Muslim INTPs - Just Asking...

[J.L. des Alpins]

I don't think that newspapers, reporters and policitians are succeeding in communicating via one-liner soundbites the complexity of the muslim culture. Furthermore, over-exuberant and fanatical religious followers aren't helping either.

Therefore, I am asking INTPs who were raised in the muslim culture. Is there truly a cultural "East-West" conflict, as media just keep pounding on everyone?

If so, there must be a rational reason for it. Just based on facts, what could be the rational reason for any misunderstanding?

Just asking,

[Ferrus]

I was raised in Kent, a bastion of the Islamic caliphate, and I can quite sincerely say that everything reported in the press is quite inaccurate. The Islamic world loves America and sincerely wishes to see more MacDonalds, more American porn and more soldiers posthaste.

[V Profane]

more MacDonalds

It's McDonalds, dhimmi.

Are Big Macs halal?

[trapstar]

Are Big Macs halal?

Yes they are

http://www.unc.edu/~emuller/isthatlegal/mcdonalds.jpg

Would you like a mine with that?

[dhellen]

"Just based on facts, what could be the rational reason for any misunderstanding?"

I would go read some noam chompsky stuff to understand this. Essentially in the western world we only get told about the nasty deeds of other cultures/civilisations and not our own. The problem is not that we get lied to but that information we are given is filtered so that things that would protray us in a bad light get ignored in our media. This is true in all media actually so in muslim media criticism of western politics is ok but criticism of muslim politics would not be allowed.

A documentary that explains the process very well is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent:_Noam_Chomsky_and_the_Media



PS. When I think of a muslim INTP I can't help but think of Malcolm X. He would be pretty much my baseline for what a badass INTP looks like. (the iintpness shows in the quotes)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_x

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Malcolm_X

[Stoned_Rider]

Moved from Philosophy & Spirituality.

[NoahFence]

Yes they are

http://www.unc.edu/~emuller/isthatlegal/mcdonalds.jpg

Would you like a mine with that?

When I noticed the Playplace, I shuddered in a way I don't think I ever have before.

[rhinosaur]

Therefore, I am asking INTPs who were raised in the muslim culture. Is there truly a cultural "East-West" conflict, as media just keep pounding on everyone?

If so, there must be a rational reason for it. Just based on facts, what could be the rational reason for any misunderstanding?

Just asking,

Why are you asking only INTPs? Wouldn't that unnecessarily limit the scope of your question? More importantly, why are you asking only Muslims?

[NoahFence]

"Only Muslims" I can understand, as it's "the other side" in this particular conflict and he's interested if they view the conflict the same way as it's portrayed on this side. Namely, as a conflict, and to what degree.

[NastyNaz]

I was brought up in a wholly Muslim household with my brother, mother and father all being very strong Muslims. Infact, I was a Muslim up until around the age of 12 or 13.

I can safely say that the Media is reporting on, and trying to fuel, a nearly nonexistant fire. No Muslim I've met activtively hates the West or even believes that Islamist extremism is good. The media love to make-out that Muslims just want to kill Westerners and support "Jihad" etc etc.

Asking somebody whether they hate the West or whether they don't like the Western presence in the Middle East are two different questions that the media tend to thing are the same.



From what I have personally seen, I think that lack of information is what is causing the misunderstanding of cultures. A lot of people will hear snippets of biased news from "other people" which then get retold and retold. The same goes with what the Koran actually states, since many Western Muslims do not understand it even though they have read it (I've read it in Arabic yet I cannot understand Arabic).

[Lout]

I was brought up in a wholly Muslim household with my brother, mother and father all being very strong Muslims. Infact, I was a Muslim up until around the age of 12 or 13.

I can safely say that the Media is reporting on, and trying to fuel, a nearly nonexistant fire. No Muslim I've met activtively hates the West or even believes that Islamist extremism is good. The media love to make-out that Muslims just want to kill Westerners and support "Jihad" etc etc.

Asking somebody whether they hate the West or whether they don't like the Western presence in the Middle East are two different questions that the media tend to thing are the same.



