NT-NT or NT-NF?

[andthesunburnedouttonight]

Sorry if I seem ignorant (I haven't read Keirsey), but it seems that most sites suggest that NTs are best matched romantically with NFs. However, Personalitypage.com says that people should seek someone with the SAME temperament, but the opposite "other two" letters (so INTP-ENTJ). What do you guys think?

If this has already been discussed up the ass, I don't apologize. Just get over yourself and answer the question.

[garak]

It seems like theory breaks down when it comes to this stuff. It is pretty widely accepted that INFJs are just about the "best" match for INTPs, yet hardly any of the type sites say that. And they all seem to suggest different types as "best" matches. ESTJ, ENTJ, ENFJ, I can't even remember all of the ones I've seen.

Same-type (INTP+INTP) relationships are also something that is rarely mentioned, but can do very well.

[Mariel]

I think both would work well. NF-NT relationships have annoying aspects, but the annoyances create sparks. NT-NT might be easier but there would be less passion.

[Lee]

I know I am attracted to NF's more than NT's, but an NT relationaship might run more smoothly.

[garak]

I think both would work well. NF-NT relationships have annoying aspects, but the annoyances create sparks. NT-NT might be easier but there would be less passion.
I dunno, I think that is somewhat of a misconception. The NF "sparks" for me seem to die off due to the frustration of T vs. F. It's hard to have sparks with someone who you are beginning to think of as being stupid. And by far the most passionate insane situation I've been in was with an NT. But.. that's just me. I can definitely see how two NTs could be rather "cold."

[Arioch]

Myers book "Gifts Differing" said that the most successfull relation ships were with people who shared 3 letters in their Type.

The thing about MBTI and dating is that it can only measure what happens inside of its theoretical model. This is why using MBTI for determaining which Type fits best with which Type will ultimately fail.

MBTI's strength in this is rather using the theoretical model on a already existing relationship. Although perhaps we might individually have a Type that seems to fit better with us (individually) then other Types but this seems to be more determained by our enviroment. Previous relationships, perhaps even your parents Type!

[Mariel]

In my experience, both parties in the NF-NT relationship think the other is stupid quite often. There's a failure to communicate properly because of that T/F frustration. I do speak specifically of ENFP/INTP interaction. NTs think NFs are unintellectual because they don't use hard logic in their approach to an issue. And NFs are driven crazy by the NT's refusal to validate any "illogical" or feeling aspects to the debate. There's mystery in unraveling the other's ideas. When mutual and fundamental respect is had for both people's intelligence, it works. But I've found the only way to end a conflict is to eventually just drop it. Fighting goes nowhere.

However, I will say that having knowledge of MBTI & function preferences helps greatly when dealing with this kind of communication breakdown.

[Edmond Zedo]

It always helps to use non-verbal communication almost exclusively. :whistle:

[andthesunburnedouttonight]

I just can't imagine being really satisfied by an NF. I'm surrounded by NFs constantly, and they just bore me. I'm not sure if I've interacted with female NTs much, and I would be very interested to see what that would be like.

[misutii]

as long as their variant isnt soc

[CreativeChaos]

In my experience, both parties in the NF-NT relationship think the other is stupid quite often. There's a failure to communicate properly because of that T/F frustration. I do speak specifically of ENFP/INTP interaction. NTs think NFs are unintellectual because they don't use hard logic in their approach to an issue. And NFs are driven crazy by the NT's refusal to validate any "illogical" or feeling aspects to the debate. There's mystery in unraveling the other's ideas. When mutual and fundamental respect is had for both people's intelligence, it works. But I've found the only way to end a conflict is to eventually just drop it. Fighting goes nowhere.

However, I will say that having knowledge of MBTI & function preferences helps greatly when dealing with this kind of communication breakdown.

I totally agree with this. I see a large part of what goes on here as "stupid". NFs seem to have a "value" logic. And if that logic isn't followed then the person is "stupid". It was probably an NF who came up with The Emotional IQ. Heh! :devil: And the emotional IQ here is.... (well, now, uhh... hhhmm..)

I don't see how INFJs would be that different at all than INFPs or any other NF regarding the best type for and NT.

According to Kiersy, NTs want a "mind-mate", NFs want a "soul-mate". I can see from some of the discussion on here that I would be driven nuts with the Einstein logic crap. And I know my INFJ friend would be too. You would still have the T/F problem.

Also, there is no way an NF would be able to handle the "mind" exercises and things you guys go through here. ANY NF. Ask Eileen. Can she really handle the heavy duty discussions? Except for the religious stuff, which is very NF. Do you see any NFs in the computer discussions? Notice where NFs show up here, and where they don't.

So you will NOT get a "mind-mate" from an NF.

[Architectonic]

NFs tend to have the most sparks for me. I never see NFs as stupid, just slightly different in some ways.


It is pretty widely accepted that INFJs are just about the "best" match for INTPs

I'm just curious which sources suggest this? I'm not disagreeing, I'd just like to know which sites (or books) suggest this.


It always helps to use non-verbal communication almost exclusively. :whistle:

Even in INTP-INTP relationships?

[CreativeChaos]

NFs tend to have the most sparks for me. I never see NFs as stupid, just slightly different in some ways.



I'm just curious which sources suggest this? I'm not disagreeing, I'd just like to know which sites (or books) suggest this.



Even in INTP-INTP relationships?


NTs still have the most sparks for me, also, Arch, in real life.

(Although I have never met and ENFJ, which is what some say is the best type for an INFP.)

[s0978]

Also, there is no way an NF would be able to handle the "mind" exercises and things you guys go through here. ANY NF. Ask Eileen. Can she really handle the heavy duty discussions? Except for the religious stuff, which is very NF. Do you see any NFs in the computer discussions? Notice where NFs show up here, and where they don't.
.

Hello, I think Eileen has handled herself quite capably in some heavy duty discussions. Maybe she’s not in the computer threads because she’s not in the computer industry?

I know quite a few NFs who are fierce debators/intellectuals, like my friend who is a criminal defense lawyer and another who is a neurologist and... .

I think this was post very type-ist of you, CC – and not so nice to Eileen, either. Never let it be said that it's only the INTPs doing the type stereotyping/discrimination/bashing/whatever.

[garak]

I'm just curious which sources suggest this? I'm not disagreeing, I'd just like to know which sites (or books) suggest this.
That's exactly the point I was making -- sites and books generally don't suggest it; people do.

[Eileen]

I think that a really fundamental difference between NFs and NTs is NOT the capacity to learn/understand/grasp concepts and theories, but the ways which we value knowledge/intellect. NTs seem to be satisfied with knowledge for knowledge's sake. NFs need to USE knowledge to do something good for humanity.

[s0978]

I think that a really fundamental difference between NFs and NTs is NOT the capacity to learn/understand/grasp concepts and theories, but the ways which we value knowledge/intellect. NTs seem to be satisfied with knowledge for knowledge's sake. NFs need to USE knowledge to do something good for humanity.

I agree. And see? Here's an NF who is being precise, concise, and emotionally composed, despite just having gotten shat on.

[CreativeChaos]

Hello, I think Eileen has handled herself quite capably in some heavy duty discussions. Maybe she’s not in the computer threads because she’s not in the computer industry?

I know quite a few NFs who are fierce debators/intellectuals, like my friend who is a criminal defense lawyer and another who is a neurologist and... .

I think this was post very type-ist of you, CC – and not so nice to Eileen, either. Never let it be said that it's only the INTPs doing the type stereotyping/discrimination/bashing/whatever.

Heh! Oh no. You take my intentions wrongly. I myself handle heavy duty discussions very well, too. Especially if they include religion. I belong to several disscussion groups and that is what we do. I can be a fierce debator and intellectual as well. And I notice that you took my post as an insult. That is because as an NT you value being able to be an debator and intellectual. I am wondering if Eileen saw it as an insult.

I would not have. That is because as an NF, being an intellectual debator is NOT one of my values. If I had said she was being unkind in the way she is handling herself on this forum, you would see her jumping right in saying "what?". Plus, where is it she is debating? (I dont' know, but it seems to me I see her more in the middle of NF/NT stuff and religious stuff.) Ohno, is another example. She rants, but from what I have seen it is on a more personal level. Ranting about her boyfriend and so on.

I have not really looked into the NFs and how they behave on this forum. It's because I already "know" how they are. It is you NTs, that are somewhat of a mystery.

[Nighthawk]

Keirsey, in his book Please Understand Me II, suggests that an ENFJ is the best match for an INTP. All I know is that I've had really good relationships with both an INFJ and an INFP. There was enough mindmate there for me, and I certainly did not think either one stupid. There were problems validating emotions however, but we did work through them without major issues.

I ended up marrying an ISFJ and am very happy with her. Some of my wilder theories and abstract ideas are too much for her, but fortunately I have some NT friends with whom I can discuss those. One thing I really love about my ISFJ is ... no drama.

[CreativeChaos]

I agree. And see? Here's an NF who is being precise, concise, and emotionally composed, despite just having gotten shat on.

It seem we were composing posts at the same time s0523. I just realized, also, that Eileen is married to an INTP, is she not? I think this is certainly the greatest aide in understanding the INTP nature.

She has an advantage on me. ;)

[Eileen]

Actually, I did find the post a little insulting (and I did start writing my post after yours, CC), but I also figured that CC didn't mean it to be so.

[CreativeChaos]

I think that a really fundamental difference between NFs and NTs is NOT the capacity to learn/understand/grasp concepts and theories, but the ways which we value knowledge/intellect. NTs seem to be satisfied with knowledge for knowledge's sake. NFs need to USE knowledge to do something good for humanity.

Exactly Eileen. We are abstract thinkers just like NTs. But our feeling combined with it does not lead us to the objective subjects, such as computers, the hard sciences and so on. (Although it is suprising that you will find top INFP scientists, they are the few though).

NFs gravitate towards the humanities, social sciences, psychology and so on in the hopes of making the world a kinder, gentler place to live in.

[CreativeChaos]

Actually, I did find the post a little insulting (and I did start writing my post after yours, CC), but I also figured that CC didn't mean it to be so.

Oh, really? Okay, sorry Eileen. :blush: I stand corrected.

[CreativeChaos]

Keirsey, in his book Please Understand Me II, suggests that an ENFJ is the best match for an INTP. All I know is that I've had really good relationships with both an INFJ and an INFP. There was enough mindmate there for me, and I certainly did not think either one stupid. There were problems validating emotions however, but we did work through them without major issues.

I ended up marrying an ISFJ and am very happy with her. Some of my wilder theories and abstract ideas are too much for her, but fortunately I have some NT friends with whom I can discuss those. One thing I really love about my ISFJ is ... no drama.

Yes. In real life I have known two INTPs. One, the boyfriend I had, and the other INTP in our discussion group. They were both kind and friendly. It's just that there seems to be so much bickering on this forum, that does not fit in with the two INTPs I have known. And a lot of it I call "stupid". I only chose that word because it was the original word selected.

I have notice an number of INFPs marrying ISTJs. And you and Geoff have married ISFJs. That is curious.

[Eileen]

Oh, really? Okay, sorry Eileen. :blush: I stand corrected.


Forgiven.



(Although it is suprising that you will find top INFP scientists, they are the few though).

My bet is that those top INFP scientists are in it for the good they can do, though.

[CreativeChaos]

Forgiven.




My bet is that those top INFP scientists are in it for the good they can do, though.

Yep, you got it. I could easily go into neurology, because I find the brain to be fascinating and understanding the human being is definately an INFP thing to do and an NF thing in general.

It is the reason behind the act, that is different.

[s0978]

Well, this is really very interesting. Eileen was insulted but is still trying to preserve CC's feelings, forgives her instantly. Are you NFs very evolved, or do you take too much shit?

I don't know, you NFs are pretty mysterious - interesting - to me.


Keirsey, in his book Please Understand Me II, suggests that an ENFJ is the best match for an INTP.

Back to thread, does anyone have any INTP + ENFJ experiences to report on?

[Eileen]

Well, this is really very interesting. Eileen was insulted but is still trying to preserve CC's feelings, forgives her instantly. Are you NFs very evolved, or do you take too much shit?

I don't know, you NFs are pretty mysterious - interesting - to me.

Maybe a little bit of both? I know that I take too much shit in my classroom (though I heard through the grapevine yesterday that in another class, someone mentioned that I am the nicest person in the world but that sometimes I have to get mean, even though I don't want to, else I will be walked all over--so maybe I'm doing okay after all...).

I pick my battles. I admit that I actually did type out a more direct response to CC (though it still wasn't mean by anyone's standards) but then I decided that it wasn't really worth pursuing in that way, especially since, knowing CC, she didn't really mean it to be insulting.

[Eileen]

I only know one potential ENFJ (rather, I'm only close to one ENFJ) and I can't imagine a relationship between her and an INTP. That might just be her, though, and she's also a potential ESFJ. The good thing about ENFJs is that they aren't overwhelming in their extraversion, which I think is important when pairing an E up with an I.

[MasterMerk]

The thing is, NF's can differ dramatically from each other because "values" aren't neccesarily universal. They change depending on the individual, and they can alter the very way in which we percieve the world around us.

The way it works for me is that I take in information, I assess it's validy and It's importance - I then place it somewhere based on a scheme of relevance to be accessed whenever. The way to fully develop an inclusive and objective belief system is to allow it open to change, and not to hold any idea as the absolute truth. The problem occurs when a belief is held onto too tightly, and any information that conflicts with this belief is turned away, locked outside, without proper assessment. This hindering any further development of the individual.

