Do you Believe in the Death Penalty

[Shai Gar]

this is a variant on the death penalty thread. i am asking do you believe in the death penalty and why, and also for what crimes, and what exceptions. but also are you from a nation* that has the death penalty.

*these are the only nations of the 192 nations on earth that still have the death penalty:
AFGHANISTAN,
ANTIGUA
BARBUDA,
BAHAMAS,
BAHRAIN,
BANGLADESH,
BARBADOS,
BELARUS,
BELIZE,
BOTSWANA,
BURUNDI,
CAMEROON,
CHAD,
CHINA,
COMOROS,
CONGO (Democratic Republic),
CUBA,
DOMINICA,
EGYPT,
EQUATORIAL GUINEA,
ERITREA,
ETHIOPIA,
GABON,
GHANA,
GUATEMALA,
GUINEA,
GUYANA,
INDIA,
INDONESIA,
IRAN,
IRAQ,
JAMAICA,
JAPAN,
JORDAN,
KAZAKSTAN,
KOREA (North),
KOREA (South),
KUWAIT,
KYRGYZSTAN,
LAOS,
LEBANON,
LESOTHO,
LIBERIA,
LIBYA,
MALAWI,
MALAYSIA,
MONGOLIA,
MOROCCO,
MYANMAR,
NIGERIA,
OMAN,
PAKISTAN,
PHILIPPINES,
QATAR,
RWANDA,
SAINT CHRISTOPHER & NEVIS,
SAINT LUCIA,
SAINT VINCENT & GRENADINES, 5 saints who want the death penalty, heh
SAUDI ARABIA,
SIERRA LEONE,
SINGAPORE,
SOMALIA,
SUDAN,
SWAZILAND,
SYRIA,
TAIWAN,
TAJIKISTAN,
TANZANIA, THAILAND,
TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO,
UGANDA,
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES,
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
UZBEKISTAN,
VIET NAM,
YEMEN,
ZAMBIA,
ZIMBABWE

[Shai Gar]

i do not believe in it because it is a tragic waste of human life, and the person who kills the person on death row is also a murderer, which is a crime in the nations that have the death penalty. i am also against war as it is premeditated murder.

[Serotonin]

No. Makes state on moral equivalence with criminals etc. etc. Every time I think of that I think of Maximilian Robespierre and the carnage of 1792. Yuck.

Also glorifies killers. Makes them "martyrs for the cause". I want them to rot in jail cells rather than being given the gift of non-reflection i.e. death.

Apparently someone threw acid in the face of life jailbird Martin Bryant a couple of years ago. Given the death penalty, he wouldn't have had that ordeal. Perversely, I'm kinda glad that happened to him.

[Shai Gar]

i thought martin bryant was in perpetual isolation. and i wonder what the crime was of the person who threw acid in his face? if it was murder or drug dealing he is a hypocrite.

and i am not so glad that happened to him, our government would be under obligation to fix his face and spend thousands on him that should have gone to a person who has never committed a crime.

fie, for shame.

[songbird36]

Thread hijacker!

Death to you...:lol:

[Shai Gar]

songbird your thread was obviously biased. there are many americans in these forums and it would have been better represented if we had known who outside america believed and disbelieved in the death penalty. as well as giving the americans the chance to say they are a yank and dont believe in it.

plus you are in new zealand. that is not one of the nations that has the death penalty. why did you say you were in one?

[PsiKik]

*these are the only 6 nations of the 192 nations on earth that still have the death penalty:
United States of America,
Iran,
Nigeria,
Pakistan,
Saudi Arabia,
Yemen

What about :
China
Japan
Botswana
Syria
Korea
Phillipines

And there are quite a few more Im sure.

[Chicken]

I don't agree with the death penalty. I think it supports the suicide of the human race as a whole. I think diversity is important among the species. Criminals seem to be some of the most highly skilled survivors, and removing them from the world also removes some of our potential of survival in the future. While I don't support or agree with killing, I also don't condem people who do it. It could be a highly useful skill in someone when it is required to survive. All humans are hypocrites, anyway. Live & let live.. Putting them in prison and leaving them there until they are useful is the best idea so far that I can see. Killing them kind of defeats the purpose.