From what I have personally seen, I think that lack of information is what is causing the misunderstanding of cultures. A lot of people will hear snippets of biased news from "other people" which then get retold and retold. The same goes with what the Koran actually states, since many Western Muslims do not understand it even though they have read it (I've read it in Arabic yet I cannot understand Arabic).

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[walfin]

you were a muslim, NastyNaz? what do u believe in now?

[Limey]

Moved from Philosophy & Spirituality.
...with a 10ft barge pole!

[djm]

It's McDonalds, dhimmi.

Are Big Macs halal?

Should be BigMcs really then I suppose. Still whatever you call them they are still awful.

[Architectonic]

No Muslim I've met activtively hates the West or even believes that Islamist extremism is good.

You mean you haven't met any Muslims in the west that hates the west. If they really hated the west, then they probably wouldn't be there.

But the reality is that you can't make generalizations about over one billion people based on the observations of a few thousand people.

The one constant that you can rely on is that all humans have the same basic human nature driving their behaviour, although defining this precisely can be difficult.

[taqwa]

Hey there,
The 'problem' with Muslims is precisely what has been pointed out in an earlier thread - that we are 1 billion and by no means monolithic in our understandings and interpretations of Islam. Islam is a text-based religion. So, our scholars help us to interpret and make connections, but by no means are Muslims bound to any interpretations beyond the basic "orthodox" beliefs and practices (belief in God, the angels, Day of Judgment, previous prophets, praying 5x a day, etc.)
That said, this whole islam vs. the west business really emerged from a post-colonial mindset ... but with the huge exodus of Muslims into the western world our view of the west is changing. we no longer see the west as monolithic and are able to appreciate the overlap in ideals and ethics that fomr the basis of much of at least modern American liberal society - like freedom of choice, participation in gov't, social justice, etc.
I could write a thesis on this, and maybe will one day :) but I hope this offers a little insight.
Taqwa

[Trimble]

But the reality is that you can't make generalizations about over one billion people based on the observations of a few thousand people.

I think Taqwa is speaking to another vast generalization that has become part of the average American's understanding of the world, that there is a knee-jerk hatred for all things American out there based on jealousy or puritanism or some other irrational force. There's another question before this though: What is anti-Americanism? If it means mindless hatred of American 'culture' and 'values', then I would have to resolutely agree with Taqwa -- it's just not that way. And that's not necessarily a good thing, since people in the Islamic world buy a lot of our worst cultural vomit wholesale.

On the other hand, if anti-Americanism means opposition to US foreign policy, then that very rational sentiment is quite prevalent in the Islamic world and well beyond. By that standard though just about any American of conscience would also be anti-American. Scott Ritter, for example.

[Yasir]

I am a Muslim (as per my passport and I wont disagree..dont want the price of getting my fifteen minutes of TV time to be my head).

Today a man widely known to be undeserving even by our very low third world country standards has become the President and Chief of All Armed Forces in Pakistan.

Ask anyone here and they are angry not with him or with the Taliban who have literally captured (entirely) the only good tourist city we had, but with the US because the US decides who gets to be President here. Directly. Polictics are pretty basic here. Its a power game and whoever has the nod of the US has the support of our American trained Army/security agencies and the billions required to buy a couple of hundred members of Parliament gets power. The people dont even blame the corrupt politicians because if they hadnt taken the massive bribes (discretionery development grants that dont get spent on development or audited) someone else would have and the politicians have families too and are only human.. Plus if you dont play ball, court cases appear out of thin air and you are arrested or worse tortured or killed.

I fear. The battle is not about ideology. It never is. Not in todays world. Its about money and in that regard I admire, respect and applaud the way the US has played its hand. I would have done the same if I may be so immodest. I am also sure that since I totally trust the neocons or powers that be to be both capable and competent, they will win. I only have to figure out how to join their ranks and not be among the millions whose life or death means nothing and who will continue to lapse in apathy, poverty and disease.

Any suggestions?

[nittanylion302]

Any suggestions?

Move to America

[Yasir]

Trying to. Will 'go west' somewhere if not US.

[Archvile]

Move to America
US dominance is hardly reflected on the average American citizen.
.

