disgusting

[pan_sonic_000]

Sometimes, I hate humans. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/03/21/torture.slaying.ap/index.html)

[Meliora]

And it happens so much more than we would like to believe.:sadbanana:

[Lout]

Sometimes, I hate humans. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/03/21/torture.slaying.ap/index.html)

Just sometimes? You should really watch the news more.

[LuridLemur]

Just sometimes? You should really watch the news more.
No, you shouldn't. But the point stands.

[foodeater]

People who do that to other people have no reason to be alive.

[trapstar]

Holy shit... how can someone be so cold!!?!

[silady79]

People who do things like that don't deserve due process. The woman was most likely targetted because she was disabled. So sad how people can be so cold and cruel. The reason the landlord didn't think the victim was in distress was because she was easily influenced by her tormentors. How do people get to be so evil.

[Shoot!]

http://home.tu-clausthal.de/~ifjkl/pics/samuel_l_jackson.jpg

"Some fucked up repugnant shit."

[rainfall]

Holy shit... how can someone be so cold!!?!

You just have to be raised in a proper environment for that. And have a proper personality type :D

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7913/arttortureslayingapce4.jpg

I wonder how old she is. HMM...

In any case, they were pretty silly. Why waste a perfectly normal supply of money? I mean, yes, it's fun to shoot a retarded pregnant lady with BB guns, but this was business, she was an income, a positive asset. Just lock her up and keep her semi-starved so she can't run off. People these days...

[Limey]

Wow, thankfully I haven't seen a situation of that low a class and backwards, back woods depravity. As much as I dislike regional prejudice, there are often strong examples of truth in these stigma, especially when a previously recognized region goes and takes the proverbial "prize".

[demagogic_schizoid]

that was a horrible story but I find it ridiculous that a 12 year old is being charged with murder. if you are 12 and you live in such a household, what choice do you have really? what the fuck is the kid gonna do? go live on the street? or tell them to stop and get trotured to death himself?

Connection between vindictive justice system and vindictive population ayone?

in addition this quote from the police was perhaps a bit more revealing that it should have been:


Dorothy Dixon ate what she could forage from the refrigerator upstairs, where housemates used her for target practice with BBs, burned her with a glue gun and doused her with scalding liquid that peeled away her skin.

They torched what few clothes she had, so she walked around naked. They often pummeled her with an aluminum bat or metal handle.

Dixon -- six months pregnant -- died after weeks of abuse. Police have charged two adults, three teenagers and a 12-year-old boy with murder in the case that has repulsed many in this Mississippi River town.

"This is heartbreaking," police Lt. David Hayes said. "It was almost as though they were making fun of the abuse they were administering. This woman was almost like living in a prison."

[Ptah]

Deplorable. These people, if truly guilty of what is claimed, should suffer as they made their victim suffer -- only worse, and longer. Both as punishment, and as examples to other aberrant, low-life scum. Win-win, if you ask me.

[Sierim]

Deplorable. These people, if truly guilty of what is claimed, should suffer as they made their victim suffer -- only worse, and longer. Both as punishment, and as examples to other aberrant, low-life scum. Win-win, if you ask me.

An understandable position, but I would object. Eye-for-eye is fine with me, but beyond that...that's dangerous territory.

Just my two cents.

[nozflubber]

Maybe the fat bitch deserved it and had the anti-Christ in her belly?

Ya never know......

[SensEye]

Although the 12 year old is probably not responsible, I think he should be put down along with the parents. Re-habilitation is a long shot, plus this gene pool should be nipped in the bud.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Although the 12 year old is probably not responsible, I think he should be put down along with the parents. Re-habilitation is a long shot, plus this gene pool should be nipped in the bud.

Actually, with massive state investment in psychiatric help, loads of kids could probably quite easily be saved from a life of violence due to early traumatic experiences. The kid is a victim as much as the woman, imagine being borne into such an atmoshpere.

[Crazy]

I'm ashamed to be part of the same species as them.

[mgb]

that was a horrible story but I find it ridiculous that a 12 year old is being charged with murder. if you are 12 and you live in such a household, what choice do you have really? what the fuck is the kid gonna do? go live on the street? or tell them to stop and get trotured to death himself?