Some NFs can get caught on a belief and may seem unable to comprehend other sides of an issue because of this. A fully developed NF, however, would be able to acknowledge the good, the bad and the ugly whle still being able to focus on her own personal values.

As far as NFs avoiding "deep logical discussion", it's really just a matter of interest. The fact that NTs are more global in their approach gives them the upper edge, but a well developed NF could hold her own any day.

[CreativeChaos]

The thing is, NF's can differ dramatically from each other because "values" aren't neccesarily universal. They change depending on the individual, and they can alter the very way in which we percieve the world around us.

...

Some NFs can get caught on a belief and may seem unable to comprehend other sides of an issue because of this. A fully developed NF, however, would be able to acknowledge the good, the bad and the ugly whle still being able to focus on her own personal values.

As far as NFs avoiding "deep logical discussion", it's really just a matter of interest. The fact that NTs are more global in their approach gives them the upper edge, but a well developed NF could hold her own any day.

I would say NFs are quick to forgive and take other peoples feelings greatly into account. If we are such a mystery and if you are curious enough you could go to our site at INFP@globalchatter.com and check us out. I am pkchi12 over there. It's a much slower site, people have much longer posts. It never gets chatty like this site. Really incredibly different. That's what I found so fascinating when I came over here. The difference!!! I was like, WOW! I don't think most of the INFPs have bothered to check over here, though. I don't know really.

And, yes, when it comes to "my" subjects that I really like I can certainly hold my own, and really love philisophicol disscussion. Me and my INFJ friend have philisophical discussions all the time. But they center around people, human beings, human behavior, why we are like we are, sociology, anthropology, etc. The philosophy discussion groups I go to are like that too. You would think I was an Extravert there, because I talk quite a bit. And there is a general agreement to disagree. It's a very friendly group. We disagree, but keep it friendly.

And, in actuality, if you think about it MM, NFs are not that radically different. They may hold different religious beliefs, and thus SEEM radically different, but they are not. NFs all hold the basic self-esteem need of being seen as benevolent. (Kiersy). They will still hold kindness and benevolence in high regard.

Unless of course one of their basic values gets violated then, watch out! :devil: You will see none fearcer in protecting the "right". (whatever that may be for an NF).

[MasterMerk]

And, in actuality, if you think about it MM, NFs are not that radically different. They may hold different religious beliefs, and thus SEEM radically different, but they are not. NFs all hold the basic self-esteem need of being seen as benevolent. (Kiersy). They will still hold kindness and benevolence in high regard.

Religous belief is not all I'm talking about (although it is a big influence). What I'm saying is that our entire beliefs can change the way we see the world, and ergo our reaction to it - in turn able to produce radically different people, inside and out. That's one of the things I don't like about some NF descriptions (notably the INFP ones); that they assume NFs are all mystical weenies who want to save the world. Bah, I've met extremley cynical INFPs before, and I am somewhat a cynic myself sometimes.

And you and I are fairly different from eachother too, I might add. :)

[CreativeChaos]

Religous belief is not all I'm talking about (although it is a big influence). What I'm saying is that our entire beliefs can change the way we see the world, and ergo our reaction to it - in turn able to produce radically different people, inside and out. That's one of the things I don't like about some NF descriptions (notably the INFP ones); that they assume NFs are all mystical weenies who want to save the world. Bah, I've met extremley cynical INFPs before, and I am somewhat a cynic myself sometimes.

And you and I are fairly different from eachother too, I might add. :)

Well, I personally am an atheist INFP. My INFJ friend is really into psychic phenomenon and believes in Astrology. But he cherishes kindness and benevolence. And I as an atheist still believe in kindness and compassion and they are my highest goals.

I don't like the Kiersy description in Please Understand Me I, of INFPs either. It is a bit off the wall. I do like the one on the INFP site, made by INFPs, though. That one is really good.

And yes, I hate the assumption that NFs are all mystcial weenies who want to save the world. But you have to admit, MM. Most of the "Self-Help" books and "Love One Another" books, like Leo Buscalgia, are NFs. You are putting NFs in a negative light.

But these guys are not weenies. They want to change the world yes, as do I, but there is nothing weeny about it. And yeah, I have gotten very cynical at times. But then, I consider those times to not be my best moments. I think the real value in NFs IS their propensity towards kindness and compassion, and I for one will not apologize for it, even on an NT board.

BUT, as much as these guys think I am different. They haven't seen nothin'. I am very much less NF on here and have acctualy adapted myself and wound up with a different MO than my real NF self. I wouldn't dare start posting all of the love and sympathy that I really feel.

I did that once just recently, just to see the reaction. Hee! :devil: And it was YUCK!!! Hee!

And can you really say you are that different from me? Are you not NF? Does the not mean that we share the same NF values? Do you really know me that well?

Edit: Of course, I might add that you are a 17 year old male, from Australia, and I am a 45 year old female, from New Orleans. Could make for a teeny weeny little bit of difference there.

[MasterMerk]

And yes, I hate the assumption that NFs are all mystical weenies who want to save the world. But you have to admit, MM. Most of the "Self-Help" books and "Love One Another" books, like Leo Buscalgia, are NFs. You are putting NFs in a negative light.

Not really, I'm saying that we are much more versatile than that. It's all just a huge stereotype I'm not fond of in the slightest because it doesn't say anything to me at all. MBTI was never intended to tell people "NFs like self-help books", "NTs like physics" or "SPs dig on criminal activity". MBTI et al only show you a little bit of the foundation, not the actual building.



But these guys are not weenies. They want to change the world yes, as do I, but there is nothing weeny about it. And yeah, I have gotten very cynical at times. But then, I consider those times to not be my best moments. I think the real value in NFs IS their propensity towards kindness and compassion, and I for one will not apologize for it, even on an NT board.

Yes, a propensity towards kindness tends to be more prelevant in NFs, but not always. I met one ENFJ once; racist fucker I've ever seen. See what I mean? When you go around claiming kindness and benevolence as a distinguishing feature, then some people are going to be left in the dark. It's the wrong way.



And can you really say you are that different from me? Are you not NF? Does the not mean that we share the same NF values? Do you really know me that well?


I don't *really* know you. But to get my point across, some of your behavior is definitely of your own making. NF values? I thought I already covered that. Where NF really links us is that we put feeling behind our words. What we actually say has less correlation.



Edit: Of course, I might add that you are a 17 year old male, from Australia, and I am a 45 year old female, from New Orleans. Could make for a teeny weeny little bit of difference there


Just a bit, perhaps. :)

[Arioch]

I totally agree with this. I see a large part of what goes on here as "stupid". NFs seem to have a "value" logic. And if that logic isn't followed then the person is "stupid". It was probably an NF who came up with The Emotional IQ. Heh! :devil: And the emotional IQ here is.... (well, now, uhh... hhhmm..)

I don't see how INFJs would be that different at all than INFPs or any other NF regarding the best type for and NT.

According to Kiersy, NTs want a "mind-mate", NFs want a "soul-mate". I can see from some of the discussion on here that I would be driven nuts with the Einstein logic crap. And I know my INFJ friend would be too. You would still have the T/F problem.

Also, there is no way an NF would be able to handle the "mind" exercises and things you guys go through here. ANY NF. Ask Eileen. Can she really handle the heavy duty discussions? Except for the religious stuff, which is very NF. Do you see any NFs in the computer discussions? Notice where NFs show up here, and where they don't.

So you will NOT get a "mind-mate" from an NF.

Actually I remember a certain something with a INFJ. She was (in her own way) a mind mate to me. She was extraordinarily mentally stimulating and supportive and in me she found a soul-mate of sorts. The secret was that we were both developed and mature enough.

She helped me quite a bit by introducing new ways of seeing the world. She encouraged me too see things as a experiment and together we communed with eachother and in our minds we painted vigorous paintings and fantastic visions of such things that have never been seen by mortal eyes.

So, as they say, there are more things between Heaven and Earth then are dreamt of in your philosophy...

[waxwing]

In my experience, both parties in the NF-NT relationship think the other is stupid quite often. There's a failure to communicate properly because of that T/F frustration. I do speak specifically of ENFP/INTP interaction. NTs think NFs are unintellectual because they don't use hard logic in their approach to an issue. And NFs are driven crazy by the NT's refusal to validate any "illogical" or feeling aspects to the debate. There's mystery in unraveling the other's ideas. When mutual and fundamental respect is had for both people's intelligence, it works. But I've found the only way to end a conflict is to eventually just drop it. Fighting goes nowhere.

However, I will say that having knowledge of MBTI & function preferences helps greatly when dealing with this kind of communication breakdown.


Mariel, I've had a very similar experience recently. The T/F difference was not the only problem, but it was a major source of frustration. Thanks for your insight.

[waxwing]

The NFs I know tend to be fiercely independent, nononventional, and intelligent. I recently was told by a good friend (ENFx) that she always feels like my arguments have some malicious intent. She feels hurt although I do not mean anything personal by having a discussion with her (and I am definitely not the most superlogical INTP you'd meet).

NFs:

Do you prefer to think about the topic of discussion on your own, then report back? Does the pressure of debate/arguing make you uncomfortable, even if the other person wants to be objective? Do you find that walking away for a while helps you process feelings? Or I am confusing processing (mentally) with expressing and identifying emotion? How can an INTP who enjoys verbal swordplay exercise his/her mind in debate without offending you? I never am sure how to handle hurt feelings after an instance of what to me was harmless discussion. Do I give my friend a hug and apologize, or do I try to gently explain why I was discussing and not "fighting?" I really would like some insight. I realize I asked several questions. Feel free to answer none, one, or more than one. Thanks.

[purple13]

Debates are intimidating to me, unless it's a topic I'm well versed in. Even then, yes, I don't think well on my feet. I've noticed, when presented with new information that I have not thought about before, I would need to go away and process it before making any comments that perhaps I would not later agree with. It seems NTs can maybe retrieve information better/faster without having the feeling filter to slow them down?
I think the "objectiveness" of NT can sometimes be misinterpreted as harsh and unfeeling to NFs, like it's a personal attack against an NF's values, when it's not necessarily so. NT's can be enlightening to NFs, in so far as expressing their big picture view, with all of it's sides. But the NF must go away and process the "usefulness" of these varied viewpoints in relation to their values. That's kinda how I see it anyway.

[Eileen]

NFs:

Do you prefer to think about the topic of discussion on your own, then report back? Does the pressure of debate/arguing make you uncomfortable, even if the other person wants to be objective? Do you find that walking away for a while helps you process feelings? Or I am confusing processing (mentally) with expressing and identifying emotion? How can an INTP who enjoys verbal swordplay exercise his/her mind in debate without offending you? I never am sure how to handle hurt feelings after an instance of what to me was harmless discussion. Do I give my friend a hug and apologize, or do I try to gently explain why I was discussing and not "fighting?" I really would like some insight. I realize I asked several questions. Feel free to answer none, one, or more than one. Thanks.

I do prefer to think and then speak, but I suspect that NFs can differ on this matter, and it may be a communication style difference. INFPs and ENFPs might prefer to think out loud and explore more that way than INFJs (and maybe ENFJs). Introverted Thinking is my third-used process, and I tend to be most effective in a debate if I can sit and write about it for awhile and clarify to myself exactly what my opinions are and why. I don't use Ti as readily as INTPs (or INTJs), but it is certainly in my accessible box of tricks.

It truly makes a difference who and what I am debating as to whether I feel comfortable. But if you want to talk generally about how to debate with NFs, I'd say that periodic reminder within the conversation that it's nothing personal, that you don't think the other person is stupid, etc would be helpful. Talking to my INTP dad about issues has always been somewhat of a sore spot for me because I always feel as if he has this superior attitude and feels that I am less intelligent than he is. Nothing turns me off in a conversation more than perceiving this attitude in the person with whom I am conversing. I'll get really distracted and emotional about that, and the issue at hand will suddenly become less of a priority to me than dealing with my emotions.

[CreativeChaos]

Not really, I'm saying that we are much more versatile than that. It's all just a huge stereotype I'm not fond of in the slightest because it doesn't say anything to me at all. MBTI was never intended to tell people "NFs like self-help books", "NTs like physics" or "SPs dig on criminal activity". MBTI et al only show you a little bit of the foundation, not the actual building.

Yes, we are more versatile than that, but the majority of self help books are in fact written by NFs. I have seen the stats. NFs are more likely to go into Counseling, Psychology, Sociology, Art, etc. There are stats on the types of fields that NFs will, on the whole, go into. The fact that you answer the MBTI questions as an INFJ, tells me that you have certain propenisties. Or at least you said you have them. How and to what ends you use those can be very different. I liked your analagy of MBTI being a little bit of the foundation. Very good. I totally agree. Butwe ARE at the foundation, quite a bit alike. Even if you are a 17 year old male, and I a 45 year old female. The MBTI shows that there are commonalities that we have. (At the foundation, not the actual building).


Yes, a propensity towards kindness tends to be more prelevant in NFs, but not always. I met one ENFJ once; racist fucker I've ever seen. See what I mean? When you go around claiming kindness and benevolence as a distinguishing feature, then some people are going to be left in the dark. It's the wrong way.