[imanilmu]

salam... peace
this is my first post. i am a muslim. i am an INTP.
My religion is scares for me. i will protect it as best as i can. although i am open to discussion. its just if there is to much misunderstanding and ill definition of Islam its just make me sick inside. for example in other forum there sometimes to much negativity about Islam that i just leave. i hope this will not happen in INTP central. salam...peace

[bijosn]

to the guy above me...did you mean..."my religion is sacred to me" ??

if you don't want people challenging your beleifs and convictions then stay away from any forum or community where free rational thinking is encouraged.

wa alykum as-salaam

[YHWH]

salam... peace
this is my first post. i am a muslim. i am an INTP.
My religion is scares for me. i will protect it as best as i can. although i am open to discussion. its just if there is to much misunderstanding and ill definition of Islam its just make me sick inside. for example in other forum there sometimes to much negativity about Islam that i just leave. i hope this will not happen in INTP central. salam...peace

ESFuckingJ.

[Hamakua]

salam... peace
this is my first post. i am a muslim. i am an INTP.
My religion is scares for me. i will protect it as best as i can. although i am open to discussion. its just if there is to much misunderstanding and ill definition of Islam its just make me sick inside. for example in other forum there sometimes to much negativity about Islam that i just leave. i hope this will not happen in INTP central. salam...peace

Hi. I cannot comment on the teachings of Islam but I can comment on religion in general through my understanding of Christianity. I do know they share quite a few of the same principles.

The first mistake of the world at large in general is centered in the Muslim world in that it is "the Muslim world". That is equivalent to me describing the western world as the "christian world". That is the mistake of world media, leaders, and those country states that do not support freedom of religion or the separation of church and state.

All things being equal, let us say Allah existed. He is up there right now, all other religions have it wrong or misinterpreted, Allah is great, Allah is wonderful, etc. etc.

The problem is that his teachings were transcribed by man and preserved by man, so they are susceptible to the weaknesses and faults of man. This can be proven in a vacuum. Presuming Allah exists, and presuming he is all powerful and infallible, the contradictions found in all religious texts are then direct results of the faulty understanding or comprehension of man. And that is on the first draft. Add to that thousands of years of transcribing the text faithfully and corruption is bound to seep it's way into the instruction manual to the soul. -This is faulty cog #1.

Faulty cog #2. is the audience themselves. Humans. Even if the texts were able to be preserved word for word without any tampering or diluting of the original message, our inherent greedy nature would twist what was said in order to interpret it to support our wants.

This can be said of all religions because all known religions are still followed by the same being, man, and man relative to the principals of religion is faulty.

You want to solve world conflict? -leave religion out of it, not because it's not relevant, but because the conflict is between man and man, it has nothing to do with god. You drag any god's name into it and you tarnish that name. The other possibility is that "god" is just an invention by man in order to control the populace in general by manipulating one of our more common fears, the fear of the unknown.

-raised Christian, lived the world, now am atheist/agnostic.

[sandwich]

salam... peace
this is my first post. i am a muslim. i am an INTP.
My religion is scares for me. i will protect it as best as i can. although i am open to discussion. its just if there is to much misunderstanding and ill definition of Islam its just make me sick inside. for example in other forum there sometimes to much negativity about Islam that i just leave. i hope this will not happen in INTP central. salam...peace

Have you read any writings by Nasr Abu Zayd? What do you think of his ideas?

[Anonymous]

All I have to say is that the Qu'ran threatens me with fire and torment even more than Baptists do.

[bijosn]

http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/religion-of-peace1.jpg
http://roguejew.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/muslim11.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjbJnZUJTYU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDd7qJmQ324&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khUGbZsDeR4


If Islam is such a saintly religion then why does anyone who draws a cartoon with muhammed end up with a death fatwa??

[sandwich]

All I have to say is that the Qu'ran threatens me with fire and torment even more than Baptists do.

Time to become a polytheist.

[Roger Mexico]

If Islam is such a saintly religion then why does anyone who draws a cartoon with muhammed end up with a death fatwa??

