Why is INFJ suppose to be the perfect match for an INTP

[darlets]

Hi all,
I've been reading these forum for about a month now and something I'm really curious about is why are INFJ supposed to be the perfect match for INTP. (It's been referred to in a few threads and I've done some looking around the internet and I can't find anything about it)

I've been interested/dated INFJ in the past and while I find them very warm and caring I find that we clash.

Can I get peoples opinions or some links to sites that talk about it.

[Eileen]

I've never read anything that says that INFJs and INTPs are ideal for each other. I, an INFJ, am totally and absolutely in love with an INTP and am willing to work through the very inevitable difficulties.

I think that some INFJs might be really good for some INTPs because INFJs are genuine in wanting to understand people and I think are generally pretty good at figuring out what people need, which is not necessarily something an INTP is going to explicitly communicate within a relationship.

However, one of the things that INTPs need is privacy and space, and that's hard for INFJs to give (but I really do try). I think that when I do get frustrated with my relationship with my boyfriend, it's because I know what he needs but at the time I might really need the opposite thing. *shrug*

[Vagabond]

I don't think INFJ is the perfect match for INTP. INFJs have deep beliefs, INTPs have the habit of challenging everything; INTPs do this in a detached way and can be very blunt, INFJs are emotional and can get hurt by what they will perceive as a cruel attack against what is sacred to them; the INTP won't be able to understand wtf happened and the INFJ got offended. I can smell the smoke and see the blood, can't you..?

(Yeah, they are warm and caring and insightful... I think however they are the most incompatible of the INs for an INTP).

Edit: After reading Eileen's post: It goes without saying that it all depends on how much effort you are willing to put in making a relationship work and in understanding your partner regardless of type... nothing is impossible.

[Nighthawk]

I seem to recall Keirsey, in his book Please Understand Me II, asserting that ENFJs were the "perfect" match for INTPs. However, I believe that any two types can have a happy relationship if they try to understand and respect each other's differences/similarities.

[Edmond Zedo]

I've never read that, and I've read most idears on the subject. INFJ is not one of my favorite types of person.

INTPs may need privacy and space if they don't feel connected with someone, but if I'm in love I need neither.

[Eileen]

Oh, in response to the "deeply held beliefs" comment--I have to admit that my boyfriend and I just really don't talk about faith and religion matters much. It comes up every once in awhile and he's got some pretty deeply but at the same time distantly held beliefs (I think)... but I am pretty guarded with my faith and have been with him since day one. We talk about concepts and ideas and religion(s), but we don't really go into personal beliefs much at all. He certainly knows what my beliefs are because I don't hide them; I just don't give that over to him to judge, really... He respects me and I respect him.

[Eileen]

INTPs may need privacy and space if they don't feel connected with someone, but if I'm in love I need neither.

Well, other INTPs seem to, so perhaps you're just different. You're sure as hell different than the ones I know.

[minger223]

I've also wondered about the need for privacy and space issue before. (I know I'm E so it's not as pressing for me, but...) I sometimes wonder if it's less about privacy and space, than being in a place where someone's presence makes you feel EXACTLY THE SAME as if you were alone. When someone can achieve that state with me, it probably means I love them very much (even though it sounds counterintuitive.).

I think that what is really behind the "need for space" is the "need to not feel nagged." Or like I can't be myself. But that may be the E talking.

[Eileen]

I've also wondered about the need for privacy and space issue before. (I know I'm E so it's not as pressing for me, but...) I sometimes wonder if it's less about privacy and space, than being in a place where someone's presence makes you feel EXACTLY THE SAME as if you were alone. When someone can achieve that state with me, it probably means I love them very much (even though it sounds counterintuitive.).

I think that what is really behind the "need for space" is the "need to not feel nagged." Or like I can't be myself. But that may be the E talking.

I think this is insightful. When I say that I need to give my bf space and privacy, I don't mean that I need to leave the house or even the room. But if he's reading or writing something, I've learned that it's not the best time for me to bitch about work or cry about whatever the hell I feel like crying about at the time.

[Geoff]

Well, other INTPs seem to, so perhaps you're just different. You're sure as hell different than the ones I know.

