More bitchin'..

[Chicken]

SJ types upset me. Seriously.

I tried to explain to my mother today, who is ISFJ, that Sensing and Intuitive types have different worldly perspectives. I commented that S types don't understand N types, and N types don't understand S types. She responded by calling me an arrogant, self absorbed, inconsiderate intuitive. She claims to understand me, and this is an ongoing disagreement. All she understands is how to push my buttons and upset me further. Oh, and she also went as far to say that NTs are all narcissistic. I expressed my opinion on S types pretty bluntly, and just explained that they don't understand N types, and it really gets me bothered to have them trying to change me all the time. I also made a point to comment that I am greatly upset by people who try to force their nature onto me, and tell me that I should live my life differently. She proceeded to insult me more, and attempted to get a rise out of me after expressing my dislike for an S type counselor I had encountered. I'm quite bothered by the whole incident. Does anyone else here have S type parents? Is there any way to get through to a parent who just is unhappy no matter what I do?
If I don't speak, she asks me 50 questions and tells me I'm strange for not speaking enough. However, when I do actually say what's on my mind she still tells me my ideas and opinions are wrong, and that I'm being selfish or that I shouldn't say the things I say. If it's not that, then she's condeming the way in which I speak and actually screaming at me for cursing. There is no pleasing this woman, and really, I gave up on trying quite a while back. Both of my parents are convinced that I'm weird and I have 'serious issues'. However, even though they say the same of nearly everyone, the value is quite different coming from a parent. Still, it is the most annoying thing to have parents who are just not accepting.

Is this common among N types with S parents? both of my parents are SJ..

[mgb]

I have/had SJ parents.

Move out.

[songbird36]

Yep.

ISTJs are the worst of all the types.

Narrowminded pedantic gits...

[Nighthawk]

My mother is an ISTJ. My father was an ESTP. I moved out at age 17.

[Vagabond]

ESFJ mother here. I can't say I relate totally, but I do relate a lot. Especially to the part where "she knows me inside out" when in reality she is clueless. Part of how accepting she gets, is your age, I am afraid... I don't know how old you are, I just know that there was *no way* I could make my mother realise I am different than the norm before I got 23 or something. Before that, she was convinced that I was rebelling or being contradictory on purpose. Accept one thing: she will never understand you. My mother is eventually trying to understand me (fails) and at least she accepts I am different and respects that (most of the times... she still gets on my neck sometimes about finding a nice guy to marry and have kids with :D ).
You should be patient. Telling her how much you disliked that S counselor you had encountered was a bad move, in my opinion - SFJs can't get the "detached blunt unemotional truth" thing... to her, you just said you disliked S people, she is S, so you said you dislike her. And since SJs "know you so well", she thinks you said that just to hurt her feelings (so of course then she fought back with how arrogant etc you are). You can't do much... stand your ground, but instead of fighting with her, try to explain that right or wrong, this is who you are and is she loves you less for it, then so be it (no SFJ will ever go along with that, chances are she will think she pushed you too much and get upset at herself). Try telling her things about how your mind works at irrelevant moments, when you are both calm and in good terms and take it easy, don't hit her with your weirdest theories... your normal theories will probably be weird enough for her anyway. You might get weird responses about how you should change your T and become an F (my mother used to tell me to snap out of my introversion, lol), but nevermind that. Don't expect her to understand you. I think this is impossible. Focus on making her accept you are different, even is she doesn't understand. And btw, about weirdness - even my father thinks I am weird, and he is an INFJ... nothing wrong with that. You should be more accepting of your differences too, and yes they are going to think you are weird or eccentric or whatever... in comparison to them, you are. Why does that hurt your feelings? It doesn't mean they don't care for you just because they notice that your personalities are different. If you are trying to change them, you are making the same mistake they are.

[Zero Angel]

"Pack your bags, we're going on a guilt trip"

Its useful for dissolving the guilt manipulation of any type. I've also noticed the trend where SJs like to think they know people, but they are usually wrong because they think that everyone is like them, has the same desires, motivations, etc. Which is likely not true for IP and N types who are both far different from SFJs.

