Any suggestions for resolving the Zimbabwe crisis?

[Mr.Miagi]

I've been following this story for a number of years now, seeing a how a once fairly prosperous country has managed to basically destroy itself in less than 10 years. However, what has transpired over the last few days in this country has been nothing but diabolical. President Robert Mugabe stood unopposed in run-off election (which he originally lost) and inaugurated himself as the winner and president of Zimbabwe 48 hours after the election, doing so even before the results were announced. The opposition MDC withdrew a couple of days before the election due to the violence and intimidation conducted by Mugabe's government to ensure his victory. Yesterday Mugabe attended an African Union Summit meeting, a meeting where not a single African leader criticized Mugabe for his election campaign. In fact, most African leaders still admire Mugabe as a freedom fighter and liberation hero. All this while his country is left in ruins.

How does one remove such a man from power and get Zimbabwe back on track? When does millitary intervention become a solution for Zimbabwe's woes?

[MacGuffin]

It's Africa.

I just can't seem to care anymore.

[Oso Mocoso]

How does one remove such a man from power and get Zimbabwe back on track? When does millitary intervention become a solution for Zimbabwe's woes?

I'm not sure if you've been following the news, but there's a Presidential election on in the U.S. And they might elect a black guy.

Don't we have more important things to be concerned about than Zimbabwe? That's not even a state. I mean, look, if more than half of Canada was on fire and it looked like it might spread, we'd put the election coverage on hold until we got it put out. Other than that ...

[Mr.Miagi]

It's Africa.

I just can't seem to care anymore.

Fair enough. Other suggestions?

[Mr.Miagi]

I'm not sure if you've been following the news, but there's a Presidential election on in the U.S. And they might elect a black guy.

Don't we have more important things to be concerned about than Zimbabwe? That's not even a state. I mean, look, if more than half of Canada was on fire and it looked like it might spread, we'd put the election coverage on hold until we got it put out. Other than that ...

Hey listen, I'm asking this question out of curiousity and general interest, considering I'm INTP. You think I still care about the US election after that fucking Obama - Clinton horseshit saga? Had enough of it. Zimbabwe is much more interesting thank you.

[firch]

Fair enough. Other suggestions?
:popcorn:

[Limey]

Since his racist land-repatriation (to loyal party members) of farms from white land owners, I would welcome the sight of his children starving and his women lamenting.
If there can be only one, then it shouldn't be Mugabe.

Integrity is a rare thing in Politics, even rarer in African Politics. Even a lot of the Latin American nations seem to have more of their shit together these days and there was a time when they'd go to war over a soccer match.

Even Nelson Mandela had to drop his wife that had stood by him when her "sports team" security entourage started making ethnic killings and brutalizing (Stompi McKetsie[sp?])

[ben from below]

A .30-06 might do the trick.

[zago]

How to resolve it? Stay out and let it resolve itself. That's what I say.

[Oso Mocoso]

How to resolve it? Stay out and let it resolve itself. That's what I say.

Oh, yeah. That's getting back to some hardcore old school American foreign policy. I can get behind that.

[Limey]

Today, his foreign minister said that the British imperialists could go and hang.
I've been hanging all day, in fact, I was Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool
And all shooting some b-ball outside of the school when a couple of guys said were up in no good, Started making trouble in my neighborhood
I got in one little fight and my mom got scared And said you're moving with your auntie and uncle in Zimbabwe.

[stopharian]

I've been following this story for a number of years now, seeing a how a once fairly prosperous country has managed to basically destroy itself in less than 10 years. However, what has transpired over the last few days in this country has been nothing but diabolical. President Robert Mugabe stood unopposed in run-off election (which he originally lost) and inaugurated himself as the winner and president of Zimbabwe 48 hours after the election, doing so even before the results were announced. The opposition MDC withdrew a couple of days before the election due to the violence and intimidation conducted by Mugabe's government to ensure his victory. Yesterday Mugabe attended an African Union Summit meeting, a meeting where not a single African leader criticized Mugabe for his election campaign. In fact, most African leaders still admire Mugabe as a freedom fighter and liberation hero. All this while his country is left in ruins.