Agreed, it sounds like EZ is feeling that 'love' thing where his basic personality is overwhelmed by emotion and hormones. I am sure that will wear off over time ;)
Surely he cant stay agreeable and happy to share all his space for ever with a partner....

-Geoff

[Geoff]

I think this is insightful. When I say that I need to give my bf space and privacy, I don't mean that I need to leave the house or even the room. But if he's reading or writing something, I've learned that it's not the best time for me to bitch about work or cry about whatever the hell I feel like crying about at the time.

Oh, such an important lesson. You guys have it made. That is not an easy thing (being married to an ISFJ - not the same, of course) I know what these issues are like. She has learned the "I know I dont need to leave the room but just need to chill for a while and not bitch abour work" lesson mostly..

-Geoff

[Edmond Zedo]

Agreed, it sounds like EZ is feeling that 'love' thing where his basic personality is overwhelmed by emotion and hormones. I am sure that will wear off over time ;)
Surely he cant stay agreeable and happy to share all his space for ever with a partner....

-Geoff
You don't know me. But I know me.

[darlets]

I don't think INFJ is the perfect match for INTP. INFJs have deep beliefs, INTPs have the habit of challenging everything; INTPs do this in a detached way and can be very blunt, INFJs are emotional and can get hurt by what they will perceive as a cruel attack against what is sacred to them; the INTP won't be able to understand wtf happened and the INFJ got offended. I can smell the smoke and see the blood, can't you..?

(Yeah, they are warm and caring and insightful... I think however they are the most incompatible of the INs for an INTP).

Edit: After reading Eileen's post: It goes without saying that it all depends on how much effort you are willing to put in making a relationship work and in understanding your partner regardless of type... nothing is impossible.

I didn't want to lead the thread somewhere but that's been my experience with INFJ, that make an idealistic heartfelt comment and I point out it's pros and cons and they get upset or I point out i don't agree and they get upset.
I'm not a big fan of upsetting people so I tend to let alot slide now.

I've never read they're the perfect match in a book, it's just mentioned in some of threads, though maybe I'm misreading it (e.g an INFJ going out with an INTP has said it)

I tend to clash with INFJ and get along with ENFJ's. Though saying this, I have one good INFJ and she is one of the nices, well round people I've ever meet.

[heeroyuy]

Most of the INFJs I've met call me cold and distant, and usually we fall out with one another, and the NF that links us as "friends of friends" will act to preserve peace by changing the subject very quickly.

I don't think I'd mesh well with most F's, the issue being that I don't want someone who's (no offense) clingy. I don't like it when people obsess over me or being around me, I like someone quietly around me who cares about me, but who doesn't always need me there and is very independent, who won't be offended by me doing my thing for awhile and likes to discuss things in heated debates then laugh about how it's cool.

Bleh.

[spirilis]

I think it's a matter of complementarity.
Like the arguments that INTP and ESFJ are well suited. The main argument behind that is the FJ vs. TP portion--Fe balancing Ti.

Except for INTP and INFJ, you have the FJ vs. TP complementarity (although not as pronounced since Fe is INFJ's secondary), while sharing the quirks of an IN** composure.

That said, INFJs are a double-edged sword for me: On one hand, I can relate comfortably with the IN** type personalities. On the other hand, the FJ vs. TP can be grounds for... EXTREME friction, except the battleground is in familiar territory, unlike ESFJ where they seem to be in a totally different world to me.
The good part is, when complementarity of TP/FJ works, the joy is felt in familiar territory too.

[spirilis]

Oh, also, Keirsey does say INTP - ENFJ should be good... Personally I think he's full of shit on that. His scheme for matching types for mating involves switching the temperament while sharing the S or N, and then flip-flopping the first and last letter. B.S.

[songbird36]

I wouldn't date an INFJ guy, or an INFP, and don't know any anyway.

But I may date an ENFJ or ENFP. Those types are said to be compatible with INTJ (from what I have read on this issue).

[darlets]

What is people ideas about the ideal match between types?

Alot of what I've read always seems to suggestion
Extraverts with introverts but I don't think works. I think it more important to have people around your level of E/I, so some one will be more extraverted but that doesn't mean they're an extravert.