NFs are only human. Of course they can get off the track. And there are healthy well balanced NFs and there are unhealthy ones. The healthy ones WILL be kind and benevolent. MOST are. Showing me one example of a racist ENFJ does not convince me. Stats are the thing that will convince me. Not mere personal experience.


I don't *really* know you. But to get my point across, some of your behavior is definitely of your own making. NF values? I thought I already covered that. Where NF really links us is that we put feeling behind our words. What we actually say has less correlation.


I agree with this. Completely. :)

[Eileen]

Stats are the thing that will convince me. Not mere personal experience.


Hahaha--this is a strange (not unreasonable, but strange) thing for an NF to say.

Personal experiences? Your story? This doesn't matter to me! Give me cold, hard facts! :)

(Again, it's not unreasonable; it's just not a typical NF response.)

[CreativeChaos]

Actually I remember a certain something with a INFJ. She was (in her own way) a mind mate to me. She was extraordinarily mentally stimulating and supportive and in me she found a soul-mate of sorts. The secret was that we were both developed and mature enough.

She helped me quite a bit by introducing new ways of seeing the world. She encouraged me too see things as a experiment and together we communed with eachother and in our minds we painted vigorous paintings and fantastic visions of such things that have never been seen by mortal eyes.

So, as they say, there are more things between Heaven and Earth then are dreamt of in your philosophy...


I had an INTP boyfriend an we would talk philosophy for hours and hours. It's true that you can find a certain amount of "mind-mate" in an NF, and an NF can find a certain amount of a "soul-mate" in an NT. And you would find it easier in an NF than an S, because NFs are abstract thinkers, after all and can follow your thinking.

My post was rather liminting, I see. It was a generalization. I think it depends on your interests. If you are an NT who is interested in human type things, like Jung and psychology, I think you would find a "mind-mate" much easier in an NF. Or if an NF were interested in neurology, and you were then you would find the same.

But let me point out what I think is the prevailing difference. When I was discussing philosophy with my INTP boyfriend, I was doing it because I felt connected to him in that way. I was striving for the "soul" connection. I wanted to hear more about HIM and what he felt and so on than he was willing to say, though. But the disscusions were satisfying for both of us, because he was doing his "mind-mate" thing while I was doing my "soul-mate" thing at the same time. It is the reason behind the disscussions that were the difference.

[Elro]

NFs are only human. Of course they can get off the track. And there are healthy well balanced NFs and there are unhealthy ones. The healthy ones WILL be kind and benevolent. MOST are. Showing me one example of a racist ENFJ does not convince me. Stats are the thing that will convince me. Not mere personal experience.


Perhaps I'm misreading this, but you're saying that NFs are less likely to be racist/hateful than other types? Have you considered the possibility that being an NF Idealist may be affecting your perception of fellow NFs? :p

I have been lucky enough to meet few hateful people in my life, but I highly doubt that type has any bearing on it. One of the few racists I know is an F.

If there were to be any correlation, in fact, I'd bet a T would be less likely to be racist than an F, merely because it's illogical and unfair to make such assumptions. However, I think all types suffer from this in about equal proportions.

[Eileen]

Perhaps I'm misreading this, but you're saying that NFs are less likely to be racist/hateful than other types? Have you considered the possibility that being an NF Idealist may be affecting your perception? :p

I have been lucky enough to meet few hateful people in my life, but I highly doubt that type has any bearing on it. One of the few racists I know is an F.

If there were to be any correlation, in fact, I'd bet a T would be less likely to be racist than an F, merely because it's illogical and unfair to make such assumptions. However, I think all types suffer from this in about equal proportions.

I concur. This is where type is going to fall short in predicting behaviors. Racist attitudes have a lot to do with experience and upbringing, not necessarily MB type.

[CreativeChaos]

The NFs I know tend to be fiercely independent, nononventional, and intelligent. I recently was told by a good friend (ENFx) that she always feels like my arguments have some malicious intent. She feels hurt although I do not mean anything personal by having a discussion with her (and I am definitely not the most superlogical INTP you'd meet).

NFs:

Do you prefer to think about the topic of discussion on your own, then report back? Does the pressure of debate/arguing make you uncomfortable, even if the other person wants to be objective? Do you find that walking away for a while helps you process feelings? Or I am confusing processing (mentally) with expressing and identifying emotion? How can an INTP who enjoys verbal swordplay exercise his/her mind in debate without offending you? I never am sure how to handle hurt feelings after an instance of what to me was harmless discussion. Do I give my friend a hug and apologize, or do I try to gently explain why I was discussing and not "fighting?" I really would like some insight. I realize I asked several questions. Feel free to answer none, one, or more than one. Thanks.

Yes, the pressure of debate/arguing does make me uncomfortable, even if the other person wants to be objective. It is conflict, even if objective, that is hurtful. I try very hard to be an objective debator, but I can do it for just so long, until it starts feeling negative. Arguing and debating is negative. "Disscussion" is not. While disccussiong the topic with your NF, tell her where you agree with her first. Or say, Gee, that was a very good response, I like such and so forth. And then continue with your point of view. It has to include "niceities". Diplomacy. Not just objective opinion. If you do that you could probably discuss with her for hours. Just keep it "friendly" and include the positives about her and her statements. If you feed her "feelings" she will continue to feed some good intellectual objective abstract thoughts.

You must NOT engage in verbal swordplay. Just don't do it. You must consider it a "disscussion", a "sharing" of ideas. Otherwise you will end up with her feelings being hurt. If you go after the "discussion" as a "sharing" of ideas, you will get really good ideas and a good "discussion". But keep the sword sheathed.

If you have indavertantly gotten into your sword mode, or have inadvertantly hurt her feelings, definetly begin apologising and stop the discussion right away. It doesn't matter who was "right" or "wrong". She doen't care about that. She just wants to "bond" with you. To "connect" with you. And getting into a sword debate is not the way to do that. So if this happens, apologize for hurting her feelings, say it was not your intent, definitely hold her, tell her you love her, you value her thoughts, and you value her feelings and would not want to hurt her for the world.

[CreativeChaos]

Hahaha--this is a strange (not unreasonable, but strange) thing for an NF to say.

Personal experiences? Your story? This doesn't matter to me! Give me cold, hard facts! :)

(Again, it's not unreasonable; it's just not a typical NF response.)

Heh! Yeah. I have a bachelors in Political Science, i.e. International Relations where I took a lot of Sociology and Quantitaive Anaylisis courses. I have a Masters in Urban Studies. I wrote a thesis for this. I have done so much writing of research papers and studying and using qualitative and quantitative analyisis that I have gotten rather "scientific" about the "soft" sciences. Heh! :)

[CreativeChaos]

Perhaps I'm misreading this, but you're saying that NFs are less likely to be racist/hateful than other types? Have you considered the possibility that being an NF Idealist may be affecting your perception of fellow NFs? :p

I have been lucky enough to meet few hateful people in my life, but I highly doubt that type has any bearing on it. One of the few racists I know is an F.

If there were to be any correlation, in fact, I'd bet a T would be less likely to be racist than an F, merely because it's illogical and unfair to make such assumptions. However, I think all types suffer from this in about equal proportions.

Hmm.. no I can't say that at all. I don't know of any stats that compares type and racism. If an NF is racist, I would venture a guess to say that he/she has had a bad personal experience with the other race. It an NT were to be racist, I have no idea what the reason would be.

I have seen more ESFPs as racist than any other type. The "bluecollar" mentality. And I think it comes from working with "bluecollar" blacks. There is more of a prevailing attitude in that sector for some reason. (Don't know why.)

I had a black ISTP boyfriend for nine months. We discussed race a lot. And racial predjudice goes both ways. Here in New Orleans there is a large black population. It's kinda weird. We still have racial problems, but you will see a lot of mixed couples. It's a rather paradoxical place. I used to go Zydeco dancing every week for about two years. Zydeco is the black form of Cajun music. It is loads more fun and "zippy" than Cajun music. And the crowd was about half and half. I've dance with and talked with lots of black guys. It is not such an issue in places like this.

Anyway, I would venture to say that it certainly has nothing to do with T/F. Feeling types can hate even more passionately than Thinking types.

But my final answer is "I don't know" and "I don't think anyone knows what the correlation is of prejudicial behavior and type". It has not really been studyied. So no, I was not implying anything of that nature.

[Serotonin]

I just want to say this thread is fascinating.
It makes me reconsider my inclination of "knowledge for knowledge's sake"(NT) versus "knowledge to make the world a better place"(NF). I will pursue knowledge because it's interesting, and because it expands the complex web of systems in my brain. That in itself is enough for me. But when I consider the idea doing something, "for the greater good ", I feel humbled and in awe of people who have that as their base motivation, as opposed to me who selfishly does it for his own betterment.
I know for sure that if more people were NF than NT then society would be a better place :)

So more power to NFs, us NTs think you're wonderful.....

[darlets]

It truly makes a difference who and what I am debating as to whether I feel comfortable. But if you want to talk generally about how to debate with NFs, I'd say that periodic reminder within the conversation that it's nothing personal, that you don't think the other person is stupid, etc would be helpful. Talking to my INTP dad about issues has always been somewhat of a sore spot for me because I always feel as if he has this superior attitude and feels that I am less intelligent than he is. Nothing turns me off in a conversation more than perceiving this attitude in the person with whom I am conversing. I'll get really distracted and emotional about that, and the issue at hand will suddenly become less of a priority to me than dealing with my emotions.

INFJ puzzle me most of all the types. The last two girls I've dated were INFJ and they still baffle me to this day.

This is getting off topic but if I had to pick two things the pervade an INTP it's the love of knowledge and dislike of Dogmatic opinions.

Could you describe to me briefly what you think makes INFJ tick. I've read stuff on them and they still baffle me totally.

INFP and ENFP seem like big playful puppy dogs to me and ENFJ tend to be very gregarious giving people and infj just....... exceptionally warm under the surface I just can't seem to get at it (draw it out). Sometimes you get these explosions of warmth from them (you push the right button) but if you don't follow it up automatically they withdraw more than before.

With both of them (girls) we had a nice little pattern going where I'd probe and probe and try and relate to them and you'd succeed it would be "Wow!" where did that come from and I'd be taken back and they'd be hurt.

Whoops rambling alert.

Anyway, I don't get INFJ's ???? Sorry, I try.

[Arioch]

Hmm.. eairlier I replied that I had a bond of sorts with a INFJ.

I should also mention that this doesn't have to be the case all the time. I have for example had a INFJ teacher who is probably the only person I've ever met in real life who I believe should get a horrifying debilitating disease and rid the world of her foul existence.

So really it depends on the maturity of the person.

[Mariel]

Well, I disagree with the thought that any NF would not be able to handle the heavy duty discussions. Let's keep in mind that F is a preference, which is not to say that because we have this preference we are incapable of T! What I hear you saying is that NFs are primarily concerned with the more interpersonal and psychological topics. This is true to an extent, but an NF can make a fine "mind mate" for an NT, as long as the two in question are capable of stepping outside of their preferences. The INTPs that I know (and "know" from this forum) are able to use ther feeling function. And we feely people can be logical as well.

[Edmond Zedo]

Even in INTP-INTP relationships?
"All I ever wanted--All I ever needed is here in my arms. Words are very unnecessary. They can only do harm."

[Mariel]

Yes, definitely. In fact, often I will just get out of debating with an INTP entirely, especially if I get the sense that the "logic" or "facts" being presented have not in fact been documented. I notice that in the heat of the debate or conversation, thoughts are presented which don't even represent the actual opinion of the INTP- they are throwing stuff out there just for the sake of exploration. This can be frustrating depending on the subject. Sometimes NTs will argue fiercely for or against something that they don't necessarily even believe just for the fun of the exercise.

But in answer to your question, yes, i prefer to think through and distill my ideas or opinions on a topic and present them when they're more formed. It's very easy to feel baited or pressured to defend in this type of discussion, and feel that I'm defending mySELF and not just a thought or idea. My boyfriend and I run into this a lot. He thinks its fun to play the devil's advocate and make me explain logically how I arrived at what is sometimes a personal and subjective opinion based on experience. I can see his train of thought too but wonder why he bothers going through mental gymnastics. It seems like it's just to draw me out and find loopholes in my argument. It's definitely helpful to explain that you're just enjoying debating and talking so the other doesn't feel attacked by the "swordplay".

[Edmond Zedo]

INTJs are more interested in the debate itself than INTPs are, and are much more likely to make arguments for fun, or to see how the other will respond. We INTPs, relying heavily on Ne, are often unsure about details but still confident that our conclusions are correct, at least as far as they concern us. I never debate what I'm not behind, and debate less and less as I get older because it's tiring and nearly inconsequential.

[Eileen]

Could you describe to me briefly what you think makes INFJ tick. I've read stuff on them and they still baffle me totally.

INFP and ENFP seem like big playful puppy dogs to me and ENFJ tend to be very gregarious giving people and infj just....... exceptionally warm under the surface I just can't seem to get at it (draw it out). Sometimes you get these explosions of warmth from them (you push the right button) but if you don't follow it up automatically they withdraw more than before.


I don't know in "real life" any other INFJs except for my best friend, who (I've said this before) is sort of hard to accurately type because she has borderline personality disorder. I think what she and I definitely have in common is our tendency to be pretty unapproachable at times. We both are very warm, as you say, under the surface, but we, both very strong introverts, tend to keep at a distance with most people.

