that he will be criticized for not being "global" enough as the internet shrinks us and makes everyone into citizens of the world.

[Rhu]

No Child Left Behind and the Patriot Act will be judged and labeled as successes and or failures, depending on where we go.
The headquarters of the US Dept of Ed had these red schoolhouse archways labeled with "No Child Left Behind" over the entrances to the building.

They removed them about a month ago.

[Chaselation]

I think he may be responsible for Americans loosing the perception as the greatest country in the world as a birthright. The modern day US has been riding grampa's coat tails for far too long.

Even the religious right doesn't like being lied to and will only put so much of the faith reserved for god in politicians. I'm not sure the lock on these votes is broken but it's been damaged.

The US (IMO) in general seems to be looking more objectively at itself as a whole. They're suppose to be the 1st nation of the world but Katrina happened for the world to see. Viet Nam happened again? The world doesn't love us?

I know these are generalities that don't apply to all Americans but that's the vibe I get from just south of the boarder in Canada.

[Noses]

The headquarters of the US Dept of Ed had these red schoolhouse archways labeled with "No Child Left Behind" over the entrances to the building.

They removed them about a month ago.

Can you tell me why that has anything to do with the impact of the act? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[Karl]

In my AP World History class they said we were supposed to know George W Bush for the War on Terror and something else, maybe invading Iraq.

Also, there's a pretty good article about Bush available here. (http://www.theonion.com/content/news/bush_begins_preparations_for)

Anyway, I think Bush is going to be blamed for civil rights violations and economic problems, whether not that's fair. (I'd argue that those things are bigger than George Bush) But the war on terror and invading Iraq will probably do it. Then again, people don't seem to remember that Reagan declared the first war on terror, so who knows.

[Thevenin]

I fail to see how, in the future, Bush can look anything but even worse than he does today. Only in retrospect will we realize what a disaster Bush has been. In addition to the tragic human dimension and the perversion of American values, Bush will have been responsible for squandering up to $3 Trillion, and all this for a totally unnecessary war that was based on lies. The story is yet unfinished, but when it is, it will be nothing but a debacle of historic proportions for which generations of Americans will pay heavily.

[Oso Mocoso]

Tell that to an Iraqi ;)

Haven't you been listening to the Pentagon? There isn't a civil war going on in Iraq. They're not organized enough for there to be coherent "sides" in a proper civil war. Most of those people don't even have their own flags. How could it possibly be a civil war?


I fail to see how facilitating the export of that shite (our movies, television shows, porn, software, video games, Snoop Dogg CDs etc.) around the world is a redeeming quality.

Well, think what you like but it's a capitalist country. And tons of people buy that shite. Every time a do-rag wearing foreign teenager with baggy pants hands over his hard-earned currency for a Snoop Dogg tshirt, it's helping America. Just thinking about it stirs a surge of patriotic pride in my heart.


The current potential economic collapse could go down in history as the onset of the collapse of the US economic hedgemony.

Thanks for believing in us, DJM. I always knew you English types were all right.


I think he may be responsible for Americans loosing the perception as the greatest country in the world as a birthright. The modern day US has been riding grampa's coat tails for far too long.


I'm going to have to disagree with you that Americans ever had that as a birthright. Although, some of the more obnoxious ones among us may have believed they did.


Even the religious right doesn't like being lied to and will only put so much of the faith reserved for god in politicians. I'm not sure the lock on these votes is broken but it's been damaged.

But as the Democratic primary seems to be turning into a disaster, chances look very good that our next president will be a Republican. I don't think the American political right wing has been damaged as much as you think.

[Ferrus]

So, his presidency is almost over, and I've heard people making comparisons to Harding and Buchanan. So, maybe it's not looking so good? I find the Buchanan comparison a little bit unfair. Bush may have cocked some things up, but he didn't have a bloody civil war break out on his watch.
Hoover surely?>

[mgb]

I guess he put Crawford, Texas on the map. They have to be happy about that.