[Edmond Zedo]

www.socionics.com/rel/rel.htm

Be sure of your Socionics type.

[jyakulis]

www.socionics.com/rel/rel.htm

Be sure of your Socionics type.

nice gender man lol

[minger223]

yeah i don't understand why they say go for the opposite in terms of E and I; i also agree that having someone near your E/I level is SO key. And for g-d's sake, why do these damn things always pair us up with J's?!?!?

[SensEye]

I think this is insightful. When I say that I need to give my bf space and privacy, I don't mean that I need to leave the house or even the room. But if he's reading or writing something, I've learned that it's not the best time for me to bitch about work or cry about whatever the hell I feel like crying about at the time.If you can take the next step and figure out the best time to bitch about work or cry is when you are with your NF girlfriends and he is nowhere around, you will really be in business!;)

On the best type matches, it seems various MBTI sources have different suggestions. I think I agree with Keirsey with his ENFJ, but it's hard to say. Individuals vary greatly even within a single personality type.

[minger223]

I think that it's not the J's who I don't like, but J's who try to change you and make you like them. Maybe the ideal is a J who doesn't try to make you like them.

[Eileen]

I really don't choose my romantic partners by their MBTI type. It's useful info once we're in the relationship, and it can probably be said that I'm not particularly attracted to say, ESTPs, but I don't use type to choose mates; I use type to relate to the ones who I get involved with.





And--Eeek. Clingy. It's much about perception, I've realized. The word "clingy" is a Big Red Button for me. When I feel insecure and I find that I'm ACTUALLY being clingy, I freak out and back the eff off and go cry by myself (I have a pretty weird Fi process; I don't deal well with it at all because I have this notion that having my own feelings is selfish, which is bullshit but that's often how I handle them). But when people use the word "clingy" for F types who just need their feelings to be recognized and addressed, I get a little irritated because it's like they're saying that needing that is inherently damaging to a relationship when it shouldn't be. Likewise, "distant" is a semantic problem, because needing space shouldn't be inherently damaging either. These needs are not character flaws; they're just needs. Some are more well-equipped to deal with needs than others are.


It may be that Morgan and I work out well enough because we both are pretty close on the F/T line. He really doesn't give me shit about my feeling stuff because he knows that it's just something that I need. He also knows that I'll always listen to him if he needs to get something off of his chest (which isn't terribly frequent, but happens). And I have learned how to give him space and not intrude when it's clearly not a good time (unless it's some kind of emergency, at which time he is nearly always willing to wrap me up in his arms while I cry or freak out).

[Eileen]

If you can take the next step and figure out the best time to bitch about work or cry is when you are with your NF girlfriends and he is nowhere around, you will really be in business!;)


Well, to some extent, I think that it's fair that he listen to me bitch and cry sometimes if I'm going to make an effort to meet HIS needs. It's not fair to expect me to make all of the sacrifices. And he doesn't expect me to, which is why the relationship works.

[SensEye]

Well, to some extent, I think that it's fair that he listen to me bitch and cry sometimes if I'm going to make an effort to meet HIS needs. It's not fair to expect me to make all of the sacrifices. And he doesn't expect me to, which is why the relationship works.True. It was meant tongue in cheek (not that it isn't true to some extent, hence the smiley). Relationships are all about compromise, or so I've been told.

[minger223]

Nah i ultimately agree with you Eileen. I don't screen for type. I just go after who I'm attracted to.

About the needy/clingy issue. I'm only going to speak for myself. While I still find the concept useful, over the past few years I've come to realize that I had only perceived clingyness when I felt that someone emotional actually DEMANDED something of me that I couldn't possibly give. But that was the result of growing up around very immature F types. After meeting more mature F's, I've realized that i don't need to feel an obligation or pressure when i am "needed." I don't haev to even do that much but listen and ask questions and hug, all of which i enjoy doing anyways. :)

It's just a matter of determining who the mature Fs and the immature Fs are.

[darlets]

It's just a matter of determining who the mature Fs and the immature Fs are.