Connection between vindictive justice system and vindictive population ayone?

in addition this quote from the police was perhaps a bit more revealing that it should have been:

I'd like to agree with you but I can't. The 12 year old is just as bad as the rest of them. She might just be a product of her environment, but she's still a product of her environment. It's not like she was secretly plotting to get out of there or call the police because she knew it was wrong.

The world is a shitty place. I'd rather see the money go to some starving kid in Africa than go into that 12 year old's rehabilitation. I know it won't but it's nice to think the world works like that.

[demagogic_schizoid]

I'd like to agree with you but I can't. The 12 year old is just as bad as the rest of them. She might just be a product of her environment, but she's still a product of her environment. It's not like she was secretly plotting to get out of there or call the police because she knew it was wrong.

Sorry but the 12 year old is not as bad, by simple virtue of not being an adult. The kid hasn't even gone through puberty, so you can't judge him by the same standards as an adult. Would you on a normal occassion judge a 12 year old by the same standards as an adult? If not why on this occassion?



The world is a shitty place. I'd rather see the money go to some starving kid in Africa than go into that 12 year old's rehabilitation. I know it won't but it's nice to think the world works like that.

I don't think there's a need to choose between the two.

I'd rather see the money go to Africa than putting a 12 year old on trial, but there you go.

Anyway I also said that the kid should psyhciatric treatment instead of punishment for reasons of efficiency: it will work better. The idea of the justice system is to prevent crime, right? A kid that age is still being formed as a person, the concepts "adulthood" and "childhood" exist for a reason.

Surely a kid who has that upbringing is mentally fucked up. So, logically, he needs quality, dedicated, expensive treatment. Not to go to a young offenders institute and then come out on the scrapheap (and with greatly enhanced knowledge of the criminal world) for something he was complicit in whilst living under his legal guardians' roof. I mean if he had run away where would he have gone? And even if there were places to go, how the hell would a kid that age know about them?

sorry but there is no way any half-decent justice system could send that kdi down. it would be pure moralism.

[amazingkae]

There is no emoticon for this.

[mgb]

Sorry but the 12 year old is not as bad, by simple virtue of not being an adult. The kid hasn't even gone through puberty, so you can't judge him by the same standards as an adult. Would you on a normal occassion judge a 12 year old by the same standards as an adult? If not why on this occassion?




I don't think there's a need to choose between the two.

I'd rather see the money go to Africa than putting a 12 year old on trial, but there you go.

Anyway I also said that the kid should psyhciatric treatment instead of punishment for reasons of efficiency: it will work better. The idea of the justice system is to prevent crime, right? A kid that age is still being formed as a person, the concepts "adulthood" and "childhood" exist for a reason.

Surely a kid who has that upbringing is mentally fucked up. So, logically, he needs quality, dedicated, expensive treatment. Not to go to a young offenders institute and then come out on the scrapheap (and with greatly enhanced knowledge of the criminal world) for something he was complicit in whilst living under his legal guardians' roof. I mean if he had run away where would he have gone? And even if there were places to go, how the hell would a kid that age know about them?

sorry but there is no way any half-decent justice system could send that kdi down. it would be pure moralism.

You could apply all the same arguments to the adults. These are some seriously fucked up people and they didn't get that way after they hit puberty. There is obviously a cycle of violence here that's probably extended for decades, if not centuries. I'm not for it, but these people make a pretty strong case for forced sterilization.

On the other hand, I wonder if it doesn't take people like these to help make the world go around on some level. If we didn't have them, who would we poke our accusing fingers at?

When I was 12 I still had a pretty good idea of what right and wrong were. This 12 year old probably wasn't any different. And given their humble beginnings and the path they are headed on, I'm not sure rehabilitation is going to go very far. Put another way, the point when this kid didn't have a chance happened at conception.

[demagogic_schizoid]

You could apply all the same arguments to the adults. These are some seriously fucked up people and they didn't get that way after they hit puberty. There is obviously a cycle of violence here that's probably extended for decades, if not centuries. I'm not for it, but these people make a pretty strong case for forced sterilization.

On the other hand, I wonder if it doesn't take people like these to help make the world go around on some level. If we didn't have them, who would we poke our accusing fingers at?

When I was 12 I still had a pretty good idea of what right and wrong were. This 12 year old probably wasn't any different. And given their humble beginnings and the path they are headed on, I'm not sure rehabilitation is going to go very far. Put another way, the point when this kid didn't have a chance happened at conception.