How does one remove such a man from power and get Zimbabwe back on track? When does millitary intervention become a solution for Zimbabwe's woes?


Im not discrediting your view, in fact I find the situation in Zimbabwe to be definitely deserving of conversation.

However the African leaders are not doing nothing. More than a few countries including Sierra Leon, Kenya, and South Africa have stated that they will not accept Mugabe's power seizure. They have called for sanctions against Zimbabwe by the wolrd at large and additionally they have introduced a measure at the AU summit to try to force Mugabe to accept a transitional coalition government until things can be worked out similar to what was done to end the violence in Kenya.

In other news Eu countries are calling for sanctions. The German company which supplies all of Zimbabwe's paper for printing Bank notes suspended all shipments to the National bank today at the request of the German Government. The reason why this might be noteworthy, other than the fact that the German Government is taking active steps to sanction Zimbabwe, is that inflation has run at 4,000,000 percent during the last month and Mugabe has been printing money to try and keep up.


none of this information is especially insightful, it was all in the news today....still it is out there for the taking.

[Kameraad Eksteen]

How does one remove such a man from power and get Zimbabwe back on track? When does millitary intervention become a solution for Zimbabwe's woes?

It is his loyal cronies that's the problem, and his loyal army and police force etc. It's rotten all the way down.

Somehow the army remains loyal, even though they have not been paid in more than a year, and most of the troops have been sent home since there are no foods in the camps.

Anyways who cares what the politicians does or say, Anglo American is going ahead with its $400m plan to buid a new mine there.

[RottenApple]

Unfortunately, many of the other African leaders at the AU have not embraced democracy themselves. So it seems somewhat hypocritical for them to criticize Mugabe....hence the silence.

Maybe Africa needs it's own solution, maybe democracy was born out of western culture and will always work best in the west.

Solutions ? I've really given up hope ...to be honest. Solutions don't seem to take place in Africa...only consequences.

[slacker]

A war to unite Sub-Saharan Africa under the banner of South Africa.

[NoahFence]

Arm the people with advanced weaponry and equipment, let nature take its course. They're already getting beaten, raped, and shot...it's not like they'd be starting a civil war. Just finishing one.

I suspect Mugabe's "loyal followers" would have a sudden, drastic change of heart if the people they were bullying started fighting back effectively.

Only violence will solve this, because Mugabe will counter anything else with violence. Sucks, but that's how it goes when you let a tumor grow unchecked for ten years.

[MacGuffin]

Take off, nuke the site from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.

[NoahFence]

Take off, nuke the site from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.

Fuckin' A!

[Limey]

America?

FUCK YEAH!

[djm]

I'm not sure if you've been following the news, but there's a Presidential election on in the U.S. And they might elect a black guy.

Don't we have more important things to be concerned about than Zimbabwe? That's not even a state. I mean, look, if more than half of Canada was on fire and it looked like it might spread, we'd put the election coverage on hold until we got it put out. Other than that ...

Like most people outside the US, I couldn't give a monkeys toss about the whole boring US election saga. Lets face it both parties are practically identical in policy, and both are right wing (in European terms).

Rhodesia / Zimbabwe however is of great concern to me, as ethnic brits are being murdered, victimised and driven out of the country they built. Even the awful Ian Smith managed the economy better than Mugabe, who is a complete disgrace.


It is his loyal cronies that's the problem, and his loyal army and police force etc. It's rotten all the way down.

Mugabe was ready to quit a year ago, but his system will not let him. They are concerned about any repurcussions over the 40,000 people they killed in the 80s to safeguard Zanu PFs power following his rise to power. Mugabe will get immunity, but his henchmen will not. They won't let him retire peacefully.

As for what to do about it, well giving the deported Rhodies their farms back would be a good start. The problem with the land transfer policy (and South Africa has the same issues hence it has been reticent to Africanise the land too quickly) is that culturaly Africans are not arable farmers but hunter gatherers / nomadic herders. When you give them land they tend to sell all the equipment, put cattle on the land, move to town and neglect it. I appreciate that this is a sweeping generalisation, but it what has happened more often than not.