This is an important point I've only just discovered. Sometimes I'm trying to figure out why I clash with someone using the MBTI and sometimes it's just that
their (and sometimes mine) behaviour/expectation isn't reasonable. It's not that I'm a T and their an F or J/P etc.

[MasterMerk]

I'm not clingy.

[songbird36]

I'm not clingy.

Oh damn...

:lol:

[MasterMerk]

I am entirely lost as to what you mean, songbird. :whistle:

[andthesunburnedouttonight]

My mom is an INFJ.

[Eileen]

My mom is an INFJ.

lol--so is this justification for or against the pairing of INTPs and INFJs?

(My dad is an INTP--I NEVER thought I'd end up with someone similar to him! But I did...)

[Nighthawk]

Architects (INTP) and Teachers (ENFJ) are apt to share a rare compatibility. The reserved and probing INTPs, all too easily lost in their abstract designs and desire for coherence, can despair of ever finding a mate who will listen to them and appreciate their visions. Fortunately, the expressive and schedule-minded ENFJs, brimming with ideas in their own right, are catalysts of the personal growth process in others, able to bring out the best in others with inspiring personal enthusiasm. All the Idealists seem to have this facilitative capability to some degree, but ENFJs seem to have it in abundance - and INTPs find this combination of intellectual spark and personal sparkle quite irresistable.
... and also ...



Marriage to an Idealist is probably the best option for a Rational. NTs and NFs share an abiding interest in the abstract, internal world, and so can find with each other a companionship of ideas, a mutual love of insights and concepts, even a similar fluency with abstract language, that bond them securely. At the same time, NFs bring a personal warmth to their relationships with people which appeals to the analytical, self-controlled NTs and helps them put aside their work and take time for personal life.

[Edmond Zedo]

... and also ...
Keirsey's ENFJ rant sounds a lot like the INTP-ENFJ rel. from socionics, only Keirsey doesn't describe it nearly as negatively. It's a lopsided match.

http://www.socionics.com/rel/sp.htm

[Nighthawk]

Keirsey's ENFJ rant sounds a lot like the INTP-ENFJ rel. from socionics, only Keirsey doesn't describe it nearly as negatively. It's a lopsided match.

http://www.socionics.com/rel/sp.htm
Oh ... the negative stuff? I conveniently left that out ;)

[SensEye]

At the same time, NFs bring a personal warmth to their relationships with people which appeals to the analytical, self-controlled NTs and helps them put aside their work and take time for personal life. Personally, I find this aspect of NF behaviour very appealing.

[Nighthawk]

... and the negative, according to Keirsey.



Conflicts, of course, are inherent in both areas of Rational-Idealist attraction. If sharing ideas with an NT means arguing over definitions, logical categories, and necessary consequences, it is onerous to NFs, who are willing to engage in such debates only for short periods of time, and only if the discussion remains friendly. And conflict between the NT's cool resistance to showing emotion and the NF's desire for emotional expressiveness is an endless problem in their relationships, though one that is usually overshadowed by these two temperaments' rare compatibility.

[Eileen]

NFs and NTs can work just fine together as long as they're willing to accept and work around their differences. There can be no exact science to choosing a mate; one of the reasons that I'm very turned off by socionics is that it seems to want to make a science of it. When you encounter a person, she'll have a MB type, but she's also going to have an archive of experiences that will affect her behavior. Type is useful, but it's not the end of the line in understanding a person.

[Nighthawk]

NFs and NTs can work just fine together as long as they're willing to accept and work around their differences. There can be no exact science to choosing a mate; one of the reasons that I'm very turned off by socionics is that it seems to want to make a science of it. When you encounter a person, she'll have a MB type, but she's also going to have an archive of experiences that will affect her behavior. Type is useful, but it's not the end of the line in understanding a person.
I agree, which is probably why I'm very happy with my ISFJ wife, even though MBTI tends to indicate that type of pairing will have problems. Of coure, knowing the negatives and the reasons behind them helps quite a bit. I don't take it personally when she becomes ultra-SJ and she has learned to accept some of my less endearing NT traits.

[secretsmile]

Eileen - I liked your responses to this thread. It seems like a lot of what you describe is similar to what I experience as an INFP married to an INTP. Especially the part about needing our feelings to be acknowledged and validated by our partners.