So basically you're saying there is no solution and some people are just bad, and always will be, and all we can do si police them?

This is strange because not all countries and socieities are equally violent. This suggests to me there are solutions, and we should find them and implement them.

Rehabilitation of prisoners has actually been proved to work in many countries in fact and the US justice system should ditch the moralism and try it. :)

[silady79]

A twelve year old knows the difference between right and wrong. A kid that age knows that those sort of things are cruel and evil. What does a twelve year old lack that a fourteen year old has, afterall several fourteen year-olds have been sentenced to death and life terms.

Rehabilation may be possible in a twelve year old's case, but his sentence shouldn't be based on what could happen.

[demagogic_schizoid]

A twelve year old knows the difference between right and wrong. A kid that age knows that those sort of things are cruel and evil. What does a twelve year old lack that a fourteen year old has, afterall several fourteen year-olds have been sentenced to death and life terms.

How does a 12 year old know the difference between right and wrong? who teaches him?

The comaprison with the 14 year old and 17 year old doesn't work, I'm drawing the difference between adult and child. If 14 and 17 year olds get htose sentences I oppose it too.

What does a 12 year old lack that an adult has? Legal independence. An 18 year old could have walked out. A 12 year old realsitically couldn't. Where would he go after leaving his legal guardians? No-one has answered that question. Quick to condemn but slow with suggestions.

Now answer me some questions: can a 12 year old vote? can he own and legally control property? If his parents own property or money, is it his by extension, or only if they leave it to him? I mean, it seems harsh that if his parents win the lottery, he's not entitled to anything, but if they keep a prisoner in the house, he's complicit. Hypocritical even - treated like an adult when it sucks to be one, but excluded from all the benefits...more questions...is his brain fully formed? - remember a brain is jsut a physical organ, it becaomes fully formed along with the rest of the body around about the time you become and adult. - does the state provide facilities to raise children, or does it in fact leave these things up to the fmaily - effectively making a child the property of his family - "society got no responsibility to take care of your kids", etc. but hwat if the kid is raised in a home like that? then it's his fault when he turns out in his families image - surely what the whole idea of "family values" and the "family unit as a building block" is based on, the idea that kids are their parents responsibility and will turn out as they were raised, no? the idea that if your family sucks, it aint up to society to care for you.

So I put it you that if you can understand all these facts, and within such a context STILL want the kid charged for murder, then you are in fact a barbarian.


Rehabilation may be possible in a twelve year old's case, but his sentence shouldn't be based on what could happen

What should it be based on? How about if the choice were between moralism or results?

[Makkis]

It's sick what happened. I'm all for rehabilitation of the kids though. I can't imagine how difficult it would be being forced to live under the roof of a mother who imposed those sorts of ideas and morals on me.

[mgb]

So basically you're saying there is no solution and some people are just bad, and always will be, and all we can do si police them?

This is strange because not all countries and socieities are equally violent. This suggests to me there are solutions, and we should find them and implement them.

Rehabilitation of prisoners has actually been proved to work in many countries in fact and the US justice system should ditch the moralism and try it. :)

Don't be silly, there are more options than policing. We can also sterilize them and put an end to their reign of stupidity.

All countries and all societies have violence in them. It's not a trait unique to backwater United States. There are really two factors at play, larger populations = more opportunity for crazy nutjobs and wider news distribution making people, in say England, hear about this stuff.

What are you going to rehabilitate these people into? Productive members of society? Or maybe they just won't kidnap another developmentally challenged (how did she get pregnant by the way???) woman and beat her to death.

These people come from a moral vacuum. They know the difference between right and wrong and for whatever reason, it wasn't programmed into them to care. I'd love to sit here and tell you that I think that given enough time and energy someone would be able to make them see the error of their ways and that they'd eventually have some sort of life changing epiphany that would led to their eventual release and upon that release they'd become happy productive members of society. I think that would be great. But in reality, they are completely fucked and at best they'll become institutionalized while in prison, at worst, they'll pick up a few tricks in prison that will make them worse people than they already are.

And you know what? These people are just the story of the day. Go to your local video store and rent one the dozens of docu-dramas out there that are so popular right now. The world is full of horrible people who do horrible things to other people. We've behaved this way for thousands of years and it's really shown no signs of stopping.