[Oso Mocoso]

Hoover surely?>

From what I recall, Hoover was pro-regulation but unable to build enough support to push through his own policies which might have been able to curtail the Great Depression. He's generally thought of as a pretty mediocre President by most historians, but not an especially bad one. My personal feelings are that Bush would rate about the same, maybe a little lower. I just think comparing him to James "Let's not do anything about the South seceding" Buchanan is too harsh.

[Lethal Sage]

Why did we want the South again?

[AllAboutSoul]

I fail to see how, in the future, Bush can look anything but even worse than he does today. Only in retrospect will we realize what a disaster Bush has been. In addition to the tragic human dimension and the perversion of American values, Bush will have been responsible for squandering up to $3 Trillion, and all this for a totally unnecessary war that was based on lies. The story is yet unfinished, but when it is, it will be nothing but a debacle of historic proportions for which generations of Americans will pay heavily.



:highfive:

[Oso Mocoso]

Why did we want the South again?

Lincoln, one of the most visionary U.S. Presidents, knew that in the future we would need it for strategic fried chicken purposes. Also, collards.

[Oso Mocoso]

I fail to see how, in the future, Bush can look anything but even worse than he does today.

I really doubt that. Now when you see him looking like a jackass on TV and saying ridiculous things when he's representing your country, it's hard not to respond negatively to that. He looks pretty bad. Once he's out of the spotlight he won't be pouring salt in the wounds all the time.


Only in retrospect will we realize what a disaster Bush has been. In addition to the tragic human dimension and the perversion of American values, Bush will have been responsible for squandering up to $3 Trillion, and all this for a totally unnecessary war that was based on lies.

Thevenin, think about the Presidency of John F. Kennedy. He bungled the Bay of Pigs Invasion, and kicked off Vietnam. Certainly those aren't the things people remember. And if you want to argue that Kennedy didn't really start Vietnam, then Johnson certainly did. He is also considered by most historians to have been a rather good President.


The story is yet unfinished, but when it is, it will be nothing but a debacle of historic proportions for which generations of Americans will pay heavily.

Yes, a lot of people died, but even Vietnam wasn't really a "debacle of historic proportions for which generations of Americans will pay heavily".

[airjaw]

Incompetence. Utter, sheer, incomprehensible incompetence. Arrogance.

I used to be against the Iraq war but now I'm harboring some hope taht something good can come out of it

the sad thing is, the bush administration did such a horrible job. they made the worst possible deicsions they could possibly make.
If a more competent administration was in power, Iraq wouldn't even be an issue.

[C.J.Woolf]

The USA's Kaiser Wilhelm II. (http://whiskeybar.org/archives/001223.html)

[Oso Mocoso]

Incompetence. Utter, sheer, incomprehensible incompetence. Arrogance.

...

the sad thing is, the bush administration did such a horrible job. they made the worst possible deicsions they could possibly make.
If a more competent administration was in power, Iraq wouldn't even be an issue.

Yeah. Great perspective there. You've really managed to understand larger historical trends.

I've noticed that in this thread, the Europeans seem to be capable of responding to the issue in a more sane, rational way. In talking about politics, it seems like Americans really subscribe to one of the two camps our media likes to set up. It's either "I am a totally loyal Republican" or "Bush is the embodiment of evil incarnate". Which is bullshit. I guess INTPs seem to subscribe to the latter group.

Seriously, think about past leaders of our country and the choices that they've made. Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_States_Presidents

Okay, actually read about some of the decisions that really crappy Presidents have made. Then, citing the achievements of the real losers among the pack tell me that Bush has been more incompetent than some of these losers. If you consider some of the bad Presidents we've had, Bush's mistakes pale by comparison. He's been mediocre, sure. But not awful considering the competition. Seriously, it would be pretty hard for a President to be worse for America than James Buchanan, Ulysses Grant, or Warren Harding. Bush doesn't even come close.

And Ulysses Grant seems to have been redeemed by history for his jaw-dropping failures as President by his success as a General in the American Civil War.

[MacGuffin]

I really doubt that. Now when you see him looking like a jackass on TV and saying ridiculous things when he's representing your country, it's hard not to respond negatively to that. He looks pretty bad. Once he's out of the spotlight he won't be pouring salt in the wounds all the time.