So, hey.. Why don't we just send criminals off to war to fight? They're professionals already.

Actually, I really miss the idea of putting criminals to work instead of giving them TV and free meals. They could be mining or something useful, instead of just sitting around all day and killing eachother.

Instead of putting them alongside "free" citizens, we could just test them out in Iraq in controlled groups. All those killers would be ready and willing under the right circumstances, I'm sure. After all, they are just what the doctor (society) ordered.

[Shai Gar]

What about :
China
Japan
Botswana
Syria
Korea
Phillipines

And there are quite a few more Im sure.
good point, i forgot about the other third world nations. and i am pretty certain japan did away with its policy. in the mean time i will update my list. you never answered the question

[songbird36]

songbird your thread was obviously biased. there are many americans in these forums and it would have been better represented if we had known who outside america believed and disbelieved in the death penalty. as well as giving the americans the chance to say they are a yank and dont believe in it.

plus you are in new zealand. that is not one of the nations that has the death penalty. why did you say you were in one?

It was actually a joke SG..lol

However I'm not sure why you think my poll was biased. I expressed no view whatever (and still haven't) on whether the death penalty should be used or not. I was merely trying to spark some debate.

[Shai Gar]

not your wording of the poll, the poll itself. it was unintentionally biased in that there are many americans here and they are in a nation that supports it.

my options show the variants

[Miss Anthropic]

Since this is more or less the same as the other thread, I'll just repost my views. I suppose I'm not particularly for or against...I would never want to be responsible for another person's death, ie; on the sentencing jury, or the guy who flips the switch but mainly I think death is the easy way out for those who commit heinous crimes and get the death penalty. So the reason I am against it is not particularly humanistic--I just don't see death as an appropriate punishment.

What I said on the other thread:
My actual feeling on the subject is that death is an easy way out for those convicted and sentenced to the death penalty. They should have to spend the rest of their days in a little cell with only a bed, sink and toilet. No TV, no cigarettes, coffee, snack foods, visitors or phone calls. Give them 3 basic meals a day and water to drink. Offer them a book to read, a piece of paper and pencil and let them out to walk for 30 minutes a day. It could be an awfully long life sentence. Now that would actually be punishment. Well, to an INTP it might not be so bad......But an ENFJ would suffer!

[Miss Anthropic]

not your wording of the poll, the poll itself. it was unintentionally biased in that there are many americans here and they are in a nation that supports it.

my options show the variants

Shai Gar you seem to believe that because we live here we agree with everything that goes on. Au contraire mon ami......many people I know have threatened to move to Canada since Bush got re-elected.

[Shai Gar]

threatened sure. but how many people made the move. and i know that a lot of people oppose it. however so many people are for it and a staggering amount of people are so indecided that they just agree with their government (SJ)

i dont believe that all people in the US are for it, but if the majority were against it then it wouldnt be there anymore. you live in "the worlds 'greatest' democracy" right?

[Tybeas]

To Chicken : You seem to be glamourizing criminals and murderers in general and underestimate the profession of a soldier. Waging war is not just about killing people, it involves complicated tactics, respecting conventions and ethics, discipline and teamwork. And I can tell you most of the people in the modern armies are there to hope to never have to kill someone unless they really have too in order to defend themselves or their country.

What I think most people don`t get with criminals and murderers is that, unless the very few that are without laws and fate and killed in a tought way for money or business purpose, criminals and murderers most of the time have deep psychological problems. Anger management problems, schizos, psychos, they are not able, and will, unfortunaly in most cases, never be able to fit in society. That`s why we keep them locked in actually... So giving them a gun is the last thing I`ll do !

I know of both worlds. I`ve work as a security agent in a prison, only for minors but still, and also was in the army and I tell you, I wouldn`t want any of the psychos I`ve kept in jail in my unit. We see and hear already of too many crimes of war and unnecessary slaughters in the world right now thank you.