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but it is nonetheless highly relevant to point out that, at one point in its history (the Middle Ages, if not before), European Christianity often manifested in a very similar "Kill 'em all" attitude.

The difference between Christianity then and now is not so much the result of a change of heart as it is a result of a multi-century effort to relieve institutionalized Christianity of its governmental duties.

I think there's something to the theory that "the Muslim world" is still waiting for its own equivalent of the Christian Reformation. (Hopefully one less bloody in its own right than the Christian one.)

[YHWH]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but it is nonetheless highly relevant to point out that, at one point in its history (the Middle Ages, if not before), European Christianity often manifested in a very similar "Kill 'em all" attitude.

The difference between Christianity then and now is not so much the result of a change of heart as it is a result of a multi-century effort to relieve institutionalized Christianity of its governmental duties.

I think there's something to the theory that "the Muslim world" is still waiting for its own equivalent of the Christian Reformation. (Hopefully one less bloody in its own right than the Christian one.)

That's true, but no one's talking from a Christian Vs Muslim perspective, but rather reason Vs religion.

[Limey]

Religion generally doesn't bother me if it leaves me alone, though in the UK, the levels of pandering and political correctness got silly, for what were essentially Muslim guests, not new Brits because they didn't, haven't and probably never will be fully integrated or self-identify in either a nationalistic or ideological sense. Non-citizen citizens.

Police were told to be sensitive to Pakistani and Afghan Muslims in community policing, for things such as "hocking up" phlegm and spitting it out on the footpaths everywhere they walked, because it was written as such in their book to expunge, meanwhile, I would receive a caution from a police officer if they were to see me spit anything out in public.

In kindergarten, P no longer can stand for "pig", baa baa black sheep has to be baa baa white sheep, it became acceptable for a halal meat van to pull up in the street, filled with live chickens, a prayer and a house brick, (bending sanitation law for the ghetto) the list goes on.

I think that trying to foster multi-culturalism with a one-size-fits-all approach is foolish, especially when concessions are made in one's own legal system for Sharia law provisions.

The Islamic middle-east and the largely Christian west aren't compatible in ideology or practice, while enough sensortards are willing to interpret the written word of each in the literal sense and use faith as an excuse/reason for even more segregation, (in addition to nationality, race, culture etc)

Having said all this, I would offer that "Muslim INTPs" could be an oxymoron to some extent, sure, there could be practicing Muslim INTPs, but it's probably more often like they're going along to keep the peace.

Yes, allah-akbar, yes, kill the infidels etc.

[lowtech redneck]

I've pretty much already said everything I have to say on this subject in the following thread: http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=28174

[thod]

though in the UK,

The difference between Islam in the US and the UK is in the number of Muslims present and their spread. Those in the US tend to be too few to suggest exempting them from federal law. Although a minority in the UK, they tend to cluster and thus seek exemption in the areas they predominate. It is not individual Muslims that create the problem. It is that the more moderate are shouted down by the radicals that seek to implement a theocracy. Those moderates have far more rights in secular UK than they would ever have under the proposed theocracy. As the majority of the UK is non religious, they don't want any of them taking power, Muslim or Christian.

If they want Sharia law, there are plenty of places they can go. They came here and they can leave just as quickly. If they do not wish to live under British culture, they should not have come. Britain is not some place you go to just to make money. It is the home of the British, anyone going there should be prepared to live under British culture, just as a Britain moving to the Middle East should be prepared to live under their rules.

We need to purge the Mosques of the radicals and the Wahabbi firebrands sent by the Saudis that create this trouble. Alas there are some that want holy war, a holy war in Britain will simply lead to the burning of the Mosques under the rise of the skinheads.

[Limey]

We need to purge the Mosques of the radicals and the Wahabbi firebrands sent by the Saudis that create this trouble. Alas there are some that want holy war, a holy war in Britain will simply lead to the burning of the Mosques under the rise of the skinheads.

I agree, I remember in a neighborhood that I lived in, Saddam Hussein sent money and they built "Saddam Hussein mosque" right there on the main road into Birmingham from the motorway.
It's an insult to both sides when the property itself (a holy site) is ultimately targeted and torched, but it can be understood, when the people involved "got played" like pawns.