I think Bush is smarter than he's given credit for, and don't think he's anything close to a moron. I also don't really care about how he talks, so his public persona doesn't really have much of an influence on my perception of his adminstration. I just look at the failures results.


Thevenin, think about the Presidency of John F. Kennedy. He bungled the Bay of Pigs Invasion, and kicked off Vietnam. Certainly those aren't the things people remember. And if you want to argue that Kennedy didn't really start Vietnam, then Johnson certainly did. He is also considered by most historians to have been a rather good President.

I've always thought Johnson to be a failure on pretty much every thing except civil rights.

I certainly remember JFK for his failures too, but he also did some good things in his short time in office. What has Bush done well?

I like to ask Bush supporters, "quick, name one great success by the Bush administration!" I get the most slack-jawed, blank look in response.


Yes, a lot of people died, but even Vietnam wasn't really a "debacle of historic proportions for which generations of Americans will pay heavily".

I think the Vietnam failure played heavily into the neocon's mentality. To them, we didn't get beat, we gave it away. And the failure to learn the lessons of Vietnam is why we are in Iraq today.

[Oso Mocoso]

I think Bush is smarter than he's given credit for, and don't think he's anything close to a moron.

I agree with you.



I've always thought Johnson to be a failure on pretty much every thing except civil rights.

I agree with you here too, but I think civil rights are very important.


I certainly remember JFK for his failures too, but he also did some good things in his short time in office. What has Bush done well?

I agree on Kennedy. I think some of Bush's initiatives are long term ventures, and they may play out well in the future if they're given time to come to fruition. I don't think he's yet had any short-term successes.


I like to ask Bush supporters, "quick, name one great success by the Bush administration!" I get the most slack-jawed, blank look in response.

That's because Bush has yet to have any great success. That's not to say that his actions will play out to be great failures in the future.


I think the Vietnam failure played heavily into the neocon's mentality. To them, we didn't get beat, we gave it away. And the failure to learn the lessons of Vietnam is why we are in Iraq today.

Maybe. I don't wholly agree with you on this. I think Iraq is all about how addicted to oil our country is. We need oil like a junkie needs heroin, and our country will do anything to get it. Iraq has tons of oil, and if we need it enough, we can probably make them our bitch. I recognize that represents abandoning a lot of American principles, but it's expedient if you're the President. Did Vietnam have any particular resource we needed?

[MacGuffin]

We agree on so much! Civil rights was hugely important, but I don't know how much credit to give to LBJ.


That's because Bush has yet to have any great success. That's not to say that his actions will play out to be great failures in the future.

We shall see.


Maybe. I don't wholly agree with you on this. I think Iraq is all about how addicted to oil our country is. We need oil like a junkie needs heroin, and our country will do anything to get it. Iraq has tons of oil, and if we need it enough, we can probably make them our bitch. I recognize that represents abandoning a lot of American principles, but it's expedient if you're the President.

That was half the reason, the other half is there were true believers in the administration that really thought we could remake the Middle East in our image starting with Iraq (see Wolfowitz, Paul).


Did Vietnam have any particular resource we needed?

Dead commies.

[C.J.Woolf]

Civil rights was hugely important, but I don't know how much credit to give to LBJ.
Give LBJ a lot of credit. The Civil Rights Act was a clear case of doing the right thing even when it hurt; it was politically courageous. When LBJ signed it, he famously said that he had lost the South for a generation. He was wrong; it's been two generations so far.

[V Profane]

I think he'll be remembered for turning America from a country that people were a bit snooty and sarcastic about, to one that people hold substantial hatred for.

[djm]

Haven't you been listening to the Pentagon? There isn't a civil war going on in Iraq. They're not organized enough for there to be coherent "sides" in a proper civil war. Most of those people don't even have their own flags. How could it possibly be a civil war?

Since when did I have to listen to the Pentagons analysis, I have my own view on it. The is it or isn't it a civil war argument is largely a semantic one. The people caught up in a large scale conflict between various ethnic and idealogical causes suffer the exact same way regardless of wether it is called a civil war or something else. Bush is partly culpable for the situation.