I'm not sure I can really relate to what you're describing other than the warmth under the surface thing. When I trust someone, I am regularly very warm with him or her. However, if I'm pissed off or I'm feeling really insecure, I have a tendency to give the person who offends me the stone-cold silent treatment while in his or her presence.

INFJs tend to have really high expectations for people--perhaps unfairly so at times. And I don't know how this compares to other types, but INFJs have such high expectations of themselves that they're never completely happy with what they've achieved; I'm not, anyway. I always feel that I could be doing much better than I am, and I'm never satisfied with how well I am doing. This can translate into extreme insecurity in relationships--a fear that one isn't enough or isn't doing it correctly. I don't have that so much in my current relationship, but it has definitely come up before.

And values, of course, are very important to an INFJ, but not in the same way that values are important to SJs.

Don't know if that's helpful at all, but I must go to work.

[CreativeChaos]

I don't know in "real life" any other INFJs except for my best friend, who (I've said this before) is sort of hard to accurately type ......Don't know if that's helpful at all, but I must go to work.

As I've said before, my best friend is an INFJ. I struggled for a long time to even see ANY differences between us. I liked the comparison of INFPs and ENFPs being like big puppy dogs. That is pretty much true of me and ENFPs I have seen. This doesn't make us dumb, we are Ps and thus, very emotionally playful, in a puppy dog kinda way. Tis true. :D You can see my puppy dogness all over this forum. :D Hee!

My INFJ friend is NOT the puppy dog though. He comes across as much more serious than I. He IS in fact a little more "straight laced". That is the J combination, I would think. He is also more organized than I, when it comes to his own stuff. He is scheduled. I will call him about doing something and he says "Let me check my schedule". And I say "What schedule?" HEE!!!:D I do find him to behave in a more subdued manner than I.

And here is the paradox. INFPs have Fi as thier dominant function. INFJs have Ni as their dominant function. So INFPs have a "judging function" as their dominant function, and INFJs have a "perceiving function" as the dominant function. So, on the "inside" I am in actuallity MUCH more serious and "fierce" and "judging" than he. He will come to me to ask what I think about things. He loves coming to me to get my opionion, which I give easily. I can form an opinion much quicker than he. That's my dominant Fi at work. He seems to me to be too "unopinionated" and will accept stuff I will automatically deem as crap. He does not process things right away in making an opinion. This does not mean I consider him unintellegent by any stretch. He has a Masters degree, and is very intellegent. He simply proccess and judges the info he gets slower than I.

We will go to functions together: for example, we went to see this hypnosis thearapist. I gathered from this guy very quickly that he was a "salesman" kind of person, and was having this women as an example. He was claiming to be able to do stuff WAY and beyond the peramiters of hypnosis. And I didn't like him. He seemed to be "making a pitch". He stank of insincerity and just "trying to make a buck". Feeding off of peoples problems. I really didn't like that.

My INFJ friend, though, was busy asking questions, allowing his Ni, to gather info, without making a judgement. Then after the meeting he asked me for my opinion, and I started talking about this guys behavior and the specific reasons why I thought he was "full of it". Then my friend was like "oh, gee, I can see that now."

So, you see? The outward appearance of both types is directly paradoxical to the "real" underlying introverted function. And you can only see that if you know the person well. It took me a long time of knowing him to begin to see his Ni at work, vs, my Fi. These are very hidden functions. What you see is the Fe with J (ie, more subdued and scheduled) of the INFJ and the Ne with P (ie, more "exploring" and playful) with the INFP. But what is on the inside is actually the opposite.

HEE!!!:D Clear as MUD!?! HA! :devil:

Here is a site that is intended to help INF?s determine if they are INFP or INFJ. I have heard from INFPs and INFJs say this is very good and very accurate. I think if you read through this you will get a MUCH better idea of what INFJs AND INFPs are about. It is the most indepth and accurate description I have ever read regarding INFPs and INFJs.

http://members.aol.com/macvjv/INFJorINFP.htm

[minger223]

I agree with you CC... NFPs really are like big puppy dogs!! :hug:

[jread]

My girlfriend is an ENXJ and I feel that this is the best match for an INTP.

When she's being an ENTJ, we have very intellectual conversations, all the bills get paid on time, the home runs smoothly, etc. The only negative is that she can get a bit bossy.

When she's being an ENFJ, she buys me neat gifts (and I always LOVE them), I feel like someone is taking care of me, I get lots of compliments, etc. The only negative is that she will often accuse me of being unemotional or unappreciative of her, and she tends to take it personal if I want to be alone for awhile.

She's the only girl I've dated that wasn't "stupid" or "boring" to me. She can actually talk about things that are interesting and she's very logical. Also, it's good to have an "E" around to make the phone calls or talk to the salesperson (if I can't get something done online, I usually don't do it).

[darlets]

Thanks, you were both very helpful. (I haven't read all the website.... yet)

It's just out of all the NF types INFJ is the one I struggle most to relate to (unlock). Getting to know an ENF? just involves saying "Hello". I think I get INFP's in that you can see enough of what makes them tick come through to the rest of the world.

But trying to get a grasp on what makes an INFJ tick has thus far eluded me. (Ships passing in the night)

[Eileen]

Thanks, you were both very helpful. (I haven't read all the website.... yet)

It's just out of all the NF types INFJ is the one I struggle most to relate to (unlock). Getting to know an ENF? just involves saying "Hello". I think I get INFP's in that you can see enough of what makes them tick come through to the rest of the world.

But trying to get a grasp on what makes an INFJ tick has thus far eluded me. (Ships passing in the night)

Yes--INFJs are definitely the hardest of the NFs to get to know.

Patience and gentleness works best. :)

[jyakulis]

Yes--INFJs are definitely the hardest of the NFs to get to know.

Patience and gentleness works best. :)


i give up on em....gimme an enfj, light on the j

[cjs55]

ENFJs and ENTJs for male friends kick ass in my experience with them. I'm guessing they'd be great for more than just friends as well.

My ENFJ friend especially is great. He's my philosophy buddy, and is very fun to debate with. We're really quite different, but still on the same wavelength, so its very refreshing and often enlightening.

[Eileen]

I really enjoy my ENFJ friend too. She's a whole lot of fun to just be with. Also, we perceive things pretty similarly, so we are driven insane by similar behaviors. When we lived together, we would just look over at one another when something irritating happened and know that we stood together in irritation. :)

The only thing about her was that she could be really passive aggressive and I found that enraging at times. However, that's really my only complaint about her as a person. If she's typical of ENFJs, I could definitely get on board the ENFJ train.

I say that I'm freaked out by extraverts--and I AM--but people like her are really good for not being overwhelming, for respecting personal space, and ultimately drawing out introverts like me.

Awww *gush*

I lived in a fuckin' AWESOME NF household last year--an INFP, an ENFJ, and my INFJ best friend. It was love and goodness all around. We had great conversations--much educational philosophy and psychology and religious studies and theatre and art--and there was rarely the feeling of being attacked or looked down upon, as can sometimes be the case in conversations with NTs and NFs. I can understand the NTs enjoying conversation with NTs the most. It's certainly easiest to talk to someone with a similar temperament. That said, I do like being challenged and enjoy talking to INTPs, particularly in this context.


I wish I were half as inclined to come out of my shell and be expressive in my everyday life as I am on internet forums.

[misutii]

if i only knew about all this before my last 2 relationships with nfs, although in hindsight it's ironically amusing.... like the few times in life that i talk it works against me...... woe be the stars that blinded by the sky we cannot see

[darlets]

Yes--INFJs are definitely the hardest of the NFs to get to know.

Patience and gentleness works best. :)


I'll keep trying :)

I have two really cool ENFJ people in my life. I think that would work.

I prefer this cause you pretty much know where you stand with them at any given moment (there's a maximum delay of about mmmmmm 5 seconds between them experiencing an emotion and you knowing about it).
Hey, I'm emotionally lazy.

This is taken from a website on infj
do people agree with it????

----------------------------------------------------------
This is a theory devised by some INFJs on the "warm fuzzy teddybear" feel that surrounds some of the introverted intuitives. This is how others see the INs:

INFJ - cold on outside, warm and fuzzy on the inside
INFP - warm and fuzzy inside and out
INTP - warm on the outside, hard as a rock inside
INTJ - cold and hard inside and out
--------------------------------------------------



INFJ STUFF (http://www.infj.org/infjness.html)

[CreativeChaos]

I agree with you CC... NFPs really are like big puppy dogs!! :hug:

Heee!!!!! Slobbbbberrrrr, Slllobbbberrrr, pant, pant, pant, lick, lick, pant, pant, pant.

Pet me :wub: Pet me :wub: Pet me:wub:

SloBBbBBbBBBBBebbbbBbBEEEEEeeEEEEeEeERRRrRR!! Hee! :devil:

Thanks for the hug minger223. :smooch:

[CreativeChaos]

Yes--INFJs are definitely the hardest of the NFs to get to know.

Patience and gentleness works best. :)

I agree with this. My INFJ friend is still a mystery. (But then I like mysteries, heh). It's just the Ni, that is SOOoooo mysterious. It is the most "intuitive" of all. And there is no way of seeing it at work, really. I guess that is much like the Fi. Very difficult to understand. But the Ni, is "mysterious". Oooooo...

[CreativeChaos]

ENFJs and ENTJs for male friends kick ass in my experience with them. I'm guessing they'd be great for more than just friends as well.

My ENFJ friend especially is great. He's my philosophy buddy, and is very fun to debate with. We're really quite different, but still on the same wavelength, so its very refreshing and often enlightening.

-----I----WANTA MEET AN ENFJ!!!!!:(,,,,,,:(,,,,,,,:(,,,,,,:cry:

[darlets]

Heee!!!!! Slobbbbberrrrr, Slllobbbberrrr, pant, pant, pant, lick, lick, pant, pant, pant.

Pet me :wub: Pet me :wub: Pet me:wub:

SloBBbBBbBBBBBebbbbBbBEEEEEeeEEEEeEeERRRrRR!! Hee! :devil:

Thanks for the hug minger223. :smooch:


This would explain why I can't find my slippers. :)

[CreativeChaos]

This would explain why I can't find my slippers. :)


Oooooppps! :blush:

[andthesunburnedouttonight]

I have a question for the INFJs on here. Do you have a strong tendency for bursts of anger? My mom is an INFJ, and any time she faces any little annoyance, it comes out of her mouth in the form of an angry scream or curse word. I assume it's her secondary function of Extraverted Feeling at work, but it's like she has to let the world know how irritated she is.



i give up on em....gimme an enfj, light on the j
Take my sister....Please!

[Mariel]

I agree with you CC... NFPs really are like big puppy dogs!! :hug:
I would have to say that my personality in no way resembles a puppy dog.

[cjs55]

-----I----WANTA MEET AN ENFJ!!!!!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Simple then: Go to the university of denver and meet my friend!

[Eileen]

I have a question for the INFJs on here. Do you have a strong tendency for bursts of anger? My mom is an INFJ, and any time she faces any little annoyance, it comes out of her mouth in the form of an angry scream or curse word. I assume it's her secondary function of Extraverted Feeling at work, but it's like she has to let the world know how irritated she is.

When I'm mildly to moderately annoyed, I may verbalize it like this: RAAAAARRRRR. If I'm moderately to majorly annoyed, but not angry, I may verbalize it like this: MOTHERFUCKINGSONOFAGODDAMNCUNTFACEASSHOLESHITRAAAAAAAARRRR!!!! (this happens most often when I stub my toe).

When I am angry, I don't necessarily verbalize it. When I'm REALLY pissed at someone, they get frostbite silence. I actually do have the patience of a saint, so to really piss me off is a feat.

I do like a good door slam, and when I was younger, I did have the tendency to throw stuff just to hear it break.

[MasterMerk]

I would have to say that my personality in no way resembles a puppy dog.

Neither mine.

We need more Mariels around.

[jyakulis]

Take my sister....Please!

HAH gimme your address and phone number so i can proceed to properly stalk her. I got all the enfj i can handle right now......and when they call em givers...lemme tell ya :whistle:

[miff]

HAH gimme your address and phone number so i can proceed to properly stalk her. I got all the enfj i can handle right now......and when they call em givers...lemme tell ya :whistle:

haha, nice.

enfjs aren't just givers, we're sugar mommas.

[jyakulis]

haha, nice.

enfjs aren't just givers, we're sugar mommas.


hey sugar momma :wub:

[Kommienezuspadt]

With all the ENFJ gushing, I might as well share my experience:

My ex-boyfriend was an ENFJ. We lived together for two years and outwardly, it was very fulfilling. His E gave us tons of friends and contacts. His N was what attracted me to him, having extensive conversations about bizarre things. His F meant he was always telling me how much he loved me and doing nice things for me. His J helped decide what restaurants to go to or appliances to buy. It was nice and I didn't have to work very hard at it.

The real problems came from the fact that he never understood when I wanted to be alone. He was always talking and wanted me to talk to him, or I'd hurt his feelings. I'd oblige him, we'd talk about something, but it would usually become clear that he was just saying things to placate me (the E and F coming out) or to piss me off because he was mad at me for some reason (F and J).

The other thing got mentioned earlier, the fact that he held himself to insanely high standards and expected me to meet them too. It was really bad with sex. He'd sit and quiz me on exes, asking if he was better or worse than each one of them. He needed constant reassurance that he was perfect and wonderful in every way. It got tiring.

My current boyfriend is an INTP. We are alike in every way. This isn't exactly ideal.