[mgb]

Actually, with massive state investment in psychiatric help, loads of kids could probably quite easily be saved from a life of violence due to early traumatic experiences. The kid is a victim as much as the woman, imagine being borne into such an atmoshpere.

I wonder if you would feel the same way if it was discovered that these people come from a family that has had large amounts of money for generations and that loads of money had been spent on therapists for all of them over the past decades.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Don't be silly, there are more options than policing. We can also sterilize them and put an end to their reign of stupidity.

you sound like my dad. if it makes you proud to sound like an angry white 50 year old customs officer from London, keep on as you are. ;)


All countries and all societies have violence in them. It's not a trait unique to backwater United States. There are really two factors at play, larger populations = more opportunity for crazy nutjobs and wider news distribution making people, in say England, hear about this stuff.

No, this is like some kind of post-modern belief that all that exists is subjectivity - access to stories - and not objective reality - facts themselves.

The US is one of the most violent coutnries in the world, and the most violent advanced country by far. it's not a matter of opinion. it's not a matter of availibitlity of stories. it's a fact that exists irrespective of my ability to know about it. The USA is more violent than the EU. It has become more violent in the past 30 years. Similairly Brazil is more violent than the USA, despite comparable population size etc.

Therefore economic and political variables affect how violent a society is. To resolve violence you can change those variables. it seems to obvious to state, but unless I am misunderstanding you, then you're arguing against htis fact. If I am misunderstanding you then I apologise.


What are you going to rehabilitate these people into? Productive members of society? Or maybe they just won't kidnap another developmentally challenged (how did she get pregnant by the way???) woman and beat her to death.

I was actually talking about rehabilitating the kid, not necessarilly the adults, that's another argument. I made a lot of points about this in the last post.



I'd love to sit here and tell you that I think that given enough time and energy someone would be able to make them see the error of their ways and that they'd eventually have some sort of life changing epiphany that would led to their eventual release and upon that release they'd become happy productive members of society. I think that would be great. But in reality, they are completely fucked and at best they'll become institutionalized while in prison, at worst, they'll pick up a few tricks in prison that will make them worse people than they already are.

So what action are you arguing for then, I mean you just argued against prison, it seems.

[mgb]

you sound like my dad. if it makes you proud to sound like an angry white 50 year old customs officer from London, keep on as you are. ;)

Yes!!





No, this is like some kind of post-modern belief that all that exists is subjectivity - access to stories - and not objective reality - facts themselves.

The US is one of the most violent coutnries in the world, and the most violent advanced country by far. it's not a matter of opinion. it's not a matter of availibitlity of stories. it's a fact that exists irrespective of my ability to know about it. The USA is more violent than the EU. It has become more violent in the past 30 years. Similairly Brazil is more violent than the USA, despite comparable population size etc.

What about Sudan? Rwanda? Somalia? Ghana? China? Pakistan? Afghanistan?

Maybe the EU is the anomaly and not the other way around?

As for objective reality, are you saying you have the market on it cornered or something?



Therefore economic and political variables affect how violent a society is. To resolve violence you can change those variables. it seems to obvious to state, but unless I am misunderstanding you, then you're arguing against htis fact. If I am misunderstanding you then I apologise.

Being human affects how violent a society is. We're a parasite, what can I say?





I was actually talking about rehabilitating the kid, not necessarilly the adults, that's another argument. I made a lot of points about this in the last post.

The kid isn't going to change. He's not going to get the rehab you want him to and he'll probably end up worse off than he would have been thanks to prison. Your theories and points aren't really relevant because they'll never be tested. Each case is specific and completely subjective. The facts and figures might tell us one thing, but they don't tell us everything.





So what action are you arguing for then, I mean you just argued against prison, it seems.

No action. Let the chips fall where they may, just like they always have.

A guy from England and one from Canada arguing about this on an inane internet forum aren't going to change what happens to this family. I guess that means that I'm arguing for nothing to happen. Let the system take care of it. It's bigger than both of us and doesn't really apply to us, really giving us no reason to care. Objectively, the 12 year old is fucked, no matter what we want, but keep track of him, maybe he'll prove me wrong in ten years.

[Titania]

The 12 year old should likely not be charged. However, 12 is getting old for useful psychological intervention. S/he'll likely grow up a sociopath, and at best, crazy as fuck.