[Chicken]

ESFJ mother here. I can't say I relate totally, but I do relate a lot. Especially to the part where "she knows me inside out" when in reality she is clueless. Part of how accepting she gets, is your age, I am afraid... I don't know how old you are, I just know that there was *no way* I could make my mother realise I am different than the norm before I got 23 or something. Before that, she was convinced that I was rebelling or being contradictory on purpose. Accept one thing: she will never understand you. My mother is eventually trying to understand me (fails) and at least she accepts I am different and respects that (most of the times... she still gets on my neck sometimes about finding a nice guy to marry and have kids with :D ).
You should be patient. Telling her how much you disliked that S counselor you had encountered was a bad move, in my opinion - SFJs can't get the "detached blunt unemotional truth" thing... to her, you just said you disliked S people, she is S, so you said you dislike her. And since SJs "know you so well", she thinks you said that just to hurt her feelings (so of course then she fought back with how arrogant etc you are). You can't do much... stand your ground, but instead of fighting with her, try to explain that right or wrong, this is who you are and is she loves you less for it, then so be it (no SFJ will ever go along with that, chances are she will think she pushed you too much and get upset at herself). Try telling her things about how your mind works at irrelevant moments, when you are both calm and in good terms and take it easy, don't hit her with your weirdest theories... your normal theories will probably be weird enough for her anyway. You might get weird responses about how you should change your T and become an F (my mother used to tell me to snap out of my introversion, lol), but nevermind that. Don't expect her to understand you. I think this is impossible. Focus on making her accept you are different, even is she doesn't understand. And btw, about weirdness - even my father thinks I am weird, and he is an INFJ... nothing wrong with that. You should be more accepting of your differences too, and yes they are going to think you are weird or eccentric or whatever... in comparison to them, you are. Why does that hurt your feelings? It doesn't mean they don't care for you just because they notice that your personalities are different. If you are trying to change them, you are making the same mistake they are.


Thanks for the reply, Vanga.. that really is a lot of helpful insight. You're probably right about the last bit: about thinking it's wrong to be 'weird' or 'different'. Even so, I wish it was easier to just fit in, but it doesn't work. I guess that's part of getting older, hey.. I've been trying to give her websites lately that explain the differences, but she takes this as me going on a "plateau" and trying to convince her that i'm "special". Which she ends up telling me I'm arrogant for and full of myself for thinking I'm different. What you said about her thinking I said it to offend her was exactly right, but I really didn't mean it that way at all, and she doesn't seem to understand that. She really thinks any time I'm upset and want to be alone that she is the reason why, and that I must hate her for it. It's just not the case at all, and she hates that when I am upset I go even more quiet than usual.

It upsets her a lot when I go silent, and she takes it as her having done something. She has cried over me not speaking, or leaving the room because I didn't want to speak to anyone and just spend some time alone. Either way, it's not my intention to upset her, and I've tried to explain this. It always seems to end up that way, though. There are obvious conflicts in commiunication, and I hope they get resolved sometime.

I'll try the comment love thing and see what happens.. thanks for the advice

[Lee]

but she takes this as me going on a "plateau" and trying to convince her that i'm "special". Which she ends up telling me I'm arrogant for and full of myself for thinking I'm different.

I had the exact same conversation with my ESFJ mother the other day, she can drive me mad sometimes, especially when that F kicks in. Thankfully my mother seems to have a developed her N so occaisionaly things go smoothly but our relationship is full of compromises to avoid upset, it doesn't work though, ESFJ's seem hardwired to get upset everynow and then, my best advice is keep at least 20m between you and your ESFJ when this occurs.

[Eileen]

My mom is ISFJ. She doesn't really 'get' everything about me, but she loves me a ton and doesn't judge me. Maybe it's strange for an ISFJ; maybe it's that she's had so much shit of her own that she's not going to go damaging other people, but my mom is really pretty awesome. She's the best SJ in the universe.