I have been with him for over two years. We have never once, in that span of time, run out of things to talk about. We've gone months with no jobs and no money to even pay for a phone line, but been perfectly happy sitting in our quiet apartment eating ramen and discussing things 24 hours a day, with brief breaks for sleep. We have been so immersed in each other, at times, that we've forgotten to eat or bathe. It's a little disgusting. Even when we do decide to take a break, we can't ever decide on what to do. Little things like watching TV become excruciating. "Do you want to watch this?" "I don't know, do you?" "Well whatever you feel like" "I really don't care" "It's up to you" "Here, you take the remote" :rant:

So I guess there wasn't much point to this (very long) post except to say that ENFJ's may be okay for some but I could never handle that day in and day out. My INTP, on the other hand, is amazing to talk to but I always get the feeling we're ultimately doomed because neither of us is motivated to do anything except enjoy each others' company.

[Joe_Swyers]

This thread is THE reason I registered for this forum. I too am an INTP (though I've had to learn how to be more S and J in order to cope at my jobs).

I've a very close compatriot and coworker who is an ISTJ and has been a role model in this effort to cope. Yet his penchant for rules and details is sometimes trying -- and he too has found it hard to cope sometimes when more P is needed to go with the flow of the job demands. Nevertheless, we do enjoy great conversations even though he may not share as much of an interest in abstract or visionary ideas as my N permits me to do. Our similar fairly high IQ's enable us to provide each other intellectual companionship.

An intellectual compatriot is great, but I'd also like to have a "mindmate". Finding one and connecting is a dilemma for this INTP. Since we are so rare and potential mindmates are just as rare, finding a compatible mate seems to be the needle in a haystack problem (especially in a small town). It doesn't help that, as with probably most INTP's, I've had a very difficult time trying to figure out (at that is likely much of the problem -- "figuring" too much) how to establish and deal with relationships (personal, work, etc). Thus I've come here to learn more. The following post describes an idyllic relationship.

My current boyfriend is an INTP. We are alike in every way. This isn't exactly ideal.

I have been with him for over two years. We have never once, in that span of time, run out of things to talk about. We've gone months with no jobs and no money to even pay for a phone line, but been perfectly happy sitting in our quiet apartment eating ramen and discussing things 24 hours a day, with brief breaks for sleep. We have been so immersed in each other, at times, that we've forgotten to eat or bathe. It's a little disgusting. Even when we do decide to take a break, we can't ever decide on what to do. Little things like watching TV become excruciating. "Do you want to watch this?" "I don't know, do you?" "Well whatever you feel like" "I really don't care" "It's up to you" "Here, you take the remote" :rant:

So I guess there wasn't much point to this (very long) post except to say that ENFJ's may be okay for some but I could never handle that day in and day out. My INTP, on the other hand, is amazing to talk to but I always get the feeling we're ultimately doomed because neither of us is motivated to do anything except enjoy each others' company.
To the above concern, I say you two are so very, very fortunate. The INFP-INTP relationships may be too likely to have serious T versus F misunderstandings. An INTP-INTP relationship may be the best -- given that both are not so very "P" that, as the concern above expresses, nothing much else gets done other than enjoying life and each other. But what is wrong with that as long as the basic bills get paid?

[misutii]

To the above concern, I say you two are so very, very fortunate. An INTP-INTP relationship may be the best -- given that both are not so very "P" that, as the concern above expresses, nothing much else gets done other than enjoying life and each other. But what is wrong with that as long as the basic bills get paid?

if only every girl was a rich inxp girl our lives would be infitely more amiable

[Eileen]

If I took MBTI as gospel in relationship building, I would generally think that INFP and INTP would be a terrible match, given the fact that each's dominant process is the other's absolute shadow process.

[Lee]

If I took MBTI as gospel in relationship building, I would generally think that INFP and INTP would be a terrible match, given the fact that each's dominant process is the other's absolute shadow process.

Thats why you should not use MBTI as gospel.

[spirilis]

If I took MBTI as gospel in relationship building, I would generally think that INFP and INTP would be a terrible match, given the fact that each's dominant process is the other's absolute shadow process.
You'd probably be correct :)
But then there's the whole "complementarity" argument behind people who share their dominant as their partner's inferior, etc... (and they're differing forms of F and T, anyway)

Personally I'm content with marginalizing MBTI's influence in mating, although it's a great guide if I actually do know WHAT I'm looking for...

[euterpenc]

Fs are a hell of a lot more frustrating. But it's be no fun if it was too easy and you wouldn't get as much from it.

Opposites are probably healthy because you have to accept parts of yourself and of the other you may not like.

[euterpenc]

INFP and INTP are a VERY compatible match. I say that from experience. MBTI can be useful, but I trust Jung more than the people who made MBTI. They BASED it off Jung's writings. Would you rather water straight from the spring or from a processing plant?

[Biff_Loman]

And here is the paradox. INFPs have Fi as thier dominant function. INFJs have Ni as their dominant function. So INFPs have a "judging function" as their dominant function, and INFJs have a "perceiving function" as the dominant function. So, on the "inside" I am in actuallity MUCH more serious and "fierce" and "judging" than he. He will come to me to ask what I think about things. He loves coming to me to get my opionion, which I give easily. I can form an opinion much quicker than he. That's my dominant Fi at work. He seems to me to be too "unopinionated" and will accept stuff I will automatically deem as crap. He does not process things right away in making an opinion. This does not mean I consider him unintellegent by any stretch. He has a Masters degree, and is very intellegent. He simply proccess and judges the info he gets slower than I.

Whoa, this sounds just like the INFJ I knew and loved. She was easily the least decisive person I knew - but when she made up her mind, it was made up. At least, until something happened to cause her to question the validity of her choice. Getting her to change her mind was like Chinese water torture, only with drops of love, kindness, and patience instead of - you know. Water.

CreativeChaos: if you think that the bickering and sniping on this forum is stupid, well: I do too, good-lookin'. I admit that I am not guilt-free though.

From my experience, I think that NFs can easily be mind-mates of NTs, and NTs soulmates of NFs. Both parties just have to get their heads out of their asses. Why on earth would you engage in "swordplay" with a gentle soul? Um, the universe is such an exciting thing to discuss and explore jointly without fear of recrimination. . . I'm not advocating beating the swords into plowshares: save 'em for ENTPs!

I was never anything less than fascinated by "my" INFJ's "stupid" approach to life. I was mortified when I suggested that the "feelings" she had about people might come solely from her subconscious - she replied that there was a deeper mystery to it, be it Fate, God, or something. I was deeply ashamed that I had failed to honour her correctly in that moment. It didn't matter that I'm an agnostic and a skeptic first and foremost: I was tactless towards someone I valued highly and loved surpassingly. She was more important than a coherent understanding of how human perception works. . .

I dunno. I loved the "magic" she introduced into my clinical world. In a world where everything can be carved up according to logical principles, she allowed me to open up to the possibility of finding meaning.

I miss her so much it hurts, sometimes. I would drag myself across broken glass to have her back, even if only as a friend.

[Lee]

They BASED it off Jung's writings. Would you rather water straight from the spring or from a processing plant?

Thats like asuming that Darwin got everything right on the first attempt and that no subsequent improvements to the theory have been made.

[coffeezombie]

Why doesn't everyone realize INTPs should just be with INTPs and eliminate all these pointless "matchmaking" threads? Nobody understands us like our own type.

[melancholeric]

Why doesn't everyone realize INTPs should just be with INTPs and eliminate all these pointless "matchmaking" threads? Nobody understands us like our own type.
I don't know about you, but anyone too similar to me would probably drive me nuts very quickly.

[coffeezombie]

I don't know about you, but anyone too similar to me would probably drive me nuts very quickly.

You hang out on this board enough and seem to enjoy it. Why would it be any different in bed?

[melancholeric]

You hang out on this board enough and seem to enjoy it. Why would it be any different in bed?
The moment I've had enough of you folks (happens everyday), I use this 'close window' feature. I don't think I can do that in a relationship.

I mean I can close a window if it gets too cold or something, but it's not quite the same.

[MacGuffin]

Why doesn't everyone realize INTPs should just be with INTPs and eliminate all these pointless "matchmaking" threads? Nobody understands us like our own type.
Wasn't this a Seinfeld episode?

[coffeezombie]

The moment I've had enough of you folks (happens everyday), I use this 'close window' feature. I don't think I can do that in a relationship.


Yeah, but the question is, how long would you be able to endure an INFP board, or even worse, an ESFJ board? If I have to spend my life with anybody, which both my feelings of occasional loneliness and desire for sexuality seem to indicate, I'd rather spend it with someone that I feel I have a lot in common with. It's too much work dealing with people with radically different personalities than mine for me to consider a serious relationship like that anymore.

[melancholeric]

Yeah, but the question is, how long would you be able to endure an INFP board, or even worse, an ESFJ board? If I have to spend my life with anybody, which both my feelings of occasional loneliness and desire for sexuality seem to indicate, I'd rather spend it with someone that I feel I have a lot in common with. It's too much work dealing with people with radically different personalities than mine for me to consider a serious relationship like that anymore.
But having too much in common? I don't think opposites attract, but... I hate looking in the mirror. Sure there's a lot of variation within any given type ( and that's why I don't think the MBTI should even be used for this ), but there's an awful lot of similarities. That could be a problem in the long run.

Those radical differences could be helpful for personal growth, developing the shadow and all that. Or practical purposes. Marrying an ISTJ could be useful for keeping my kitchen clean, for instance. Etc.



On the other hand, wouldn't that "driving me nuts" thing actually be an improvement? Hell, I'm all for it. It's not like I could get any worse...

"It's only after we've lost everything when we're free to do anything."
"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

[coffeezombie]

Those radical differences could be helpful for personal growth, developing the shadow and all that. Or practical purposes. Marrying an ISTJ could be useful for keeping my kitchen clean, for instance. Etc.


LOL I'm assuming you're facetious about looking for a housecleaner in a mate. Seriously, perhaps I'm just stubborn about not wanting to compromise. I feel like I'd have to compromise the least about things with another INTP. Other INTPs might enjoy the process of exploring another person's different personality much more.

[CreativeChaos]

Whoa, this sounds just like the INFJ I knew and loved. She was easily the least decisive person I knew - but when she made up her mind, it was made up. At least, until something happened to cause her to question the validity of her choice. Getting her to change her mind was like Chinese water torture, only with drops of love, kindness, and patience instead of - you know. Water.

CreativeChaos: if you think that the bickering and sniping on this forum is stupid, well: I do too, good-lookin'. I admit that I am not guilt-free though.

From my experience, I think that NFs can easily be mind-mates of NTs, and NTs soulmates of NFs. Both parties just have to get their heads out of their asses. Why on earth would you engage in "swordplay" with a gentle soul? Um, the universe is such an exciting thing to discuss and explore jointly without fear of recrimination. . . I'm not advocating beating the swords into plowshares: save 'em for ENTPs!

I was never anything less than fascinated by "my" INFJ's "stupid" approach to life. I was mortified when I suggested that the "feelings" she had about people might come solely from her subconscious - she replied that there was a deeper mystery to it, be it Fate, God, or something. I was deeply ashamed that I had failed to honour her correctly in that moment. It didn't matter that I'm an agnostic and a skeptic first and foremost: I was tactless towards someone I valued highly and loved surpassingly. She was more important than a coherent understanding of how human perception works. . .

I dunno. I loved the "magic" she introduced into my clinical world. In a world where everything can be carved up according to logical principles, she allowed me to open up to the possibility of finding meaning.

I miss her so much it hurts, sometimes. I would drag myself across broken glass to have her back, even if only as a friend.

Ooooo.... Wow, Biff! You are really smitten. "I would drag myself across broken glass to have her back". Gee! That is very poetic. I'm sorry you miss her so badly though. I think if she saw your post, her heart would soften and she'd come back to you. That post would soften any womens heart. "I failed to honour her correctly at the moment". Gee! :wub: I love your post. Very nice Biff!

That first paragraph is my INFJ friend exactly. Chinese water torture. Haa! :D Yep! Frankly, unless the choice the INFJ makes is destructive, I would give up trying to change thier mind at all. Heh! I have done the slow kind water drops on my friend for years, and his beliefs are still the same. I have moved him slowly towards the agnositc, "who knows", frame of mind, though. But I have only respected his beliefs and then shared mine. He has had the tendency to gravitate a little towards me. Mostly when talking it seems as if we are in agreement when we are not. It's only because neither of us wants to get into a conflict. But we both know where each other stands. He is the dearest person in the world to me. (Second to my ISTJ ex, who is a great friend to me now). It was through him that I "confirmed" that there is such a thing as NF and that we were it.

So, for you INTPs who have not known an INTP, I would suggest trying to meet one. I would think that to know another INTP irl, would be a "revelating" experience. It was for me, knowing at least one other person close to my type. Wish I could meet an INFP.

And, when I said "stupid", I hope you know, Biff, I wasn't trying to be insulting. As I stated it's a different kind of "stupid". A lack of diplomacy (not you Geoff ;) and of course others), perhaps. I'm not sure how to put it.

And "magic" really appeals to me. Not the typical magician, but "mysterious" and "wonder" and "awe". I LOVE those emotions, or state of being. So does my INFJ friend. But we are rather different in some important ways. So...

I'll stop blabbing. :D

[CreativeChaos]

You hang out on this board enough and seem to enjoy it. Why would it be any different in bed?