But even though I`m against the death penalty in general, except in very explicit cases, because they`re could always be a mistake, I do agree that we should turn them into a profit instead of a cost. I know in Canada, a prisonner costs approximately 70 000$ a year, which is at least 2 to 3 times the average revenue of a canadian family if my memory is good.

[songbird36]

Shai Gar you seem to believe that because we live here we agree with everything that goes on. Au contraire mon ami......many people I know have threatened to move to Canada since Bush got re-elected.

I think it's a variation on the doctrine of legal positivism..

[Shai Gar]

i am assuming that you are in canada. if you are in yankee land, just a bit of trivia for ya, they use the army as an option instead of jail

[Miss Anthropic]

threatened sure. but how many people made the move. and i know that a lot of people oppose it. however so many people are for it and a staggering amount of people are so indecided that they just agree with their government (SJ)

i dont believe that all people in the US are for it, but if the majority were against it then it wouldnt be there anymore. you live in "the worlds 'greatest' democracy" right?

Its a little more complicated than that...I think you realize that. As for Canada, I don't think they want a bunch of Americans moving north. I do know someone who dropped out of college to move up there (he lived there as a child and has some sort of residency card he wants to renew--he is American) anyway, I believe he is thinking about avoiding a draft if there is one. I don't blame him at all.

[songbird36]

i am assuming that you are in canada. if you are in yankee land, just a bit of trivia for ya, they use the army as an option instead of jail

Did you actually read her post where she clearly states she is *not* in Canada?

[Tybeas]

Well I was mostly referring to big criminals and murderers here, people that would for instance deserve death penalty in the US. But of course they`re is the "bad boys" that are "saveable" and could turn useful if shown a little discipline...

And hum yes I`m in Canada and it`s not an option here nope.

And also, way not sure but, if you are referring to me Songbird, I`m a "he"... at least I think ...is that correct altought ??.humm..wait let me check ... hummm.. y...yes ...oh definitely yup I`m a "he" lol

[Shai Gar]

HAH.

[Swift]

Criminals seem to be some of the most highly skilled survivors, and removing them from the world also removes some of our potential of survival in the future. Did you fell on your head or something? :blink:

[Shai Gar]

i agree, i know quite a few criminals, and a lot of them are indeed the survivor types. most of whom come from such backgrounds that would make lesser people slit their wrists. they also have great forethought and can think on their feet.

not many can claim that, just because they happen to, find, things people give them a bad name.

[PsiKik]

Would forced rehabilitation be considered OK?. If you have seen the film 'Clockwork Orange' the government are experimenting with a brainwashing system to make violent
crimminals safe even though it is an extremely severe process.

[cjs55]

There are people who have no use to society, and only can do damage. I don't believe in forced rehabilation through brainwashing or whatever you could possibly do it with. I don't believe that voluntary rehabilation is pragmatic: It will most often just be an excuse for criminals to get back into society to cause damage.

However, I have very un-PC/anti-mainstream views on this whole subject. For instance, I would sentence a construction worker to the death penalty for serial killing, but I would not sentence a brilliant scientist working on the cure for cancer of it. Instead I would keep him contained in a jail laboratory where he could continue his work.

I am often torn between a machiavellian look at justice as 'whatever is best for society', and the idea of justice as 'doing what is right'. It would be a very hard decision for me to make in many cases.

But I have no qualms about ridding society of its most harmful members. Funny enough, at the top of this list would probably include many corrupt CEOs and politicians...

You steal 50 million dollars from your company? You die. That should be a bit more of a deterrant.

[Claverhouse]

i thought martin bryant was in perpetual isolation. and i wonder what the crime was of the person who threw acid in his face? if it was murder or drug dealing he is a hypocrite.

and i am not so glad that happened to him, our government would be under obligation to fix his face and spend thousands on him that should have gone to a person who has never committed a crime.

fie, for shame.

I've no idea who Mr. Bryant may be, but I've always believed there ought to be an automatic death penalty for destroying someone's face through any means, for whatever reason. It has to be the worse crime in the world.