[demagogic_schizoid]

What about Sudan? Rwanda? Somalia? Ghana? China? Pakistan? Afghanistan?

Maybe the EU is the anomaly and not the other way around?

Yes, there are causes for the vioence in all those countries, which could be resolved. what's your point?


As for objective reality, are you saying you have the market on it cornered or something?

It seems that way.



Being human affects how violent a society is. We're a parasite, what can I say?

Yep it's always easy for comfortably off people to have their fun "shunning" society and making whimsical observations about how we're fucked, always were, always have been, and it doesn't matter. Unfortunately most people in the world don't have that choice and need humanities problems solved, parasite or not. How ironic that people who experience the benefits of the amazing things humanity can acheive in some cases - security, abundance, comfort - then give up on humanity as a whole, give up on the idea that everyone could have those things. It's like some kind of trendy pessimism, IMO it's narcissistic and self-indulgent.


The kid isn't going to change. He's not going to get the rehab you want him to and he'll probably end up worse off than he would have been thanks to prison. Your theories and points aren't really relevant because they'll never be tested. Each case is specific and completely subjective. The facts and figures might tell us one thing, but they don't tell us everything.


If this were true there would be no point in governments setting policies. Facts and figures matter a lot. The US is safer than Brazil. The EU is safer than the US. That affects your standard of living if you live in those countries. You can discover the reasons why and find what would have to change in each society to make them safer. For people who come along and post their moralistic emotionalistic disgust at crime and violence but then have no interest in solutions, and in fact oppose changes to the status quo, I have no sympathy.



A guy from England and one from Canada arguing about this on an inane internet forum aren't going to change what happens to this family.

I'ts not just about the family it's about the justice system as a whole.


I guess that means that I'm arguing for nothing to happen. Let the system take care of it. It's bigger than both of us and doesn't really apply to us, really giving us no reason to care

Human systems are made up of people, funnilly enough, we change them and improve them. If you just want to withdraw from the world or something go ahead, but it won't withdraw from you. You'll still have to suffer the effects of the decisions made, whether or not you try to influence them. Burying your head won't make you immune.

[smalband]

Still not as bad a treatment as the one you get in prison though, or so says the police..

I didn't see anything mentioned about it in the article, but it's possible the 12 year old was afraid of his own life if he tried anything.


How does a 12 year old know the difference between right and wrong? who teaches him?

Now answer me some questions: can a 12 year old vote? can he own and legally control property?

Why do you think the law has any effect on a 12 year old's ability for moral reasoning?

If you look at how the brain develops, you are "adult" at around 12 years old according to Piaget's stages of cognitive development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Piaget#The_stages_of_cognitive_development).

However, Herman Epstein found "growth spurts", periods where the brain-weight-to-body-weight ratio increased faster than usual, and the last of those (5, Piaget had 4 stages) last roughly from 14 to 16 years old.

18 years old is when you're an "adult" law-wise. But you're not allowed to drink in most US states until 20, right? So defining "adult" according to what the law says doesn't do much good in my opinion.

[mgb]

Yes, there are causes for the vioence in all those countries, which could be resolved. what's your point?


The point is that billions of people in the world live in dire circumstances and it's more "normal" to live like that than it isn't. You are indicating that there is some sort of natural progression away from violence and I'm saying that there isn't.

I'm also kind of laughing internally at your rightousness about it. The US isn't the EU. Brazil isn't the US. There are a gazillion factors that made each of those places what they are today and idealism isn't going to undo that, ever.







Yep it's always easy for comfortably off people to have their fun "shunning" society and making whimsical observations about how we're fucked, always were, always have been, and it doesn't matter. Unfortunately most people in the world don't have that choice and need humanities problems solved, parasite or not. How ironic that people who experience the benefits of the amazing things humanity can acheive in some cases - security, abundance, comfort - then give up on humanity as a whole, give up on the idea that everyone could have those things. It's like some kind of trendy pessimism, IMO it's narcissistic and self-indulgent.

Says the guy also sitting comfortably at home on his computer. (unless you've switched your chair out for a bed of nails to give yourself an adequate amount of penance for taking advantage of the comforts you are enjoying).

You are also just making observations which are equally whimsical. Since you aren't currently walking the talk (as evidenced by you existance on the internet) you're on the same side of the fence I am. I just realize which side of the fence I'm on and that what I say and do on this forum doesn't really matter.