[musttry]

I wanted to comment on the need for space issue in relationships. Although it's true that any introvert needs more space to recover, I find that men in general need to seperate from their SO. In Eileen's case, this might just be the fact that her bf needs to retreat to his cave for a (short or long) while. I'm not sure this is a type thing or just a mars and venus thing.

[durentu]

Hi all,
I've been reading these forum for about a month now and something I'm really curious about is why are INFJ supposed to be the perfect match for INTP. (It's been referred to in a few threads and I've done some looking around the internet and I can't find anything about it)

I've been interested/dated INFJ in the past and while I find them very warm and caring I find that we clash.

Can I get peoples opinions or some links to sites that talk about it.

Just to point out a fallacy.

Just because there are INTP + INFJ relationships that work, doesn't mean that an INTP should find INFJ mates.

The primary criteria for choosing a mate isn't a 4 letter code. Other things matched before MBTI was discovered.

"I'm INTP and you are INFJ !!" clothes fly off and mythic sex happens.

But generally, probably not.

What is more probable is that they have met each other at a common hobby. hanging out, library, working on projects whatever.


From Keirsey's book, NT and NFs get along quite well. As we all know, communication is the most important part of a relationship and the style of communication definitely helps. NT and NF both speak in abstract and generally follow the same wavelength.

While you may find success in finding an INFJ and some success hitting it off, just show up at events that you are interested in. You'll probably find someone better that way.

[stuck]

My mom is an INFJ.

so...ya wanna bone her or not?

[jyng1]

"I'm INTP and you are INFJ !!" clothes fly off and mythic sex happens.

Hmm, there might be lots of things that are great about an INTP/INFJ pairing, but IME this isn't one of them. That's what God made SP/NPs for.

[PerreaultStat3]

I've never read anything that says that INFJs and INTPs are ideal for each other. I, an INFJ, am totally and absolutely in love with an INTP and am willing to work through the very inevitable difficulties.

"I think that some INFJs might be really good for some INTPs because INFJs are genuine in wanting to understand people and I think are generally pretty good at figuring out what people need, which is not necessarily something an INTP is going to explicitly communicate within a relationship.

However, one of the things that INTPs need is privacy and space, and that's hard for INFJs to give (but I really do try). I think that when I do get frustrated with my relationship with my boyfriend, it's because I know what he needs but at the time I might really need the opposite thing. *shrug* "


Any Advice for an INTP struggling with an INFJ relationship?

[Kaj]

I've only just started to consider these personality types, but I would say that an INFJ is certainly the most appealing type that I could fall in love (be infatuated) with -- in fact, as of right now, I would say they are the only kind.

I'll try to say why from my INTP perspective:
-Firstly, they would innately understand, and work on understanding, my need for solitude.
-With much of humanity seeming irrational, there is something wonderful about someone who seems to be pure and consistent in their principals and emotions. Perhaps this is systemic beauty.
-They can counterbalance my unhealthy inward, cranial existence, and bring to my attention works of wonder and beauty in the world.
-At the same time, they would be patient with my projects, and thereby help them to fruition.
-They would counterbalance the negativity of my critical approach, with representations of positivity and hope.

bah... I think there's more to say, but it's difficult to express.

I THINK I'm describing INFJs here, correct me if I'm wrong. Sadlly, I haven't dated this type yet, but I have met them, and longed for them. Anyone know how common are they (amongst females) ;)

[IheartWW]

Kaj,
I wouldn't get too hung up on personality typing in looking for that special someone. Its good you are aware of your own quirks and needs, but each of those little letters falls on a continuum. And, an individual's life experience is going to dictate how those little tendencies manifest themselves. A fellow INTP could introduce you to the beauty of the world, if that's what she ruminates on inside her head. . . And she certainly understands the need for space and wont likely be stingy granting it, will appreciate your need for projects--though you are the only one who can bring them to fruition. At least she wont hassle you for not finishing them. . . Being a critic can be constructive, positive, and helpful. Depends on her innate disposition or skills in spinning her delivery.