[ It would be a separate charge, distinct from whatever other offences were alleged, like GBH or murder. ]

And I agree with Clara, re convicts administering their own twisted idea of 'justice'; sometimes in Britain horrific stories creep out of jail. I said in an earlier thread that apart from the fact this is wrong in itself, they have no right whatsoever to do further criminal stuff whilst in jail. I can't see why jail has to be either deliberately vile, in addition to the loss of liberty, as some here believe; or made more hideous by gangs of vicious men ( and sometimes women ) allowed to do what they want.

The death penalty is relatively mild compared with the fantasies of punishment desired by the average citizen.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[PsiKik]

The death penalty is relatively mild compared with the fantasies of punishment desired by the average citizen.

Claverhouse :ph34r:

This is true. I have often been shocked when in casual conversation a coworker or aquantance reveals the medieval
punishment they would like to inflict on crimminals.

[Dman]

I don't agree with the death penalty. I think it supports the suicide of the human race as a whole. I think diversity is important among the species. Criminals seem to be some of the most highly skilled survivors, and removing them from the world also removes some of our potential of survival in the future. While I don't support or agree with killing, I also don't condem people who do it. It could be a highly useful skill in someone when it is required to survive. All humans are hypocrites, anyway. Live & let live.. Putting them in prison and leaving them there until they are useful is the best idea so far that I can see. Killing them kind of defeats the purpose.

So, hey.. Why don't we just send criminals off to war to fight? They're professionals already.

Actually, I really miss the idea of putting criminals to work instead of giving them TV and free meals. They could be mining or something useful, instead of just sitting around all day and killing eachother.

Instead of putting them alongside "free" citizens, we could just test them out in Iraq in controlled groups. All those killers would be ready and willing under the right circumstances, I'm sure. After all, they are just what the doctor (society) ordered.

Yeah, cause they conform so well to rules, and deep down they really want to help society, they just need to kill... I often wonder if there is a direct correlation between idealism and naiveté...

I agree with the put them to work philosophy, as I mentioned in the other thread.

But the problem with your idea to send them to war is that many of them are not that “type” of killer. Some are predators of women, some children, and most of them are anti-social. Even of those who had the potential, why would they be willing to fight for a society that they reject? They’d be more likely to side with the others.


Here’s an idea – can you say “SLAVE LABOR”

[Chicken]

Yeah, cause they conform so well to rules, and deep down they really want to help society, they just need to kill... I often wonder if there is a direct correlation between idealism and naiveté...

I agree with the put them to work philosophy, as I mentioned in the other thread.

But the problem with your idea to send them to war is that many of them are not that “type” of killer. Some are predators of women, some children, and most of them are anti-social. Even of those who had the potential, why would they be willing to fight for a society that they reject? They’d be more likely to side with the others.


Here’s an idea – can you say “SLAVE LABOR”

You so need to stop crushing on me.. it's annoying

[Shai Gar]

most murders are crimes of passion. the person generally will not kill again, hell in most cases the person is shocked that they have killed in the first place. they still go to jail, as it is what they deserve. but forgiveness after a period of time should be in place, and indeed is.

and not even all people in jail are there because of murder, in most cases it is another crime. should these people also be forced into the army? if i was ever caught and sent to jail for something i did a while ago, i would certainly not want to be forced into killing another person.

here is a happy idea, voluntary isolation with book rights.

[booyalab]

I support the death penalty, but my state doesn't have it. I dont think we ever will either. It's ok though because violent crime is low here. The worst punishment that I think will ever be considered is crastration for sexual offenders.

[Geoff]

I support the death penalty, but my state doesn't have it. I dont think we ever will either. It's ok though because violent crime is low here. The worst punishment that I think will ever be considered is crastration for sexual offenders.

Is crastration where you say something really base and mean to them until they cry?

-Geoff

[songbird36]

I support the death penalty, but my state doesn't have it. I dont think we ever will either. It's ok though because violent crime is low here. The worst punishment that I think will ever be considered is crastration for sexual offenders.