Well, think what you like but it's a capitalist country. And tons of people buy that shite. Every time a do-rag wearing foreign teenager with baggy pants hands over his hard-earned currency for a Snoop Dogg tshirt, it's helping America. Just thinking about it stirs a surge of patriotic pride in my heart.

Whats a do-rag? sounds horrid. Anyway as a non-American the USA is a competitor, and if it's goods suplant those made in my own country I do not see it as a good thing.

Loyalties aside whats good for an economy and what's good in itself are two different things in my book anyway.


Thanks for believing in us, DJM. I always knew you English types were all right.

I didn't see you yanks shedding any tears when you displaced the English economic hedgemony. As it happens it could hit me worse than most as someone that runs a listed company and has all his wealth tied up in the LSE. My shares are going up strongly at the moment though.

[MacGuffin]

Give LBJ a lot of credit. The Civil Rights Act was a clear case of doing the right thing even when it hurt; it was politically courageous. When LBJ signed it, he famously said that he had lost the South for a generation. He was wrong; it's been two generations so far.

Then I shall give him credit.

[Oso Mocoso]

We agree on so much!

Oh MacGuffin. ;)


Civil rights was hugely important, but I don't know how much credit to give to LBJ.

Really, I think his stand on civil rights defined the man's presidency. If there was one thing he was going to get right during his time in office, he made the right choice.


That was half the reason, the other half is there were true believers in the administration that really thought we could remake the Middle East in our image starting with Iraq (see Wolfowitz, Paul).

I think there were many different groups that agreed the war in Iraq was a good idea, but they could not come to a neat consensus on why. I think the true believers were only one camp among many. Aside from oil, some other reasons for going to war were to take out Saddam Hussein, and to take Israel's side in a regional conflict with Iran. I don't think they did a good job of positioning the war to the public.

[quote]Dead commies.

Basically a completely pointless war then?

[Thevenin]

Basically a completely pointless war then?

Yes.

Not only was it pointless, it was stupid. A non-country like Iraq, invented in the 1920's by the British, is filled with inter-ethnic and inter-religious hatred between the three main groups, who never got along. The only thing that kept Iraq together was the vicious brutality of Saddam Hussein. Any "state" that is kept together only through such horror is no state at all. Iraq was once a bulwark against Iran, and by invading Iraq, the US gave the gift of regional dominance to Iran. Iran couldn't have asked for more. Bush gave them the middle east on a silver platter. Rather stupid of Bush, huh?

If we had stayed out of Iraq, we would have saved what ultimately will be $3 Trillion of US tax money, the lives of four thousand Americans (so far) and countless Iraqis and others, and kept Iran under control without the US having to do anything but rattle our sabers now and then. As far as terrorists are concerned, there were never any in Iraq until after the US invasion. So the US is down $3 Trillion, Iran in ascendant in the Persian Gulf, and the terrorists have one more failed state in which to flourish. So much for the "Decider." What a moron.

["?"]

Oh you asked to stay civil... then never mind. I do wonder what others think if McCain could actually pull off a win? Clearly his connection to the party makes his chances extremely low, at least from past experience.

[Oso Mocoso]

Oh you asked to stay civil... then never mind. I do wonder what others think if McCain could actually pull off a win? Clearly his connection to the party makes his chances extremely low, at least from past experience.

I don't think so. I think his chances are quite good. I think the Republicans would greatly prefer for Obama to win the primary. They will likely be able to Swiftboat the hell out of him during an election. The Democrats have to play nice on their internal struggle. Hillary would be a tougher fight.

McCain is a strong candidate in his own right, though. He's a real war hero type. The U.S. loves to elect guys like that.

[thod]

McCain is a strong candidate in his own right, though. He's a real war hero type. The U.S. loves to elect guys like that.


He will also be 72 at the start of his term. When you cant win, the good candidates stay out of the race and wait for the next election. Old man McCain was on the news yesterday talking about Al Queda (Sunni) coming out of Iran (Shi'ite) before his advisers corrected him. I was sure I was picking up signs of Alzheimer's in him. It doesn't matter how good his resume is, a president with lowered mental faculties doesn't cut it. Obama or Clinton will run rings around him in the televised debates where you have to think and react quickly to attacks from the other side.