It would be nice if Britain could have a third party rule, they go from right wing capitalists that turn a blind eye, to left wing socialists that pander and fall over themselves being sycophants. Then maybe they could echo the will and sentiment of the people that have seen their nation disrespected for around a quarter of a century now.

There's no room in any nation for religious radicals and fanatics, especially when they turn out to be funded by an overtly generous benefit system (and multiple wives!)

[imanilmu]

Therefore, I am asking INTPs who were raised in the muslim culture. Is there truly a cultural "East-West" conflict, as media just keep pounding on everyone?

If so, there must be a rational reason for it. Just based on facts, what could be the rational reason for any misunderstanding?

Just asking,

salam... peace.
From my previous post... regarding faith and religion of Islam to the observant muslim it is the UTMOST important. It is not the things that we play about. A true muslim will NEVER consider their faith as a laughing matter and they put their life on it.
To see that when people who dont know much about Islam keep bashing it in every angle its kind of sad. * first we need to understand then be understood*. I have seen, heard and read all to many misinformed information regarding Islam and to make it as a joke.its pathethic.

I want to answer the OP question because he/she wants to know especially from a muslim (INTP) perspective.(that is me).

For
me ISLAM IS THE TRUTH. I love my faith and because of it i can counter alot of difficulties in life especially living as an INTP. I will continue to protect Islam ( with the will of ALLAH ) until the day I die.

maybe to some of you, this kind/type of devotion seem foreign. Rest assure that if you are truly INTP you really want to now the psyche behind it. Why dont you read the Quran.

Salam....Peace

[Neville]

You're not an INTP.

[stigmatica]

I've actually read a good bit of the Quran, and to be honest, it's rather scary. From what I understand, from an orthodox perspective you take the Quran in chronological order. Any contradictions in the Quran are to be nullified by always taking the chronologically later statement as law. Unfortunatly, the prophet M wrote all of the more peaceful aspects of the Quran while in Mecca, which comes first chronologically. He wrote all the "kill, capture, and dismember disbelievers" while in Medina; chronologically last in the Kuran. In Medina, the prophet spent a good deal of his time slaughtering the Jews. Hitler wasn't the first. While in Mecca, he apparently got on well coexisting with the Jews.

As a result, most of the peacful elements are contradicted and cancelled out by the non peacful elements. If you read the last bits of the Kuran (chronolocially last, as it is not written in chronological order), it unambiguously states numerous times that during non sacred months, believers are to kill, capture, and dismember non-believers whereever they see them, even if they are in treaty with them.

Someone tell me how I've been misinformed? How can you be an orthodox Muslim, and yet ignore what are supposed to be the teachings? Do you choose to ignore the writings during the prophets time in Medina? My understanding is that you're not supposed to. Help us understand.

[stigmatica]

Imanilmu, I saw that you read the above post, but apparently you have now left the thread without responding. Why?

[YHWH]

As a result, most of the peacful elements are contradicted and cancelled out by the non peacful elements. If you read the last bits of the Kuran (chronolocially last, as it is not written in chronological order), it unambiguously states numerous times that during non sacred months, believers are to kill, capture, and dismember non-believers whereever they see them, even if they are in treaty with them.


I assume you can quote these verses in context?

[stigmatica]

I assume you can quote these verses in context?
I suppose I could hunt something down, but I'm not really trying to make a statement. I would rather someone tell me that I'm misinformed, and why. I'm hoping I am.

[imanilmu]

I suppose I could hunt something down, but I'm not really trying to make a statement. I would rather someone tell me that I'm misinformed, and why. I'm hoping I am.

salam..peace

First of all I have to state that I am not that knowledgable in Islam compare to more devoted ones ( Islam religion needs lots and lots of studies). But I try to explain it as far as i can.

We must undertand that We should not judge the teaching by looking at the follower but judge it by its teaching.. So from this we need to know where is the core of the teaching of Islam is.... Quran (Islam holy book).

For muslim we believe the Quran is the word of ALLAH GOD. To make sure that it is the book from ALLAH then it should not have mistake or have statement that contradict itself. it only reinforce itself. follow the situation in the chapter.