Doesn't the "love that dares not speak its name" in your State count Boo?

(Just teasin' ya)..

:lol:

[booyalab]

Doesn't the "love that dares not speak its name" in your State count Boo?

(Just teasin' ya)..

:lol:

It's a good thing you told me you were teasing, otherwise I would have been eternally offended.

[songbird36]

It's a good thing you told me you were teasing, otherwise I would have been eternally offended.

I know being an INTP chick that you can take it (you don't get emotionally involved etc)..

:lol:

[Claverhouse]

most murders are crimes of passion.
I don't think so...

Means, motives and opportunity: and of the motives the greatest is 'Bomber's Law' from the eponymous book of that name by George V. Higgins whom I mentioned a day back. Although it applies mostly to the dumb decisions made by everyone, it goes for murder as well: 'We Did It For The Money'.


the person generally will not kill again, hell in most cases the person is shocked that they have killed in the first place. they still go to jail, as it is what they deserve. but forgiveness after a period of time should be in place, and indeed is.
Firstly, I happen to believe that murders on impulse are worse than premeditated affairs ( although not wickeder ), and that the person who can't control themselves should be put down on general principle anyway.

Secondly, I've never 'got' forgiveness. I could certainly forget, but not forgive if the offence was bad enough. Forgiveness is generally something admired by the weak [ see Nietzsche passim ].


and not even all people in jail are there because of murder, in most cases it is another crime. should these people also be forced into the army? if i was ever caught and sent to jail for something i did a while ago, i would certainly not want to be forced into killing another person.
Actually, it's an idea with a pretty impressive lineage: most armies in history had chaps who were there because they'd been given a choice by a judge, or were exited from jail with a rifle on condition they sinned no more... But if I were a soldier I'd hate to have a slavering lunatic as my companion who'd been banged up for molesting little girls.


here is a happy idea, voluntary isolation with book rights.
Not for someone who'd murdered my sister, no.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[booyalab]

Is crastration where you say something really base and mean to them until they cry?

-Geoff

lol I didnt even see the typo until the second time I read that post of yours. The first time I was like "uhh....huh?..castration?..your point being.."

How is it that some people can get by misspelling every 3rd word and everyone ignores it but when I make a SINGLE ERROR it's the end of the world!! :rant:

[booyalab]

I think even if murders are all crimes of passion, that doesn't make them less of a concern. If anything it makes those who commit them more volatile and dangerous. You can't point to them when they're calm or seem reasonable and say "look, he's back to normal...he told me so himself", because you know they are capable of the diametrically opposite mental state and you cant trust what they say when they're 'normal' to be any indication of how they'll be when they're 'not'.

[jimkopelli]

"the worlds 'greatest' democracy"
:rofl:

Funnier if you acted like you were serious. (ie. no internal quotes)

[Dman]

You so need to stop crushing on me.. it's annoying

Sorry. Stop setting yourself up to be crushed and I'll stop. jk.

[Shai Gar]

:rofl:

Funnier if you acted like you were serious. (ie. no internal quotes)
i shall remember that for next time

["InsertNameHere"]

Instead of putting them alongside "free" citizens, we could just test them out in Iraq in controlled groups. All those killers would be ready and willing under the right circumstances, I'm sure. After all, they are just what the doctor (society) ordered.

:shock: Oh really? I'd feel sorry for the Iraqy people if you were ever put in charge of the gov't. Hopefully, that never happens. I like the idea of criminals "working" off their death to society, though.

I used to believe that the death penalty was wrong (mainly because of defendents being wrongly accused and sent to death...mostly minorities) http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=539
...but after seeing a guy almost stab his mother to death a week ago. I'd kill the bastard myself!

[Shai Gar]

that is because you got heated up about it, and emotional INTP's are very emotional.

take a step back and think, what if that guy gets away, they arrest someone who looks like him and sentence him to death? would you still be for it?

i too am starting to like the idea of working off their crime. just like the idea of spending a long time in hell untill you understand what you did wrong and you serve out the amount of years you believe you deserve for it.