You are also neglecting thousands of years of human history in your quest for a perfect society. It's really lovely to think that we'll see a world without violence one day, but history tells us we won't. Pragmatism tells us we won't.

Humanities problems will never be solved because we are parasites. It's what we do, not solve problems. For close to 30 years now people have been freaking out about people starving in Africa. With all of the plans, all of the money, the food, the outpooring of emotions and support, there are still people starving to death every day in Africa. Maybe even more now that there were 30 years ago? Why? Human condition. People don't really care. I mean, the might sponsor a kid for $30 a month or buy some homeless guy lunch, but if you told someone that they were going to have to give up their car, or their house or the style of life they've become accustomed to in order to feed the hungry 99.99% of them would tell you to shove it. It's just how people are. It's not right. It's not wrong, people just care more about themselves than they do about someone somewhere they are never going to meet. And if that means amassing resources for their own happiness, so be it.





If this were true there would be no point in governments setting policies. Facts and figures matter a lot. The US is safer than Brazil. The EU is safer than the US. That affects your standard of living if you live in those countries. You can discover the reasons why and find what would have to change in each society to make them safer. For people who come along and post their moralistic emotionalistic disgust at crime and violence but then have no interest in solutions, and in fact oppose changes to the status quo, I have no sympathy.

The US might be safer than Brazil overall, as evidenced though, bad things still happen. You can play with the percentages by geography but the real people at the root of these problems don't really care about the statistics. The pregnant women probably wasn't thinking, "I wish I was in the EU right now because there is a statistically lower probablity that would happen to me there."

In getting stuck on statistics you are losing site of the small picture. Even in the EU really shitty things are going to happen to people. It's a fact of life. You can run around like a chicken with his head cut off screaming about all of the atrocities facing mankind on any given day or you just shrug your shoulders and get on with your day and avoid the inevitable existential crisis you're on the road to.






I'ts not just about the family it's about the justice system as a whole.

Nope, it's not. Precendence works on a case by case basis. You saying the entire justice system needs a massive overhaul is just screaming into the wind.




Human systems are made up of people, funnilly enough, we change them and improve them. If you just want to withdraw from the world or something go ahead, but it won't withdraw from you. You'll still have to suffer the effects of the decisions made, whether or not you try to influence them. Burying your head won't make you immune.

See, that's where you are wrong. You are so stuck on the people running the system and the injustices they are committing that you are ignoring the people in the system.

I'll kind of clarify what I mean. Remember what Europe was like during the middle ages? Kings were switching from Catholic to Protestant. Wars were being fought. Landowners were pledging their alliances to one person or another. Pretty messy business. The peasants didn't stop working because the were all of a sudden Protestant. They didn't fall asleep at a different time or get up at a different time. They probably even still ate fish on Fridays because that's just what they were used to. The just kept living their lives. That's how the world works. People in charge make decisions that will either be of a small amount of help or a small amount of hurt, but overall, the people just keep their heads down and keep working and the world doesn't really change significantly from day to day.

There is actually something kind of nice about that. You obviously aren't seeing the value in that right now, but you will one day.

[colormegone]

It's difficult to rehabilitate someone who wasn't "habilitated" in the first place.

[Titania]

It's difficult to rehabilitate someone who wasn't "habilitated" in the first place.This is actually a really fucking important and extremely true statement which I wish were more widely believed and understood by more politicians. The best social programs to prevent crime are the ones that combat abuse neglect and poverty in children, so there's someone you can rehabilitate later.

[demagogic_schizoid]

The point is that billions of people in the world live in dire circumstances and it's more "normal" to live like that than it isn't. You are indicating that there is some sort of natural progression away from violence and I'm saying that there isn't.

I'm not the one who said "natural", you're the one who said certain things were normal and would always happen, etc. It's you who was deterministic, not me.


I'm also kind of laughing internally at your rightousness about it.

Erm...congratulations?


The US isn't the EU. Brazil isn't the US. There are a gazillion factors that made each of those places what they are today and idealism isn't going to undo that, ever.

Who'se being idealistic and why? This is an overused term. I'm not suggesting the US should become the EU. I'm saying they could solve some of their problems with concrete measures.