There needs to be a lot of training before land is changed over, or some sort of transfer of ownersip with the existing farmers being retained as farm managers somehow.

Forget the race politics, what matters is that the land starts producing crops and generating income and employment, and food. The fastest way to do this is to reverse the Africanisation process, and let the people that built the farms in the first place go and run them again.

Sadly it is probably beyond that now, hopefully South African government will not go the same way. Altough Aids is more of a concern there. Thankfully the idiot currently president of S Africa is soon to be replaced by his more intelligent heir apparent.

[Karl]

Funny, my feeling is that he should redistributed the land earlier than he did, and that would have prevented some of the problems that came up. Although if people don't use it for farming like you say (honestly I'd never heard that) then that doesn't do much good.

I don't see how the "crisis" in Zimbabwe is that much worse than other African countries. I mean take the post election violence in Kenya. It was mentioned, but it didn't get near as much attention.

[Mr.Miagi]

To the African Union's credit, they successfully resolved the Kenyan crisis (Okay, a 1500 people were killed in between), but there still is a reluctance among African leaders to openly criticize Mugabe, which is pathetic. Maybe because these very same leaders were themselves elected undemocratically. This being said, democracy does not work well in Africa. but Mugabe's system is just plain outright wrong. I call on the West to intervene. Millitary intervention.

[Teonanacatl]

I call on the West to intervene. Millitary intervention.

Even though things are getting pretty bad over there, that sounds like a pretty bad idea to me.

[Oso Mocoso]

Funny, my feeling is that he should redistributed the land earlier than he did, and that would have prevented some of the problems that came up. Although if people don't use it for farming like you say (honestly I'd never heard that) then that doesn't do much good.

Karl, stealing people's property on a large scale never seems to work for governments. In countries where this happens the economy tends to immediately implode.


I don't see how the "crisis" in Zimbabwe is that much worse than other African countries. I mean take the post election violence in Kenya. It was mentioned, but it didn't get near as much attention.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/22/zimbabwe

150,000% inflation rate! Think about that. Chicken costs $15 million dollars per kilogram.

My go-to example for people doing insanely stupid things with their currency used to be Argentina. And I guess it still will be because what's going on in Zimbabwe is just too nutty to be a fair yardstick.

[djm]

Funny, my feeling is that he should redistributed the land earlier than he did, and that would have prevented some of the problems that came up. Although if people don't use it for farming like you say (honestly I'd never heard that) then that doesn't do much good.

I don't see how the "crisis" in Zimbabwe is that much worse than other African countries. I mean take the post election violence in Kenya. It was mentioned, but it didn't get near as much attention.

That's because Kenya was a flash in the pan that only lasted a month and settled down very quickly. Kenya is one of the most stable countries in east Africa, and it owes that in large part to the fact that it did not attempt any land theft. It's most successful industry is floriculture (supplys 80% of the roses in Europe), closely followed by vegetable production, then tea and coffee plantations. The vast majority of farms are either English or dutch africaaner owned. Even cereal farming is well run, with wheat prices in Kenya higher than in Europe.

I will be going to Kenya in November to attend the Hortec trade show (I was meant to go in March but it coincided with the unrest there). Kenya started out relatively poor following decolonisation, but has done very well due to stable and sensible government. Zimbabwe on the other hand has gone from the wealttiest nation in Africa to a complete basket case.

[Oso Mocoso]

I think it all depends on how it's done. If it's done too suddenly, then there will be problems and quite possibly starvation. If the land isn't used well after that, then things will be even worse.

That's part of it.

There's a couple reasons that it doesn't work. The first is that the people who own the land are going to be the wealthy and well educated part of the population. They know how to use it productively. They're also not going to take well to their land being taken away, and as a result they'll probably leave the country and not come back. Also, since the government clearly has no respect for the right to own property, it will ensure that no one invests in that country. Why would any sane company build a factory in a place like that? Goodbye, economy.

And because of this the people who are handed the land by the government will be getting land that is now worth enormously less than what it was worth before, since the supply and demand for land in the country has been so severely transformed. People who would have been willing to buy the land in a country with enforceable property law would not buy land in a country where the government just steals from people. Hence, the value of the land is decreased.