The problem arise when
- people took a sentence from Quran without reading the whole chapter.
then when they dont know they ask someone that not even muslim to start with or find a muslim that is not knowledgable ones.

- second is even there is a problem regarding the original text in Arabic. whenever the Quran been translated the meaning will be off CERTAINLY. the if you hear the Quran been read the intonation and sound it quite different from the normal conversation of Arab. (the miracle of Quran).

- third. there is a different between the word from Quran and the word from Hadis (word from Prophet Muhammad ). even thou Quran come from prophet Muhammad it is recorded and differentiated from the normal speaking of prophet Muhammad that is the Hadis.Quran word will be intact until the end of time and that is ALLAH conformation on it. Quran have confirmation of its content from ALLAH but the word from prophet Muhammad (hadis) dont have the confirmation that the word will be intact until the end of time. DO NOT BE CONFUSE between QURAN and hadis.
hadis has lower importance then Quran.

That it for now
maybe sometime I reply late because as an INTP I like very much to be a lurker in a data collecting mode. do not like to expose myself. Anyway please seek a devoted muslim regarding Islam if you all want to know more and not some "expert" especially from a distorted media.

anyway I know that to tackle INTP is by logic so why dont you go to google and type harunyahya. www harunyahya com.

salam...peace

[Defensin]

I've actually read a good bit of the Quran, and to be honest, it's rather scary. From what I understand, from an orthodox perspective you take the Quran in chronological order. Any contradictions in the Quran are to be nullified by always taking the chronologically later statement as law. Unfortunatly, the prophet M wrote all of the more peaceful aspects of the Quran while in Mecca, which comes first chronologically. He wrote all the "kill, capture, and dismember disbelievers" while in Medina; chronologically last in the Kuran. In Medina, the prophet spent a good deal of his time slaughtering the Jews. Hitler wasn't the first. While in Mecca, he apparently got on well coexisting with the Jews.

As a result, most of the peacful elements are contradicted and cancelled out by the non peacful elements. If you read the last bits of the Kuran (chronolocially last, as it is not written in chronological order), it unambiguously states numerous times that during non sacred months, believers are to kill, capture, and dismember non-believers whereever they see them, even if they are in treaty with them.

Someone tell me how I've been misinformed? How can you be an orthodox Muslim, and yet ignore what are supposed to be the teachings? Do you choose to ignore the writings during the prophets time in Medina? My understanding is that you're not supposed to. Help us understand.


Most of the war/peace verses addressed specific events and cannot be considered as rules. Instead they are referred to in similar situations by measurement. Few verses are used to directly draw generalizations from and most of those verses have to do with social and economical aspect, politics cannot be bound in the same definitive manner.
As for the jews (the jewish tribe "banu al- natheer") the treatment was a punishment for not respecting the treaty they had with the prophet & their repeated betrayal. It was intended to prohibit further disloyalty by other parties.

I think the verse you are referring (baqara 191-192) to is immediately followed by what's roughly translated to "evacuate them from where they evacuated you" the muslims then -meccis- wanted to go back to thier homes in mecca and retrieve thier dignity so. then the verse goes on "don't fight them in front of the Haram mosque unless they started, If they fought you fight them back. That's the nonbelievers ( of Mecca, specific) penalty" then the next verse clearly states "If they didn't, then Allah is forgiving and merciful" Mecca was in fact entered without shedding blood.
It's impossible to read the quaran without knowledge of the history & understanding of tha era's politics.

I'm curious about the treaty part though, I cannot recall such a verse. A quotation, maybe?

[V Profane]

I only read about a third of the first part, but this woman sounds vaguely INTPish.

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/5029

[catherinemu]

I live in the country that the most populated country is Muslim and I have a best friend, a Muslim. I've asked her about the jihad, terrorist, etc and her answer: "I'm just confused because the jihad actually reserved only when we feel threatened and same as the other religion we can't kill the people that don't harm us." Then I ask again: "So, in your opinion, why the Muslim hate the United States?" She answers: " It's probably just as a feeling of keenship among the Muslim because of the Palestina.:gm:"