Says the guy also sitting comfortably at home on his computer. (unless you've switched your chair out for a bed of nails to give yourself an adequate amount of penance for taking advantage of the comforts you are enjoying).

I never criticised you for enjoying comfort I criticised your hypocrisy for thinking that violence and barbarity is the norm and that this is ok, whilst enjoying a life of relative prosperity and security. I'm correct to say this is hypocritical, because your own life is an example that human beings can provide for some people comfortable lives free of violence and barbarity. this has nothing to do with syaing people should show "penance" for having a decent standard of living. I don't see your point at all.


You are also just making observations which are equally whimsical.

Nope, mine had a point.


Since you aren't currently walking the talk (as evidenced by you existance on the internet) you're on the same side of the fence I am. I just realize which side of the fence I'm on and that what I say and do on this forum doesn't really matter.

If you don't mean it, why say it? If you do mean it, then what you say on the forum is an expression of your opinions which affect how act int he real world, and therefore does matter.


You are also neglecting thousands of years of human history in your quest for a perfect society.

Where? How? And who defines what's a "perfect society"? Who asked for a "perfect society"? Does anyone who ever argued to solve any specific problem now want a "perfect society" - something impossible by definition?


It's really lovely to think that we'll see a world without violence one day, but history tells us we won't.

History in 1800 told us we'd never see jet planes. In any case, no-one mentioned a society without violence, I simply mentioned ways to reduce violence.


Humanities problems will never be solved because we are parasites.

Actually I don't knwo what you mean by that. In any case, some problems in the past have been solved. The UK used to be divided into warring kingdoms of starving tribesmen who died at 30. Now we have solved those problems. Specific problems have specific solution. It's you who turns it into an abstract question - "humanities problems" - which you then answer yourself int he negative.


For close to 30 years now people have been freaking out about people starving in Africa. With all of the plans, all of the money, the food, the outpooring of emotions and support, there are still people starving to death every day in Africa. Maybe even more now that there were 30 years ago? Why? Human condition. People don't really care. I mean, the might sponsor a kid for $30 a month or buy some homeless guy lunch, but if you told someone that they were going to have to give up their car, or their house or the style of life they've become accustomed to in order to feed the hungry 99.99% of them would tell you to shove it.

Obviosuly. Now who proposed telling people to give up their car, or their house, or their style of life? why are you even telling me this?



The US might be safer than Brazil overall, as evidenced though, bad things still happen. You can play with the percentages by geography but the real people at the root of these problems don't really care about the statistics. The pregnant women probably wasn't thinking, "I wish I was in the EU right now because there is a statistically lower probablity that would happen to me there."

what's your point?


It's a fact of life. You can run around like a chicken with his head cut off screaming about all of the atrocities facing mankind on any given day or you just shrug your shoulders and get on with your day and avoid the inevitable existential crisis you're on the road to.

I'm not really interested in this I just wanted your justificationf or arguing against my argument that a 12 year old kid shouldn't be prosecuted for murder. Clearly you don't have one, instead you just think it's unhealthy to have an opinion, and at the same time, you just have to express your lack of opinion.



Nope, it's not. Precendence works on a case by case basis. You saying the entire justice system needs a massive overhaul is just screaming into the wind.

No it's called social commentary.



See, that's where you are wrong. You are so stuck on the people running the system and the injustices they are committing that you are ignoring the people in the system.

Not at all, I'm the one who cares about a 12 year old kid, you just want people sterilised.


I'll kind of clarify what I mean. Remember what Europe was like during the middle ages? Kings were switching from Catholic to Protestant. Wars were being fought. Landowners were pledging their alliances to one person or another. Pretty messy business. The peasants didn't stop working because the were all of a sudden Protestant. They didn't fall asleep at a different time or get up at a different time. They probably even still ate fish on Fridays because that's just what they were used to. The just kept living their lives. That's how the world works. People in charge make decisions that will either be of a small amount of help or a small amount of hurt, but overall, the people just keep their heads down and keep working and the world doesn't really change significantly from day to day.

Your world chnages significantly when you catch the plague or when your kids are conscripted into a civil war. Therefore solving those problems massively changed peoples lives over the centuries, yes.


There is actually something kind of nice about that. You obviously aren't seeing the value in that right now, but you will one day

I very much doubt it, I have too much interest in real history and too little interest in mystical rambling.