That's because the "sparks" would not be there. Only 15% of marraiges are between people who are the same type. My INFJ male friend is strictly platanic. I couldn't "force" a sexual feeling for him if I tried. We are the best of friends, though. Same types are wonderful friends. But not lovers.

[misutii]

That's because the "sparks" would not be there. Only 15% of marraiges are between people who are the same type. My INFJ male friend is strictly platanic. I couldn't "force" a sexual feeling for him if I tried. We are the best of friends, though. Same types are wonderful friends. But not lovers.

i think it's all based on the individual, an intp type 9 soc would never even begin to understand let alone like me and i think that would be mutual

[Vagabond]

Sparks... heh. I tried the NT-NF thing. It was okay, there was a somewhat connection with a somewhat friendship and a somewhat attraction, but in the end, we wanted different things. I didn't feel like I had enough of my independance, he didn't feel like I was expressive enough of my feelings - there were problems. When the relationship ended, I was relieved and felt drained, needed time to myself to regain my energy. He was an INFP and *trying* to give me my space, still it was not good for either of us. It was unfair to both. INTP/INTP relationships are more likely to work in my opinion, because they don't misunderstand your lack of emotional expression as lack of feelings, or your need to hide in your "cave" as rejection - they do it too. I could have INFP friends, because that does not imply sharing my life with them (my ex boyfriend was my friend to start with anyway), but to have a relationship with one again? I don't know... I don't like either having my energy drained or hurting people's feelings.

[kooliganka]

Why doesn't everyone realize INTPs should just be with INTPs and eliminate all these pointless "matchmaking" threads? Nobody understands us like our own type.

Well, if it's understanding you're after, INTP would be the logical choice. But there are other components to relationships too. It depends on what you're looking for. Personally, the more I am able to understand, the less important it is for me to be understood.

[Eileen]

Why doesn't everyone realize INTPs should just be with INTPs and eliminate all these pointless "matchmaking" threads? Nobody understands us like our own type.

Because it's probably not true. (which is not to say that I think there need to be so many 'matchmaking' threads)

It is true that you can probably RELATE to other INTPs the best and that you think in a similar way (which doesn't mean in an identical way--the process, not the outcomes, are what you have in common). So in that sense, you do understand each other best.

However, I think that there's something to be said for the understanding acquired through examining differences between personalities. I do not experience the world like an INTP; I experience it like an INFJ. But I love the hell out of an INTP, and I care deeply about knowing and understanding him. So I try to understand, through type theory largely, how he experiences the world in contrast to how I experience the world. There are still things that I find enigmatic, and I'm sure there are times when I am not easy to understand either--but the exercise of contrast, trying to understand something by noting its differences, can be profound too... maybe moreso (sometimes) than the automatic "Oh, you think like me" connection. If you automatically think like someone else and recognize that, you don't necessarily have to think about or analyze it. If you don't and you want to, you HAVE to use your brain and heart to figure it out.

Also, if you're with someone who's just like you, you don't have to stretch yourself and really grow--which some might find delightful, but I find very boring and pointless.

[CreativeChaos]

Because it's probably not true. (which is not to say that I think there need to be so many 'matchmaking' threads)

It is true that you can probably RELATE to other INTPs the best and that you think in a similar way (which doesn't mean in an identical way--the process, not the outcomes, are what you have in common). So in that sense, you do understand each other best.

However, I think that there's something to be said for the understanding acquired through examining differences between personalities. I do not experience the world like an INTP; I experience it like an INFJ. But I love the hell out of an INTP, and I care deeply about knowing and understanding him. So I try to understand, through type theory largely, how he experiences the world in contrast to how I experience the world. There are still things that I find enigmatic, and I'm sure there are times when I am not easy to understand either--but the exercise of contrast, trying to understand something by noting its differences, can be profound too... maybe moreso (sometimes) than the automatic "Oh, you think like me" connection. If you automatically think like someone else and recognize that, you don't necessarily have to think about or analyze it. If you don't and you want to, you HAVE to use your brain and heart to figure it out.

Also, if you're with someone who's just like you, you don't have to stretch yourself and really grow--which some might find delightful, but I find very boring and pointless.

BRAVO!!!!! Eileen!!!! Well said!!!! :cheers:

[spirilis]

Also, if you're with someone who's just like you, you don't have to stretch yourself and really grow--which some might find delightful, but I find very boring and pointless.
I think this is the most important point anybody should get out of any of this.

[Vagabond]

I think this is the most important point anybody should get out of any of this. Hmm. Being around someone the same type as you, makes you see flaws that you failed to notice in yourself, and sometimes the level to which you may evolve certain characteristics of yours... that's growing to me. You need to get healthy in the traits you already have before you expand to more 'alien' traits.

[Architectonic]

Why doesn't everyone realize INTPs should just be with INTPs and eliminate all these pointless "matchmaking" threads? Nobody understands us like our own type.

So, I'd presume you are married to an INTP then? :whistle:

[darlets]

standing up
"Hi my names darlets and I'm a INFJholic, INFJ rock, just wish I could stop unwitting trampling across their hearts"

But seriously playing with different types is fun. It helps you grow and sure I run back to my NT friends as a safety house from time to time but..... personal growth is good.

Dating an INFJ the underlying feeling was a sense of curiousity about the differences and a sense of familarity about the similarities.

I shared a house with an INTJ and that was close enough mirror for my liking, some of it was good but I've got all the INT? any household needs.

I did have a point when I started this ramble but it seems to have disappeared.

[spirilis]

Hmm. Being around someone the same type as you, makes you see flaws that you failed to notice in yourself, and sometimes the level to which you may evolve certain characteristics of yours... that's growing to me. You need to get healthy in the traits you already have before you expand to more 'alien' traits.
Do you find it necessary to polish your core traits continually? At what point does it become OK for you to expand into alien traits?

[Eileen]

Hmm. Being around someone the same type as you, makes you see flaws that you failed to notice in yourself, and sometimes the level to which you may evolve certain characteristics of yours... that's growing to me. You need to get healthy in the traits you already have before you expand to more 'alien' traits.

Fair enough... but you don't have to stretch yourself to understand someone else as much in that situation, and I think that it's important to learn to do that--though perhaps not ESSENTIAL because you can have that in other relationships.

That said, I'm not KNOCKING INTP-INTP or INFJ-INFJ relationships. I'm just knocking people who are knocking mixing it up. ;)

[Serotonin]

Knock-knock?
Who's there?
INTP.
INTP who?
I ain't peeing on yer doorstep yet, but I will if you don't open up soon!

Sorry, lamo to the max ;P

[spirilis]

Knock-knock?
Who's there?
INTP.
INTP who?
I ain't peeing on yer doorstep yet, but I will if you don't open up soon!

Sorry, lamo to the max ;P
harrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
+ror story

[Vagabond]

Do you find it necessary to polish your core traits continually? At what point does it become OK for you to expand into alien traits? Continually? Do you think you have reached a healthy enough level within the limits of your type that you are ready enough to expand to your secondary traits in a healthy and non-fixational way? If so, cool. I am not dismissing mixes; I am not even saying that all types are best with their similars... maybe strong Js could not make a relationship that would last, I don't know... to expand into 'alien' traits, I need to stand firmly on my given ground, orelse I will only bring confusion to myself and my mate. And sure I need to understand other types as a way to personal growth, I have said so like a million types; but in the end of the day, I need the person closest to me to be someone with whom I don't need to try too much. I'm not dismissing anything, maybe it works for other people... I just think that understanding and communication are the most essential traits in a relationship. That's my personal, subjective opinion, not a rule.

[Biff_Loman]

Ooooo.... Wow, Biff! You are really smitten. "I would drag myself across broken glass to have her back". Gee! That is very poetic. I'm sorry you miss her so badly though. I think if she saw your post, her heart would soften and she'd come back to you. That post would soften any womens heart. "I failed to honour her correctly at the moment". Gee! I love your post. Very nice Biff!

Smitten? Completely. I'm still married to someone else, though. I've finally learned why the Elizabethans considered love to be a disease.

I would call it infatuation if I hadn't been friends with this woman since 1998. There hasn't been a moment when I've stopped loving her during this entire time. I can't imagine stopping, although I struggle to let go on a daily basis, for the sake of my marriage.

Heh, I'm up for telling you the whole story any time. I don't think I have told a single soul the entire, unedited version. I always leave something out, depending on the audience. ;-)

[edit] She spent a year in Germany, which she considered to be one of the best periods of her life. So, I started learning German and researching German culture in order to relate to her experience more closely. What wouldn't I do for her? She found that touching. . .

After I decided that I had better stick with my wife, who decided she didn't want to divorce after all, I had suicidal ideations for a some time.

Let's just say that my personal life doesn't exactly fill me with enthusiasm.

[SensEye]

After I decided that I had better stick with my wife, who decided she didn't want to divorce after all, I had suicidal ideations for a some time.

Let's just say that my personal life doesn't exactly fill me with enthusiasm.I don't have much experience with relationships, but this all seems *very* wrong to me. Why is it better to stick with your wife? Are there kids involved? Do you fear the economic impact of divorce?

I don't see how you can deny yourself the potential to find true love. And what's up with your wife? Does she know how you feel? If I found out my significant other had deep feelings for someone besides me, I would show her the door, regardless of how much it hurt me to do so. I would never tolerate being "settled for".

[Star]

I would call it infatuation if I hadn't been friends with this woman since 1998. There hasn't been a moment when I've stopped loving her during this entire time. I can't imagine stopping, although I struggle to let go on a daily basis, for the sake of my marriage.


Oh, I know exactly what you are saying here. I've read some place recently that this is called a triangular relationship, characteristic of some personality disorder or other (I look into them all the time, trying to figure out why I do such things.) The gist of it is, you keep one love in reserve, and it is safe for you to feel for this person because she is out of reach, and can't hurt you (any more than being unreachable hurts); at the same time, if your wife stops caring about you, you'll always have that love for the unreachable person in reserve.

Is that how it is?

Maybe this is a common thing for those of us with our poorly-developed feeling functions.

[Biff_Loman]

Maybe that's what it is.

If so: what a load of crap these feelings really are.


I don't see how you can deny yourself the potential to find true love.

Ain't no such thing, bro'.

[SensEye]

Originally Posted by SensEye
I don't see how you can deny yourself the potential to find true love.

Ain't no such thing, bro'.I tend to disagree, but I confess I have not experienced it myself. I believe I have witnessed it though. In any event, I still can't fathom your strategy, but it's hard to get the gist of the situation from a few discussion forum posts.

[Architectonic]

Ain't no such thing, bro'.

What is your definition of "true love" and what proof do you have that it doesn't exist?

[LostInThoughts]

First I want to thank all of the posters who've contributed to the development of this thread. What a learning experience. Also interesting to learn more about some of your life experiences and relationships.:popcorn:

For my 2-cents in relation to a prototypic INTP (yes, this will be a generalization and need not be criticised for this by the clever posters who constantly remind us what we have to say doesn't apply to everyone, shouldn't be taken as gospel, etc.:horror: ):

On NFs from an INTPs perspective:

Strengths:
1.) kindness, compassion, on smaller matters, forgiveness.
2.) profound insight into the human experience that would fascinate the most intellectually slothful intp among us.
3.) have incredible capacity for love and devotion (please see oral sex thread for more on this)
4.) (limited to wife beaters): will often tolerate being bitch slapped and fall for the old, "But honey, it's only because I love you soooo much...baby, it'll never happen again I swear it..." only to have the cycle repeat itself...

Weaknesses:
1.) I haven't enough clarity on which MBTI groups this applies to, but there is a segment of NF who I do think are ESP/astrology, and "mystical weenies."
2.) on bigger issues, the bioyatches hold a grudge like no other
3.) terrible with conflict and conflict resolution, likely part of the avoidance of the intp penchant for confrontational debate (ironically that's actually a sign of respect from an intp so much of the time).
4.) risk for borderline and histrionic personality traits (when neurotic or more disturbed) - related to abandonment concerns and the isolation required by so many intps (an ex once hated that I prefered to close my home office door as it broke her tenuous sense of connection to yours truly, which was precisely why I needed to have the damn door shut...)


In response to earlier posters:

purple13,
Can't recall what you posted but noted the wisdom/insight in your earlier post.

CC,
Will you please elaborate more on the INFP - INFJ relationship between Fi and Ni as primary functions with regard to how they might be inclined to interact with the Ti of the INTP (please have no hesitations about generalizing)? I will be reading up on the INF website in the duration :reading: (as I believe you recommended, or Eileen if that was your call)...I'm loving to hear more about your command of the subfunctions of the MBTI types. I believe this is far more meaningful than the surface 4-letter label that so often occupies the thread activities here at INTPc. FYI, in my INTP world this is a major compliment, I hope that comes across to you as an NF. Put another way, your clarification helps me to bond so much better with others and I (and my NF relationships) are forever grateful and indebted.

Eileen and Melacholeric,
I strongly support your emphasis on the significance of the shadow (one's own and one's partner's) but have little to no grasp how this manifests relationally. Care to expand on your initial ideas? Can you elaborate on the significance for growth of both the dominant and weakest functions being the other's absolute shadow?