[Karl]

That's part of it.


Um, yeah, I deleted my post (before you replied) because I wanted to redo it. If you don't delete this, I'll respond to it when I do.

[Works]

I think we should be more worried about resolving the impending zombie crisis.

[Oso Mocoso]

I think we should be more worried about resolving the impending zombie crisis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zombie_Survival_Guide

This man has some excellent advice on the topic.

[AllAboutSoul]

Take off, nuke the site from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.

Damn, that's almost exactly what I was gonna say. Nuke it from space, it's the only way to be sure.

It's an awful attitude, but there it is.

And what Noah said.

[M.L.Fay]

...

Thankfully the idiot currently president of S Africa is soon to be replaced by his more intelligent heir apparent.

I am not so sure:

Jacob Zuma:

No formal education, curruption charges, rape charges...

From Wikipedia:"The trial also generated political controversy when Zuma, who headed the National AIDS Council, admitted that he had not used a condom when having sex with the woman who now accuses him of rape, despite knowing that she was HIV-positive. He stated in court that he took a shower to try to reduce his risk of infection, upsetting HIV educators who emphasized that this would do nothing to prevent HIV transmission."

[Kameraad Eksteen]

As for what to do about it, well giving the deported Rhodies their farms back would be a good start. The problem with the land transfer policy (and South Africa has the same issues hence it has been reticent to Africanise the land too quickly) is that culturaly Africans are not arable farmers but hunter gatherers / nomadic herders.

Exactly, and it is ironic that black people here use the Afrikaans word for farmer, "boer" as an derogatory term when referring to whites. It is also ironic that countries like Zambia that accepted the white farmers from Zim are now also exporting food for the first time in decades.

We have learned from what has happened in Zim, and you see a lot of white farmers selling their land to their labourers. The farm is then run as a company with the labourers as shareholders, and it seems to be working well.


I am not so sure:

Jacob Zuma:

No formal education, curruption charges, rape charges...


I don't like his rabble rousing populist leadership style. However I think he is a much better leader than Mbeki. Mbeki, and his cabinet, seems to be in denial about everything, he is in denial about Zimbabwe, HIV, the country's energy needs, crime, xenophobia etc.

[M.L.Fay]

Well, neo-colonialism is a game that's ruthlessly well played by China these days - especially in Africa, and with Zimbabwe being so rich in natural resources and Africa being the corrupt place that it is, and western policies/influences being not as pragmatic as needed - nothing's probably to change for the better.

Whites being in charge/positions of power, in Africa, again, anytime soon - I don't think so.

But yes, China is probably also the counter-agrument to the notion of "why care about Africa". In a geo-political context - which ought to be the context of, for example, the USA and Europe.

[PsiKik]

PsiKik's diabolical ideas

#1) It is acceptable to bribe and corrupt African leaders
in order to secure the natural resources we need from them.
It is unethical to be sure, but more moral than invading them.
China is now a major competitor to these resources and must be fought in a non violent, intelligent way.

To this end I propose establishing an 'office of economic incentives' to
study, design and implement effective bribery and corruption strategies in order to secure these resources.

Zimbabwe would be a good place to start. I suggest offering Mugabe safe haven and immunity from prosecution in return for him stepping down and being replaced by someone we can safely buy.

[Lateralus]

How does one remove such a man from power and get Zimbabwe back on track? When does millitary intervention become a solution for Zimbabwe's woes?
Halt all financial aid to all African nations (except Egypt, perhaps). It's not like that money is used for what it was intended (by Western nations), anyway. Military intervention only treats the symptoms, not the root cause.

[Mr.Miagi]

Halt all financial aid to all African nations (except Egypt, perhaps). It's not like that money is used for what it was intended (by Western nations), anyway. Military intervention only treats the symptoms, not the root cause.

Tell that to China. They don't care.

[djm]

I am not so sure:

Jacob Zuma:

No formal education, curruption charges, rape charges...