[meanlittlechimp]

He will also be 72 at the start of his term. When you cant win, the good candidates stay out of the race and wait for the next election. Old man McCain was on the news yesterday talking about Al Queda (Sunni) coming out of Iran (Shi'ite) before his advisers corrected him. I was sure I was picking up signs of Alzheimer's in him. It doesn't matter how good his resume is, a president with lowered mental faculties doesn't cut it. Obama or Clinton will run rings around him in the televised debates where you have to think and react quickly to attacks from the other side.

I think Obama would run rings around him, not as sure about Hillary (she's much more stiff and scripted). The press (that cover him) loves him apparently, because he bullshits with them every single day on the campaign trail, and is surprisingly off the cuff and spontaneous when dealing with them. Read some article about it a while back. I'll post it later if I find it - was fairly interesting. I think it was in the New Yorker, but a lot of there stuff isn't online.

[Oso Mocoso]

The press (that cover him) loves him apparently, because he bullshits with them every single day on the campaign trail, and is surprisingly off the cuff and spontaneous when dealing with them.

This is because the Republican character assassins haven't put the knives to him yet. The Dems have been handling him with kid gloves, and he's there holding hands with this crazy preacher who says things like "God damn America!" The Karl Roves of the GOP would torpedo Obama no problem. Hillary would be a tougher mark.

[dubbeltop]

George W. Bush's legacy (stay civil, please)

He is neither a president or a statesmen I wish to remember....Great leaders demand great respect.....

He got the friendly smile but it is empty...he preaches religion but seeks the death penalty...big oil is his buddy and the war in iraq is not his concern because he doesn't care......

He only cares that the world thinks of him as a good son/father/etc and he still tries to prove himself by going around the world spreading peace (on the camera) while lobbying for certain (southern) corporations around the world ($$$$$)...

He is part of the business elite and he well never be my friend and no I won't even dine with him in the white house....

I had good memories of Bill Clinton and look forward to Barrack Obama as president of the United States....

[V Profane]

crazy preacher who says things like "God damn America!"

ITV Evening News bleeps out 'damn' (http://www.melonfarmers.co.uk/tp.htm#Goddamn_Censors)


During the ITV early evening news, there was a trailer for a breaking news item about the pastor of the church attended by Barack Obama having come out with some controversial remarks (basically saying America had asked for 9/11).

In particular he was shown saying "God BLEEP America". Naturally, I assumed that he'd said "fuck".

:grin:

[g_vartan]

[must....try....very....hard....to...stay...civil....but it would so much more fun I didn't...sigh]

[taking a deep breath...okay]

I am currently providing strategic business advice to one of this country's key research agencies and under this administration:

- Innovation has been stifled.
- Research findings has been "edited'.
- Funding to important, strategic projects has been slashed.
- Red tape has increased.
- Independence has been compromised.
- Collaboration among national and global partners has decreased.

One of George W. Bush's main campaign platforms was his (supposed) ability to leverage his private sector executive experience into the government world in order to improve the performance and impact of governmental activities and investments. Instead, many of this country's top scientists, policy makers, and political strategists would agree that we have gone backwards. In the agency that I am working with, we are already helping them complete transition planning because they do not want to be in the same position that they are currently at now. They can't wait till change to occur (as most of America...)

What is waiting for our next president is astounding - in terms of our economy, the war, our educational system, foreign policy....someone needs to do a major clean up on the mess that what dubya will leave behind.

George W. Bush's legacy: one step forward, two steps back...a presidency that was really led by Cheney....oh boy, don't get me started on that foo...

[quantumzero]

George W...as in widowmaker, Bush.

Thats all I got to say about that.

[silady79]

Too much of a challenge to keep in the civil state.

[AkuManiMani]

George W. Bush - the Great Globalizer

Thats where you're wrong. He is, in fact...The Decider...

Pfhh! Who am I kidding? Dick Cheney has been the president for the the passed several years. In fact, hes even above the office of president. Just ask him and he'll tell you himself.