RE: INTP-ENFJ pairing
I've found this type to be very attractive in light of their remarkable capacity to not only relate with everyone, but also to be able to relate with me on an intellectual level. They appear to be profoundly knowledgable about human nature (Fe dominant) and can help complement the Ti of the INTP. Although less interested in organizing all of the material and information shared, which of course I'm terribly interested in, they seem some of the best suited of the types to understand group dynamics. I haven't found them to have the experiential depth of INFs though. At the same time however, perhaps due to their need to be liked by everyone, they seem to be drawn to INTPs to open us up, and like them. Again, I don't know what this is about, but it seems to occur well beyond chance.

I agree with earlier posts that the separateness issue sucks with more clingy ENFJs, that they are subjected to their romantic ideals and tend to triangulate third parties in wierd dynamics that I don't understand, and that their aversion to conflict makes them obnoxiously prone to being passive-aggressive. However, this makes an easy signal that something is wrong and worth exploring.

thesunburnedarttonight,
What's wrong with your ENFJ sister?


Re: Growth:

Vagabond,
I presume you're understanding as a linear process as though you can move from the stage of working on self-issues before moving to the stage of working on self in relation to others-issues. I question the wisdom in this assumption, and wonder if both sets of issues can be better explored in a cyclical manner through the lifespan...

Wheew...Please keep this thread alive as it's a diamond in the rough if you ask me. I anxiously look forward to folks' input!:)

[attila_the_hunny]

Romantically, NTs are a much better match than NFs [for me]. I find that NFs are best as my closest friends, and that we balance out. I was with an NF, but I couldn't handle being "the one." I would always find a way to ruin teh moment by saying something fucked up or abrasive. At least when I do that with an NT, he'll laugh or try to counter me with amused sarcasm.

[Pooja]

(With an NF) I would always find a way to ruin teh moment by saying something fucked up or abrasive..

I do that too! But it isn't (or hope it isn't) a big deal. And it's always said jokingly/sarcastically. I usually can't handle really intense emotional moments, for more than 2 minutes, without feeling the need to f**k it up with an inappropriate joke.

[rawr]

I went out with an ENFP. She also happens to be the only person I've ever had sex with. She drug me out of my shell. Did not work at all, she would whine about doing stupid things all of the time, Id tell her not to do something and she would do it anyway. It wasn't like a "Do the dishes bitch" type of command, but more like. "I have 300 dollars to my name and 200 dollars in bills left to pay so I think im going to buy a plane ticket and complain about being broke to everyone around me because I make bad decisions" type of thing. It ended when she went to a concert in newyork and i found out she cheated on me with some guy she knew off of a forum. She said it was a "joke" and all of the people on the forum were joking. But I came acrost more information that pointed twards it not being a joke, than it being a joke. She would often get frustrated when i was joking around. I tend to be a sarcastic asshole, but it got to her and she coudn't joke back with me. She ALWAYS needed attention too, and frankly I cant do that. I'd rather be alone than have to deal with something like that all of the time.

[LostInThoughts]

Romantically, NTs are a much better match than NFs [for me]. I find that NFs are best as my closest friends, and that we balance out. I was with an NF, but I couldn't handle being "the one." I would always find a way to ruin teh moment by saying something fucked up or abrasive. At least when I do that with an NT, he'll laugh or try to counter me with amused sarcasm.

ath and pooja,

It seems from your posts that you prefer the NT-NT dyad in romantic relationships. I can see this to an extent as any woman who can't hold my attention intellectually hasn't a chance in hell of getting me into the sack.:nerd: Well, unless she's willing to put out...:rocker:

I've found my attraction can grow with enhanced intellectual stimulation and enlightenment from a woman's aptitudes, yet I have enjoyed the romantic aspect of dating NFs as they seem to be better able to add something that I so clearly lack. For example, an ISTJ I dated was even more boring relationally than I. I found that although considerate, hard working, responsible, organized, and such, the relationship lacked chemistry. And I've felt a great deal of chemistry (at least for a time) with NFs.

Is romance and/or chemistry important in your NT-NT dyads, are either enhanced by that temperament match?

Further, do either of you experience sustained chemistry with your past/present NT partners (i.e., in sustained/monogamous/committed relationships)?

Also, although you identify NT-type remarks as spoilers to intimate moments with NFs, do other NTs appreciate the humor in such remarks. FOr example, my NT lady and I are getting all emotionally intimate, I make a joke to prevent becoming "too close" and rather than feel rejected she understands where I'm at and what just happened. Is this anything like your experiences?:)

[LostInThoughts]

I went out with an ENFP. She also happens to be the only person I've ever had sex with. She drug me out of my shell. Did not work at all, she would whine about doing stupid things all of the time, Id tell her not to do something and she would do it anyway. It wasn't like a "Do the dishes bitch" type of command, but more like. "I have 300 dollars to my name and 200 dollars in bills left to pay so I think im going to buy a plane ticket and complain about being broke to everyone around me because I make bad decisions" type of thing. It ended when she went to a concert in newyork and i found out she cheated on me with some guy she knew off of a forum. She said it was a "joke" and all of the people on the forum were joking. But I came acrost more information that pointed twards it not being a joke, than it being a joke. She would often get frustrated when i was joking around. I tend to be a sarcastic asshole, but it got to her and she coudn't joke back with me. She ALWAYS needed attention too, and frankly I cant do that. I'd rather be alone than have to deal with something like that all of the time.


rawr,

Sorry to hear about the burn. :( As delightful as ENFPs can be, a segment can't keep to keep their damned legs closed no matter what the circumstances...:chill:

[LostInThoughts]

Here is a site that is intended to help INF?s determine if they are INFP or INFJ. I have heard from INFPs and INFJs say this is very good and very accurate. I think if you read through this you will get a MUCH better idea of what INFJs AND INFPs are about. It is the most indepth and accurate description I have ever read regarding INFPs and INFJs.

http://members.aol.com/macvjv/INFJorINFP.htm

CreativeChaos:
Thanks for this reference/link. :) I found it interesting not only in light of the INFJ-P issue, but also for the different ways the author emphasizes interpersonal communication. :cheers:

For those wishing to build upon this, the following may be a useful introduction and particuarly relevant for group dynamics on a project (and I believe this model is used fairly frequently in corporate America at least)::reading:

http://www.16types.com/Request.jsp?lView=DynamicPage&Content=BerensInteractionStyles

[Pooja]

ath and pooja,

It seems from your posts that you prefer the NT-NT dyad in romantic relationships. )

not always true

[J.L. des Alpins]

...most sites suggest that NTs are best matched romantically with NFs. However, Personalitypage.com says that people should seek someone with the SAME temperament, but the opposite "other two" letters... What do you guys think?Dear burning sun, for whatever this can be worth to you, here's my input:

One of my wifes is a NF and we are having loads of fun.

One of my other wifes is an SF and she is pressing for divorce.

If personality type has anything to do with it, then I can tell you: I'm much happier with NF than SF.

JL

[Zilal]

I used to be fascinated by a show on Animal Planet called "Breed all about it." Each half-hour episode was about a different breed of dog. I'd always been a cat lover, but being naturally obsessed with categorizing things, I loved to indulge in seeing what was different between the different dog breeds. It made dogs more interesting. And after all, everybody says you love dogs once you get a chance to live with one. I used to ask myself what kind of breed would be best for me, if I were to get a dog. When I realized that the breeds I felt I could live with were the ones who acted most like cats, I gave the whole thing up. I apparently just liked catlike pets, and if that was so, I might as well get a damn cat.

That odd experience is what comes to mind when I think about NT-NT versus NF-NT. I shy away from the idea of having a long-term relationship with another NT because I know we're inclined to remain a bit distant. But I want a relationship... and if that's so, why go halfway? Why not get the real thing, real closeness, deep intimacy, et cetera? So I'm drawn to the *idea* of an NF partner for that reason. To me, that's getting the cat.

But I know it's all theory. I'll end up with someone who shares my intelligence and values and makes me laugh, and I may not even know what type they are. Values supercede type anyway. Maturity does too. My last boyfriend was an extrovert, but he was also 25(!) years older, and far from feeling the need to go out every night, had gotten to where he was quite comfortable just hanging around the house with me.

[cafe]

Not sure I can add much to all this. I married my INTP long before we had any understanding of MBTI. I think we'd been married for nearly ten years when we discovered it. It has been a huge help with what I've considered the biggest sticking point of our relationship: the P/J conflict. The T/F thing has never been a big problem. I suspect it's because we fall along gender stereotype lines on that one.

If, God forbid, I ever found myself on the market again, knowing about MBTI would be a big help in a mate-search. I would definitely look for an NT and an INTP most likely, unless it was something related to one of the functions that had caused me to wind up back on the market.

Lord willing, I will not face such search again. I'm very pleased and content to live with my INTP until one of us kicks the bucket. We have that lucky mix of compatibility and chemistry that people like to call true love, along with an ample dose of commitment for those brief times when we dislike one another.

[LostInThoughts]

Not sure I can add much to all this. I married my INTP long before we had any understanding of MBTI. I think we'd been married for nearly ten years when we discovered it. It has been a huge help with what I've considered the biggest sticking point of our relationship: the P/J conflict. The T/F thing has never been a big problem. I suspect it's because we fall along gender stereotype lines on that one.

If, God forbid, I ever found myself on the market again, knowing about MBTI would be a big help in a mate-search. I would definitely look for an NT and an INTP most likely, unless it was something related to one of the functions that had caused me to wind up back on the market.

Lord willing, I will not face such search again. I'm very pleased and content to live with my INTP until one of us kicks the bucket. We have that lucky mix of compatibility and chemistry that people like to call true love, along with an ample dose of commitment for those brief times when we dislike one another.

cafeaulaitinfj,

You sound very happy together.:)

[htb]

I'll end up with someone who shares my intelligence and values and makes me laugh, and I may not even know what type they are.Your point about wishing for a cat after all, however, indicates that type theory -- more precisely, what psychology type theory describes -- remains important. For all the respective, potential difficulties of an NF or NT significant other (mercurialness, emotional inadvertence) I have to consider a string of girls I passed up in high school and college. Most of them pretty and smart; all of them very nice. But every last one an SJ or an SP, and the compatibility beyond a few dates didn't seem possible -- and not for my sake so much as for theirs. The women with whom I always seem to find sustained mutual interest and attraction are intuitives.

[Zephyrus055]

Keirsey says that INTP-ENFJ are ideal matches because they share abstract communication and their other functions are complementary. He is not saying that this would be the best match concerning conflict resolution, but for complementary and communication reasons.

Personally, I do not think that I want to enter a relationship with an ENFJ. The ENFJs I have met caused me too much trauma from their FLYING Fe. Personally, I prefer INTJs or ENTJs. Although I still keep pursuing ESFJs, grrr.

My psychology teacher from spring semester is INFP, and I got along with her real well. We would get in to some rather interesting discussions. I also actively talk to another INFP at my campus for hours. We even went out to eat a few times. If I were to ever get in to a relationship with a NF, I think it would be an INFP or INFJ.

[Nemesis]

Personally, I do not think that I want to enter a relationship with an ENFJ.
Yes, what a remarkably well founded statement, after all, we ARE the only types with Fe as our main function.

OH WAIT EXCEPT FOR ESFJ'S.

[nottaprettygal]

I'm not sure how well I'd do with an NF. The hyper-sensitivity that many NF's have really bothers me. There's nothing I hate more than having to change around my words in order to not hurt somone's feelings. I enjoy debate for debate's sake, and the NF's I know can't even get involved in a fake confrontation.

I find ENFP's sort of intriging though. The whole idea of childlike idealism and spontaneity appeals to me. I'm not sure how long it would take for that to get on my nerves though.

[charred_heart]

I'm not sure how well I'd do with an NF. The hyper-sensitivity that many NF's have really bothers me. There's nothing I hate more than having to change around my words in order to not hurt somone's feelings. I enjoy debate for debate's sake, and the NF's I know can't even get involved in a fake confrontation.

I find ENFP's sort of intriging though. The whole idea of childlike idealism and spontaneity appeals to me. I'm not sure how long it would take for that to get on my nerves though.I know that ENFJs aren't that sensitive, but they are trip-wired. You find yourself cruising along smoothly and then one day BAM! sullen silence. Adds to the excitement I say :D

When they feel they are wronged, they don't communicate it expecting you to admit to what you have done. Which can be a problem if it's a misunderstanding.

[rubygirl]

My ex-boyfriend was NT, I think it worked pretty well at first because I was attracted to his intellectual side, and his certainty about things, and being INFJ I naturally understand what people are trying to convey a lot of the time, and I actually enjoyed listening to him talk - I think a lot of INTP's value that. Other things didn't work out, and I don't know if I would be interested in going out with an "NT" again - TBH he was the only boyfriend I ever had, so I can't know. Supposedly the INFJ's "pal" is the ENFJ, which makes sense...it's all so confusing! In reality who chooses a relationship based on MBTI type anyway?!? I like to think there is more to it than that, and that when two people really connect they can change themselves and each other and move on from being just two individuals. In such a case, I don't know if personality types even matter.

[sbw]

When they feel they are wronged, they don't communicate it expecting you to admit to what you have done. Which can be a problem if it's a misunderstanding.

thats a bunch of stupid shit, if they really behave like that.

Scott

[charred_heart]

thats a bunch of stupid shit, if they really behave like that.

ScottWell, it's not in everything little thing. One problem is they put too much empasis on words. They feel that you don't appreciate them when you don't say it enough. They are good sports though, but in the end they get starved for that verbal appreciation. The other problem is that if they think you did something really big, they assume it's obvious you know it and won't mention it to you.