From Wikipedia:"The trial also generated political controversy when Zuma, who headed the National AIDS Council, admitted that he had not used a condom when having sex with the woman who now accuses him of rape, despite knowing that she was HIV-positive. He stated in court that he took a shower to try to reduce his risk of infection, upsetting HIV educators who emphasized that this would do nothing to prevent HIV transmission."


I don't like his rabble rousing populist leadership style. However I think he is a much better leader than Mbeki. Mbeki, and his cabinet, seems to be in denial about everything, he is in denial about Zimbabwe, HIV, the country's energy needs, crime, xenophobia etc.

Agree with you on that. Zuma is not exactly wonderful, but he is much better than Mbeki.


We have learned from what has happened in Zim, and you see a lot of white farmers selling their land to their labourers. The farm is then run as a company with the labourers as shareholders, and it seems to be working well.

I think that's a good way forward. Exactly the sort of pragmatic policy never likely to happen under Mugabe.

[stopharian]

Here is an interesting BBC article about land reform in South Africa:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/crossing_continents/7493060.stm

Seems like the the plan By the ANC was to make an attempt at having a fair restoration of land back to blacks who lost their land during colonization and apartheid.

What it seems has happened is what is happening with land reform everywhere (Venezuela, Zimbabwe to name a few) The land is now decimated and abandoned. 1,500 white farmers have been murdered in the last 10 years and South Africa now has a Marxist President who supports Mugabe. Look for things to keep going downhill in the region. I wonder what the World Cup will be like?

[djm]

I wonder what the World Cup will be like?

Moved to Holland most likely.

[Limey]

1. Implement a "scorched earth" policy/procedure
2. ?
3. Profit!

[Corbin]

Take off, nuke the site from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.

Mugabe will just hide on the ship, and kill our robot.

[Millie_(A)TCK]

I say the opposition be armed and the rest of Africa stop being apathetic to Zimbabwe's concerns which is rather difficult considering they have their own issues to deal with but its really the country's surrounding Zimbabwe that can affect change by refusing weapons and luxuries through to Zimbabwe that only enable him.

btw Kenya got considerable attention during its post-election violence, prompting even Condoleeza Rice to visit to help Kofi Anan with the mediations.
It says a lot about the Anglo obsession with Zimbabwe when the Congo where 4 million people have died, the worst war since WW2 got hardly any press for its elections let alone for what occurs there routinely whilst Mugabe coughs there is a BBC reporter there to detail it.

[djm]

It says a lot about the Anglo obsession with Zimbabwe when the Congo where 4 million people have died, the worst war since WW2 got hardly any press for its elections let alone for what occurs there routinely whilst Mugabe coughs there is a BBC reporter there to detail it.

The BBC are not allowed in Zimbabwe tor report anything, reports are made from RSA instead.

As for the congo, it got plenty of coverage as we sent troops there. You can't blame us for the mess in the Congo it was the property of the King of Belgium, not British Empire.

Congo has never been anything other than a mess. Whereas in Zimbabwe there has a transition under Mugabe from Rhodesia, a racist regime which was a stable country that exported food, to Zimababwe, an equally racist regime that is in economic freefall and can not feed itself. A great number of ethically British people have been murdered and forced out of their homes in Zimbabwe, so it's only natural that it should get plenty of attention here in England.

[Ferrus]

Also, Mugabe does provide a good focus for media attention as certain crackpot dictators do. Listening to him rant whilst his people die makes good copy.

[firch]

There is no cholera in Zimbabwe.
http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7777178.stm

[Zephyrus055]

Well, to solve the problem you would need to first remove Mugabe by force. But atm America doesn't give a shit because its forces are entangled at the moment, hell we haven't removed Chavez yet. In fact, I can't think of any Western nation that would be willing to deploy forces to Zimbabwe to remove Mugabe right now, for various reasons.

[walfin]

I say the opposition be armed

And make the fighting bloodier, right.

Just leave it for now and see if Morgan Tsvangirai can get anything done in the next few years. Foreign intervention's not gonna solve anything. The only foreign intervention I'd support in Africa is perhaps Botswana intervening in other African countries, but they have problems of their own so that's not quite likely.