Just sayin', IMHO. . .
I'm just a newbie :)

[Kaj]

Hi IheartWW. Of course, but when we idolize, we jump to extremes. I'm talking about the dream girl.

My previous post is backwards-rationalising. That's to say: I didn't deduce this feeling analytically; I really only do 'fall in love' with this type of girl. Until now, I hadn't thought about it, I'm just now trying to understand it. And since this is infatuation, I realise that those things I expect from dreamy girls may be fallacious. I've been with a fair few non-INFJs girls, and, while I've had fun, I've not had the same feelings for them.

As for being with a fellow INTP -- you could be right, I'm trying to think now if I know any female INTPs. I would have thought that an INTP would be fixated on analysis, like me, not aesthetic appreciation. Also what I ideally need is someone who would break my worst habits, not accommodate them, to leave energy for my productive ones. I'm not sure it'd be healthy for me to date anyone like myself.

[composer]

One word - mindmates. My wife is an INFJ

[Ace_]

Both have Ti and Fe, both intuitive, but yet so different. Sounds like it should work.

[IheartWW]

As for being with a fellow INTP -- you could be right, I'm trying to think now if I know any female INTPs. I would have thought that an INTP would be fixated on analysis, like me, not aesthetic appreciation. Also what I ideally need is someone who would break my worst habits, not accommodate them, to leave energy for my productive ones. I'm not sure it'd be healthy for me to date anyone like myself.

I think there are plenty of INTPs with a developed aesthetic sense, maybe because they lean toward SF. But, even so, there's another way to look at it (I love Google!):

"I have a friend who's an artist and has sometimes taken a view which I don't agree with very well. He'll hold up a flower and say "look how beautiful it is," and I'll agree. Then he says "I as an artist can see how beautiful this is but you as a scientist take this all apart and it becomes a dull thing," and I think that he's kind of nutty. First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people and to me too, I believe. Although I may not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is ... I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. At the same time, I see much more about the flower than he sees. I could imagine the cells in there, the complicated actions inside, which also have a beauty. I mean it's not just beauty at this dimension, at one centimeter; there's also beauty at smaller dimensions, the inner structure, also the processes. The fact that the colors in the flower evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; it means that insects can see the color. It adds a question: does this aesthetic sense also exist in the lower forms? Why is it aesthetic? All kinds of interesting questions which the science knowledge only adds to the excitement, the mystery and the awe of a flower. It only adds. I don't understand how it subtracts."
— Richard P. Feynman

Regarding projects--I'll admit I'm biased (go figure). I think all projects teach us something or open us up to new discoveries and have intrinsic value. Putting that aside, an INTP with diplomatic skills could use her analytical mind to help you identify worthwhile projects and give plenty of reasons as to why you should pursue them. . .

Now I'm trying to remember what it was even like to be single. I have to say my list of the ideal man consisted of traits I'd learned the hard way to avoid! And, what he'd have to be able to tolerate in me, once the initial flush of romance had worn off. So many people are injured by an INTPs need for alone time, not to mention our dislike of the filleting of our souls, pouring out our deepest, innermost feelings on a regular basis. Bleh. I almost wish I'd had a well thought out set of traits I was looking for. . . But it all ended up well in the end!

[Feller]

"I have a friend who's an artist and has sometimes taken a view which I don't agree with very well. He'll hold up a flower and say "look how beautiful it is," and I'll agree. Then he says "I as an artist can see how beautiful this is but you as a scientist take this all apart and it becomes a dull thing," and I think that he's kind of nutty. First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people and to me too, I believe. Although I may not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is ... I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. At the same time, I see much more about the flower than he sees. I could imagine the cells in there, the complicated actions inside, which also have a beauty. I mean it's not just beauty at this dimension, at one centimeter; there's also beauty at smaller dimensions, the inner structure, also the processes. The fact that the colors in the flower evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; it means that insects can see the color. It adds a question: does this aesthetic sense also exist in the lower forms? Why is it aesthetic? All kinds of interesting questions which the science knowledge only adds to the excitement, the mystery and the awe of a flower. It only adds. I don't understand how it subtracts."
— Richard P. Feynman

Fuckin' magnets!