[candy]

Sorry if I seem ignorant (I haven't read Keirsey), but it seems that most sites suggest that NTs are best matched romantically with NFs. However, Personalitypage.com says that people should seek someone with the SAME temperament, but the opposite "other two" letters (so INTP-ENTJ). What do you guys think?

If this has already been discussed up the ass, I don't apologize. Just get over yourself and answer the question.
Im a "F" and I only want to be matched to a "T". The only "F" (NF most of the time) i dated were miserable dates: as if we were on the same wave length at first and then suddenly got too complicated with both not able to express our feelings because we were afraid of hurting the other and starting being dishonest, psychoanalysing each other for hours to the point of sickness and jumping to wrong conclusions or i just got the impression I had to turn out "T" to help the relationship being better balanced and got the impression I was the guy and the guy was the girl... Awfull! :banghead:

[candy]

Sorry if I seem ignorant (I haven't read Keirsey), but it seems that most sites suggest that NTs are best matched romantically with NFs. However, Personalitypage.com says that people should seek someone with the SAME temperament, but the opposite "other two" letters (so INTP-ENTJ). What do you guys think?

If this has already been discussed up the ass, I don't apologize. Just get over yourself and answer the question.
Im a "F" and I only want to be matched to a "T". The only "Fs" (NFs most of the time) I dated were miserable dates: as if we were on the same wave length at first and then suddenly got too complicated with both not able to express our feelings because we were afraid of hurting the other and starting being dishonest, psychoanalysing each other for hours to the point of sickness and jumping to wrong conclusions or i just got the impression I had to turn out "T" to help the relationship being better balanced and got the impression I was the guy and the guy was the girl... Awfull! :banghead:
In my point of view, a "T" would bring some balance into the relationship. But I think I'd be better match to a "P" though (Im a "P") or a weak "J"

[candy]

by the way, i hardly stayed friends with thoses guys... "Ts" do it better! :smooch:

[candy]

I ended up marrying an ISFJ and am very happy with her. Some of my wilder theories and abstract ideas are too much for her, but fortunately I have some NT friends with whom I can discuss those. One thing I really love about my ISFJ is ... no drama.

Well, I think I should do that too! Even if a guy doesn't understand my psycho-analysis stuff and don't even like that kind of talk, I can spare thoses conversation for my NFs friends... I'll stop looking for a guy who likes psychology. Maybe that's it!

[Zephyrus055]

Well, I think I should do that too! Even if a guy doesn't understand my psycho-analysis stuff and don't even like that kind of talk, I can spare thoses conversation for my NFs friends... I'll stop looking for a guy who likes psychology. Maybe that's it!
Keirsey splits the interests of NTs in two systems: organismic and mechanical. Organismic systems deal with society such as:

Political science
Psychology
Anthropology Mechanical systems deal with:

Machines + computers
Hard sciences
Math NTs are all interested in systems, but NTs fall in to one of the above categories early in life. Which type of system the NT likes is relative to the individual and not unique to a NT type.

When I was young I fell in love with learning history, and as I grew older I fell in love with philosophy, psychology, politics, anthropology and numerous other topics. Although Keirsey claims that as NTs reach middle age they explore topics in the other system type, I doubt I ever will. Mechanical systems have always driven me up the wall.

Anyway, my point is... I love psychology too! Freud is one of my favorites, and I do not care if the mainstream academics have trouble with his theories. While I see some problems with some of his theories, I largely revere others. Defense mechanisms, his model of the subconsious mind (Id, ego, superego), and dream interpretation all seem like plausible theories to me.

I do not like his theory regarding growth stages though. Sucking stage and the consequences of not maturing from it... Electra complex... I do not buy that part.

[last_caress]

Keirsey splits the interests of NTs in two systems: organismic and mechanical. Organismic systems deal with society such as:

Political science
Psychology
Anthropology Mechanical systems deal with:

Machines + computers
Hard sciences
Math NTs are all interested in systems, but NTs fall in to one of the above categories early in life. Which type of system the NT likes is relative to the individual and not unique to a NT type.

Though arguably correct, the assumption of the fine arts under the heading of 'machines' is... unaesthetic.

[Zephyrus055]

Though arguably correct, the assumption of the fine arts under the heading of 'machines' is... unaesthetic.
Huh? I never mentioned fine arts.

[last_caress]

Huh? I never mentioned fine arts.

Exactly.
I hate to be pedantic, but I hate crap or incomplete dicohtomies more.
If you would have qualified 'mechanical systems' with 'such as', like you did 'organismic systems' I probably wouldn't have taken umbrage.
I would hate to think that you were so naive or careless as to imply by omission and your response, that NT's have no presence/interest in visual art, music and literature, because that's how it looks to me.

[Zephyrus055]

Exactly.
I hate to be pedantic, but I hate crap or incomplete dicohtomies more.
If you would have qualified 'mechanical systems' with 'such as', like you did 'organismic systems' I probably wouldn't have taken umbrage.
I would hate to think that you were so naive or careless as to imply by omission and your response, that NT's have no presence/interest in visual art, music and literature, because that's how it looks to me.
Ok, my bad. My carelessness failed to include "such as" for mechanical systems.

Just because NTs find an intense interest in systems does not mean that they do not like other activities. It is just that these other activities are secondary.

[Mr. Beef]

Exactly.
I hate to be pedantic, but I hate crap or incomplete dicohtomies more.
If you would have qualified 'mechanical systems' with 'such as', like you did 'organismic systems' I probably wouldn't have taken umbrage.
I would hate to think that you were so naive or careless as to imply by omission and your response, that NT's have no presence/interest in visual art, music and literature, because that's how it looks to me.

fine arts should not be included in either category as it is not a logical system. Notice that Keirsey did not say interest, but rather SYSTEM. I'm sure INTPs could be interested in just about anything, but this is merely an explanation of the type of systems they like to explore. In no way does this imply INTPs do not enjoy art. There was no need for imperator to apologize.

[Zephyrus055]

fine arts should not be included in either category as it is not a logical system. Notice that Keirsey did not say interest, but rather SYSTEM. I'm sure INTPs could be interested in just about anything, but this is merely an explanation of the type of systems they like to explore. In no way does this imply INTPs do not enjoy art. There was no need for imperator to apologize.
Thanks for your elaboration :).

I was just being tactful.

[Mr. Beef]

Thanks for your elaboration .

I was just being tactful.

My god man! This is INTPcentral, where truth always comes before tact. Speaketh thy mind.


Slightly divergent, what do you people think about the role of I/E and J/P orientation in system type preference? What, if any, are the effects of this?

[last_caress]

fine arts should not be included in either category as it is not a logical system. Notice that Keirsey did not say interest, but rather SYSTEM. I'm sure INTPs could be interested in just about anything, but this is merely an explanation of the type of systems they like to explore. In no way does this imply INTPs do not enjoy art. There was no need for imperator to apologize.


Keirsey splits the interests of NTs in two systems: organismic and mechanical. Organismic systems deal with society such as...

I don't see that he specified logical systems anywhere, which if he did you might have a valid point.

[Mr. Beef]

I don't see that he specified logical systems anywhere, which if he did you might have a valid point.


As opposed to what, an emotional system? A system by definition logical as it operates according to rules and principles. Clearly things like art do not. They are forms of emotional expression, ruled by feelings/intuition, not logic. I suppose that art can be approached as a logical system, but most people do not approach it this way. You can study the mathematical principles behind art, but art is usually not approached this way and isn't very usefull or interesting as a logical system. Most people interested in art are interested in freeform expression and not in studying logical principles, so I would not include it as a system.

[candy]

Keirsey splits the interests of NTs in two systems: organismic and mechanical. Organismic systems deal with society such as:

Political science
Psychology
Anthropology Mechanical systems deal with:

Machines + computers
Hard sciences
Math NTs are all interested in systems, but NTs fall in to one of the above categories early in life. Which type of system the NT likes is relative to the individual and not unique to a NT type.


Ok, interesting. But I guess that NTs get interested in psychology on an other way than NFs. NTs approch to psychology might be more "mechanical"... <_<

[Mr. Beef]

I would conjecture that Nfs take a more humanitarian approach to psychology whereas NTs take a more analytical and "mechanical" approach. To NTs, the human mind could be considered a system, much like a computer. The NT could be fascinated with it and want to explore its intricacies. The Nf, on the other hand, would be more likely to use psychology as a tool to help others and/or understand people better as "people" and not as objects.

[last_caress]

fine arts should not be included in either category as it is not a logical system. Notice that Keirsey did not say interest, but rather SYSTEM.


As opposed to what, an emotional system? A system by definition logical as it operates according to rules and principles. Clearly things like art do not. They are forms of emotional expression, ruled by feelings/intuition, not logic. I suppose that art can be approached as a logical system, but most people do not approach it this way. You can study the mathematical principles behind art, but art is usually not approached this way and isn't very usefull or interesting as a logical system. Most people interested in art are interested in freeform expression and not in studying logical principles, so I would not include it as a system.

Actually I was waiting for an explanation of the value of making the distinction of 'logical' in terms of systems, since the status of fine arts as systems has never been in doubt to me.
Whether they may or may not benefit from a systematic approach in expression is irrelevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_(music)

On a psychological level as opposed to fundamental physical level (particles, etc. and insofar as we even understand any of these things) everything a human does has it's roots in emotion.
The intellect is a cherry on a large sundae.

[Mr. Beef]

Actually I was waiting for an explanation of the value of making the distinction of 'logical' in terms of systems, since the status of fine arts as systems has never been in doubt to me.
Whether they may or may not benefit from a systematic approach in expression is irrelevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_(music)

On a psychological level as opposed to fundamental physical level (particles, etc. and insofar as we even understand any of these things) everything a human does has it's roots in emotion.
The intellect is a cherry on a large sundae.

I used the term "logical" not to distinguish between a logical system and a different type of system, but rather to emphasize that a system is something that operates on logical principles. While it is clear that everything in the world operates under some sort of logical principles (except scientologists, republicans, democrats and religious fanatics), the fine arts are a form of emotional expression. A person studies things like mathematics, computers and psychology to understand and master their underlying principles. Very rarely do you find someone who wants to study art simply to find out how it works. You don't hear people say "Oh, I was thinking of taking up art so I could discover natural proportions and the mathematical relations of color".Since fine art is almost always used as a form of expression and not as an object of study, it is therefore almost always NOT a system. If you want to get technical, anything can be APPROACHED as a system, but is not necessarily studied systematically, and hence since art is not usually studied systematically it would not be included in a list of commonly-studied systems.

[last_caress]

I used the term "logical" not to distinguish between a logical system and a different type of system, but rather to emphasize that a system is something that operates on logical principles. While it is clear that everything in the world operates under some sort of logical principles (except scientologists, republicans, democrats and religious fanatics), the fine arts are a form of emotional expression. A person studies things like mathematics, computers and psychology to understand and master their underlying principles. Very rarely do you find someone who wants to study art simply to find out how it works. You don't hear people say "Oh, I was thinking of taking up art so I could discover natural proportions and the mathematical relations of color".Since fine art is almost always used as a form of expression and not as an object of study, it is therefore almost always NOT a system. If you want to get technical, anything can be APPROACHED as a system, but is not necessarily studied systematically, and hence since art is not usually studied systematically it would not be included in a list of commonly-studied systems.

Got bias?

Method of expression is irrelevant.

Music Theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory)
Huh?

The fine arts are systems with principles that can be studied and applied.
http://www.juilliard.edu/
http://www.risd.edu/
http://www.mi.edu/

Feel free to step out of the box.

[wondergrl]

Hi guys!
:)

From the one test i took today, i guess i'm INTP even though not every characteristic fit me - I'm not a genius/mathematician/computer freak neither am i emotionless and things on that line. But i really love reading, day dreaming, and especially my privacy.

In my humble opinion and from my quick/incomplete observation ( esp. on this thread. . since i only recently discovered the whole MBTI system thingy and find it very fascinating),
INTP guys probably match well with INFJ ladies while INTP girls might prefer ENTJ guys. Just a guess and/or opinion.

[placid_panic]

the best relationship i was ever involved in was with an enfj. we met on the internet. i can see the abstract communication thing now, that had to have been what initially attracted us to eachother. even now we exchange which would be unintelligible to anyone else. i've always been attracted to people who write poetry as well... i knew nothing about mbti when i met this girl and i was blown away by how completely charming she was. she could walk up to anyone and engage the person effortlessly. i'm the complete opposite, socially inept and quite reticent. she seemed to enjoy the challenge of drawing me out and she melted at the smallest phrase of affection i would offer. she was very interested in my scars, too. she wanted to know how i had made them. once she asked me to cut her but i refused. once, after she had revealed deeply personal details about her life to me, i felt overwhelmed and so i went for a walk. when i came back she wouldn't speak to me. she was obviously very upset. i couldn't understand then but knowing about mbti now makes this a little clearer. i remember that she was adamant about passion, stating that it was a necessity for a fulfilling life. whatever she did was wholehearted. one night while inebriated i confessed to her that i didn't suppose i had any passion. she was very disturbed by that. the next morning she confronted me and i assured her that i did, indeed have passion for life. i still feel guilty about that because i'm not really sure whether i do or even what that means. life is confusing, and i'm not in the clearest state of mind right now. in conclusion, i miss that enfj terribly, even though she gave lackluster head.