[Zero Angel]

No, MY mom is the best SJ in the universe [ESFJ]. In fact my mom can probably beat up your mom. ;)

T solutions dont seem to work for SFJ types, but they love compliments when they are upset.

[Birdsnest]

I'm a mom. I am not like that, but I think the answer with mothers is...act like you are listening. She probably just wants to know someone is listening to her. Give her a hug and tell her you love her, you don't understand her, but you love her. The hug will make her feel better, and thats probably ALL she really wants to know anyway, do you love her. She may be completely different, but if you tell her with a hug that you love her, she will probably knock that off.

Forget all the other stuff. Life is silly. You can't understand it I guess. I've got a Dad that plays stupid games and he is an 8 type, a Marine in fact. You can't argue with him. Just bridge the gap and get out of there when you can. YOU are ok, remember that. I am here to tell you YOU are OK! I guess we might come off as being arrogant to others but...its not really arrogance, its just we have to rely on ourselves and find more comfort within than from anywhere else I guess. Get a paperback book called "I'm ok Your'e ok", and leave the book on a coffee table for your mom to read.

[Lee]

T solutions dont seem to work for SFJ types, but they love compliments when they are upset.

Real T solutions don't work for SFJ types but ask them and they will maintain that they are infact very logical. I know 3 SFJ's in my family, all of them typed themselves as T's, only after pointing out thier moments of sheer irrationality just after the event did they begin to concede, even now my overly emotionally controlled ISFJ sister thinks she is logical, it makes the explanation of real logic impossible.

oh well, I guess we are not going to win and there is little point trying to change them, we would simply be doing the same thing that they do to us.....best ploy is to avoid em.

[Utopmk]

I like SJs only because it is cliché to be INTP and not..

edit: and because one of them fed-exed me cake and tshirts for my birthday.

[Eileen]

I'm sorry to be off topic, but that sig is just... hypnotizing...


Ahh, logic and SJs. Mamasita isn't very logical, but she is very practical when she isn't very batshit. Dad, on the other hand, is pretty logical (I guess) and not at all practical. You'd think it would balance out, right? That Pop would use the logic and Mom would take care of the practicality? Not so much. :)

And then there are the two INF daughters who are neither practical nor primarily logical.

One thing that I've always had trouble with in terms of Mom the SJ is her total lack of interest in a lot of the things that really get me going, like poetry or theology. She'll listen politely, but she's just not into it.

[Serotonin]

My father is ISFJ. But my INTP mum and I outdo him in most dinner conversations :). He is extremely intelligent though (has an MA) and is able to understand complex concepts. However, he loves to resort to pithy maxims "Keep your head down and your powder dry!", but those are tolerable. By and large, he's a great dad and the most wonderful Ss i know.
my xSFJ sister and I can never have a D & M conversation, so it always ends up being trivial. Wackiness is about the only thing we have in common. Her wackiness is very S though(e.g. nonsense words) so I slyly repeat them back to her in a mocking way, trying to get her to realise her shallowness, but instead she just ends up laughing, thinking I am on exactly the same wavelength as her.

[Jacque]

I have/had SJ parents.

Move out.

I don't know if avoidance is necessary. My political/spiritual interests became my mom's interests. I even altered her taste in music. She's somewhat become a bit of a religious scholar with all the books she's been reading, and her political awareness went from zero to all out political junkie. Of course, all of this is rather fresh in a family dominated by SJs. She's fun to talk to now, not that my mother wasn't ever fun as plain old ISFJ, but I think people develop their latent functions faster with a bit of a push. Being a parent, she had to understand me, which you don't get from SJs who merely have the option. So don't think there isn't anything to be shared.

My ESTJ dad, though, is still very ESTJ...my mom's the one to restrain him socially - he's domineering of course. Oh, and my ISTJ uncle is simply hilarious, and a very honest man. I just realized how much they respected me for the S/N difference. I was the artistic one who knew it all cuz they said I made people feel stupid...which had the effect of making me feel stupid as well cuz I didn't understand their S-ness, which I do now...somewhat.